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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,034
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Darksworm

    Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.

    TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system.  Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.

    Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.

    Oh *sigh* And that is why when discussing the trinity system, we speak of interdependence and playstyle, while the other side of the argument is every character can do everything. But it does involve the combat system and how it is implemented, just a different aspect of it from the "action vs traditional" debates. So yeah, it is understood.

    No, it doesn't.  The Combat System has NOTHING to do with whether or not you have Trinity or Not.  The only thing that changes, is encounter designs.  You design based on how the group would conceivably engage the encounter.  GW2 can add in a Healer and Tank and guess what, nothing about their combat system would need to be changed - literally.  However, the encounter design in the game would need to be revamped across the board to accommodate it, since the content is now designed for the lack of those roles.

    That's how you balance damage, healing. It's how you design which encounters go where (i.e. you don't make it a full zone of single pulls, you want mobs that come as a UNIT to let AoE damage classes contribute more, or give CC classes an opportunity to contribute more).

    But Trinity or No Trinity has nothing to do with the combat system.  The Taunt Mechanic that Tank Classes have do not define a combat system.  Even in Non-Trinity Games like GW2 you have classes which can get and hold threat off of full-bore DPSers.

    What Trinity or NO TRINITY affects most is encounter design and how GROUPS play is structured.

    It's a way to structure groups, delegate responsibilities in groups, and design & balance content.

    So, I don't understand why people keep referring to Trinity as a combat system.  It has nothing to do with the actual combat system, and the combat system doesn't have to be designed based on the trinity being there.  Dodge isn't in GW2 solely because there are no healers.  Lol.  Even in Trinity Games, classes have been given Self Heals, Damage Prevents, or Damage Absorbs so even that has really not much to do with Trinity, IMO.  DPS classes could also Rez in Trinity Games (Necromancers in EQ, EQ2; Warlocks in WoW, etc.).  UTILITY is how you differentiate DPS classes outside of their main roles (doing damage) and give reason to prefer one over another in certain situations (theoretically; some games got the balance wrong on utility, as is usually prone to happening).

    What people in games like GW2 want is a game full of Hybrid classes, which makes sense because most of these people care more about PvP than the average MMORPG player - especially those that tend to dislike the newer games.  Yes, that's a great idea for a PvP-focused MOBA because those games are balanced against a PvP system, tend to feature very fast shallow & solo-oriented leveling experienced , and that utility is great for PvP.  However, it's a HORRIBLE idea for a PvE game.

    While "Take the Player, not the Class" is often a novel idea; sometimes it isn't and shouldn't be that cut and dry.

     

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat.  This is actually less strategic and less difficult.

    The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.

    That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many.  Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly.  It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.

    These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.

    Triple Wurm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgeSlob-x3w

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

    Vinewrath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXBVPKcKzs

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,034
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?

    But instances are evil and kill the community, right?

    Oops... image

    Zerging in EQ Raids didn't work in PoP or otherwise.  Your guild had to be organized otherwise your tanks died and then your DPS and Healers got Summoned one by one and killed.

    Did you ever raid in a competitive guild in EQ?

    You couldn't even Zerg PoTime.  PoTime didn't really get "easy" until OoW came out and people got gear form there because half the guilds in the game were too incompetent to beat Plane of Earth to get keyed.

    In GoD the game was seriously challenging and Uqua on release was completely overtuned to the point that some guilds quit.  That's how hard it was.  I think there was one guild that beat Uqua before it was nerfed, and only a handful beat Tacvi before OoW launched.

    A lot of groups couldn't even get past Vxed and Tipt without carries because they either weren't good enough or their gear was too bad to get through it (didn't even have Elemental sets).

    Even before PoP, with Dragons like Gorenaire and Severilous, those MOBs required you to be under their belly to damage them and they did AoE Fears and such with very large ranges.  It was incredibly hard to zerg them.  The game mechanics and encounter designs were very punishing to people who tried to employ those tactics.  That is why a lot of people didn't even try to PUG them when they were up.

    EQ had a ton of Open World Raid zones before GoD.  Zones like Plane of Time and Elemental Planes were not instanced.  They added instancing in GoD going forwards because it was good for Quality of Life in the game.  Guilds got tired of being locked out of Raids because some other guild was killing it on European Time on Spawn, and their players didn't want to pull All nighters in the boss room waiting for it to spawn.  There were a lot of high profile disputes over open world Raid Bosses (Emp Ssra, AHR, etc.).  One time a GM put up a timer in the zone and anyone from our guild or the other guild who didn't Gate out was banned on site because they were tired of trying to mediate the situation (Guild KSing and Training each other trying to get the kill, etc.).

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,034
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat.  This is actually less strategic and less difficult.

    The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.

    That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many.  Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly.  It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.

    These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.

    Triple Wurm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgeSlob-x3w

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

    Vinewrath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXBVPKcKzs

    All of Guild Wars 2 Dungeons are like that.  I can log in right now and Twitch Stream some and it wouldn't be much different.  They're all like that.

    Also, you're making it seem like WoW is the only Trinity-based MMORPG out there, when there are many.  Most people don't notice that in WoW because that game is a complete raid grind at this point.  A lot of people don't really do much grouping for instance/dungeons and when they do they're compete faceroll at this point in the game as the heroics are designed for players with iLevel 610 or so average across their gear.  I haven't played WoW in months and I'm i660+ there.  The DPS players (even tanks and healers) brings completely overpowers anything but the Challenge Mode dungeon which scales your gear down.

     

    Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure you have never done a Challenge Mode dungeon in WoW because that generalization you wrote is completely asinine compared to what's required to complete them.  If you tried doing what you wrote, you probably wouldn't even get past the second trash pack.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    saying the trinity is superior merely implies that the person can't think for themselves. It's a confined mode of play used for people who can't actually collaborate with other players and self sacrifice for the benefit of the group. It seems perfect for the individual who plays a more open gamestyle then claims it's nothing but dps, but to say it's actually better is simply false.  The forced trinity guides people into a direction that limits the need for a player to think, communicate, and actually try to accomplish the task at hand.

    Tell me this; What actually sounds more like a game?  

    1) you stand at a fork in the road, and there are three paths you can choose from. Which do you take?

    or

    2) you stand at a fork in the road, and you are wearing a blue shirt so you take the road with the blue line down it. 

    notice the lack of a question mark at the end of 2?

    If those were the only choices in the game, you'd have a point. They aren't the only choices.

    When I work on games I'm a designer working alongside programmers and artists.  The fact that we each have specialized roles doesn't mean nobody dips into other roles.  It also doesn't remove the challenge of making a game.  It just means the challenging decisions are specifically related to each worker's discipline, rather than the other set of decisions which would exist if we were a random mob of generalists (which really wouldn't work well.) 

    Or was your example meant to illustrate exactly that trait of specialist vs. generalist systems?

    1. In specialist (trinity) games, you choose a specialization (a road to go down.)
    2. In generalist games, there is only one road.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    I didn't read passed the first page cause this ^

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,143

    My problem with non trinity or lack of defined roles is that I don't feel any different than anyone else. If everyone else can basically do what I can do, than how important am I? Class defined roles adds a sense of pride to your character and sets you apart from everyone else. In fact, games like Shadowbane, DAoC and CoH/CoV were probably some of the best designed games in terms of class variation while still utilizing the trinity system. Games where everyone does DPS and has self heals just turn me off in regards of traditional RPG elements.

    I also enjoy the alternative method more associated with sandbox style games known as skill based class systems, such as UO, AC, Anarchy Online and Darkfall. Where players are given complete control in a very wide variety of skills.

    Then you have games like SWG which allowed you to dabble in a multitude of defined class trees or focus on 2 or 3.

    GW2's class system is basically still a restricted class role without the trinity which is probably the worst setup currently on the market. If you aren't going to use a trinity system, no problem. Just don't use a class restricted system associated with such trinity style games.

     

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat.  This is actually less strategic and less difficult.

    The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.

    That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many.  Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly.  It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.

    These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.

    Triple Wurm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgeSlob-x3w

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

    Vinewrath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXBVPKcKzs

    All of Guild Wars 2 Dungeons are like that.  I can log in right now and Twitch Stream some and it wouldn't be much different.  They're all like that.

    Also, you're making it seem like WoW is the only Trinity-based MMORPG out there, when there are many.  Most people don't notice that in WoW because that game is a complete raid grind at this point.  A lot of people don't really do much grouping for instance/dungeons and when they do they're compete faceroll at this point in the game as the heroics are designed for players with iLevel 610 or so average across their gear.  I haven't played WoW in months and I'm i660+ there.  The DPS players (even tanks and healers) brings completely overpowers anything but the Challenge Mode dungeon which scales your gear down.

     

    Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure you have never done a Challenge Mode dungeon in WoW because that generalization you wrote is completely asinine compared to what's required to complete them.  If you tried doing what you wrote, you probably wouldn't even get past the second trash pack.

    I never mentioned WoW.  It's pretty much standard trinity gameplay in almost every MMO though.

    It's rote memorization of encounters.  Pull boss, position him, hold threat, dps hits him, healer heals.  From dungeon to raid, it's the same thing.  It's a lot more static.

    Even in a game like Tera, which is action combat, and trinity gameplay, it's still the same.

    It really depends on the encounters though, because GW2 dungeons suffer from the zerker meta in dungeons, but newer encounters past these are vastly different.

    Non-trinity gameplay shouldn't be dismissed though, because of one game that did it terribly in their dungeons.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    I didn't read passed the first page cause this ^

    Speaking of "this," collision detection, smart AI, skill-based and turn-based system can all be implemented in a game that also happens to have the trinity system. I think "this" needs to be rethunked a tad. image

    Collision detection negates a good portion of taunt. A smart mob won't waste time attacking the trinity tank because neenerneener spells aren't a threat - enemies that cause damage are. Is there a character skill-based system that uses taunt? That was a seroius question. I don't know. vov  Player skill-based systems often use position, CD and other systems. Turn-based combat also normally rely on prediction and the other systems listed above, and rarely taunt. 

    No one said they can't possibly work in conjunction with trinity. These systems can, however, be used as alternative systems, which is all I stated. But, we know where this is headed. The problem is that I simply can't comprehend your brilliance, right? 

    Changing your name, changing your text color, and then deleting almost your entire post history (holy cow, how long did that take?!?!?!) isn't going to change anything if you're just going to go down the same road in each thread.  

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015

     

    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

     

    My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.

  • Sam_ShakuskySam_Shakusky Member CommonPosts: 15

    It took 300+ posts, but it looks like people on each side of this argument are finally realizing that they're simply starting from two different positions.

    To the pro-trinity, this is about defined roles.

    To the anti-trinity, this is about taunt-like aggro manipulation.

    Can we please get to the constructive part of this debate, now?

    P.S. Of course I'm oversimplifying this, because that's how we're (possibly) gonna get somewhere. All the cross-overs to the "hardcore/punishing game" and the "fast pace/twitch game" topics are actually OFF topic.

     

     

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

     

    My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.

    If you want to link a more strategic video of a trinity video, go ahead.  There isn't any zerg in this video.  I don't think you know the difference between zerg and coordination?  As you can see they stack for a reason, to buff others and heal others.  Zerg is mindlessly charging in without coordination, without any strategy or thought.

    edit: My point is, non-trinity gameplay isn't always about zerging.  It requires strategy too, but only if the encounters are designed right.  Sadly, GW2 dungeons were designed very badly, and people still think this is how all non-trinity combat is.

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.

    So maybe you should actually play GW2.  And understand how awesome the following video is.  GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfsoL2zp8u4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvk0iMIrNXo&feature=youtu.be

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

    Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q

     

    My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.

    Thats awesome, could you link something "non zergy" so we can proclaim it "zergy" rofl

    Look at this zerg for instance. Its so zergy that its hilarious. Along with half of them being AFK.

    Want more?

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.

    So maybe you should actually play GW2.  And understand how awesome the following video is.  GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfsoL2zp8u4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvk0iMIrNXo&feature=youtu.be

    They cant get it, its like showing master chess player playing chess to someone who has no clue about chess.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430

    I prefer systems with specialization.

    Not too much specialization. But not too little, either.

    Theres a point at which a character is no longer a one trick pony, but not yet a jack of all trades either. When you have quite a couple of possibilities, and quite a bit of complexity to manage, but you're still very different from other characters.

    And thats the point - every class should play very differently. So things that are important in one class should be completely irrelevant in another.

    This automatically leads to some sort of trinity.

    I also think I might prefer the tank/healer/crowdcontrol trinity over the tank/healer/damagedealer trinity. Because in the former, everybody has to work towards the same goal. In the later, damage dealers automatically will be brilliant solists and will have little to do in party except deaggro and will end up blaming the tank and/or the healer when things go wrong.

    One could also add more roles. Maybe mobs hit so hard, without a debuffer no tank can manage the pain ? Or maybe without a buffer, damage output will be rather mediocre.

     

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

    I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.

    So maybe you should actually play GW2.  And understand how awesome the following video is.  GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfsoL2zp8u4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvk0iMIrNXo&feature=youtu.be

    They cant get it, its like showing master chess player playing chess to someone who has no clue about chess.

    I'm sure, in practice, for those who fully understand GW2's professions and the encounters etc. it is a whole lot less random than it looks - and I'm not saying it doesn't take a measure of skill to play at a high level in such a system.

    To me it looks like, and from my experience playing GW2, it feels like while yes you are playing with other people, you are coordinating and playing off of each other's abilities and such etc.

    It never felt like we were actually dependent on each other in any way.

    Like, it really didn't matter who they were or what they were doing - as long as everyone generally knew how to play their class a little bit and understood the encounters at the most basic level - nothing else really mattered.

    It didn't matter I was a Guardian with a 2H sword & 1H Mace + Focus combo specced into Zeal and Radiance (hard to remember now, racking my brain for the right terms!)

    And it didn't matter if that guy was an Elementalist using a staff & fire magic vs. a dagger/focus and Water.

    Really just felt like builds and classes and character didn't matter at all. Which is kind of the point, I know, but because it didn't matter - it didn't matter to me either.

    Where's the fun in that?

    I mean, I like knowing "I'm the tank. I have a defensive spec, and am geared for survival and threat generation. My job is to keep everyone in my party alive, and lead this group at a comfortable pace so that everyone wins."

    "That gal is the healer - she's specced into Holy and has high Spirit - good, should be able to keep her mana up so I can chain pull pretty quickly."

    "That Mage's talents are all over the place - I'm going to have to be pretty clear on what CC I want for each pull and who is assigned to Moon and Circle for each. I'd better keep on eye on his threat and save my Taunt for when he invariably pulls aggro."

    To me - that is interdependence. That is everyone in the group being important - having a role that they must execute in order for all of us to win. If they don't pull their weight, we will all suffer.

    It's a social obligation in my mind - I am not going to tool around and waste these people's time, because I understand that they are people sitting behind a keyboard just like me, they have time that is precious to them, I'm not going to waste it by not doing my best each and every pull.

    That is trinity combat to me.

    That, to me, is the difference and what makes it really stand out vs. non-trinity based party mechanics. 

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    It didn't matter I was a Guardian with a 2H sword & 1H Mace + Focus combo specced into Zeal and Radiance (hard to remember now, racking my brain for the right terms!)

    And it didn't matter if that guy was an Elementalist using a staff & fire magic vs. a dagger/focus and Water.

    Really just felt like builds and classes and character didn't matter at all. Which is kind of the point, I know, but because it didn't matter - it didn't matter to me either.

    Where's the fun in that? 

    You said, there is many spec you should use.  But really there is only one best spec for every situation.

    If you actually take a look at those video I linked.  There is a reason for every button they pressed.  Every weapon or skill they used have a reason.  Every trait they use have a reason.  Because that's the best way to do things.

    To me the mentality between GW2 dungeon and other mmorpg is quite different.

    In other mmorpg, you just try to "beat" the dungeon.  In GW2, you try to do the dungeon as fast and as smooth as possible.  Partially because people have been running the same dungeon for eternity.

    Usually people in other mmorpg move onto raids once they finished dungeon.  But GW2 dont' have that. So those dungeon crawler just keep repeating the same dungeon over and over again.

    That's not to say I dislike the system in other mmorpg.  I love raiding in other mmorpg, and find it very interesting and techincal.  But if you only compare 5 man dungeon, I find GW2 far superior.

    And the good thing about not depending on other people is you can actually solo those dungeon.  If you really think those people are just using random skills.  Why don't you try to solo AC yourself. Or try to beat the world record for 5 man speed run.  You should have an account anyway and you dont' need to pay any money.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,649
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

    I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.

    So maybe you should actually play GW2.  And understand how awesome the following video is.  GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfsoL2zp8u4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvk0iMIrNXo&feature=youtu.be

    They cant get it, its like showing master chess player playing chess to someone who has no clue about chess.

    I'm sure, in practice, for those who fully understand GW2's professions and the encounters etc. it is a whole lot less random than it looks - and I'm not saying it doesn't take a measure of skill to play at a high level in such a system.

    To me it looks like, and from my experience playing GW2, it feels like while yes you are playing with other people, you are coordinating and playing off of each other's abilities and such etc.

    It never felt like we were actually dependent on each other in any way.

    Like, it really didn't matter who they were or what they were doing - as long as everyone generally knew how to play their class a little bit and understood the encounters at the most basic level - nothing else really mattered.

    It didn't matter I was a Guardian with a 2H sword & 1H Mace + Focus combo specced into Zeal and Radiance (hard to remember now, racking my brain for the right terms!)

    And it didn't matter if that guy was an Elementalist using a staff & fire magic vs. a dagger/focus and Water.

    Really just felt like builds and classes and character didn't matter at all. Which is kind of the point, I know, but because it didn't matter - it didn't matter to me either.

    Where's the fun in that?

    I mean, I like knowing "I'm the tank. I have a defensive spec, and am geared for survival and threat generation. My job is to keep everyone in my party alive, and lead this group at a comfortable pace so that everyone wins."

    "That gal is the healer - she's specced into Holy and has high Spirit - good, should be able to keep her mana up so I can chain pull pretty quickly."

    "That Mage's talents are all over the place - I'm going to have to be pretty clear on what CC I want for each pull and who is assigned to Moon and Circle for each. I'd better keep on eye on his threat and save my Taunt for when he invariably pulls aggro."

    To me - that is interdependence. That is everyone in the group being important - having a role that they must execute in order for all of us to win. If they don't pull their weight, we will all suffer.

    It's a social obligation in my mind - I am not going to tool around and waste these people's time, because I understand that they are people sitting behind a keyboard just like me, they have time that is precious to them, I'm not going to waste it by not doing my best each and every pull.

    That is trinity combat to me.

    That, to me, is the difference and what makes it really stand out vs. non-trinity based party mechanics. 

    Actually, there is a huge difference between builds in GW2, and the examples you give above of a traditional mmo setup are almost exactly equivalent to the thought process you would go through in GW2- except the "tanking" is very different and there is a greater degree of fluidity in that you can still achieve to a certain extent without an ideal set up. Another difference is that players can experiment with synergistic group set ups beyond a very strictly defined heal/dps/tank set up.

    I can understand what you mean though in terms of running with pugs- you just work around what you have with like you said not necessarily a strong sense of specific role. But the same can be said for tank&spank games- as long as everyone vaguely knows what to do you can get by.

    To elaborate on my GW2 take on your above examples though, I would go through a similar thought process in spvp. If I am running a shout/bow warrior I know my role, if our mage is glass I know how they are going to play and what "purpose" they serve; in other words depending on the players/classes/builds we would use different strategies to win. There are a greater variety of roles and flexibility to graduate between total support and total burst, but there is still a strong dependence on everyone in a team and an understanding and correct use of build/role.

    It is much more complex than many other games, partly because of the deep customization. But to use your example of an ele, my game will play a hell of a lot different if the ele on my team is using a staff or using daggers.

    ....
  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

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