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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    I've played several FPSes with small but close-knit communities. Players know one another, greet one another when they come online and chat while they're dead etc. - even when they're not in the same clan or in a clan at all.

    You play a lot of these competitive non-MMORPGs like I do, and you notice the people around you. You'll learn the players in your ladder/league. You learn their habits and their tendencies. You might exchange a few words like: "I saw your match against such and such. What a crazy ending.", for example. Or maybe you have something to bitch about with the latest patch. And that's how it starts.

    Whenever someone complains that "the community is gone" or that nobody socializes anymore, I can't help but feel that these people aren't really trying. Such things are not exclusive to MMORPGs, trinity combat or forced grouping. I've made several long lasting friendships by playing games that have/are none of those things.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • shalissarshalissar Member UncommonPosts: 509
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    People zerg stuff in tirnity games.

    Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.

    People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.

    Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.

    But it's just mindless dps and doding during which you can't talk! As opposed to tank spank and whackamole during which you CAN talk because it's that mindless. Yes you designate someone to tank in a certain position, someone to stand behind the target, and someone to sit somewhere safely to heal people. So complex. Oh my god. The mental strain.

    Getting tired of this hag's shrieking, if I wanted to listen to some old broken record I'd phone my mother.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    There is no such thing as "too much DPS".

    image

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • DmyankeeDmyankee Member UncommonPosts: 135

    The Original Holy Trinity was Tank, Heals and Control (EQ1) (everyone dpsed even clerics in (unless in complete heal rotation)  PoP)

    World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS

    Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. Crowd Control via Debuffs or mezzes or sheeping or whatever made the games fun and exciting. 

    Vanguard used a Tank Class Dread Knights longer it was engaged on a boss the less effective the bosses hits were on the Tank, Shamans slowed and debuffed mobs to where their hits were manageable. 

    So yes the holy trinity is the best form in my mind but the third item (DPS) could be changed. 

    image

    Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
    Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,337
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?

    But instances are evil and kill the community, right?

    Oops... image

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    There is no such thing as "too much DPS".

    image

    There were fail mechanics in EQ if you did too much DPS.

    In tacvi for example there were 4 mobs, the only way to kill them, was by killing them all 4 in the exactly same manner.

    So when mob A was at 56% health, mob B, C and D had to be too.

    You split your raid of 54 in 4 and you contiously talked to each other and you had health leaders coordinating mob health acrross teams.

    If some idiot in your raid pushed the wrong ability, or attacked when he shouldn't have, your raid would wipe.

    We didn't zerg stuff like MMO do now.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,337
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS

     

    Actually, World of Warcraft improved it to Tank, Heal, DPS with Control available to all other roles.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?

    But instances are evil and kill the community, right?

    Oops... image

    Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.

    You're off by only a few years...image

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,337
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?

    But instances are evil and kill the community, right?

    Oops... image

    Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.

    You're off by only a few years...image

    Sorry, my EQ memories are far away (with no regrets at all).

    Then it was still a zerg. With the enemy not adapting to the number of attackers, all you have to do is bring numbers, aka zerg it. EQ bosses, before instances, were just massive zergs.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?

    But instances are evil and kill the community, right?

    Oops... image

    Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.

    You're off by only a few years...image

    Sorry, my EQ memories are far away (with no regrets at all).

    Then it was still a zerg. With the enemy not adapting to the number of attackers, all you have to do is bring numbers, aka zerg it. EQ bosses, before instances, were just massive zergs.

    Before Gates of Discord, many mobs were "tank 'n spank", or "sandbags". This is true. They had AE and some other mechnanics, but they didn't have massive amounts of ads or special scripts.

    However, this was at the advent of large scale raiding, at that time, most people had never heard of MMO, let alone played them, let alone participated in a 100 man raid.

     

    After PoP however (and post PoP is the largest majority of the game by far), the raids were the most complex and the hardest raids I have ever been involved in in an MMO.

    Fail in EQ, meant fail, it wiped 54 people, it cost a lot of time, it cost a lot of XP, it was a nailbiting and thrilling experience so many times.

    That's something I have never felt in today's MMO.

    Many of today's MMO feel like playing street fighter and just spamming attacks.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    The Original Holy Trinity was Tank, Heals and Control (EQ1) (everyone dpsed even clerics in (unless in complete heal rotation)  PoP)

    World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS

    Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. Crowd Control via Debuffs or mezzes or sheeping or whatever made the games fun and exciting. 

    Vanguard used a Tank Class Dread Knights longer it was engaged on a boss the less effective the bosses hits were on the Tank, Shamans slowed and debuffed mobs to where their hits were manageable. 

    So yes the holy trinity is the best form in my mind but the third item (DPS) could be changed. 

    If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS

    Actually, World of Warcraft improved it to Tank, Heal, DPS with Control available to all other roles.

    Bazinga!

    The CC was actually required for Vanilla, BC, and parts of Cata. Kind of funny how over the years they spread around the CC love some more, giving more abilities to more classes, but also made it just about completely unnecessary by super-inflating damage, tank survivability, and healing.

    Winning Game Design! image

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    There is no such thing as "too much DPS".

    image

    Normally I would agree with you image

    Unless there are 8 mobs in the raid that have to stay within a 5% hp margin.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You mean just like EQ?

    You see how not intelligent you sound.

    If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.

    Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.

    There is no such thing as "too much DPS".

    image

    Normally I would agree with you image

    Unless there are 8 mobs in the raid that have to stay within a 5% hp margin.

    Did you play an SK?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. 

    If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.

    Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Here is another example for you.

    That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was.  Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".

    Rose-colored glasses.

    Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said.  Not this trade spam you're calling socialization.  That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Here is another example for you.

    That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was.  Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".

    Rose-colored glasses.

    Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said.  Not this trade spam you're calling socialization.  That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.

    It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.

    How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?

    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

  • EndariokEndariok Member UncommonPosts: 12
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Here is another example for you.

    That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was.  Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".

    Rose-colored glasses.

    Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said.  Not this trade spam you're calling socialization.  That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.

    I have to agree with Axehilt here.

    Asheron's Call also had the same form of 'community' and that game had no built in system for trinity type rules.  Community is something that can't be captured in a few screenshots or anecdotal, nostalgia laced musings.  Why does it even matter?  When did this thread turn into trinity = community?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    This, in many ways, is true.

    But it can also be a real deterrent for some players who don't want to be forced to get involved with others.

     

    I'm a bit mixed on this.

    In one sense, being solo friendly and using LFG tools to find PUGs allows me to play MMOs at my own pace, and allows me to pursue my own goals without having to rely (too much) on others.

    Yet at the same time, I was certainly a LOT more involved with the community, within a guild, with real friends on the other side of the screen back in the days before LFG and everything being solo friendly.

    It's not like I couldn't have those things in today's more solo friendly MMO - it's just the old way forced you into it.

    For better, or for worse.

     

    Non-trinity allows you to play with really anyone without having to worry about group comp as much, but trinity also leads to having more/less desired roles so it makes grouping easier for some (tank/heals) and more difficult for others (DPS).

    In games where there is a trinity split, it is usually the DPS that has the easiest time soloing, and in PvP, but they "pay" for that convenience by longer queue times.

    TL;DR - it's a multi-faceted issue

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Did you play an SK?

    Raided as a magician and shaman up through Secrets of Faydwer.

    Then RL got too hectic.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,337
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.

    Real friends aren't forced.

    And also, I made more friends in AC1, people I still meet in real life, than in any other game. AC1 didn't have any of the trinity crap or the forced grouping crap. That was a true community, not a forced one.

    I still raid in WoW, but people raiding with me for most will never become friends. They are acquaintances. Killing video game bosses a few hours a week with me doesn't make someone a friend. Friends come what happens outside the playing, when you know people for more than just their video game character. And for that, you don't need forced grouping or trinity.

     

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. 

    If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.

    Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

    Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. 

    If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.

    Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

    Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.

    Tell that to Kasparov ;)

    Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.

    And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)

    So its lot of resources for very limited return.

    Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.

    That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.

  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 758
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    So yeah, MMOs Bieber caused MMOs michelin star and edit piaf to vanish.

    Ok, have fun in your button mashing action MMO then. When those games get any form of community, let us know.

    But what games have a community now?  There is none.  Because socialization is no longer part of the game.

    It is about the loot.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If you can't help me achieve X item in X time, you are no use to me or us.

    The MMO is no longer about the game, but the itemization of the genre.  They are in essence basically a stretched out ARPG pretending to be an MMO.  There is no world, their is no attachment to anything but the loot attained by their character(s).

     

    The few games that try are some mind numbingly badly implemented and boring (IMO) that they are trying to get this imaginary player-base that doesn't exist for what they are trying to create.

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