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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130

Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

 

This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

 

Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being console combat.

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Comments

  • MrMonolitasMrMonolitas Member UncommonPosts: 252

    That way they simplified everything, you can play what ever you want  in any party composition where in trinity games you have to have basic trinity to be competitive or so. These days no one wants to be dependent on some healer or some tank which they cant find for ages. Its quicker and nobody drags you down. 

    Anyway... i fancy holy trinity myself. Althou, i enjoy both systems

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,341
    I think that Wizard 101's combat style is superior to all trinity combat. Trinity combat is way too dumbed down and simplistic.
     
  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,284

    Action combat does not equal everyone being a DPS class. Even in GW2 where the ignorant like to spout out that everyone is DPS, there are roles. However, these roles don't have to be filled in order to form a group like they do in a trinity system. The issue that GW2 has had is that Berserker gear has been far superior in most forms of content. However, you will find builds that use defensive stats, control options, conditions (dots and debuffs) and boons (aka buffs) in order to help your groups succeed. Most multiplayer actions games/mmos I have played have roles that people can fulfill, but it takes more imagination and/or research in order to understand how these roles work in group settings.

    Trinity will always suffer from the fact that a good majority of people don't like to heal and even less like to tank. Unless you're in a good guild, or play a tank/healer role, getting groups together can take a considerable amount of time. Trinity also suffers when a game is older and a population decreases and it becomes more difficult to fill specific roles in groups. Which can lead to "waiting to have fun".

    I like both systems, I prefer action systems that are done well since there tends to be more chaos on the battlefield. I also prefer to play hybrid roles and those roles seem to flourish more in action based combat as opposed to trinity where being completely specialized tends to be far more optimal.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by albers

    That way they simplified everything, you can play what ever you want  in any party composition where in trinity games you have to have basic trinity to be competitive or so. These days no one wants to be dependent on some healer or some tank which they cant find for ages. Its quicker and nobody drags you down. 

    Anyway... i fancy holy trinity myself. Althou, i enjoy both systems

    That was the argument of the EQNext developer team also, the idea that making groups tailored around a specific make-up where  class roles are clearly defined would be too complex for today's gamers.

    I think it's silly, because the alternative, popular in Korean MMO, is not very fun for me and the communities in those game are non-existent.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

    I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

    Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

    Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

     

    This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

     

    Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being dumber than console combat.

    except its in the trinity based games where you see the worst of the social behaviours, whore metering in particular.  as for talking, that's no better, everyone is an expert and everyone else is a noob.  Non trinity (and you neglected to mention valid cc and buff classes btw which is a big part of it) has different issues to do with people to obsessed with meta builds etc.

    However this all said all games should neither be trinity or non trinity, we need a mix of both, its variety that makes games interesting, not optimal roles and setups.  For me I think games should have tons of skills, horizontal progression, and less obsession on balancing everything.  Take the Eve model, where every ship (read set of skills) has strengths and weaknesses, thats interesting gameplay, not optimal rotation x : 1,2,3,4,3,2,2,stack,proc,2,2,3,4,4,proc,4,4,4...you get the idea.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,559
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?
    ....
  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Member UncommonPosts: 311
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    So the major alternative so far has been...Buzzwords? Sounds about right. The alternatives to the Trinity system have have been chaotic, zergy garbage.

    WAR had collision detection and still had the Trinity. S

    mart AI? In any mmo? Not really.

    Skill-based? Anything takes skill of some form or another. Turn-based also doesn't imply a lack of the Trinity. 

    Lets be honest here, there has yet to be a good alternative to the Tank/DPS-CC/Healer combo. Hell games that don't have a native Trinity system have it crammed in there by the playerbase. We did it in EVE with Incursions. We needed Healers (Logistics Cruisers) DPS (Pirate Faction Battleships) and in 20 and 40 man Incursions we had Tanks (Tank fit battleships that people Anchored to.)

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,858

    It should be superior, it has been around longest. I wonder what would have happened if a system like GW2s had been put in place back in around 2004, if we would have adapted to it and made it our choice. Then, if the holy trinity had been introduced on the newer games of today, it probably would have been dismissed as a silly way to do dungeons, especially after having to wait for your tank and healer for 30 minutes. 

     

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,513

    There is no "good or bad" mechanic, as you put it.  There are just games with different mechanics.  

    Deal with it.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • mikunimanmikuniman Member UncommonPosts: 375
    You must be lonely and bored as you seem to stir up yet another dead horse on this subject. And didn't miss anything I might add (non trinity, action combat suck and Korean mmos are boring) Post's a waste of internet paper.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Sould, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required.

    Yes, in Vindictus, all classes can do damage. That game has replaced the Trinity with action combat, a non-taunt aggro system and gameplay that is far more engaged for all participants involved. In Vindictus, you can chain down your enemy. With some of them, there are different results, depending on where you hit them. I haven't played in a few years, but I remember one battle where part of the team was dedicated to actually crippling the boss, bringing him to his knees with carefully placed javelin shots and then struggling to pull the javelin's chains in different directions to hold the bastard still. 

    If you refuse to acknowledge that the game completely changes once you replace taunt-based aggro with any of several other combat systems, then yes... everything else is just DPS DPS DPS. UO and AC? Just DPS. EVE, just DPS. Wizard 101? Just DPS. ALL PVP EVER... just DPS. 

     

    EDIT: Well said, stayontarget.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    So the major alternative so far has been...Buzzwords? Sounds about right. The alternatives to the Trinity system have have been chaotic, zergy garbage.

    WAR had collision detection and still had the Trinity. S

    mart AI? In any mmo? Not really.

    Skill-based? Anything takes skill of some form or another. Turn-based also doesn't imply a lack of the Trinity. 

    Lets be honest here, there has yet to be a good alternative to the Tank/DPS-CC/Healer combo. Hell games that don't have a native Trinity system have it crammed in there by the playerbase. We did it in EVE with Incursions. We needed Healers (Logistics Cruisers) DPS (Pirate Faction Battleships) and in 20 and 40 man Incursions we had Tanks (Tank fit battleships that people Anchored to.)

    You say EVE has Trinity combat and then cite as your example Incursions, home of Sleeper AI. 

    Added a link to help you out. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc).  The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity.  Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it.  And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff.  I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks.  People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592
    It's not so much the trinity itself as it is simply having designated roles. City of Heroes had like six different roles for people and it worked great.

    <3

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    It's not so much the trinity itself as it is simply having designated roles. City of Heroes had like six different roles for people and it worked great.

    I agree, there is a distinction.  MMOs need people to fill rolls, it doesnt have to be a trinity.  Or the traditional idea of a tank/healer/dps.  It could be tank, buffer, cc'er, healer, single target dps, aoe dps. etc.

    But for groups to be meaningful they HAVE to have rolls.  Even the much beloved EVE online has very distinct rolls that people fill, battleships can't take out frigates to save their life, and vice versa.  Carriers are good at taking out smaller ships but not larger, blah blah.  People play lockdown CC type ships, or cloaking ships, or whatever ships.

     

    This zerg fest not relying on your group mates in any way or very lightly (a couple minor bufs that are passive or something) just creates a bunch of people running around doing the game the way they would a single player game.  Which is sadly how 99/100 mmo's play nowadays.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,185
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

    I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

    Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

    Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

     

    This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

     

    Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being dumber than console combat.

    You do realize that the trinity mechanic is actually simpler than the others? It was designed when mob AI was not as advanced as it is now. I mean - tank - keep agro - healer heal - DPS pew - pew - pew. It is that simple there is no thinking or anything else about it.


  • EladiEladi Member UncommonPosts: 1,124
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

    I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

    Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

    Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

     

    This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

     

    Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being dumber than console combat.

     

     

    Yea.. like the raids of old did ay talking during combat..oh right...   Heal me you M**F*** ,  ye bloody add, you pulled to manny!!!   ADDONS!!.. . Heal!!  , G'da*** Keeo F*** Argo you Ass*** 

    Keep the pink glasses and keep dreaming of old times that never were.   I evolve along with the games and enjoy myself , have fun chats outside of combat and focus during combat as it always bin.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Eladi

    Yea.. like the raids of old did ay talking during combat..oh right...   Heal me you M**F*** ,  ye bloody add, you pulled to manny!!!   ADDONS!!.. . Heal!!  , G'da*** Keeo F*** Argo you Ass*** 

    Keep the pink glasses and keep dreaming of old times that never were.   I evolve along with the games and enjoy myself , have fun chats outside of combat and focus during combat as it always bin.

    I played EQ for years, if you cursed like that, I would have kicked you out personally. Talking like that was not the norm at all.

    To suggest people in trinity games, or even action MMO, curse like that is dishonest. It wouldn't be acceptable in any guild I know. Not in the past, and not now.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,359

    Trinity can coexist perfectly with every class being DPS + a second role (tank or heals).

     

    The trinity gets an instant rejection from me when i cannot play the class that i want because it can only be a tank or a healer in dungeons.

     

    Trinity gameplay should never be about locking specific classes behind single roles, its about having all 3 roles in the game and let YOU, the player, build your own role.

     

    EDIT: i think WoW applied the trinity idea i talk about the best. Every class can be DPS but some can be dedicated tank or healers. It only depends on your personal choice. Add that to a better combat system that is not mindless tank n spank and everything should be fine.





  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652

    A Trinity system offers MORE choice and SUPPORTS the idea of MMO gaming.The optional idea is like forming a Baseball league but allowing players to solo.

    There will always players who try to argue it by saying "that is your idea of a better game,not mine".It is like trying to convince a thief it is better to work for your money than steal it,they will have their reasons.I mean how can you argue with players who like NO thinking,just 1-2 shot everything as fast as possible,that is what they like i guess,but that is a real stretch of the word GAMING.That is more like automated killing,you might as well just let the computer automate the killing for you if it has no interaction and no thinking.

    I remember watching a streamer ,a noob in POE.He was given some free elite gear.Well all he did was ruin around destroying everything with spam clicking,he admitted that he didn't have a clue how to play he was just pressing and killing.Why would he need another player or any Trinity if he can 1 shot everything,no buffs needed,no debuffs,no thinking,heck that dude could have literally played with his eyes closed.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Yeah trinity is the bar to beat for specialization design.  It's not the only way to have specialization which matters, but it has certain traits that make it really hard to beat if you step through the logic:

    • What's the simplest way to communicate victory of an opponnet?  Instant kills.   But this idea gets discarded because combat being decided instantly usually results in really shallow combat.
    • What's the next-simplest way?  A healthbar.  If the enemy runs out of health, you win.  If you run out, you lose.  This typically involves more depth, and when done right can result in a whole lot of depth.
    • What are the simplest specialized roles related to that?  One class makes the bars go down (DPS) the other makes them go up (healing.)
    • What's another specialization for good measure?  One class' bars go down slower (tank) and he causes monsters to attack him. 
    • Arguably Crowd-Control is right there with the tank in terms of abstract roles, but it tends to make combat shallower (turn off mobs to fight them one at a time) so sometimes it's discarded
    You can have very divergent roles like Puzzle Pirates' riggers, sailors, bilgers, etc, but these concepts aren't as close to the molecular simple-as-possible design of the trinity, which is why the trinity is most common.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • EndariokEndariok Member UncommonPosts: 12
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    So the major alternative so far has been...Buzzwords? Sounds about right. The alternatives to the Trinity system have have been chaotic, zergy garbage.

    WAR had collision detection and still had the Trinity. S

    mart AI? In any mmo? Not really.

    Skill-based? Anything takes skill of some form or another. Turn-based also doesn't imply a lack of the Trinity. 

    Lets be honest here, there has yet to be a good alternative to the Tank/DPS-CC/Healer combo. Hell games that don't have a native Trinity system have it crammed in there by the playerbase. We did it in EVE with Incursions. We needed Healers (Logistics Cruisers) DPS (Pirate Faction Battleships) and in 20 and 40 man Incursions we had Tanks (Tank fit battleships that people Anchored to.)

    You say EVE has Trinity combat and then cite as your example Incursions, home of Sleeper AI. 

    Added a link to help you out. 

     

    Hmm, incredulity mixed with sarcasm or genuine ignorance?  I can't really tell.  The fact is that a trinity setup is actually quite good at dealing with Sleeper AI.  Its all there, the tank battleship holds aggro, the healers (logi cruisers or triage carriers) heal and the dps...well, dps.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.

    This is what I miss the most.  It was what made playing RPGs fun to begin with.  The combat was a big piece but it the ability to make decisions on how to build your character over time which was fun.

    I also agree that trying to balance the classes has ruined it to a degree as well.  Sometimes a bad "build" could be good if played well.

    image
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