I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
Did they?
Are you actually saying that the people who didn't like/decried the types of games that have come out in the last few years were the sole people funding these games or were these games funded by people who didn't care/liked them?
My thought is that the "bitter vets" are probably a much smaller demographic than you think in comparison to the millions of people who spend money on these games.
I am perplexed that what I said is not clear.
Of course I don't say that all people playing new MMORPGs are bitter vets. Bitter vets are miniority.
I am just saying that many bitter vets were/are playing new MMORPGs and then complain about how they suck, and then go and play another AAA MMORPG that releaes , then complaing about it, leave, and try another one and so on. All this while it's perfectly clear that those MMORPGs are not designed to have what bitter vets want in first place.
Ok, that makes more sense. Though truth be told, I wonder how many of those bitter vets really did try those games. I'm sure some but not any significant amount.
Maybe just the people who love to complain about things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
But...that would not make the genre dead or dying right?
I so want to call you a name right now...please help me not get banned....
It makes it dying.
Yes. This is a known thing called "the long tail". It's been seen in almost everything. MMOs are no different.
The long tail theory indicates that it will become more and more profitable to cater to smaller and smaller niche audiences... yet the OP is crying about MMOs dieing because he thinks all modern MMOs are the same.... most likely because his particular niche is not being catered to.
Raph Koster: "But there’s even more to it than that. You see, as long as the network as a whole continues to grow, then a rising tide lifts all boats. The tail chunk slowly gets taller and longer. Even niche games start to grow. But if there are no niches — meaning, the games on offer are all pretty similar to one another — then the growth of the network can be capped. In effect, too many DikuMUD clones limits the total population of MMO players. People gravitate to the shiniest best one, and the tail starts to die off. The winner takes all, effectively monopolizing the audience."
That monopoly is effectively WoW. But I think it's stagnated beyond that point and the whole is slowly dropping off. In it's place are some variety of multi-player games taking the flow of players out of the MMO scene.
It's one thing to quote Raph Koster it's another thing to demonstrate you actually understand the long tail theory. Have you really thought it through? The mid section of the graph is actually far more healthy than it was in the 2006 graph shown in Koster's article.
However, for a game to cater to a very small niche in the tail it's also got to be made for a very small amount of money, and that's what most niche players refuse to accept. Most bitter vets are not bitter that there are no niche games aimed at them, they're bitter that no big budget MMOs being made to cater to their little niche.
Nail. On. Head.
I consider myself one of those vets (I was recently shit on for self proclaiming this in the title of a post), but not so much bitter.
Sure, I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I'd love to have tens of millions of dollars spent on a highly polished, content-laden game full of the sandbox greatness that I yearn for.
Do I think that is a reasonable set of expectations for developers and investors? HELL NO.
What my community niche can't really seem to accept is that those games we loved so much were bug-riddled, time-sink laden and often times broken; yet we managed to have a blast anyway because they offered tools to let us create our own content.
If SWG (the apex of a lifetime of gaming, personally speaking, therefore my example) launched today in a modern-day-equivalent state that it was launched as back in '03, we'd shit a BRICK. The battlegrounds were broken, the login system was completely unprepared for player numbers, some classes were essentially useless and/or broken, and the general level of polish was laughable. We'd never get passed all of that today. Our standards have been raised by the very games we lament for the supposed destruction of the genre. That's not even mentioning what the rest of the community would do to the game online, as they entered the genre later, they always had a choice to abandon such ridiculousness for a more polished product.
We, the part of the community that self-identifies as jaded vets, have to start to realize that this is all about money. No one is going to put up the amount of money that would be required to make a game that would satisfy our niche. This is due to the simple fact that WE ARE A NICHE. If you honestly believe that our "2nd Coming" MMO would come along and convert all of these newer (almost) lobby-style MMO game players to our preferred playstyle, YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF.
So what is it going to be? Do we want the features that gave us the freedom to enjoy our games the way we used to, or do we want oodles and oodles of developed content and polish?
We can't have both, not anytime soon.
Just wanted to add, " nice post ! " to this as well. Reality is what it is, and I was beginning to wonder if all the bitter vets lived in some type of alternate reality. I sympathize with your plight, and appreciate the balls it took to admit that.
I think this is the biggest misconception out there today. That some type of old school, hard as hell, non hand holding, punishing for dying, type of MMO would be successful in todays market. In a significant way, to justify the massive expense it would take to make it, that is.
I highly doubt it, but I understand the few that want it. However unless Bill Gates or someone with oodles of cash, decides that bitter MMO vets are deserving of their charity, I just don't see it happening.
As far as MMO's being dead, I really don't care. I can't even be bothered to argue the point anymore. Unless you have some way of changing this, ( ie: billions of dollars burning a hole in your pocket and a perverse desire to piss it all away) then what is the point of discussing it anymore? Games are not a non for profit business. And people will play what they want to play.
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
That last sentence borders on blasphemous, but you're really onto something there.
While it was happening, I felt that the SWG community was largely responsible for the NGE. I spent a lot of time on those forums, and there were a lot of people on there raging for their ideal version of the game. So much drama and shit went down, to look at it, there was no possibly way to make the community as a whole happy. Instead of just asking for the things that needed to be fixed to be fixed, it seemed like 85% of the people on the forums were QQing over the game not being what their ideal vision told them it was.
If I were a suit out to make money, I might have done the same goddamn thing. I might have seen those forums and been like "THIS GAME IS FUCKED MAKE IT LIKE WOW PEOPLE SEEM TO LIKE THAT."
But start talking like this around here, and you might just get crucified...
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I would like to see one person who was there for Ultima online , EQ1 .. waited in queue for WOW release , that doesnt think MMOs are dying right now ?
Hi
Now while actually started with the first release of Meridian 59 and i was technically no there for the launch of WoW as i was playing other MMO´s at the time... I still feel i fit in to your request.
No... I do not think it is dying... It is stabilizing. Like every other genre before it.
This process can be seen as things going stale.. After all it is a lot of finding out what works best on the cost/content scale. But it is in fact the very opposite of dying. This does not in any way disprove the mmo bubble... It is there and it will very much burst but said burst will not be the death of the genre. It is just another stage of evolution.
It is like how for a while EVERYONE was making a FPS... and then EVERYONE was making a racing game... Then EVERYONE was making a explore/craft/survive game and right now the real buzz are survival sandboxes.
Any way.... In short. No MMO´s are not dying... But some styles are less popular right now... Much like how you do not see any FP-freerunning-hyperstyized-but-hardly-any-S being released on a regular basis... No masses of Mirror´s Edge clones does not equasl the death of the FPS genre.
I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
Did they?
Are you actually saying that the people who didn't like/decried the types of games that have come out in the last few years were the sole people funding these games or were these games funded by people who didn't care/liked them?
My thought is that the "bitter vets" are probably a much smaller demographic than you think in comparison to the millions of people who spend money on these games.
I am perplexed that what I said is not clear.
Of course I don't say that all people playing new MMORPGs are bitter vets. Bitter vets are miniority.
I am just saying that many bitter vets were/are playing new MMORPGs and then complain about how they suck, and then go and play another AAA MMORPG that releaes , then complaing about it, leave, and try another one and so on. All this while it's perfectly clear that those MMORPGs are not designed to have what bitter vets want in first place.
Ok, that makes more sense. Though truth be told, I wonder how many of those bitter vets really did try those games. I'm sure some but not any significant amount.
Maybe just the people who love to complain about things.
I think more bitter vets done that than we think.
Most bitter vets that either don't play mmorpg's anymore or just play old mmorpg's are not complaining on the forums/news sites.
Most that complained imho were those that were desperate to find another AAA MMORPG that would suit their taste and were trying those AAA MMORPGs that came out in last years.
Amount of people that were i.e. complaining that Swtor don't have chat-bubbles in Swtor beta was big or how many WoW players was still playing WoW for years while complaining that WoW was best during vanilla/BC or that Blizzard ruined WoW by adding matchaming LFG tool, etc
I think bitter vets playing modern MMOPRGs is a much bigger group than most people think.
Ok, that makes more sense. Though truth be told, I wonder how many of those bitter vets really did try those games. I'm sure some but not any significant amount.
Maybe just the people who love to complain about things.
I currently have installed on my computer:
DDO
EQ
EQ2
ESO
GW2
Rift
Wildstar
I have tried many others, but those are the MMO's I currently have installed. Of those, I have only been drawn to play two of them recently; EQ and EQ2.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
We have been talking about this for years, MMOs changed the sort of game they were years ago to attract more players and yet now they face an uncertain future. Making the game more "accessible" (easymode), "streamlining gameplay" (easymode and tiny world), and F2P (casino pay-to-win) have ended up with a genre that has a more fragile future.
What passes as a MMO is already reliant on teenagers new to gaming replacing those who leave the game. MMOs will survive but by transforming once again into something that is even less like a MMO.
Originally posted by AmarantharIt's one thing to quote Raph Koster it's another thing to demonstrate you actually understand the long tail theory. Have you really thought it through? The mid section of the graph is actually far more healthy than it was in the 2006 graph shown in Koster's article.
However, for a game to cater to a very small niche in the tail it's also got to be made for a very small amount of money, and that's what most niche players refuse to accept. Most bitter vets are not bitter that there are no niche games aimed at them, they're bitter that no big budget MMOs being made to cater to their little niche.
Nail. On. Head.
I consider myself one of those vets (I was recently shit on for self proclaiming this in the title of a post), but not so much bitter.
Sure, I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I'd love to have tens of millions of dollars spent on a highly polished, content-laden game full of the sandbox greatness that I yearn for.
Do I think that is a reasonable set of expectations for developers and investors? HELL NO.
What my community niche can't really seem to accept is that those games we loved so much were bug-riddled, time-sink laden and often times broken; yet we managed to have a blast anyway because they offered tools to let us create our own content.
If SWG (the apex of a lifetime of gaming, personally speaking, therefore my example) launched today in a modern-day-equivalent state that it was launched as back in '03, we'd shit a BRICK. The battlegrounds were broken, the login system was completely unprepared for player numbers, some classes were essentially useless and/or broken, and the general level of polish was laughable. We'd never get passed all of that today. Our standards have been raised by the very games we lament for the supposed destruction of the genre. That's not even mentioning what the rest of the community would do to the game online, as they entered the genre later, they always had a choice to abandon such ridiculousness for a more polished product.
We, the part of the community that self-identifies as jaded vets, have to start to realize that this is all about money. No one is going to put up the amount of money that would be required to make a game that would satisfy our niche. This is due to the simple fact that WE ARE A NICHE. If you honestly believe that our "2nd Coming" MMO would come along and convert all of these newer (almost) lobby-style MMO game players to our preferred playstyle, YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF.
So what is it going to be? Do we want the features that gave us the freedom to enjoy our games the way we used to, or do we want oodles and oodles of developed content and polish?
We can't have both, not anytime soon.
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
Then theres the finance argument that inevitably ensues where people pretend that these games spending 100+ million dollars is somehow a better alternative or a safer investment, and thats bull feces. The return on investment on these games is exponentially lower than niche games historically that have broken away from the formula and done something different.
Its just disappointing to see the same crap being announced every few months when I look back at the last year of launches of the exact same product and see their playerbases continually dwindling away to nothing and that they were unable to captivate enough players to even keep the P2P model.
tldr - I'm a vet that doesn't expect or care for the AAA money thats being thrown at mmos today. Its gone to waste as far as I'm concerned, mostly on marketing and other hype used to polish their proverbial turds.
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
IF all niche gamers wanted the same type of game that might be accurate. Problem is you have small groups that all want different things. They might all come together in threads like this, but that's unification against a common dislike, not a unification wanting the same things. There is a difference. It's an important distinction though, as there are quite a few drastically different backgrounds they're coming from. AC,UO, EQ, SWG, EVE, AO, etc.. were all different games, focusing on different aspects and mechanics. It would be quite hard to make a game that caters to all of these types of players in one offering.
So who gets their game and who doesn't?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
Most old MMORPG players I've heard opinions of or even know personally would like game that could be described as:
"What would happen if you took first-gen MMORPG and you would improve of it's gameplay, graphics and concepts with 15 year better technology and vastly higher budget".
That kind of project would absolutely need three digit budget.
I really doubt most bitter vets would want to grind no-AI mobs and dead-brain farm of resources "chop tree, click next one, chop tree, click next one" like it was in UO.
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
Most old MMORPG players I've heard opinions of or even know personally would like game that could be described as:
"What would happen if you took first-gen MMORPG and you would improve of it's gameplay, graphics and concepts with 15 year better technology and vastly higher budget".
That kind of project would absolutely need three digit budget.
I really doubt most bitter vets would want to grind no-AI mobs and dead-brain farm of resources "chop tree, click next one, chop tree, click next one" like it was in UO.
So yeah. Three digit budget is actually needed.
Its actually not. The tools and tech available allows 1 person to do what any 3 people did even 5 years ago. 10 years ago, people were struggling to do the kind of shit that comes stock with most engines.
I would like to see one person who was there for Ultima online , EQ1 .. waited in queue for WOW release , that doesnt think MMOs are dying right now ?
Hi
Now while actually started with the first release of Meridian 59 and i was technically no there for the launch of WoW as i was playing other MMO´s at the time... I still feel i fit in to your request.
No... I do not think it is dying... It is stabilizing. Like every other genre before it.
This process can be seen as things going stale.. After all it is a lot of finding out what works best on the cost/content scale. But it is in fact the very opposite of dying. This does not in any way disprove the mmo bubble... It is there and it will very much burst but said burst will not be the death of the genre. It is just another stage of evolution.
It is like how for a while EVERYONE was making a FPS... and then EVERYONE was making a racing game... Then EVERYONE was making a explore/craft/survive game and right now the real buzz are survival sandboxes.
Any way.... In short. No MMO´s are not dying... But some styles are less popular right now... Much like how you do not see any FP-freerunning-hyperstyized-but-hardly-any-S being released on a regular basis... No masses of Mirror´s Edge clones does not equasl the death of the FPS genre.
Bubble bursting , dying ...
we are agreeing that some drastic changes are happening.
Will that make future MMOs better ? Definetly yes.
But a MMO takes up to 4 years to produce. To be even taken seriously by investors, first you need a new "future" MMO that is even moderately successful. This will not happen emidiately. Lets give it 2 years of failed projects and 4 years of production. Thats 6 years. Add 1 year to greenlight new AAA MMO based on this moderate sucess indie MMO, plus 4 years of production.
This is 11 years until you see the fruits of this "realigning" bubble burst.
Well having a ton of Indie devs slap the title of MMO on their game,does not make them an actual MMO and MORE importantly does not mean they play like an MMO should.
Imo a Triple A MMO is definitely on stand still mode,we won't see many if ANY quality mmo's for awhile.
Blizzard has just resurrected Sierra Online for the mere sake of making Indie games.I think judging by the quality i have seen,Indie is just another term for budget game design.Blizzard is a business in the market of making money,kick starters and free handouts is the IN THING so Blizzard wants in on it.By allowing anything that looks like a free handout or budget game to go under Sierra instead of Blizzard allows them to sort of escape bad press.
I have seen nothing but really bad unfinished games coming out of the Indie market.Now the whole idea has become so lame,every single developer will use the term "Alpha Access".They will also ALL OF THEM be charging you the same money we used to ONLY pay for finished products.Somehow the community has allowed this debacle to happen,mi assume because they were so bored with every game that came out,now they just buy anything and everything,allowing a terrible bad market to thrive.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
Can you name 20 good MMOs?
How many of those were AAA?
How many were themeparks/WoWclones?
The real story is that MMOs have been creatively dead for a good 11 years now. It started with MEO shifting to LotRO at the last minute, and the deluge of WoW clones hasn't stopped since.
I think the AAA themepark is finally truly dead (though I said that after the massive failures of AoC, SWOTOR, and all the other clones). MMOs might return to their golden age days soon.
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
Most old MMORPG players I've heard opinions of or even know personally would like game that could be described as:
"What would happen if you took first-gen MMORPG and you would improve of it's gameplay, graphics and concepts with 15 year better technology and vastly higher budget".
That kind of project would absolutely need three digit budget.
I really doubt most bitter vets would want to grind no-AI mobs and dead-brain farm of resources "chop tree, click next one, chop tree, click next one" like it was in UO.
So yeah. Three digit budget is actually needed.
Its actually not. The tools and tech available allows 1 person to do what any 3 people did even 5 years ago. 10 years ago, people were struggling to do the kind of shit that comes stock with most engines.
I saw developement tools from 1997 (well from single player rpg, not mmorpg, but still) and I know how powerful modern developent tools can be.
Yet.
Let's assume that you would want to make true spiritual succesor to Ultima Online.
While UO had a lot of player freedom and open world player housing, then aside of that was preety primitive in regards to crafting&gathering and PvE combat&enviroment. Addtionally all crafting, gathering and combat maybe with exception of taming, were super-exploitable by usage of a macros or a simple bot.
So you would need to:
- design and create gahtering systems for ~7 or more resources that would not be bottable and at same time still be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay (if you still wish for certain % of players to be primarly / only crafters like it was in UO)
- design and create crafting systems for 5-7 or more professions that would not be bottable and same time still would be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay
- create advancement system for combat skills that is both sandboxy and is not macroable like it was in UO
- design a whole game so PVP would be more than just ganks&looting in a open pvp full loot game that will drive most crafters and PVErs away instantly. Like EVE did, but EVE is space and with land-based MMORPG it is much much harder. (argueably noone succeded yet)
- create best open AI for mobs to date in any MMORPG
- AAA graphical, sound and animation assets
- way to deal with inevitable assault of botting, cheating, exploiting and RMT hordes
- many more stuff it would take to long to list here
Still think 20 mln$ is enough for a UO spiritual succesor that would take UO concept and evolve it to extent woth 15 year later and to appease MMORPG veterans that exprienced a lot in gaming since 1997?
I don't think so.
Sure 20 mln$ would propably be enough to recreate UO from 1997 with small twist and good graphics, but that would not be what majority of bitter vets / mmorpg veterans would look for and play long-term.
Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
Wow, did not know choice equal dying. :-) Anyway as long there is Wow, Swtor, Gw2, .... MMO's are alive more than ever.
I saw developement tools from 1997 (well from single player rpg, not mmorpg, but still) and I know how powerful modern developent tools can be.
Yet.
Let's assume that you would want to make true spiritual succesor to Ultima Online.
While UO had a lot of player freedom and open world player housing, then aside of that was preety primitive in regards to crafting&gathering and PvE combat&enviroment. Addtionally all crafting, gathering and combat maybe with exception of taming, were super-exploitable by usage of a macros or a simple bot.
So you would need to:
- design and create gahtering systems for ~7 or more resources that would not be bottable and at same time still be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay (if you still wish for certain % of players to be primarly / only crafters like it was in UO)
- design and create crafting systems for 5-7 or more professions that would not be bottable and same time still would be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay
- create advancement system for combat skills that is both sandboxy and is not macroable like it was in UO
- design a whole game so PVP would be more than just ganks&looting in a open pvp full loot game that will drive most crafters and PVErs away instantly. Like EVE did, but EVE is space and with land-based MMORPG it is much much harder. (argueably noone succeded yet)
- create best open AI for mobs to date in any MMORPG
- AAA graphical, sound and animation assets
- way to deal with inevitable assault of botting, cheating, exploiting and RMT hordes
- many more stuff it would take to long to list here
Still think 20 mln$ is enough for a UO spiritual succesor that would take UO concept and evolve it to extent woth 15 year later and to appease MMORPG veterans that exprienced a lot in gaming since 1997?
I don't think so.
Sure 20 mln$ would propably be enough to recreate UO from 1997 with small twist and good graphics, but that would not be what majority of bitter vets / mmorpg veterans would look for and play long-term.
Excellent post.
I do have to disagree though about the amount of work you are assuming it would take to make an advanced UO clone like you are talking about.
Not that it wouldn't take more work, but that I think there's a lot of those issues that simply need better thought out design rather than all that much more work. More work to be sure, just not what I think you are thinking.
AI, in my mind, is the biggest coding issue. But with an advanced AI that includes what I think of as "world AI", i.e. that is part of an area (dungeon, ruins, mountain passes, etc.) that MOBs take on when in said area to help their own AI recognize such things as defendable locations, inward and outward directions, paths, and where allies are (this is so that MOBs can roam and fill any place and act like they are scripted for that place)...with that sort of AI you can also solve a lot of other issues.macroing and scripts being a big one, also removing the predictability of the game world via wandering MOBs with a clanship mentality where appropriate or a nesting mentality that's not predetermined.
And a much larger world than UO had would be another thing that would definitely add to the cost, as it needs to be a great world full of interesting things for players to interact with.
Its people that are killing the MMO market, not really companies. Its just like saying currency sellers ruin games when in actuality if people weren't buying it, then guess what???? People need to be smart instead of so desperate trying to buy in or hype up the next thing only to be the first ones to come QQ'ing to really any forum about how the company let them down blah blah blah.
MMOs aren't dead. They've just changed and games that weren't MMOs are crimping mechanics from them.
WOW dominated that market for so long that it's too dangerous for most to invest in. On the flip side, singleplayer and multiplayer games are drawing from the MMO model to enrich different experiences.
Comments
Ok, that makes more sense. Though truth be told, I wonder how many of those bitter vets really did try those games. I'm sure some but not any significant amount.
Maybe just the people who love to complain about things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That last sentence borders on blasphemous, but you're really onto something there.
While it was happening, I felt that the SWG community was largely responsible for the NGE. I spent a lot of time on those forums, and there were a lot of people on there raging for their ideal version of the game. So much drama and shit went down, to look at it, there was no possibly way to make the community as a whole happy. Instead of just asking for the things that needed to be fixed to be fixed, it seemed like 85% of the people on the forums were QQing over the game not being what their ideal vision told them it was.
If I were a suit out to make money, I might have done the same goddamn thing. I might have seen those forums and been like "THIS GAME IS FUCKED MAKE IT LIKE WOW PEOPLE SEEM TO LIKE THAT."
But start talking like this around here, and you might just get crucified...
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Hi
Now while actually started with the first release of Meridian 59 and i was technically no there for the launch of WoW as i was playing other MMO´s at the time... I still feel i fit in to your request.
No... I do not think it is dying... It is stabilizing. Like every other genre before it.
This process can be seen as things going stale.. After all it is a lot of finding out what works best on the cost/content scale. But it is in fact the very opposite of dying. This does not in any way disprove the mmo bubble... It is there and it will very much burst but said burst will not be the death of the genre. It is just another stage of evolution.
It is like how for a while EVERYONE was making a FPS... and then EVERYONE was making a racing game... Then EVERYONE was making a explore/craft/survive game and right now the real buzz are survival sandboxes.
Any way.... In short. No MMO´s are not dying... But some styles are less popular right now... Much like how you do not see any FP-freerunning-hyperstyized-but-hardly-any-S being released on a regular basis... No masses of Mirror´s Edge clones does not equasl the death of the FPS genre.
This have been a good conversation
I think more bitter vets done that than we think.
Most bitter vets that either don't play mmorpg's anymore or just play old mmorpg's are not complaining on the forums/news sites.
Most that complained imho were those that were desperate to find another AAA MMORPG that would suit their taste and were trying those AAA MMORPGs that came out in last years.
Amount of people that were i.e. complaining that Swtor don't have chat-bubbles in Swtor beta was big or how many WoW players was still playing WoW for years while complaining that WoW was best during vanilla/BC or that Blizzard ruined WoW by adding matchaming LFG tool, etc
I think bitter vets playing modern MMOPRGs is a much bigger group than most people think.
1. EQ2
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I currently have installed on my computer:
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
We have been talking about this for years, MMOs changed the sort of game they were years ago to attract more players and yet now they face an uncertain future. Making the game more "accessible" (easymode), "streamlining gameplay" (easymode and tiny world), and F2P (casino pay-to-win) have ended up with a genre that has a more fragile future.
What passes as a MMO is already reliant on teenagers new to gaming replacing those who leave the game. MMOs will survive but by transforming once again into something that is even less like a MMO.
MMO's are not dead they are Undead.
While there is some truth to this, its not true entirely. For one, niche gamers do not represent as small of a demographic as people would like to pretend. Then theres the money issue. Talking to someone who worked in the industry, he told me a modern game akin to the classics we loved could be created easily for under 20 million dollars. Thats 20 with 1 zero, compared to the most recent casual mmos that cost over 200 million.
Then theres the finance argument that inevitably ensues where people pretend that these games spending 100+ million dollars is somehow a better alternative or a safer investment, and thats bull feces. The return on investment on these games is exponentially lower than niche games historically that have broken away from the formula and done something different.
Its just disappointing to see the same crap being announced every few months when I look back at the last year of launches of the exact same product and see their playerbases continually dwindling away to nothing and that they were unable to captivate enough players to even keep the P2P model.
tldr - I'm a vet that doesn't expect or care for the AAA money thats being thrown at mmos today. Its gone to waste as far as I'm concerned, mostly on marketing and other hype used to polish their proverbial turds.
IF all niche gamers wanted the same type of game that might be accurate. Problem is you have small groups that all want different things. They might all come together in threads like this, but that's unification against a common dislike, not a unification wanting the same things. There is a difference. It's an important distinction though, as there are quite a few drastically different backgrounds they're coming from. AC,UO, EQ, SWG, EVE, AO, etc.. were all different games, focusing on different aspects and mechanics. It would be quite hard to make a game that caters to all of these types of players in one offering.
So who gets their game and who doesn't?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most old MMORPG players I've heard opinions of or even know personally would like game that could be described as:
"What would happen if you took first-gen MMORPG and you would improve of it's gameplay, graphics and concepts with 15 year better technology and vastly higher budget".
That kind of project would absolutely need three digit budget.
I really doubt most bitter vets would want to grind no-AI mobs and dead-brain farm of resources "chop tree, click next one, chop tree, click next one" like it was in UO.
So yeah. Three digit budget is actually needed.
Its actually not. The tools and tech available allows 1 person to do what any 3 people did even 5 years ago. 10 years ago, people were struggling to do the kind of shit that comes stock with most engines.
Bubble bursting , dying ...
we are agreeing that some drastic changes are happening.
Will that make future MMOs better ? Definetly yes.
But a MMO takes up to 4 years to produce. To be even taken seriously by investors, first you need a new "future" MMO that is even moderately successful. This will not happen emidiately. Lets give it 2 years of failed projects and 4 years of production. Thats 6 years. Add 1 year to greenlight new AAA MMO based on this moderate sucess indie MMO, plus 4 years of production.
This is 11 years until you see the fruits of this "realigning" bubble burst.
So 11 years waiting for new "good" mmo.
They might as well be dead.
Well having a ton of Indie devs slap the title of MMO on their game,does not make them an actual MMO and MORE importantly does not mean they play like an MMO should.
Imo a Triple A MMO is definitely on stand still mode,we won't see many if ANY quality mmo's for awhile.
Blizzard has just resurrected Sierra Online for the mere sake of making Indie games.I think judging by the quality i have seen,Indie is just another term for budget game design.Blizzard is a business in the market of making money,kick starters and free handouts is the IN THING so Blizzard wants in on it.By allowing anything that looks like a free handout or budget game to go under Sierra instead of Blizzard allows them to sort of escape bad press.
I have seen nothing but really bad unfinished games coming out of the Indie market.Now the whole idea has become so lame,every single developer will use the term "Alpha Access".They will also ALL OF THEM be charging you the same money we used to ONLY pay for finished products.Somehow the community has allowed this debacle to happen,mi assume because they were so bored with every game that came out,now they just buy anything and everything,allowing a terrible bad market to thrive.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Can you name 20 good MMOs?
How many of those were AAA?
How many were themeparks/WoWclones?
The real story is that MMOs have been creatively dead for a good 11 years now. It started with MEO shifting to LotRO at the last minute, and the deluge of WoW clones hasn't stopped since.
I think the AAA themepark is finally truly dead (though I said that after the massive failures of AoC, SWOTOR, and all the other clones). MMOs might return to their golden age days soon.
I saw developement tools from 1997 (well from single player rpg, not mmorpg, but still) and I know how powerful modern developent tools can be.
Yet.
Let's assume that you would want to make true spiritual succesor to Ultima Online.
While UO had a lot of player freedom and open world player housing, then aside of that was preety primitive in regards to crafting&gathering and PvE combat&enviroment. Addtionally all crafting, gathering and combat maybe with exception of taming, were super-exploitable by usage of a macros or a simple bot.
So you would need to:
- design and create gahtering systems for ~7 or more resources that would not be bottable and at same time still be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay (if you still wish for certain % of players to be primarly / only crafters like it was in UO)
- design and create crafting systems for 5-7 or more professions that would not be bottable and same time still would be sandboxy and offer interesting gameplay
- create advancement system for combat skills that is both sandboxy and is not macroable like it was in UO
- design a whole game so PVP would be more than just ganks&looting in a open pvp full loot game that will drive most crafters and PVErs away instantly. Like EVE did, but EVE is space and with land-based MMORPG it is much much harder. (argueably noone succeded yet)
- create best open AI for mobs to date in any MMORPG
- AAA graphical, sound and animation assets
- way to deal with inevitable assault of botting, cheating, exploiting and RMT hordes
- many more stuff it would take to long to list here
Still think 20 mln$ is enough for a UO spiritual succesor that would take UO concept and evolve it to extent woth 15 year later and to appease MMORPG veterans that exprienced a lot in gaming since 1997?
I don't think so.
Sure 20 mln$ would propably be enough to recreate UO from 1997 with small twist and good graphics, but that would not be what majority of bitter vets / mmorpg veterans would look for and play long-term.
Wow, did not know choice equal dying. :-) Anyway as long there is Wow, Swtor, Gw2, .... MMO's are alive more than ever.
Excellent post.
I do have to disagree though about the amount of work you are assuming it would take to make an advanced UO clone like you are talking about.
Not that it wouldn't take more work, but that I think there's a lot of those issues that simply need better thought out design rather than all that much more work. More work to be sure, just not what I think you are thinking.
AI, in my mind, is the biggest coding issue. But with an advanced AI that includes what I think of as "world AI", i.e. that is part of an area (dungeon, ruins, mountain passes, etc.) that MOBs take on when in said area to help their own AI recognize such things as defendable locations, inward and outward directions, paths, and where allies are (this is so that MOBs can roam and fill any place and act like they are scripted for that place)...with that sort of AI you can also solve a lot of other issues.macroing and scripts being a big one, also removing the predictability of the game world via wandering MOBs with a clanship mentality where appropriate or a nesting mentality that's not predetermined.
And a much larger world than UO had would be another thing that would definitely add to the cost, as it needs to be a great world full of interesting things for players to interact with.
Once upon a time....
MMOs aren't dead. They've just changed and games that weren't MMOs are crimping mechanics from them.
WOW dominated that market for so long that it's too dangerous for most to invest in. On the flip side, singleplayer and multiplayer games are drawing from the MMO model to enrich different experiences.
Got milk?