Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
Let's put this in a different context, shall we?
"Oh my God! The condor population is exploding! There are condors everywhere, with new ones being born every minute! There have never been so many condors!"
"We expect the species to go extinct soon."
Now do you understand just how ridiculous your statement and the linked article are?
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
But...that would not make the genre dead or dying right?
I so want to call you a name right now...please help me not get banned....
It makes it dying.
Yes. This is a known thing called "the long tail". It's been seen in almost everything. MMOs are no different.
The long tail theory indicates that it will become more and more profitable to cater to smaller and smaller niche audiences... yet the OP is crying about MMOs dieing because he thinks all modern MMOs are the same.... most likely because his particular niche is not being catered to.
Raph Koster: "But there’s even more to it than that. You see, as long as the network as a whole continues to grow, then a rising tide lifts all boats. The tail chunk slowly gets taller and longer. Even niche games start to grow. But if there are no niches — meaning, the games on offer are all pretty similar to one another — then the growth of the network can be capped. In effect, too many DikuMUD clones limits the total population of MMO players. People gravitate to the shiniest best one, and the tail starts to die off. The winner takes all, effectively monopolizing the audience."
That monopoly is effectively WoW. But I think it's stagnated beyond that point and the whole is slowly dropping off. In it's place are some variety of multi-player games taking the flow of players out of the MMO scene.
It's one thing to quote Raph Koster it's another thing to demonstrate you actually understand the long tail theory. Have you really thought it through? The mid section of the graph is actually far more healthy than it was in the 2006 graph shown in Koster's article.
However, for a game to cater to a very small niche in the tail it's also got to be made for a very small amount of money, and that's what most niche players refuse to accept. Most bitter vets are not bitter that there are no niche games aimed at them, they're bitter that no big budget MMOs being made to cater to their little niche.
Nail. On. Head.
I consider myself one of those vets (I was recently shit on for self proclaiming this in the title of a post), but not so much bitter.
Sure, I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I'd love to have tens of millions of dollars spent on a highly polished, content-laden game full of the sandbox greatness that I yearn for.
Do I think that is a reasonable set of expectations for developers and investors? HELL NO.
What my community niche can't really seem to accept is that those games we loved so much were bug-riddled, time-sink laden and often times broken; yet we managed to have a blast anyway because they offered tools to let us create our own content.
If SWG (the apex of a lifetime of gaming, personally speaking, therefore my example) launched today in a modern-day-equivalent state that it was launched as back in '03, we'd shit a BRICK. The battlegrounds were broken, the login system was completely unprepared for player numbers, some classes were essentially useless and/or broken, and the general level of polish was laughable. We'd never get passed all of that today. Our standards have been raised by the very games we lament for the supposed destruction of the genre. That's not even mentioning what the rest of the community would do to the game online, as they entered the genre later, they always had a choice to abandon such ridiculousness for a more polished product.
We, the part of the community that self-identifies as jaded vets, have to start to realize that this is all about money. No one is going to put up the amount of money that would be required to make a game that would satisfy our niche. This is due to the simple fact that WE ARE A NICHE. If you honestly believe that our "2nd Coming" MMO would come along and convert all of these newer (almost) lobby-style MMO game players to our preferred playstyle, YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF.
So what is it going to be? Do we want the features that gave us the freedom to enjoy our games the way we used to, or do we want oodles and oodles of developed content and polish?
We can't have both, not anytime soon.
Sadly many won't understand this, either way good post and my thoughts exactly coming from a similar background (pre-cu SWG).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Magiknight Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
Let's put this in a different context, shall we?
"Oh my God! The condor population is exploding! There are condors everywhere, with new ones being born every minute! There have never been so many condors!"
"We expect the species to go extinct soon."
Now do you understand just how ridiculous your statement and the linked article are?
Might want to use a more appropriate analogy, such as the video console crash of the early 80s, but likely before your time.
Articles mistake is the death of MMORPGs, as originally envisioned has already occurred, with all the big money pulling out and now supporting things such as MOBAs and ARPGs.
We now must rely on crowd funded indie devs to bring about a rebirth of the virtual world style MMORPG.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Bitter vets are like picky eaters. Nothing wrong with being picky. But that doesn't mean everyone else is either eating garbage or starving to death. Really. It doesn't.
I guess no one took the time to read the article.....The guy is correct, with all of those multiple of choices out there, I find my self only playing one right now while dabbling with another one...so that makes 2 out of all those "mmo's" that peak my interest.
How many are you currently playing? Like actually playing and not just jumping on for an hour at a time?
How many games am I playing at the moment? None, not since the start of the year. Last year it was EQ2, but with little interest.
Now I would like to be playing 40+ hours a week in a game with a multi-year future, but there is nothing out there for me at the moment and I see nothing on the horizon either.
I guess no one took the time to read the article.....The guy is correct, with all of those multiple of choices out there, I find my self only playing one right now while dabbling with another one...so that makes 2 out of all those "mmo's" that peak my interest.
How many are you currently playing? Like actually playing and not just jumping on for an hour at a time?
How many games am I playing at the moment? None, not since the start of the year. Last year it was EQ2, but with little interest.
Now I would like to be playing 40+ hours a week in a game with a multi-year future, but there is nothing out there for me at the moment and I see nothing on the horizon either.
Most bitter vets are not bitter that there are no niche games aimed at them, they're bitter that no big budget MMOs being made to cater to their little niche.
+1
Yup that's it and I am one of those bitter vets.
I want high budget MMORPG designed in a way that I and similar minded people like. Do I expect to get one? Nope. I've stopped waiting.
Does that mean I'll satisfy myself with either low budget mmorpg created for my niche or with big budget mmorpg that is not kind of game I want? Nope.
Originally posted by Amjoco Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
But...that would not make the genre dead or dying right?
I so want to call you a name right now...please help me not get banned....
It makes it dying.
Yes. This is a known thing called "the long tail". It's been seen in almost everything. MMOs are no different.
The long tail theory indicates that it will become more and more profitable to cater to smaller and smaller niche audiences... yet the OP is crying about MMOs dieing because he thinks all modern MMOs are the same.... most likely because his particular niche is not being catered to.
Raph Koster: "But there’s even more to it than that. You see, as long as the network as a whole continues to grow, then a rising tide lifts all boats. The tail chunk slowly gets taller and longer. Even niche games start to grow. But if there are no niches — meaning, the games on offer are all pretty similar to one another — then the growth of the network can be capped. In effect, too many DikuMUD clones limits the total population of MMO players. People gravitate to the shiniest best one, and the tail starts to die off. The winner takes all, effectively monopolizing the audience."
That monopoly is effectively WoW. But I think it's stagnated beyond that point and the whole is slowly dropping off. In it's place are some variety of multi-player games taking the flow of players out of the MMO scene.
It's one thing to quote Raph Koster it's another thing to demonstrate you actually understand the long tail theory. Have you really thought it through? The mid section of the graph is actually far more healthy than it was in the 2006 graph shown in Koster's article.
However, for a game to cater to a very small niche in the tail it's also got to be made for a very small amount of money, and that's what most niche players refuse to accept. Most bitter vets are not bitter that there are no niche games aimed at them, they're bitter that no big budget MMOs being made to cater to their little niche.
Nail. On. Head.
I consider myself one of those vets (I was recently shit on for self proclaiming this in the title of a post), but not so much bitter.
Sure, I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I'd love to have tens of millions of dollars spent on a highly polished, content-laden game full of the sandbox greatness that I yearn for.
Do I think that is a reasonable set of expectations for developers and investors? HELL NO.
What my community niche can't really seem to accept is that those games we loved so much were bug-riddled, time-sink laden and often times broken; yet we managed to have a blast anyway because they offered tools to let us create our own content.
If SWG (the apex of a lifetime of gaming, personally speaking, therefore my example) launched today in a modern-day-equivalent state that it was launched as back in '03, we'd shit a BRICK. The battlegrounds were broken, the login system was completely unprepared for player numbers, some classes were essentially useless and/or broken, and the general level of polish was laughable. We'd never get passed all of that today. Our standards have been raised by the very games we lament for the supposed destruction of the genre. That's not even mentioning what the rest of the community would do to the game online, as they entered the genre later, they always had a choice to abandon such ridiculousness for a more polished product.
We, the part of the community that self-identifies as jaded vets, have to start to realize that this is all about money. No one is going to put up the amount of money that would be required to make a game that would satisfy our niche. This is due to the simple fact that WE ARE A NICHE. If you honestly believe that our "2nd Coming" MMO would come along and convert all of these newer (almost) lobby-style MMO game players to our preferred playstyle, YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF.
So what is it going to be? Do we want the features that gave us the freedom to enjoy our games the way we used to, or do we want oodles and oodles of developed content and polish?
We can't have both, not anytime soon.
Just wanted to add, " nice post ! " to this as well. Reality is what it is, and I was beginning to wonder if all the bitter vets lived in some type of alternate reality. I sympathize with your plight, and appreciate the balls it took to admit that.
I think this is the biggest misconception out there today. That some type of old school, hard as hell, non hand holding, punishing for dying, type of MMO would be successful in todays market. In a significant way, to justify the massive expense it would take to make it, that is.
I highly doubt it, but I understand the few that want it. However unless Bill Gates or someone with oodles of cash, decides that bitter MMO vets are deserving of their charity, I just don't see it happening.
As far as MMO's being dead, I really don't care. I can't even be bothered to argue the point anymore. Unless you have some way of changing this, ( ie: billions of dollars burning a hole in your pocket and a perverse desire to piss it all away) then what is the point of discussing it anymore? Games are not a non for profit business. And people will play what they want to play.
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
Most important thing bitter vets contributed to today's genre situation is to spending time&money on all those MMORPGs that neither were directed at them or fullfilled their expectations.
Many vets were buying boxes&subs or more recently early acces, founder packs or even just playing for free (& maybe spending money in CS) for YEARS on all bigger budget MMORPG releases.
That is what bitter vets did wrong.
Instead of deluding themself that this next AAA game will finally be directed at them, bitter vets should have left MMORPG genre years ago, instead of funding MMORPG trends they were against in first place.
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
Most important thing bitter vets contributed to today's genre situation is to spending time&money on all those MMORPGs that neither were directed at them or fullfilled their expectations.
Many vets were buying boxes&subs or more recently early acces, founder packs or even just playing for free (& maybe spending money in CS) for YEARS on all bigger budget MMORPG releases.
That is what bitter vets did wrong.
Instead of deluding themself that this next AAA game will finally be directed at them, bitter vets should have left MMORPG genre years ago, instead of funding MMORPG trends they were against in first place.
I am sorry, you want them to stop spending money, is that right
It's not just old vets, it's also game developers who don't appreciate mmorpg are niche - they do not command millions of subs a month, and to aim for those goals they bastardise their game design do it becomes an unfocused mishmash of genre, and end up with a game that's not a good mmorpg.
As for genre dying, that's rubbish ofc, great games still come out, for those that know what they want.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
Most important thing bitter vets contributed to today's genre situation is to spending time&money on all those MMORPGs that neither were directed at them or fullfilled their expectations.
Many vets were buying boxes&subs or more recently early acces, founder packs or even just playing for free (& maybe spending money in CS) for YEARS on all bigger budget MMORPG releases.
That is what bitter vets did wrong.
Instead of deluding themself that this next AAA game will finally be directed at them, bitter vets should have left MMORPG genre years ago, instead of funding MMORPG trends they were against in first place.
I am sorry, you want them to stop spending money, is that right
I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
Did they?
Are you actually saying that the people who didn't like/decried the types of games that have come out in the last few years were the sole people funding these games or were these games funded by people who didn't care/liked them?
My thought is that the "bitter vets" are probably a much smaller demographic than you think in comparison to the millions of people who spend money on these games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think the MMO "RPG" is certainly dying. Im still playing The Secret World (started a new toon...that's 6 toons Ive taken through since early beta testing). It's one of the few MMO's with a decent to great story, good character building and non repetitive questing.
I've tried a few of the kickstarter games and I just don't think that that's how you can create an MMORPG. It takes too many resources that many kickstarter devs/companies don't have.
I could be wrong, but I dont think so.
The good thing is there are still existing options:
FFXIV or FFXI for those that don't mind old school/slow combat
The Secret World for those that don't mind intricate skill builds
The Elder Scolls Online for those that like action combat.
I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
Did they?
Are you actually saying that the people who didn't like/decried the types of games that have come out in the last few years were the sole people funding these games or were these games funded by people who didn't care/liked them?
My thought is that the "bitter vets" are probably a much smaller demographic than you think in comparison to the millions of people who spend money on these games.
I am perplexed that what I said is not clear.
Of course I don't say that all people playing new MMORPGs are bitter vets. Bitter vets are miniority.
I am just saying that many bitter vets were/are playing new MMORPGs and then complain about how they suck, and then go and play another AAA MMORPG that releaes , then complaing about it, leave, and try another one and so on. All this while it's perfectly clear that those MMORPGs are not designed to have what bitter vets want in first place.
Comments
Very much alive for me. Some of the games I am looking forward to.
Everquest Next
Black Desert
Bless
Kingdoms Under Fire 2
Echo Of Soul
Cabal 2
Project Hon
Lineage Eternal
Lost Ark
Peria Chronicles
Let's put this in a different context, shall we?
"Oh my God! The condor population is exploding! There are condors everywhere, with new ones being born every minute! There have never been so many condors!"
"We expect the species to go extinct soon."
Now do you understand just how ridiculous your statement and the linked article are?
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Sadly many won't understand this, either way good post and my thoughts exactly coming from a similar background (pre-cu SWG).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The article says they are dying because there are so many. One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.
Let's put this in a different context, shall we?
"Oh my God! The condor population is exploding! There are condors everywhere, with new ones being born every minute! There have never been so many condors!"
"We expect the species to go extinct soon."
Now do you understand just how ridiculous your statement and the linked article are?
Might want to use a more appropriate analogy, such as the video console crash of the early 80s, but likely before your time.Articles mistake is the death of MMORPGs, as originally envisioned has already occurred, with all the big money pulling out and now supporting things such as MOBAs and ARPGs.
We now must rely on crowd funded indie devs to bring about a rebirth of the virtual world style MMORPG.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Bitter vets are like picky eaters. Nothing wrong with being picky. But that doesn't mean everyone else is either eating garbage or starving to death. Really. It doesn't.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
A saturated market is not a dead market, different things. One has customers (in the case of MMOs a lot of them), the other doesn't.
Both are unattractive to currently invest in though, I'll agree to that.
MMOs are simply not the booming super lucrative "make a decent product and you'll cash in" market they used to be.
There are some segments that are still under served though, those are great targets for non-mega-budget projects.
How many games am I playing at the moment? None, not since the start of the year. Last year it was EQ2, but with little interest.
Now I would like to be playing 40+ hours a week in a game with a multi-year future, but there is nothing out there for me at the moment and I see nothing on the horizon either.
MMOs are DEAD for them
fixed.
Back to enjoying my mmos.
PUNKS NOT DEAD
err wait ... i mean...
So if youre not playing MMO, MMOs are dead?
Yeah, thats right
+1
Yup that's it and I am one of those bitter vets.
I want high budget MMORPG designed in a way that I and similar minded people like. Do I expect to get one? Nope. I've stopped waiting.
Does that mean I'll satisfy myself with either low budget mmorpg created for my niche or with big budget mmorpg that is not kind of game I want? Nope.
I will simply not play MMORPGs.
This again
MMO genre is dying, and we are damn pissed about it.
Sure there will always be few people content in eating stale bread each and every day over and over. But even the mold on the bread allready has mold.
I would like to see one person who was there for Ultima online , EQ1 .. waited in queue for WOW release , that doesnt think MMOs are dying right now ?
Great troll, so the bad games are dying, the good remain.
Great!
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
How many cars are you driving ? Only one ? Well, thats proof that cars are dead !
Just wanted to add, " nice post ! " to this as well. Reality is what it is, and I was beginning to wonder if all the bitter vets lived in some type of alternate reality. I sympathize with your plight, and appreciate the balls it took to admit that.
I think this is the biggest misconception out there today. That some type of old school, hard as hell, non hand holding, punishing for dying, type of MMO would be successful in todays market. In a significant way, to justify the massive expense it would take to make it, that is.
I highly doubt it, but I understand the few that want it. However unless Bill Gates or someone with oodles of cash, decides that bitter MMO vets are deserving of their charity, I just don't see it happening.
As far as MMO's being dead, I really don't care. I can't even be bothered to argue the point anymore. Unless you have some way of changing this, ( ie: billions of dollars burning a hole in your pocket and a perverse desire to piss it all away) then what is the point of discussing it anymore? Games are not a non for profit business. And people will play what they want to play.
Maybe the bitter vets have to accept a little of the blame themselves, for where things ended up.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Most important thing bitter vets contributed to today's genre situation is to spending time&money on all those MMORPGs that neither were directed at them or fullfilled their expectations.
Many vets were buying boxes&subs or more recently early acces, founder packs or even just playing for free (& maybe spending money in CS) for YEARS on all bigger budget MMORPG releases.
That is what bitter vets did wrong.
Instead of deluding themself that this next AAA game will finally be directed at them, bitter vets should have left MMORPG genre years ago, instead of funding MMORPG trends they were against in first place.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I am sorry, you want them to stop spending money, is that right
As for genre dying, that's rubbish ofc, great games still come out, for those that know what they want.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I am pointing out that spending money on a products that have fetures and design that you are against is counter-productive.
Just think about what many bitter vets complained about and then think about all AAA mmorpg's in last 7-8 years or more (depedning on what bitter vet generation we talk about) many of those bitter vets spend money and/or time on and then complained about those mmorpg's.
ALL those AAA MMORPGs had multiple things bitter vets complained about for years.
Did they?
Are you actually saying that the people who didn't like/decried the types of games that have come out in the last few years were the sole people funding these games or were these games funded by people who didn't care/liked them?
My thought is that the "bitter vets" are probably a much smaller demographic than you think in comparison to the millions of people who spend money on these games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think the MMO "RPG" is certainly dying. Im still playing The Secret World (started a new toon...that's 6 toons Ive taken through since early beta testing). It's one of the few MMO's with a decent to great story, good character building and non repetitive questing.
I've tried a few of the kickstarter games and I just don't think that that's how you can create an MMORPG. It takes too many resources that many kickstarter devs/companies don't have.
I could be wrong, but I dont think so.
The good thing is there are still existing options:
FFXIV or FFXI for those that don't mind old school/slow combat
The Secret World for those that don't mind intricate skill builds
The Elder Scolls Online for those that like action combat.
I am perplexed that what I said is not clear.
Of course I don't say that all people playing new MMORPGs are bitter vets. Bitter vets are miniority.
I am just saying that many bitter vets were/are playing new MMORPGs and then complain about how they suck, and then go and play another AAA MMORPG that releaes , then complaing about it, leave, and try another one and so on. All this while it's perfectly clear that those MMORPGs are not designed to have what bitter vets want in first place.