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RPG is the reason MMOs are not evolving

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  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685

    I wouldn't blame RPG's as a whole.

    There are some RPG elements that can sometimes be a hindrance to enjoyment, such as too much immersion or realism, and also restrictive lore.

    Stories and progression can be good for an MMO, since they give it "life", a more realistic living world.  Otherwise, the game ends up being something like Quake, with a shallow background, or a virtual world simulator.

    RPG customization is what separates it from other genres, otherwise you get pre-determined customizations set by the developers.  Other genres such as FPS and RTS have some RPG elements to them, but not as in-depth as an MMORPG.

    MMO's can still evolve with RPG, by giving players the tools to customize their own content.

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    MMO is not a genre.  It's an adjective.

    RPG is a genre.  MMO modifies RPG.  And the only thing MMO means is massive multiplayer and online.

    So MMO means almost nothing by itself.

    RPG describes a specific type of gameplay.  MMO does not.

    This does mean there are a lot of possibilities for the different genres MMO is attached to, but MMO itself means almost nothing and it's always the genre itself that does all of the work.

    RP isn't specifically about gameplay though.

    The RP in RPG, is just acting out a role, of a Game.

    So, in essence, Games are just a series of activities, with, or without objectives, or goals.

    Acting out a role can be completed entirely without gameplay, or in a virtual world without any interaction.

    image

  • DelCabonDelCabon Member UncommonPosts: 258
    Originally posted by Oziius

    I'm starting to think that a lot of folks around here just love to hear themselves speak. First off, what recent MMO slump? Do you mean You are in a slump? I'm playing eso with a whole lotta buncha other players and there's no talks of slumps in game. I think some players mistake the fact that they are not happy with any games out  for a problem with the genre as a whole. For every one of the vocal posters on this site, there are 50 people playing games and no coming to forum sites to complain. This site and others like it are the overwhelming minority of gamer opinion, not the other way around. Just because people come here to complain doesn't mean that there's a problem with the genre. The genre is making plenty of money with happy gamers. I'm one of them.  

    Thank you. I am another :)

     

    Del Cabon
    A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO. 

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by observer

    RP isn't specifically about gameplay though.

    The RP in RPG, is just acting out a role, of a Game.

    So, in essence, Games are just a series of activities, with, or without objectives, or goals.

    Acting out a role can be completed entirely without gameplay, or in a virtual world without any interaction.

    image

    Well acting out a role sounds suspiciously like the sort of improv storytelling and acting which exists in tabletop RPGs, but which notably hasn't been a core trait of the 35+ years of videogame RPGs.

    "RPG" in the context of videogames has always implied the core pillars of story, progression, and combat.  So those are what's implied when someone calls a videogame an RPG. (Though combat can be replaced with other types of decision-making; Harvest Moon is largely about farming, for example.)

    You're right that acting out a role can exist regardless of the game rules.  It doesn't even matter if the game is considered and RPG, players can still act out a role.  So usually that type of role-play isn't related to a game being called an RPG at all.

    I think I'd disagree that a game is still a game without objective/goals though.  The goals can be subtle sometimes, but if something is entirely devoid of goals then it's not a game.  For example Minecraft in creative mode is entirely void of goals (not even the extremely minor goals of "have x pieces of wood to create this thing"), which means it's not a game in that mode (and barely a game in survival mode, due to extremely few goals existing.)

    So games are an activity governed by rules (including at least one objective) where player choice affects the outcome.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust

    11 pages arguing over 3 words....

     

    Role - "a part or character played by an actor or actress" (or in this case...the player)

    Playing - (as in role playing)  "to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction"

    Game - "an amusement or pastime"

     

    Seems to me...any game where you take on a role and play said game...but....that's just me

    heh, that was already discussed far and wide - that definition covers every video game ever made.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust
    Originally posted by NobleNerd

    RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.

    Oh...this too ^

     

    Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top PnPs...is delusional

    Yup, but transition left everything but character stats behind and turned into hack&slash camping game.

    We wont see mmoRPG until we have AI.

    Until then its either figure out how to best facilitate limited choices we do have or abandon it altogether (like old school games did)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    You mean things like changing into a bird for flying or crafting a leather ball or dancing and many other features like those are tired directly to combat and balance? Their are still many many little abilities and features in games that are just for fun and or because they make sense fior that class and funny have anything to do with combat.
    It seems to me that the more "non-combat related" things are getting ripped out of MMOs. Even a major portion of crafting is about making better combat gear. Most players today think those activities are boring or waste what precious little time they have to play.

    Since most players today have little interest in these "boring, time wasting" activities, is it any wonder developers are reluctant to put them in their games?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • StarIStarI Member UncommonPosts: 987

    After lots of good responses and answers it's time to draw a conclussion and put this thread to rest:

    OP smokes too much?

  • NeherunNeherun Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    RPGs do not necessarily involve questing, but themeparks do. You just confirmed the themepark argument and avoided calling it a themepark argument.

     

    image

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    You mean things like changing into a bird for flying or crafting a leather ball or dancing and many other features like those are tired directly to combat and balance? Their are still many many little abilities and features in games that are just for fun and or because they make sense fior that class and funny have anything to do with combat.

    It seems to me that the more "non-combat related" things are getting ripped out of MMOs. Even a major portion of crafting is about making better combat gear. Most players today think those activities are boring or waste what precious little time they have to play.

     

    Since most players today have little interest in these "boring, time wasting" activities, is it any wonder developers are reluctant to put them in their games?

    No, players think those are boring because they either werent utilized at all or at some most basic/simplistic/limited way so its better devs dont waste time on those.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    RPGs do not necessarily involve questing, but themeparks do. You just confirmed the themepark argument and avoided calling it a themepark argument.

     

    Yes they do. As soon as you set any goal it automatically becomes quest.

    What you really wanted to say is that there shouldnt necessarily be any goals(quests) set on you by others.

    But since i have yet encounter MMO that you cant do absolutely nothing else but quests, its also pretty non existant occurance.

  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,101
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I disagree because you are assuming your definition of rpg is theme park type games. To me a true rpg let's you do what you want to do (with social consequences like in UO), go where you want to go, no limitations other than what you put on yourself. If you ask me there is LESS rpg in everything since WoW, not more. We have taken rpg OUT of mmos long ago, and that is why they suck.

    You call it evolution, I call it de-evolution.

    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

    Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.

    The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,101
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Been playing MMO'rpg's since they were born and I have hardly ever seen any rpg in any MMO.

    Players with names like hdsdfhfujfhgahadi  running around or 'GregDk' or 'xxOlegRUSxx' etc etc...RP? Hell no.

    And the handful that did RP, it was a scary scene where you doubted whether to call the white coats or not.

    Either you are lieing, never played on RP servers back in the day, never joined up in an rp group/guild, or were just never paying attention. I have played since Ultima Online and there was RP EVERYWHERE in that game, at least on Catskills. There were entire active guilds that were hardcore rp. EQ had RP, Daoc had great rp servers, Age of Conan had a huge RP base that could be seen/heard in major cities at the taverns doing their thing....or perhaps you thought they were npcs? And much RP would be done within group chat, so if you were not actively looking for it you would not see it, but it was going on all around you.

    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,101
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

    You have no idea what roleplaying is if you think a game needs to hand hold you through it.

    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    It seems to me that the more "non-combat related" things are getting ripped out of MMOs. Even a major portion of crafting is about making better combat gear. Most players today think those activities are boring or waste what precious little time they have to play.

     

    Since most players today have little interest in these "boring, time wasting" activities, is it any wonder developers are reluctant to put them in their games?

    Heh

    Last night I spent time on my carpenter, making new furniture for my house. I then spent a couple hours redecorating. Not a single combat all night.

     

    I was playing a 10 year old MMORPG.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

    Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.

    The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.

    So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.

    And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    It seems to me that the more "non-combat related" things are getting ripped out of MMOs. Even a major portion of crafting is about making better combat gear. Most players today think those activities are boring or waste what precious little time they have to play.

     

    Since most players today have little interest in these "boring, time wasting" activities, is it any wonder developers are reluctant to put them in their games?

    Heh

    Last night I spent time on my carpenter, making new furniture for my house. I then spent a couple hours redecorating.

     

    But then, I was playing a 10 year old MMORPG.

    It doesn't have to be a 10 year old MMO to have those features. Aion has a capentry* skill too for example.

    ArcheAge lets you do a bit of it too if I'm not mistaken.

    * Or whatever its called in there. Either way it lets you craft furniture too.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Viper482

    Either you are lieing, never played on RP servers back in the day, never joined up in an rp group/guild, or were just never paying attention. I have played since Ultima Online and there was RP EVERYWHERE in that game, at least on Catskills. There were entire active guilds that were hardcore rp. EQ had RP, Daoc had great rp servers, Age of Conan had a huge RP base that could be seen/heard in major cities at the taverns doing their thing....or perhaps you thought they were npcs? And much RP would be done within group chat, so if you were not actively looking for it you would not see it, but it was going on all around you.

    Everquest: Top of the World Inn.

    Many a night was spent as a dark elf in a dress, telling tall tales and getting drunk with friends, new and old.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    It seems to me that the more "non-combat related" things are getting ripped out of MMOs. Even a major portion of crafting is about making better combat gear. Most players today think those activities are boring or waste what precious little time they have to play.

     

    Since most players today have little interest in these "boring, time wasting" activities, is it any wonder developers are reluctant to put them in their games?

    Heh

    Last night I spent time on my carpenter, making new furniture for my house. I then spent a couple hours redecorating.

     

    But then, I was playing a 10 year old MMORPG.

    It doesn't have to be a 10 year old MMO to have those features. Aion has a capentry* skill too for example.

    ArcheAge lets you do a bit of it too if I'm not mistaken.

    * Or whatever its called in there. Either way it lets you craft furniture too.

    LOTRO, SWTOR just to add to the list

    WS? Rift? never got into crafting while playing those, but i presume you can craft something.

    But also, just to mention, housing turned out to be pretty irrelevant feature, if games has it it nice, but if it doesnt it doesnt really matter. To go further, its even more like hotels and swimming pools.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

    It doesn't have to be a 10 year old MMO to have those features. Aion has a capentry* skill too for example.

    ArcheAge lets you do a bit of it too if I'm not mistaken.

    * Or whatever its called in there. Either way it lets you craft furniture too.

    I've tried both of those games.

    End game in both is PvP focused, and I don't enjoy PvP. That is before we even start to discuss Archeages's P2W cash shop.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

    It doesn't have to be a 10 year old MMO to have those features. Aion has a capentry* skill too for example.

    ArcheAge lets you do a bit of it too if I'm not mistaken.

    * Or whatever its called in there. Either way it lets you craft furniture too.

    I've tried both of those games.

    End game in both is PvP focused, and I don't enjoy PvP. That is before we even start to discuss Archeages's P2W cash shop.

    Whats does that have to do with crafting furniture and decorating your house?

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    LOTRO, SWTOR just to add to the list

    WS? Rift? never got into crafting while playing those, but i presume you can craft something.

    But also, just to mention, housing turned out to be pretty irrelevant feature, if games has it it nice, but if it doesnt it doesnt really matter. To go further, its even more like hotels and swimming pools.

    Rift's crafting is purely gear advancement and combat.

    LotR is an older game, launching in 2007. It used to have an awesome RP community before going F2P.

    PvP is an irrelevant feature: I don't enjoy it, therefore it does not matter. To go further, its existence actively detracts from games in which it is included as a supported feature.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,101
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

    Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.

    The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.

    So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.

    And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.

    And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.

    I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.

    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
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