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Spiritual successor?

grimgryphongrimgryphon Member CommonPosts: 682

What's up with all the assertions that some games are the "spiritual successor" to other old-school games. After hearing this in way too many places (GW2, SotA, PoE), I'm starting to think it actually means this:

"If we can convince gamers that this game will somehow be just like <insert favorite old-school MMO here> then we can get backers, because this game will hardly stand on its own."

Market-ese or truth?

What do you think?

Optional PvP = No PvP

Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,643

    Well I am not sure about KS projects claiming this - but in case of Vanguard SoH, it really was a spiritual successor to EQ1.

    I am pretty sure that Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EQ1 and Vanguard.

     

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    A lot of people have been asking for X game, but with updated graphics. A large enough number that indie developers are starting to listen and attempt to make what people are asking for, niche games targeting smaller audiences.

    Unfortunately, large investors have little interest in backing games targeting niche markets. To get necessary funding, the indie developers turn towards their target audience. They make sure the players know, "We are building a game that will be very similar to Game X, but with modern graphics." It sets the expectations and defines the niche audience they are aiming for.

     

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,488

    Weasel phrase really, someone takes a few or even many features of a previous title and thinks somehow the new title will bear more than a superficial resemblance to the original.

    What they fail to realize is that a MMORPG is really sum of it's parts, a perfect storm if you will and those parts can't be discarded or interchanged with other designs and maintain the same magic if you will.

    So spiritual successor degenerates into pale imitation, at least so far.

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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,740
    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    "If we can convince gamers that this game will somehow be just like then we can get backers, because this game will hardly stand on its own."

    It depends on the devs making the game.

    I believe some are sincere about their claims, and really believe that it'll be a spiritual successor to a game that they once liked too. While others are simply preying on the nostalgia that a lot of gamers have towards certain titles. If there's anything all the Kickstarter's have proven it's that these players have no problem spreading their wallets wide open for a smooth talking dev. xD

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Well I am not sure about KS projects claiming this - but in case of Vanguard SoH, it really was a spiritual successor to EQ1.

    I am pretty sure that Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EQ1 and Vanguard.

     

    Agreed. It depends on the game. The EQ/Vanguard example is a good example of where that was the actual design and goal of development.

    AGN's blog has a relevant recent entry that brings up several recent ones from Kickstarter.

     

     

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  • The colloqiualism "spirtual successor" doesn't mean jack because it is put to the lie the by some much more useful colloqiualisms.  These are:

     

    "Talk is cheap, whiskey costs money"

    and/or

    "The proof is in the pudding"

     

    If you read between the lines it means the following "We liked X but there were too many problems with it so we are doing a completely new design that attempts to keep the stuff we liked in X but it would be a blatant lie to say we are remaking X since we are basically changing everything.  Since that we are not remaking it and have not actually made the new thing we can't actually even truly claim we kept the stuff we liked about X therefore this shit is all spiritual because it sure ain't real."

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    What's up with all the assertions that some games are the "spiritual successor" to other old-school games. After hearing this in way too many places (GW2, SotA, PoE), I'm starting to think it actually means this:

    "If we can convince gamers that this game will somehow be just like then we can get backers, because this game will hardly stand on its own."

    Market-ese or truth?

    What do you think?

    It is all bull.  Don't fall for it.

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    The colloqiualism "spirtual successor" doesn't mean jack because it is put to the lie the by some much more useful colloqiualisms.  These are:

     

    "Talk is cheap, whiskey costs money"

    and/or

    "The proof is in the pudding"

     

    If you read between the lines it means the following "We liked X but there were too many problems with it so we are doing a completely new design that attempts to keep the stuff we liked in X but it would be a blatant lie to say we are remaking X since we are basically changing everything.  Since that we are not remaking it and have not actually made the new thing we can't actually even truly claim we kept the stuff we liked about X therefore this shit is all spiritual because it sure ain't real."

    At least the people who named the product "I can't believe it's not butter" can say they never claimed it to be butter!

    Another take on it is we would like to have game X but since we cant'/won't purchase the legal rights to it, we will pull this trick.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,590

    To me, you don't need an exact copy of a game with updated graphics to have a "Spiritual Successor."

    I made the connection that ESO's Cyrodiil was the closest spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot simply because it's PvP system was more closely designed to it than WAR Online or GW2. The mechanics, vast land size, scrolls instead of relics, PvP skill trees and so on. Hell, they even have the milegates.

    So, I don't see where it's wrong to make that claim if ESO is in fact the closest resemblance to what DAoC had to offer in RvR.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,064
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I am pretty sure that Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EQ1 and Vanguard.

    A good example of why something that worked 15+ years ago won't work nowadays, too. VG tanked, and Pantheon will do just the same.
    That's just my personal opinion and prediction, of course.

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  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,305
    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    What's up with all the assertions that some games are the "spiritual successor" to other old-school games. After hearing this in way too many places (GW2, SotA, PoE), I'm starting to think it actually means this:

    "If we can convince gamers that this game will somehow be just like then we can get backers, because this game will hardly stand on its own."

    Market-ese or truth?

    What do you think?

    I see it as pure marketing crap.

    GW 2 has very little in common with GW 1 except the producer and the lore.

    PoE has got very little to do with Diablo 2. But it's grind heavy! No way, an ARPG being mostly about loot! I am shocked...

    SoTA I can't comment.

    Vanguard was different than EQ2 yes. I can't comment except that because I haven't played EQ1.

    .

    .

    .

    Most examples point out to pure money marketing scheme, Because if you can get even as little as 20% playerbase of once popular game, why not? It's not like you put any actual effort in it. Here's why: because you'll end up remembered as a pale imitation of what you set out to imitiate. NOT as a king of a (sub)genre as the original game used to be.

    What I see when I play "spiritual succesors" to classic games are hooks that are supposed to hook you into playing that game. That's why GW2 has the skill system it has, the lore it has etc. But almost everyone that played the original game will see right through BS that presents itself as "the spiritual succesor" to the original game.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,740
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    PoE has got very little to do with Diablo 2. But it's grind heavy! No way, an ARPG being mostly about loot! I am shocked...

     

    Actually the connection they make there is usually about the skill trees, and how painful it is to respec in PoE, which is a lot closer to D2's approach of no respecs than D3's "free to respec" as much as you want approach.

    It's mostly the "hardcore" players that are promoting that stuff. I'm not a big fan of the whole "Haha, you didn't know the game or followed some online build, so now your character is screwed! Please start over!" approach as I tend to value my time too much for that kind of BS.

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  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,305
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    PoE has got very little to do with Diablo 2. But it's grind heavy! No way, an ARPG being mostly about loot! I am shocked...

     

    Actually the connection they make there is usually about the skill trees, and how painful it is to respec in PoE, which is a lot closer to D2's approach of no respecs than D3's "free to respec" as much as you want approach.

    It's mostly the "hardcore" players that are promoting that stuff. I'm not a big fan of the whole "Haha, you didn't know the game or followed some online build, so now your character is screwed! Please start over!" approach as I tend to value my time too much for that kind of BS.

    How would you feel about The Witcher 2's hardcore mode then? LOL

    To me, hardcore is something like The Witcher 2's HC or like Diablo 2's or like GW1's Survivor title before it got ultra casualised(merely reset the counter to 0 instead of MORE LUCK NEXT TIME). Difficult, promotes every single battle, yet understandable. Ok Diablo 2 had the skill tree nightmare, but still... :p

  • ArazaleArazale Member Posts: 348
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Well I am not sure about KS projects claiming this - but in case of Vanguard SoH, it really was a spiritual successor to EQ1.

    I am pretty sure that Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EQ1 and Vanguard.

     

    You must be super high if you think Pantheon is gonna be a spiritual successor to EQ1. A game like EQ1 will never be made again because it will die before it was ever even born.

     

    While the two games may share certain similar mechanics and features, you could also point to just about as many shared mechanics and features as a half dozen other games.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by Arazale
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Well I am not sure about KS projects claiming this - but in case of Vanguard SoH, it really was a spiritual successor to EQ1.

    I am pretty sure that Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EQ1 and Vanguard.

     

    You must be super high if you think Pantheon is gonna be a spiritual successor to EQ1. A game like EQ1 will never be made again because it will die before it was ever even born.

     

    While the two games may share certain similar mechanics and features, you could also point to just about as many shared mechanics and features as a half dozen other games.

    Good point.  They have been floating out so many things from many games that they are acting like a spiritual successor to many games.  A pantheon of spiritual successors! :D

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • TimesplitTimesplit Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    PoE has got very little to do with Diablo 2. But it's grind heavy! No way, an ARPG being mostly about loot! I am shocked...

     

    Actually the connection they make there is usually about the skill trees, and how painful it is to respec in PoE, which is a lot closer to D2's approach of no respecs than D3's "free to respec" as much as you want approach.

    It's mostly the "hardcore" players that are promoting that stuff. I'm not a big fan of the whole "Haha, you didn't know the game or followed some online build, so now your character is screwed! Please start over!" approach as I tend to value my time too much for that kind of BS.

    I honestly don't see the connection between D2 and PoE due to the skill system. Maybe if you said something like the Sphere Grid in FFX, then that's something else. They also eventually added respecs in D2 requiring effort, instead of the simplified D3 system with the goal of pleasing a new PC / Console audience.

     

    One of the biggest minuses about PoE is the desync issues, which pretty much erases the viability for most builds. If you have anything that attacks even a little too fast, good luck.

  • Charlie.CheswickCharlie.Cheswick Member UncommonPosts: 469

    Pantheon is the real deal.

    Brad McQuaid: 2 legit 2 quit. Hey-heyyyyyyy!

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,575


    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Weasel phrase really, someone takes a few or even many features of a previous title and thinks somehow the new title will bear more than a superficial resemblance to the original.What they fail to realize is that a MMORPG is really sum of it's parts, a perfect storm if you will and those parts can't be discarded or interchanged with other designs and maintain the same magic if you will.So spiritual successor degenerates into pale imitation, at least so far.
    This is how I view the term. It is kinda, sorta, maybe similar yet different to some old game.

    How I read this is "We liked some things about this old game. So we will build something like it but missing what 'we developers' did not like."

    The funny thing is I backed 2 "spiritual successor" games on KS. I had my doubts about that but the single player game Worlds of Magic (Master of Magic's "spiritual successor") released this month and City of Titans (City of Heroes' "spiritual successor") is still in early development.

    I know these 2 games will NOT be the old games they proclaim to spiritually succeed, but I am curious just how close they will be. Worlds of Magic has added a LOT of features that MoM never had, and made some of the original features larger, more complex. I am still curious to find out if they got MoM's diplomacy feature working :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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