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Combat improved

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

I loved all and everything about the game, yet i never could get into the combat....

 

not so much the execution, but with only 7 abbilities it felt way to much like hack and slash witouth tactical and strategical depth... Way to repetitive with repetition of the same buttons time after time..  Espescially when compared to GW2 or even neverwinter combat it fell short by miles

 

 

my question is, how much did the combat improve? 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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Comments

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,797

    Personally I didn't notice much of a difference when I played the "new" Tokyo missions last night.

    I can tell that Aegis goes down faster now but I think that's it.

    Oh and I think I read somewhere that monster hp has been reduced in general and that some of the rather useless skills are a little less useless now to allow more customized builds.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    [mod edit]

    thays a nonsense comment, this game is incredibly well done, except for the tactical and strategical layers of the combat system.. and some combat annimations..

     

    sadly funcom fails to see this, or just has no solution for it...  The seven skills with no depth combat system just does not work for to many people... 

     

    if they just would totally overhaul the combat system,  it would be an awesome game, i can think of many many ideas for making 7 button combat work and have depth...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Member UncommonPosts: 955
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Elsabolts
    As with all things Funcom it should be avoided !

    thays a nonsense comment, this game is incredibly well done, except for the tactical and strategical layers of the combat system.. and some combat annimations..

     

    sadly funcom fails to see this, or just has no solution for it...  The seven skills with no depth combat system just does not work for to many people... 

     

    if they just would totally overhaul the combat system,  it would be an awesome game, i can think of many many ideas for making 7 button combat work and have depth...

    Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.  I think TSW is the worst thing Funcom have ever produced.

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904
    The combat has "improved" but probably not the way you are thinking.  It is still the same animation wise and strategically, but the mobs losing some HP made it ALOT less repetative.  I never had a problem with the combat though.

    image
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,797

    TSW is great but they simply don't have the money to redo the combat the way you imagine it.

    I mean look, the financial report was released showing they are in trouble and right after that they offer a bundle with a nice discount.

    Not even SWTOR redid the combat and there are plenty of things wrong with it and they have a much larger budget.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • TheAmazingDwarfTheAmazingDwarf Member UncommonPosts: 234

    I don't think they don't see it. It seems that Funcom has a skelton crew and loads of financial problems. I think they've doing quite a lot despite of the adversities, but they just don't have the money nor the man power to do deep improvements. They don't have animators to fix the animations. Age of Conan is another example of this: they've being revamping the craft system for years now...

    It's sad, because I love both TSW and AOC and would love to support Funcom more - lifetimer on TSW and subscriber on AoC-, but sometimes I ask myself if is it worth it? I think the problem is Funcom as a company, it doesn't seem to work very well. And now with Joel Bylos away from both games I don't expect too much.

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,597
    Originally posted by Randayn
    The combat has "improved" but probably not the way you are thinking.  It is still the same animation wise and strategically, but the mobs losing some HP made it ALOT less repetative.  I never had a problem with the combat though.

    Pretty much this.  They made trash mobs in the zones alot quicker to kill.  They also added some juice to the epic combat manuevers.

    Supposedly though, Tokyo and dungeons are pretty much the same as they always were. 

    IMO, it's an improvement in that you spend less time fighting and more time doing the missions, which are by far the best aspect of the game.  It was enough difference to where I can see myself playing fairly regularly, where before I don't think I played for more than 15 minutes in the past 6 months.

    Ak'ab are still annoying as hell.  If one aggro's, you can count on 3-4 more showing up out of nowhere, making an * with charge lines on the ground...

  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    my question is, how much did the combat improve? 

     

    If you didn't like the gameplay then, you won't like the gameplay now. It's one of the reasons TSW tanked hard while GW2 thrived. Even though you could debate GW2 as a game isnt all that better, gameplay wise it is.

     

    What changed is, they removed some barriers that made players quit after a few weeks because they had to hack and slash through waves of mobs at the start just to get to the next quest, which was just that.

     

    So it makes it easier to move around in the world for new players to get immersed in the game. Is that a combat improvement? Not really. But im sure its all they can do atm.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,373
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    ... but with only 7 abbilities it felt way to much like hack and slash witouth tactical and strategical depth... Way to repetitive with repetition of the same buttons time after time..  Espescially when compared to GW2 or even neverwinter combat it fell short by miles

    /confused... ok, I admit GW2 is so not my cup of tea it's not even worth my time for bashing it ( image), but as far as I remember, while it has 14 buttons (F1-4 included), mostly you use just 6-8 buttons... again, I'm not a GW2 guy, so maybe you're right with it.

    But Neverwinter? Come on... :)  (and don't get me wrong, I like it along with the other Cryptic titles) In Neverwinter you have only 6 buttons, Tab included, or 8 if you add the 2 mouse buttons...

    "[..] but with only 7 abbilities it felt way to much like hack and slash witouth tactical and strategical depth [...]   Espescially when compared to [...] neverwinter" <- which has the same number of buttons and a hack&slash kinda gameplay image True, it's much more action-y with mouse-target, but I personally think that's more like a disadvantage, and TSW has it too with shooter mode. And TSW has 8 buttons too, after you have your Aux.

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    my question is, how much did the combat improve? 

    Combat wasn't "improved", it's the same it was. Abilities were changed and tweaked (so a few decks are weaker now, but also new ones appeared), mob density was lowered, and mob hp was adjusted to the tweaked abilities. Plus the starter decks were improved for newcomers. But the combat mechanics are still the same they were before the update.

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    I loved all and everything about the game, yet i never could get into the combat....

     

    not so much the execution, but with only 7 abbilities it felt way to much like hack and slash witouth tactical and strategical depth... Way to repetitive with repetition of the same buttons time after time..  Espescially when compared to GW2 or even neverwinter combat it fell short by miles


    I was only thinking about this the other day, gw2 actually has a worse system than tsw.

    In gw2 you have auto attack, interupts and combos as the main features of their combat system. where as TSW has a very complex system if you actually look underneath the builder/consumer system.

    Take for example elemental force and short fuse:

    how do you maximize your damage for the duration of short fuse?
    do you just spam untill you get ef or do you use other abilities to build your resources faster so you can get more consumers in said timeframe?

    How do i survive a 3 round wave of 6-10 mobs solo?
    There are many ways to solve this problem which is why tsw is the best intems of character development choice.
    Do you burst damage? leetch? stun? cround control? aoe vs dd?

    The depth is there in the combat system if you look / get to the stage where you NEED to look.

    Also, TSW has 8 active, 8 passive abilities.


    my question is, how much did the combat improve?
    You may not be aware of the Augment and AEGIS additions to tsw's combat and character development...

    Augments allow you to modify abilities with an aditional effect, ie fire burns longer, heals also applies a HoT.
    AEGIS allows you to engage evolved filth creatures by shielding against, and applying 3 new damage types.


    image
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  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I was only thinking about this the other day, gw2 actually has a worse system than tsw.

    In gw2 you have auto attack, interupts and combos as the main features of their combat system. where as TSW has a very complex system if you actually look underneath the builder/consumer system.

    Your comparison doesn't fly. GW2 has that modern fluid combat system with feedback that gives you more mobility. When you hit or shoot someone it feels like it. TSW still uses mechanics you see present in Everquest. Which isnt a problem IF you update that system. But you can read all the forums and reviews, "TSW's combat is stale".

     

    You can talk all day about TSW having a "better" technical baseplan with more variation, in which I'd have to agree to a point, but when it comes down to gameplay. it's utter rubbish. PVP is a perfect example. GW2 gives you the option to experiment with all builds and professions, making the PVP E-gaming capable from the start.

     

    TSW's PVP has a gear check. No resets. It also has specific builds you need to use to be succesfull. Flexible? GW2 doesnt know the Holy Trinity. TSW does. You using pistol/shotty? You will never tank or heal. In GW2 most professions can tank/heal/dps but you can't hold aggro which makes a lot of content a dodgy zergfest.

     

    After 3 years, I do not believe TSW will fix these things. It's a "feature". Matchmaking, opening up the skillwheel in PVP, removing the gearcheck, it will never happen.

     

    Just like with what the OP is asking. Combat will remain stale. No matter how much players or haters want it. Cudos for Claretta's sound add-on, though.

     

    P.S.: Don't start with augments or AEGIS. Nobody likes the augment grind and AEGIS is just a cheap HP bar to create more "progression".

     

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140

    I'm kind of on the same page as you with this one, this game in general is a landmark achievement.  But the combat system didn't scale well.  Combat was amazing fun and well paced early on but as you progress you find yourself just pumping 300 shotgun rounds into a big lumbering mob then moving to the next big lumbering mob, which is why me and my roommate ultimately just stopped playing. 

    Combat became too laborious and boringly repetitive with the higher HP mobs that make up the mid to higher level area.  It was like since the weapons and character progression don't scale lets just turn the knob up on mob HP and call it a day.

    I would like to return to this game but not to just run circles around mobs pulling the trigger on my shotgun a hundred times with an occasional heal or damage spell mixed in until the mob drops.

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527

    This was the problem of the two "half games" that released around the same time.

     

    Tera had the combat.

    TSW had the story.

     

    If you combined that peanut butter with that chocolate you would have something special.

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,869
    Originally posted by centkin

    This was the problem of the two "half games" that released around the same time.

     

    Tera had the combat.

    TSW had the story.

     

    If you combined that peanut butter with that chocolate you would have something special.

    I've made this statement before as well. What a great game it would be!

    Currently playing: Red Dead Online, Destiny 2 and MTG: Arena

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    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, BDO, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, EVE, EQ1, EQ2, ESO, Fallen Earth, FFXI, FFXIV, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MxO, Neverwinter, Rift, RoE, Ryzom, Shadowbane, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...and a bunch of others not worth mentioning.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,715
    I've played AO, AoC and TSW and found the combat to be both tedious and frustrating.  I don't know if it's a cultural thing with that company or if they always use the same person to design their combat systems for every game, but it sucks to me either way.

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  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    I've played AO, AoC and TSW and found the combat to be both tedious and frustrating.  I don't know if it's a cultural thing with that company or if they always use the same person to design their combat systems for every game, but it sucks to me either way.

    Have you tried it since Update 11?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts since the changes -- many are reporting combat to be more fun and less "tedious" so I'd be curious to hear. 

  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by centkin

    This was the problem of the two "half games" that released around the same time.

     

    Tera had the combat.

    TSW had the story.

     

    If you combined that peanut butter with that chocolate you would have something special.

    If TSW were a combat grinder, I'd agree.  But it's not, thankfully.

  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52
    Originally posted by Ortwig

    If TSW were a combat grinder, I'd agree.  But it's not, thankfully.

    Totally beside the point. Combat gameplay in TSW is generally considered bad. That you prefer fast action over the more traditional combat mechanics or vice versa is not the issue here.

     

    Its a fact that players in TSW find more pleasure in finding a new rotation then actually doing said rotation for 1 million times or more. Doesnt negate the fact you still do that repetition.

     

    And that's just one aspect that makes combat stale, which you should also be aware of. So if you want to answer the question of the OP, the answer should be "not much".

  • tammerlanetammerlane Member UncommonPosts: 10

    *sigh*

    The position that TSW's combat is boring is growing staler by the moment.  Damn near every MMO has a rotation of skills that players swear is the killer app of skill rotations.  Whether it's limited to the 7 you get ( and the 7 passives) in TSW, or choosing from the multitudes of skills in SWTOR or EQ2 or Lotro or whatever, it's still a rotation of skills.  And the same argument can be pointed at any of those games.

    While it might not be a truly "action combat" or whatever you want to call it game, the fact that you can move around and still fire off skills is refreshing.  And the depth of build creation, once you get a significant amount of the skill wheel unlocked, makes for an incredibly satisfying customization experience.  I think part of the problem many people have is that they either don't understand how the synergies among the skills work, or they don't take the time to create a functional custom deck and rely solely on the pre-mades.  Prior to the enhanced user experience update, going to blue mountains, or from egypt to romania was like cold water to the face.  But it also made me rethink my build.  As did the scenarios.  And that made it fun. 

    Combat in the TSW is a blast.  Yes, it's heavily based on a rotation.  But combat in most games is.

  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52

    *sigh*

    Originally posted by tammerlane
    Whether it's limited to the 7 you get ( and the 7 passives) in TSW, or choosing from the multitudes of skills in SWTOR or EQ2 or Lotro or whatever, it's still a rotation of skills.

    Combat is stale since before launch. You want me to post combat animations and sound fx used in SWTOR or LotRO to compare? I really feel I shouldnt have to because it's obvious. They put effort into it, which results in more enjoyable combat since it has feedback. This does not apply to TSW.

    Originally posted by tammerlane
    While it might not be a truly "action combat" or whatever you want to call it game, the fact that you can move around and still fire off skills is refreshing.

    I already stated before you shouldnt compare TSW with action combat MMOs. You want a cookie for being able to move while doing combat? You get 0 points for that. TSW has its positives and negatives, combat feedback is generally considered as a negative.


    There is a reason that a valued member like Claretta made a mod to improve the soundfx. Totalbiscuit stated back in beta that the feedback and animations were horrendous. It's like saying character customization screen in TSW is top notch. It isnt.

    Originally posted by tammerlane
    And the depth of build creation, once you get a significant amount of the skill wheel unlocked, makes for an incredibly satisfying customization experience.

    I'm not saying the system behind the combat in TSW is bad, i'd say in some ways its better. But if I look at GW2 and see how you can freely experiment in PVP with builds, I see players leave TSW long even before they hit that 100% wheel completion.

    Overall story experience and atmosphere makes up for a lot, but lets get facts straight, combat in TSW is not a blast. It's stale.

     

    You know what the OP was asking, you should know the valid answer to that question.

  • tammerlanetammerlane Member UncommonPosts: 10
    The point is, there are no "facts" in this.  Just a lot of opinions.  You dont like it, fair enough.  The OP wasnt taken by it, also fair enough.  I'm not bothered by the combat, I find it rather fun.  All opinions.
  • RawizRawiz Member UncommonPosts: 584
    Originally posted by tammerlane
    The point is, there are no "facts" in this.  Just a lot of opinions.  You dont like it, fair enough.  The OP wasnt taken by it, also fair enough.  I'm not bothered by the combat, I find it rather fun.  All opinions.

    *sigh*

    A huge amount of players who bought the game felt that combat was terrible and quit.

    This is also visible in Funcom's charts. *sigh*

  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52
    [mod edit]

    Stale combat, meh character customization screen, not enjoyable PVP, not optimised engine, etc. etc. These are facts, and I am not trolling. That you just dont want to see it and keep pushing everything is fine is not OK. It isn't. Untill you stick your head out of the sand, I doubt Funcom can turn its terrible losses into a profit. I hope for 2015 their numbers wont be in the red.

     

    How about you guys stay on topic and discuss the arguments I put in? TSW shines in atmosphere and story but please don't act it's all unicorns and rainbows.

  • UccisoreUccisore Member UncommonPosts: 96

    I can see complaining about TSW combat, but I can't see comparing it to SWTOR or GW2 like they are better. 

    I played through SWTOR to the end of the first planet, and the combat was so brain dead easy that I didn't even have to use or learn about the new abilities I was unlocking- the auto attack you start the game with was enough to win almost every fight.  I also seem to remember that when I 'died' al that actually happened was I sat down on the ground and flashed for a couple seconds, then stood up and resumed the fight like nothing happened.  I think combat that you know you will eventually win if you set a brick on the attack key and walk away counts as boring. 

    GW2 has this weird 'unlock weapon skills' system where you unlock them all so fast that I don't know why they didn't let you start with them- I had made all the weapon attacks my character would ever make after playing the game for like 15 minutes. Talk about stale combat! Sure you unlock abilities, but so many of them are buffs or long cooldown things, and there are so few of them that you don't even get a new ability every level. 

     

    I wish TSW had more to its combat than nukes and heals, but at least I have to look at the screen and try a little bit to win fights, and at least I'm continually getting new kinds of nukes and heals to play with.  

     

    Combat has been boring and dumpy in just about every MMO I've played since Auto Assault.  If you're looking for thrilling, action packed combat, why are you even playing an MMO?

  • 430005430005 Member Posts: 52
    Originally posted by Uccisore

    I can see complaining about TSW combat, but I can't see comparing it to SWTOR or GW2 like they are better. 

    Combat has been boring and dumpy in just about every MMO I've played since Auto Assault.

    Then we will have to agree to disagree. The reviews and numbers say something intirely different.

     

    If you still want facts.

     

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