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Two things I'm really curious about.
ragz45
Member UncommonPosts: 810
I think these two things are major make it or break it elements for me, as far as funding toward the game goes. What type of quest system will we see in the game, and what type of challenge will we see in the game?
As far as quests go...
- Will we see a plethora of quests? Or will quests be few and between, but more epic in nature?
- Will quests have a ! (or some other symbol) floating above the NPC's heads? Or will we be giving vague directions, and left to figure things out on our own?
As far as challenge goes...
- In many older MMO's zones consisted of a wide level range of mobs. While killing that level 10 skeleton, I may have a level 40 giant wonder upon me. Where as in newer MMO's all zones, or areas, are level based. Very rarely will you find a mob outside of your given level range in those zones. Where will the game fall between these two vast spectrums?
- What kind of death penalty will we see in the game? Will we have to do naked corpse runs, lose a bit of xp, or simply get back to where we died at?
- What kind of NPC AI will we see? If I'm fighting a mob, and there are 7 other mobs within easy eyesight of me, will they run to aid their ally, even though they are out of "agro range"? Will agro'ed mobs chain to other mobs they run past? When low on health, will mobs attempt to flee?
- Will there be a faction / reputation type system? IE. if i kill a certain type of creature/npc/etc over and over, will they grow to hate me more and more? If they do indeed hate me, and I become the "Gnoll Killer", will they take actions against me? Such as sending hired thugs against me, or putting a bounty on my head?
Just a few things I've really been wondering about lately when I've been thinking of backing Pantheon. It really does seem like the team there is trying to make something that is more of a throwback to early MMO days, which I'm cool with, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the more advanced game systems like those mentioned above.
Comments
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
A lot of this has been revealed already.
Quests will have an epic feel to them, especially in your character's later levels.
There are no "!" over NPC's heads at all. Quests are meaningful, there will NOT be thousands of them (thank god). The game emphases group play as the main way to advance your character and abilities. Whether it be in dungeons or out in the wild, this game is all about group play and dynamics.
As for the challenges:
It has been stated that there WILL be high level mobs in zones that players should be cautious about. Think East Common lands and the griffons (if unfamiliar with Everquest it means that your level 10 can be easily killed by the level 35 griffon roaming around). So you will need to mind your surroundings.
As for the death penalty, it has been talked about (but not finalized) that death with be in between what EQ and VG was. They said it will have a exp penalty but probably not a corpse run. Rumor has it if you make it back to the corpse you might get exp back from it however. Again that is not set in stone, just ideas they are mulling over right now.
NPC agro will all depend on how close you are to those other NPC within eyesight and what faction they belong to.
Yes 100% confirmed that faction systems are in place and will in fact matter. They will hate you if you continuously kill their friends. But of course, you can always earn your faction back by killing their enemies.
If you become the "Gnoll killer" there is no system in place they will send an assassin after you that i am aware of, although that would be a very cool system. I doubt that's something any game would implement as the Gnoll's wouldn't have enough assassins to send after the thousands of "Gnoll killers"
All this info can be found at https://www.pantheonrotf.com/members/home. I for one am super excited about this game and cannot wait for it to come out! First game I've been excited for in YEARS.
Thunder073 answered all the questions well, but I will expand on his statement of the death penalty being between VG and EQ (especially for those that may not be familiar with either) as it was a question I was curious about and asked on the last Roundtable.
Brad stated that it will be at minimum VG harshness: exp loss + gear respawning on your player at his/her bind point with a chance of recovering some exp if you make it to your corpse/tombstone.
And, maximum EQ: exp loss + naked corpse run with no exp recovery from recovering the corpse, but if corpse is not recovered you will lose your gear due to corpse decay.
As all things pre-alpha though, anything can change, but I doubt his statement regarding the death penalty will - there would be an intense outcry from the majority of the community at any death penalty less harsh than VG, and many, like myself, want the EQ death penalty.
I was going to reply but Thunder and Raidan both did such a great job and explained everything the way I would have explained it, so thank you both very much
I personally hope its a little harder than the Vanguard penalty at the end. I feel like originally Vanguard was harsher at launch, but like everything else it changed. In Vanguard I wouldn't even waste time getting my corpse, which totally defeats the purpose.
I wouldn't mind the penalty being exactly as EQ, but at the very least I think your coin and everything not equipped should remain on your corpse. That way you have the ability to fight back to your body, and theres actually a reason to retrieve it. Anything lighter than that would remove any fear I have of dying. A little exp loss doesn't really hurt my feelings.
I like this idea. Originally, I thought respawning with just access to the items in your hands was not a bad idea (weapons, books, idols, etc...), but this seems like a little bit less harsh alternative. I hope it is more hardcore than Vanguard for sure. I want something that makes me feel like I really NEED to get back to my corpse. Although, there should never be the fear of permanent gear/corpse loss, but I wouldn't mind having to be without it for a week or so if I can't recover it right away.
Here are a couple death penalty ideas. Will be similar to older muds and gmuds.
1. Drop what is in your hands. Keep what is on your body and inventory. EXP/Skill penalty + having to go back and get your weapons.
2. Drop what is in your hands. Certain critters have the chance to roll / strip your body and randomly loot items. Certain critters that wander by have a chance to also randomly loot items if they get within a certain distance from your body. No EXP or Skill penalty.
If you are not stripped it is same as #1.
If you are stripped you must recover what items are left on your body + kill critters to recover what was taken.
3. Certain Lair Monsters / Bosses have a chance to " Eat " you. This causes Great EXP loss and Skill Loss and your items are scattered around their lair or on their body if it isnt a Lair. To be eaten the killing blow must be from a Bite attack.
The only problem with only dropping the items in your hands is it would favor the casters in their effectiveness on a corpse run.
I love a lot of the ideas im seeing in this post and you're ideas are fresh. The one thing I want you to take into consideration is the term " is the juice worth the squeeze ". The core concept of a death penalty is to punish the player enough that death has meaning and enhances game play by introducing a stress factor. My personal thought is that you don't need to introduce gimmicks to accomplish this. That time could be better spent on creating more epic quest lines and introducing new content. The challenge of running back naked to recover gear and items is one that promotes socialization naturally and has many benefits. Asking a player for help should not be a bad thing because this opens the opportunity to make friends. Your systems seem a lot more solo play centric which is why i would stray away from them.
Ya, there will be tons of stuff in your inventory in Pantheon with different armor sets, so it will be crucial to get your corpse. Having all your equipped gear is much easier as it allows you to fight your way back, but there is actually a reason to fight back as opposed to Vanguard.
There should be no permanent loss of corpses. I think the best solution is to allow you to go to a shrine and summon your corpse after 12 hours online, and maybe 48 hours offline. There should of course be a way to summon a corpse within a certain range using some class' ability or for a rogue to sneak and drag it. This would be considerably easier to deal with than EQ, but still give players a fear of death and make retrieving ones corpse of importance.
I also like the idea of scaling risk vs reward.
While I don't think having npcs taking your gear will be compatible with a game with high item rarity, I do think the penalty for dying in certain places should scale up based on what you stand to gain in that area.
For instance, dying in the open world could hit you with 10% xp loss. Dying in an area with group content could result in 20% xp loss. Dying in a raid area would be 30% xp loss. You could also suffer greater damage to your armor, so hope you have a blacksmith in your group. Sidenote: That could actually lead to a whole market for weaponsmiths and armorsmiths. They could make themselves available in and around dungeon to repair armor and weapons for tips.
+1 I really like the scale idea for death, with a bit of work on the scales etc think it has a lot of merit
Then again, one could argue that dying in a dungeon or deep in a raid area is already a steep enough penalty. That said, you almost always have both the people and the healers to mitigate death in group or raid scenarios, so the base percentage increase is probably good. I remember in EQ, the worst time to die was in an out of the way place by yourself. Not necessarily because it was hard to get your corpse, but because it took a long time and there was no one around to rez you. In a dungeon it was actually easier to find help.
I don't have any creative input but I wanted to say that I feel strongly on this topic as well. I think there should not be a permanent loss of corpse/items. I like challenging content and harsh death penalties as much as the next guy but I need a fair opportunity to recoup my losses. By fair, I simply mean the ability to recover the items on my own schedule, with help if necessary, or the ability to replace the items at a reasonable cost.
Overall, I don't like item loss as a death penalty. This either means all gear in the game is as common as a blade of grass or you run the possibility of losing irreplaceable items. This makes the penalty either pointless or too harsh in my opinion. I'd rather see something like skill loss if this is to be a skill based game.
I believe corpses should be recoverable, but at a cost.
Lets say the base death penalty is 10% with the ability to delevel upon death. A high enough level cleric can supply a 90% rez, lowering the penalty to just 1%.
My idea would be to allow the soul binder, or equivalent, to summon a players corpse, even a decayed one. The price, an additional 10% unrecoverable penalty + a steep cost in gold. Now you are losing 20% or, if you receive a 90% rez, 11% xp loss. Dying still hurts, but you don't lose weeks, months or years or gear progression.
To make things a little harsher, you could impose a minimum wait time on corpse summoning: 24 or 48 hours from time of death.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I don't mind having a shrine or something to rez your corpse at, I just don't like the idea of being able to instantly retrieve your corpse after dying. Thats basically what it was in Vanguard and I literally never got my corpse because xp loss has never mattered to me (I actually enjoy getting exp and the gameplay associated with it).
Fresh? Not really. Those are just going back to what death penalties originally were.. In games that were all about community.
How are either of those 3 or a combo thereof solo centric?
If you went with a scaling system like this it should be the inverse. 30% if your soloing, 20% grouping, 10% raiding. When you group with other people you are inherently taking on additional risks, if you penalize people for grouping, no one will group. Everyone will solo, where they have the most control over the outcome of a fight.
Furthermore this system would actually encourage people to group up (which is always a good thing), as they would have safety in numbers, and get a lower penalty on death.
But if you are grouped, you should get reduced XP/ mob unless you are attacking more challenging content. Thus encouraging groups to take on things that are actually challenging to them as a whole, as to fight mindlessly grinding away at things, which leads to boredom.
You are then scaling risk down as reward goes up.
Sounds like you want to punish people for soloing. Soloing will already leave you handicapped and unable to complete most content. The reward is therefore low, thus the risk low. Also, like I said, dying alone is always more painful than in a group. Unless you play a healer, you may end up eating that exp death, whereas in a group or raid, a rez is almost certain.
Your risk goes up when you group rather than down, due to the unknown nature of your fellow players. Also as I said, if your grouping, systems should be built into place to encourage attempting even more difficult content.
With the system you first proposed, a larger xp penalty for death, no one is ever going to want to raid progression content. Anything where they might potentially die 6-10 times a night, with 30% xp loss each death? Think this through...
The pantheon dev's have already said they want to return to a social game where grouping is highly encouraged, if you're expecting to solo most of the time in a game like that, you may be in for a rude awakening. Yes you could solo in EQ1 with a few classes, but it wasn't the norm.
I think everything through that I post.
A 30% death with a 90%+ rez. (on par with EQ1).
The system will already be in place to encourage grouping. Its called item progression.
I said soloing leaves you handicapped and unable to complete most content. That is something I'm fine with, not an attempt to champion the cause of solo content. I'm just saying its pointless to punish people who don't have a group and have little to gain from soloing in the grand scheme of things. Its also contrary to the risk vs reward tenets on the Pantheon site.
Remember the numbers like 30% is just a place holder you could set it to what ever you need to, you said no one would raid in this situation, but remember the penalty for death is greater but in group content like dungeons and raids the rewards are also greater ala risk Vs reward.
I think you're misrepresenting risk and it's resulting in backward logic. Risk doesn't go up because you're grouping, it goes down because it's safer to group. Risk only goes up when in a group when you're experiencing "more challenging" content that also has far greater rewards. This is the logical conclusion of risk vs reward even if you think otherwise. It is not a matter of opinion.
Some people.... suck, but this is a fact of life and is a completely different kind of risk. I won't go out on the street at night by myself because it's not safe. I would however if I had a couple of friends with me, but I would not take the loud mouth drunk that is guaranteed to pick a fight when it's not necessary. This all falls under the umbrella of having a real community in the game.