Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
Wait what? Unity uses the same c# delegate event system everywhere else in the world that other compilers use for c# and at its base is written in c++ in which you can utilize the same systems available in Unreal 4.
I work on both engines. I've written grid-based turn-based systems in both engines using c++ or c# using the SAME delegate system I wrote from scratch in both engines.
If you want to actually talk about differences and not just make up some lies, you can say how an engine like Unreal 4 can do realtime adjustments to navmesh objects and have navmesh agents respond appropriately, something that is extremely hard to do in Unity 5 without rewriting the engine components in C++.
Originally posted by Masa1 Why are you all impressed about unity? If you compare Unity/Flash/Java with language like C++ those 3 are just TERRIBLE performance wise. Sure they allow devs to code faster, allows to game to run on multiple platforms and so on.. All of those are just things that bring benefit only for the DEVELOPER/PUBLISHER not for players.
Unity is written in c++
I understand you just know nothing about programming, it's ok. Unity is horrible performance-wise when people do not know how to program. Which unfortunately happens a lot nowadays since these engines are catered more towards content creators than programmers. Yet a good coder can make magic with Unity.
Doesn't matter what's it written in. REAL programs are compiled and they run directly on machine. Piece of shit programs made with Unity have to call Unity functions and Unity is the one executing them. That's one extra step which RUINS the performance of any Unity games.
Unity is good for small games just like Flash and Java are but huge MMORPG made by Unity is going to be a piece of shit performance wise.
Originally posted by Masa1 Why are you all impressed about unity? If you compare Unity/Flash/Java with language like C++ those 3 are just TERRIBLE performance wise. Sure they allow devs to code faster, allows to game to run on multiple platforms and so on.. All of those are just things that bring benefit only for the DEVELOPER/PUBLISHER not for players.
Unity is written in c++
I understand you just know nothing about programming, it's ok. Unity is horrible performance-wise when people do not know how to program. Which unfortunately happens a lot nowadays since these engines are catered more towards content creators than programmers. Yet a good coder can make magic with Unity.
Doesn't matter what's it written in. REAL programs are compiled and they run directly on machine. Piece of shit programs made with Unity have to call Unity functions and Unity is the one executing them. That's one extra step which RUINS the performance of any Unity games.
Unity is good for small games just like Flash and Java are but huge MMORPG made by Unity is going to be a piece of shit performance wise.
I have zero clue how engines work and what not, but find it odd that a company would choose to work with something if there was no way to make it work on an acceptable level. Maybe they are hoping they can figure it out or something, but that is a pretty huge risk to take, with their own and backer funding. Haven't looked into it much, but Pantheon and SOTA are both going with Unity as well. Maybe it is just a matter of time/talent to get it to work on a mmo scale?
Originally posted by Masa1 Why are you all impressed about unity? If you compare Unity/Flash/Java with language like C++ those 3 are just TERRIBLE performance wise. Sure they allow devs to code faster, allows to game to run on multiple platforms and so on.. All of those are just things that bring benefit only for the DEVELOPER/PUBLISHER not for players.
Unity is written in c++
I understand you just know nothing about programming, it's ok. Unity is horrible performance-wise when people do not know how to program. Which unfortunately happens a lot nowadays since these engines are catered more towards content creators than programmers. Yet a good coder can make magic with Unity.
Doesn't matter what's it written in. REAL programs are compiled and they run directly on machine. Piece of shit programs made with Unity have to call Unity functions and Unity is the one executing them. That's one extra step which RUINS the performance of any Unity games.
Unity is good for small games just like Flash and Java are but huge MMORPG made by Unity is going to be a piece of shit performance wise.
Because none of us developed code without compilers. Real code. You know machine language. That is real programming boy.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
I am also worried about this, the large scale PvP performance is crucial for CF. That topic is typically ignored by pro-Unity folks, they prefer to show wonderful landscapes and all kinds of shiny but-not-so-MMO stuff. (And BTW, Ori is lovely indeed ). Just to clarify, I am neither pro not anti-U but just curious about the PvP performance, and based on what I`ve read so far Unity 5 might actually be the best choice for team with this budget and schedule.
That being said, I would be thankful if someone more knowledgeable than I am (what I know of Unity 5 is based on 15 minutes of Googling) would comment on the following:
1) When asked about Unity 5 PvP performance, ACE programmer said this. Note that it was the second question asked (amongst the expected bunch of WOW!s and Nice!s), but he answered the 1st one and then went on to 3rd etc. The question was repeated by some other guy, again - no answer, and only when the first guy asked again (that is, third time overall) the answer came.
What I am reading from this reply is that they probably didn`t have any large scale testing but they hope that Unity 5 improvements will prove sufficient!?
I doubt we will see huge battles in CF, I'm sure they are going to drop the bomb that the campaigns will be capped at like 50-60 players after the KS is done. I don't think Unity can do all the twitch based PvP in a huge scale without falling on its face.
Man, that would cause waves of volcanoes and earthquakes on forums followed by massive riots on streets By the way, Thomas Blair described typical Crowfall`s Campaign size approx as "half of Eastern Kingdoms" - so imagine Vanilla WoW with, say, 200 players scattered all around. It would be virtually a ghost town.
Of course, they might adjust the population due to engine hiccups, but a couple hundred per Campaign should be minimum I`d say.
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
just as a point... SWTOR is a terrible example of what hero engine can do... the fact is when SWTOR was made, it was build on an alpha version of Hero engine when the program wasnt even for sale.. and then hacked apart by bioware to try to suit their needs for what it was lacking due to being a product not ready for large scale commercial use.
this is what happens when you try to throw money at a problem instead of do things the right way. Hero engine now is actually quite good at doing what it does.
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
Wait what? Unity uses the same c# delegate event system everywhere else in the world that other compilers use for c# and at its base is written in c++ in which you can utilize the same systems available in Unreal 4.
If you don't have the Unity Source code then you can't use C++ and you can't optimize for performance at all. Performance issue are impossible to nail down since the engine is essentially a black box. Don't even get me started on C#, it's a crappy language.
If you want to actually talk about differences and not just make up some lies, you can say how an engine like Unreal 4 can do realtime adjustments to navmesh objects and have navmesh agents respond appropriately, something that is extremely hard to do in Unity 5 without rewriting the engine components in C++.
There is no need to go into specifics because the list would be endless if you compare what you can do in UDK compared to Unity.
Massive PvP with hundreds of players on screen will not happen in Unity unless they re-write the core. The engine is just not able to cope with that amount of data.
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
just as a point... SWTOR is a terrible example of what hero engine can do... the fact is when SWTOR was made, it was build on an alpha version of Hero engine when the program wasnt even for sale.. and then hacked apart by bioware to try to suit their needs for what it was lacking due to being a product not ready for large scale commercial use.
SWTOR is actually pretty good if you ask me considering hos shitty the Hero engine is now. They did a great job at rewriting it.
this is what happens when you try to throw money at a problem instead of do things the right way. Hero engine now is actually quite good at doing what it does.
And what would that be? The engine is slow, bloated has hundreds of bugs and memory leaks. Graphics and performance is still back in 2000.
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
just as a point... SWTOR is a terrible example of what hero engine can do... the fact is when SWTOR was made, it was build on an alpha version of Hero engine when the program wasnt even for sale.. and then hacked apart by bioware to try to suit their needs for what it was lacking due to being a product not ready for large scale commercial use.
SWTOR is actually pretty good if you ask me considering hos shitty the Hero engine is now. They did a great job at rewriting it.
this is what happens when you try to throw money at a problem instead of do things the right way. Hero engine now is actually quite good at doing what it does.
And what would that be? The engine is slow, bloated has hundreds of bugs and memory leaks. Graphics and performance is still back in 2000.
i guess we'll see when repopulation comes out.. considering they waited for a release candidate and use the latest iterations of the Hero engine... to see what they can do with it... graphics also come down to the developer for one, what they design to run in it.. and it's literally a base engine, whatever bugs or memory leaks you get depend on you... the same as with UE 3/4, Unity or any other engine...
Hero itself does what it's supposed to do and continually gets improved and worked on just like the others do. as i said SWTOR was using an alpha build with basically nothing in it and didnt particularly do a good job at fixing anything considering it was still broken as shit at launch.. swtor now however is a decent game now they have a handle on things.
Originally posted by Masa1 Why are you all impressed about unity? If you compare Unity/Flash/Java with language like C++ those 3 are just TERRIBLE performance wise. Sure they allow devs to code faster, allows to game to run on multiple platforms and so on.. All of those are just things that bring benefit only for the DEVELOPER/PUBLISHER not for players.
Unity is written in c++
I understand you just know nothing about programming, it's ok. Unity is horrible performance-wise when people do not know how to program. Which unfortunately happens a lot nowadays since these engines are catered more towards content creators than programmers. Yet a good coder can make magic with Unity.
Doesn't matter what's it written in. REAL programs are compiled and they run directly on machine. Piece of shit programs made with Unity have to call Unity functions and Unity is the one executing them. That's one extra step which RUINS the performance of any Unity games.
Unity is good for small games just like Flash and Java are but huge MMORPG made by Unity is going to be a piece of shit performance wise.
Because none of us developed code without compilers. Real code. You know machine language. That is real programming boy.
Compiler handles the conversion extremely well. If the compiler fails at some performance critical part you can also write machine language inside of C++ code.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Only on Windows 10 and no one wants to use that shit OS.
Additionally theres alot of misinformation on unity, so I'm just going to link this here to show you guys some games that have been developed using unity.
Go to the bottom, click featured games made in unity.
Wow ... I've heard of only one of those games (edit: 2). Some look cool though. Looks like a great platform for indie development. Tempted to try Ori though someday.
My only concern is if it is a wise choice for a mass pvp mmo game.
Unfortunately it is not. It's not a real event based engine written in C++ like UDK. It's good for 2/2.5D games with limited size. It's good for 3D games with limited areas/size. It's not able to cope with the load of full open world MMO requirements.
Don't get me wrong, Unity has it's place and Ori is a good example what you can do with it. But AAA MMO quality is not something it can deliver, it's about as good as Hero engine in that respect and that one is completely unusable for anything serious or without a total re-write lie SWTOR did.
I am also worried about this, the large scale PvP performance is crucial for CF. That topic is typically ignored by pro-Unity folks, they prefer to show wonderful landscapes and all kinds of shiny but-not-so-MMO stuff. (And BTW, Ori is lovely indeed ). Just to clarify, I am neither pro not anti-U but just curious about the PvP performance, and based on what I`ve read so far Unity 5 might actually be the best choice for team with this budget and schedule.
That being said, I would be thankful if someone more knowledgeable than I am (what I know of Unity 5 is based on 15 minutes of Googling) would comment on the following:
1) When asked about Unity 5 PvP performance, ACE programmer said this. Note that it was the second question asked (amongst the expected bunch of WOW!s and Nice!s), but he answered the 1st one and then went on to 3rd etc. The question was repeated by some other guy, again - no answer, and only when the first guy asked again (that is, third time overall) the answer came.
What I am reading from this reply is that they probably didn`t have any large scale testing but they hope that Unity 5 improvements will prove sufficient!?
I doubt we will see huge battles in CF, I'm sure they are going to drop the bomb that the campaigns will be capped at like 50-60 players after the KS is done. I don't think Unity can do all the twitch based PvP in a huge scale without falling on its face.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Only on Windows 10 and no one wants to use that shit OS.
Compared to what? Please say Linux, please say Linux.
If you're still intent on taking that bait, then you might want to hop in your time machine and go back to the early 2000s before Linux became a horribly bloating POS itself. In fact, if you actually plotted the level of "goodness" between Windows and Linux, you'd probably see steady progression towards "More Gooder" with Windows and a steady progression towards "Not Gooder" for Linux. Just sayin!!!
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Only on Windows 10 and no one wants to use that shit OS.
Compared to what? Please say Linux, please say Linux.
If you're still intent on taking that bait, then you might want to hop in your time machine and go back to the early 2000s before Linux became a horribly bloating POS itself. In fact, if you actually plotted the level of "goodness" between Windows and Linux, you'd probably see steady progression towards "More Gooder" with Windows and a steady progression towards "Not Gooder" for Linux. Just sayin!!!
Windows XP and 7 are fine alternatives. They have all the required things that OS should have. The only problem is Microsoft. Ending the support for security updates means that they become unusable when they have enough known vulnerabilities. Microsoft is also trying to artificially force people out of them by making their new programs only for their next new OS.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Only on Windows 10 and no one wants to use that shit OS.
Compared to what? Please say Linux, please say Linux.
If you're still intent on taking that bait, then you might want to hop in your time machine and go back to the early 2000s before Linux became a horribly bloating POS itself. In fact, if you actually plotted the level of "goodness" between Windows and Linux, you'd probably see steady progression towards "More Gooder" with Windows and a steady progression towards "Not Gooder" for Linux. Just sayin!!!
Windows XP and 7 are fine alternatives. They have all the required things that OS should have. Microsoft is only trying to force people out of them artificially by stopping security updates and making their new programs for their new shit OS.
I agree, XP was soooo good. I do remember ME though. It actually still gives me nightmares. 7 was pretty good to me, too. 8 is kinda, meh. Love the quick boots, hate some other stuff. That can all be fixed, though. I'm not too concerned with 10 yet, only because it's not the worst thing I've seen. If it is, you can bet they'll have something quick on its heels though.
Comments
Wait what? Unity uses the same c# delegate event system everywhere else in the world that other compilers use for c# and at its base is written in c++ in which you can utilize the same systems available in Unreal 4.
I work on both engines. I've written grid-based turn-based systems in both engines using c++ or c# using the SAME delegate system I wrote from scratch in both engines.
If you want to actually talk about differences and not just make up some lies, you can say how an engine like Unreal 4 can do realtime adjustments to navmesh objects and have navmesh agents respond appropriately, something that is extremely hard to do in Unity 5 without rewriting the engine components in C++.
Doesn't matter what's it written in. REAL programs are compiled and they run directly on machine. Piece of shit programs made with Unity have to call Unity functions and Unity is the one executing them. That's one extra step which RUINS the performance of any Unity games.
Unity is good for small games just like Flash and Java are but huge MMORPG made by Unity is going to be a piece of shit performance wise.
I have zero clue how engines work and what not, but find it odd that a company would choose to work with something if there was no way to make it work on an acceptable level. Maybe they are hoping they can figure it out or something, but that is a pretty huge risk to take, with their own and backer funding. Haven't looked into it much, but Pantheon and SOTA are both going with Unity as well. Maybe it is just a matter of time/talent to get it to work on a mmo scale?
Because none of us developed code without compilers. Real code. You know machine language. That is real programming boy.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Man, that would cause waves of volcanoes and earthquakes on forums followed by massive riots on streets
By the way, Thomas Blair described typical Crowfall`s Campaign size approx as "half of Eastern Kingdoms" - so imagine Vanilla WoW with, say, 200 players scattered all around. It would be virtually a ghost town.
Of course, they might adjust the population due to engine hiccups, but a couple hundred per Campaign should be minimum I`d say.
just as a point... SWTOR is a terrible example of what hero engine can do... the fact is when SWTOR was made, it was build on an alpha version of Hero engine when the program wasnt even for sale.. and then hacked apart by bioware to try to suit their needs for what it was lacking due to being a product not ready for large scale commercial use.
this is what happens when you try to throw money at a problem instead of do things the right way. Hero engine now is actually quite good at doing what it does.
Massive PvP with hundreds of players on screen will not happen in Unity unless they re-write the core. The engine is just not able to cope with that amount of data.
i guess we'll see when repopulation comes out.. considering they waited for a release candidate and use the latest iterations of the Hero engine... to see what they can do with it... graphics also come down to the developer for one, what they design to run in it.. and it's literally a base engine, whatever bugs or memory leaks you get depend on you... the same as with UE 3/4, Unity or any other engine...
Hero itself does what it's supposed to do and continually gets improved and worked on just like the others do. as i said SWTOR was using an alpha build with basically nothing in it and didnt particularly do a good job at fixing anything considering it was still broken as shit at launch.. swtor now however is a decent game now they have a handle on things.
Compiler handles the conversion extremely well. If the compiler fails at some performance critical part you can also write machine language inside of C++ code.
Unity 5 was rewritten to use DirectX 12. DirectX 12 is finally truly multi-core aware, so it is likely that a new Unity game running on Windows 10 will be the faster than any engine that exists today.
Only on Windows 10 and no one wants to use that shit OS.
No, campaigns encompass an entire server.
Compared to what? Please say Linux, please say Linux.
If you're still intent on taking that bait, then you might want to hop in your time machine and go back to the early 2000s before Linux became a horribly bloating POS itself. In fact, if you actually plotted the level of "goodness" between Windows and Linux, you'd probably see steady progression towards "More Gooder" with Windows and a steady progression towards "Not Gooder" for Linux. Just sayin!!!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play.
For perspecitve take the Unreal Engine and just take a look at how many very different type of games where made using it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games
Windows XP and 7 are fine alternatives. They have all the required things that OS should have. The only problem is Microsoft. Ending the support for security updates means that they become unusable when they have enough known vulnerabilities. Microsoft is also trying to artificially force people out of them by making their new programs only for their next new OS.
I agree, XP was soooo good. I do remember ME though. It actually still gives me nightmares. 7 was pretty good to me, too. 8 is kinda, meh. Love the quick boots, hate some other stuff. That can all be fixed, though. I'm not too concerned with 10 yet, only because it's not the worst thing I've seen. If it is, you can bet they'll have something quick on its heels though.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------