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Why did the Kickstarter fail?

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  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Edited: taking down this post because I don't want to offend anyone even if their a troll
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    Originally posted by djcincy
    Originally posted by Buccaneer
    Originally posted by Down.N.Coined
    Originally posted by Adjuvant1
    Originally posted by Down.N.Coined
    Originally posted by djcincy
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     

     

     

    My intent was to communicate 45k went to himself, while 20-25k was paid to each of his contracted devs at that point in time. There are sources out there affirming that reality, as well as a couple of the contracted devs. If it was not true, I would imagine we would be hearing a much louder message from those original devs, but they haven't said a word for nearly a year. If Brad did what most people now are saying he did, there would easily be a legal case against him and several lawsuits. But there is nothing.

     

    The guy just decided to pay himself more money than his contracted devs, and people don't think he should have paid himself at all. He admitted he shouldn't have. I mean come on, most fast food workers do terrible things to every meal you eat. Most banks utterly screw you in the financial products they sell. Most people in the world have bents towards doing the wrong things now and then, and at the very least they make lots of mistakes and have periods of exercising bad judgment. The way this man is being dragged through the fire and crucified almost daily is ridiculous.

     

    I also find it very telling that the Brad/Pantheon hate-train keeps rolling heavily along, with new rumors and misinformation popping up every single day over a year after it happened, while stories like this ( http://www.gamespot.com/articles/after-raising-114-000-on-kickstarter-dev-goes-sile/1100-6425367/ ) were just a quick blip on the gaming world's radar. Think what you want of McQuaid and what he did with the money back then, but he's still here working on the game with his team and they're making measurable forward progress.

    Hi ya Brad -  I don't blame ya for not using your usual account.

    I have to agree.  Too much is made out of the mis-handling of funds.  Everyone got paid, just some more than others which got pissed their paycheck was not greater.

    Alright I concede.  The level of stupidity on this thread just hit the limit.

    It doesn't take a genius bud.  Brand new account made today and the only posts defending Brad.  The funny thing is, I tend to agree, to much is made out of the funds and it's mostly Brad and the game haters that try and blow it out of proportion.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    I only wish Brad would have taken all the money so he could have had more to give to the current staff that is actually willing to work pro bono instead of just talking about it like the last bunch.  When the kickstarter failed they were on the way out.  Writing was on the wall.  He kept Pantheon money to keep developing Pantheon, and sent them on their way.

    Game development is a harsh game.


  • Down.N.CoinedDown.N.Coined Member Posts: 5
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    Originally posted by Down.N.Coined
    You continuing to cite 120k in your response to me is only proving my point, sadly. And that, too, is unethical.

    Quotation marks.  This is a citation. I've always cited the lesser figure; I quoted another poster who wrote the greater figure, and just now cited him.  However, it seems like you're splitting hairs.

    As for "why" or what I think it's adding: I'm responding to an observed resurgence of people more than willing to pat Brad on the back and send him on his way, ablating the enormity of what he did.  Because this kind of thing does go on, not just for Pantheon, and it needs to be recognized.  With a background in business, I need to be clear about where I stand on issues like this.

    120k raised is different from claiming Brad took $120,000.

     

    Also, you're actually helping to define the heart of what's going on here. You see people interested in what Pantheon currently is and is becoming, people talking about the game, and you interpret that as people "patting Brad on the back."

     

    Let's use another example that may be helpful. When people vote for the President, often they vote for one that they actually have quite a few problems with, sometimes major problems with. But they vote for them because they don't want to vote for the alternative.

     

    Show me another game that is doing what Pantheon is doing and I'll go support that game.

     

    Lastly, I don't think what McQuaid did was enormous. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it this huge massive thing that the world needs to stop turning until everyone knows? Come on man, not even the original devs who got screwed are speaking as loudly as you are.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,825

    It was aimed at a niche audience. And among that niche many of its players felt that they couldn't trust the guy behind it.

    Not exactly a recipe for success.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • NetspookNetspook Member UncommonPosts: 1,583
    Originally posted by Raagnarz
    One and only one reason Brad. Brad is a terrible business manager at best, and a liar and thief at the worst. He might be a great idea guy but he has zero clue how to manage his company's money. Except this time it wasn't his company's money, it would have been our money. Sorry not happening. I've backed Camelot Unchained, Shards, now Crowfall all for over $100 each. I'm not burnt out on KS, I'm burnt out of Brad spewing lies and have zero faith in his ability to run a company. He really did think he could throw together some hastily written ideas, slap his name on it, and launch an almost million dollar KS on that alone. His arrogance and lack of respect for us as a consumer base was insulting. I've seen small indie projects with one man working on his dream that have put together more professional KS campaigns than this supposed industry genius who has made millions throughout his career.

     

    I've never supported any KS, and I never will, because I refuse to pay for nothing less than a finished product.

    Apart from that, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

    It's all because it's Brad.

  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146

    Yeah from what I heard he embezzeled 40 million dollars from senior citizens then purchased a pool full of cocaine that he used to lure in underage hookers to start a shoe factory.  Brad Mcquaid is a terrible person.

     

    The dude paid himself twice as much as the other devs, he took 5 months worth of salary with the assumption he was landing a half million in funding.   Dude isn't hitler.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,003
    Originally posted by Down.N.Coined
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    Originally posted by Down.N.Coined
    You continuing to cite 120k in your response to me is only proving my point, sadly. And that, too, is unethical.

    Quotation marks.  This is a citation. I've always cited the lesser figure; I quoted another poster who wrote the greater figure, and just now cited him.  However, it seems like you're splitting hairs.

    As for "why" or what I think it's adding: I'm responding to an observed resurgence of people more than willing to pat Brad on the back and send him on his way, ablating the enormity of what he did.  Because this kind of thing does go on, not just for Pantheon, and it needs to be recognized.  With a background in business, I need to be clear about where I stand on issues like this.

    120k raised is different from claiming Brad took $120,000.

     

    Also, you're actually helping to define the heart of what's going on here. You see people interested in what Pantheon currently is and is becoming, people talking about the game, and you interpret that as people "patting Brad on the back."

     

    Let's use another example that may be helpful. When people vote for the President, often they vote for one that they actually have quite a few problems with, sometimes major problems with. But they vote for them because they don't want to vote for the alternative.

     

    Show me another game that is doing what Pantheon is doing and I'll go support that game.

     

    Lastly, I don't think what McQuaid did was enormous. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it this huge massive thing that the world needs to stop turning until everyone knows? Come on man, not even the original devs who got screwed are speaking as loudly as you are.

    Please don't put words in my mouth.  I never claimed the figure was 120k.  I responded to a post (linked to in my post that you quoted) in which it was argued that it wasn't that big of a deal even if the figure was 120, because 120k was "pocket change".  As I've written before, the exact figure isn't important; it says a lot about the person leading the company if s/he is willing to borrow five months in advance against him/herself, as the leader of a startup.  You are obfuscating the issue.

    I was also responding to the poster who claimed that Brad "never took a dime" from Kickstarter, and had reinstated all the funds he borrowed from his company's private campaign (linking to an article that evidenced nothing of the sort).

    It's not 'all cool', and I will not 'just go with the flow, man'.  There are people reading these forums that may at some point be facing similar business decisions themselves.

    It's great that Brad seems intent on following through with his promise, but the title of this thread isn't "Check out Pantheon's progress", as much as some might like it to be; it's "Why did the Kickstarter fail?"

    It's kind of hard to talk about Kickstarter without talking about business and crowdfunding, and Pantheon is what you might call a loaded topic in those areas.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100

    I think Pantheon should partner with A&E for a documentary of making the game. "Making the Game: the Pantheon Experience". There's enough drama around Brad and the project in general (we're just volunteers trying to make your dream come true!), it might be a big hit on sister channel Lifetime. Disney, half owner of A&E could open an epic "Pantheon Experience" ride at its themeparks and a whole new generation of children at Hong Kong Disneyland can introduce the game to the Asian market.

    Who needs kickstarter when you have Mickey power.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by djcincy
    Yeah from what I heard he embezzeled 40 million dollars from senior citizens then purchased a pool full of cocaine that he used to lure in underage hookers to start a shoe factory.  Brad Mcquaid is a terrible person. The dude paid himself twice as much as the other devs, he took 5 months worth of salary with the assumption he was landing a half million in funding.   Dude isn't hitler.
    Nobody said he was Hitler lol. But a lot of people think he is one reason why the kick starter failed. See topic title and come join us back on earth.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by djcincy
    Yeah from what I heard he embezzeled 40 million dollars from senior citizens then purchased a pool full of cocaine that he used to lure in underage hookers to start a shoe factory.  Brad Mcquaid is a terrible person.

     

     

    The dude paid himself twice as much as the other devs, he took 5 months worth of salary with the assumption he was landing a half million in funding.   Dude isn't hitler.


    Nobody said he was Hitler lol. But a lot of people think he is one reason why the kick starter failed. See topic title and come join us back on earth.

     

    EDIT-I quoted the wrong person - meant to quote the person being quoted by the person I quoted =P

     

    ...So evidently you think the failure had nothing to do with Brad? the one in charge?

    Look, real or imagined, his reputation is tarnished to the point where most objective people would not trust him to lead a project. I think the proof is easily found in the archives when Pantheon was trying to get crowdfunded. Whether or not there is justification behind his bad reputation (I feel there is, but thats my personal opinion) there are too many questions surrounding trust and the perception of a shady guy. perception will trump all else oin matters like this.

     

    So..regardless of the truth of the many, many stories and accusations surrounding Brad (which I will not rehash) and even if the huge amount of his co-workers are lying about Brad- the perception is set in stone.

     

    He may be the most honest guy in the world with integrity beyond the norm and all the accusations and rumors are total lies and fabrication- he's still poison in a PR sense. That is what you 'defenders' need to grasp. Its the same reason OJ stopped getting PR jobs after the allegations of murder thatr he was found NOT GUILTY of. He was poison. Again,not debating the guild or innocence of OJ Simpson but the perception (even being found not guilty) that a name will carry with it based on allegation- True or not.

    A different project lead with Brad as a employee would have made a massive amount of difference.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Jacxolope

     

    ...So evidently you think the failure had nothing to do with Brad? the one in charge?

    Look, real or imagined, his reputation is tarnished to the point where most objective people would not trust him to lead a project. I think the proof is easily found in the archives when Pantheon was trying to get crowdfunded. Whether or not there is justification behind his bad reputation (I feel there is, but thats my personal opinion) there are too many questions surrounding trust and the perception of a shady guy. perception will trump all else oin matters like this.

     

    So..regardless of the truth of the many, many stories and accusations surrounding Brad (which I will not rehash) and even if the huge amount of his co-workers are lying about Brad- the perception is set in stone.

     

    He may be the most honest guy in the world with integrity beyond the norm and all the accusations and rumors are total lies and fabrication- he's still poison in a PR sense. That is what you 'defenders' need to grasp. Its the same reason OJ stopped getting PR jobs after the allegations of murder thatr he was found NOT GUILTY of. He was poison. Again,not debating the guild or innocence of OJ Simpson but the perception (even being found not guilty) that a name will carry with it based on allegation- True or not.

    A different project lead with Brad as a employee would have made a massive amount of difference.

    Oh well, its moot.  No one else in the industry seems to even understand the core concepts that made MMORPGs enjoyable early on other than Brad and the Pantheon team.  If there was other alternatives for this type of game I'm sure many people here might be rooting for another game, but there isn't.  Not even close.  So people should either get on board or do the rest of us a favor and stop trolling these threads.


  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by Jacxolope
    Originally posted by Foomerang
    Originally posted by djcincy
    Yeah from what I heard he embezzeled 40 million dollars from senior citizens then purchased a pool full of cocaine that he used to lure in underage hookers to start a shoe factory.  Brad Mcquaid is a terrible person.

     

    The dude paid himself twice as much as the other devs, he took 5 months worth of salary with the assumption he was landing a half million in funding.   Dude isn't hitler.

    Nobody said he was Hitler lol. But a lot of people think he is one reason why the kick starter failed. See topic title and come join us back on earth.

    ...So evidently you think the failure had nothing to do with Brad? the one in charge?

    Look, real or imagined, his reputation is tarnished to the point where most objective people would not trust him to lead a project. I think the proof is easily found in the archives when Pantheon was trying to get crowdfunded. Whether or not there is justification behind his bad reputation (I feel there is, but thats my personal opinion) there are too many questions surrounding trust and the perception of a shady guy. perception will trump all else oin matters like this.

     

    So..regardless of the truth of the many, many stories and accusations surrounding Brad (which I will not rehash) and even if the huge amount of his co-workers are lying about Brad- the perception is set in stone.

     

    He may be the most honest guy in the world with integrity beyond the norm and all the accusations and rumors are total lies and fabrication- he's still poison in a PR sense. That is what you 'defenders' need to grasp. Its the same reason OJ stopped getting PR jobs after the allegations of murder thatr he was found NOT GUILTY of. He was poison. Again,not debating the guild or innocence of OJ Simpson but the perception (even being found not guilty) that a name will carry with it based on allegation- True or not.

    A different project lead with Brad as a employee would have made a massive amount of difference.

    Foomerang, you too should join us on earth. Your own post there, only by coincidence, had anything legit to be found in it. And it took Jacxolope's post to be able to justify that legitimacy in your post. This is to say I am stretching to give your post any reason to not be deleted as filler.

     

    Whereas yes Jacxolope, you are correct on one side of that sword... There would perhaps be more trust, had Pantheon been approached and presented in the manner you state. It is also true that without Brad McQuaid attached to Pantheon, we would not be having this conversation.

     

    In which case my computer has PWI (which I suspect will be shut down by this year's end), EVE (which I still have a few months of building particular skills up to level 4 each before I start playing), TERA (a nice knockaround game here and there up until you reach 60 with a character) and EQ2 (which who the hell knows what fate is in store for Daybreak's games' list). I even considered FFXIVARR's free trial before deciding to purchase it. That ended with my uninstalling because I am not paying $11 on some one-time password key for a "free" trial (but I may still yet get into that one).

     

    As you can see, the choices are not really so abundant in the genre. I would take Vanguard being reopened and then bug & glitch fixes worked on before some sort of relaunch... Over everything I am aware of at the moment. If that were the case, I would likely be more hesitant to jump on board the Pantheon bandwagon. But that is not the case, is it? Otherwise, perhaps you or some other poster would like to direct me to any other choice similar to EQ1 and VG, at least up to par with VG on "up to date-ness". *crickets chirping* 

     

    And there is the issue.

     

    Do you seriously think Brad McQuaid would be stepping down from being the lead in a team, even if they stated that is what happened? I would guess not at all. I sure as **** would not do so myself given my own projects. I certainly would not expect McQuaid to do so, except as idle talk for the naive.

     

     

    Originally posted by Dullahan

    @ Jacxolope (as not having meant to cut off this reply)

    Oh well, its moot.  No one else in the industry seems to even understand the core concepts that made MMORPGs enjoyable early on other than Brad and the Pantheon team.  If there was other alternatives for this type of game I'm sure many people here might be rooting for another game, but there isn't.  Not even close.  So people should either get on board or do the rest of us a favor and stop trolling these threads.

    #Slayed

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619

    I'm just going by the fact that the majority of people who answered the op's question cited brad as a possible reason.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 713
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I'm just going by the fact that the majority of people who answered the op's question cited brad as a possible reason.

    Well, when you get older, you will realize to base your thoughts (and they can really exist) on your own wisdom. Real facts from said wisdom, has shown more times than I can count just how wrong any majority of people can be. History actually teaches that too. I would suggest Art History as being more accurate than any old history class though. Personally, I also would suggest ancient history, as many stories the majority of people believe these days have been around since ancient times.

     

    Brad may have been a reason, but I can assure you my last post most certainly answered that. Again, you will learn how to think when you get older, so it is okay at your age. image  Unless of course you read that post? In which case, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings, so I will bite my forked tongue... for now. image

     

    Have a Nice Day! image

    Get over yourself. The only people I know that play the age card are always young themselves. Us oldies know the world is full of shonks and we don't throw money at them.

  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I'm just going by the fact that the majority of people who answered the op's question cited brad as a possible reason.

    Well, when you get older, you will realize to base your thoughts (and they can really exist) on your own wisdom. Real facts from said wisdom, has shown more times than I can count just how wrong any majority of people can be. History actually teaches that too. I would suggest Art History as being more accurate than any old history class though. Personally, I also would suggest ancient history, as many stories the majority of people believe these days have been around since ancient times.

     

    Brad may have been a reason, but I can assure you my last post most certainly answered that. Again, you will learn how to think when you get older, so it is okay at your age. image  Unless of course you read that post? In which case, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings, so I will bite my forked tongue... for now. image

     

    Have a Nice Day! image

    At 39 you are way too young to be playing the wisdom card and it shows.

    Lack of trust in Brad McQuaid was a major reason that so few people contributed to the Kickstarter, especially amongst those of us who have been playing the Everquest franchise or Vanguard.

    The lack of professionalism in the presentation of the kickstarter campaign reinforced that view.  His later actions played to that theme too.

    While I would love to back a game with the same sort of outline as Pantheon, the presence of Brad McQuaid is pure poison.

    I will go further I believe that the continued presence of this title and Brad McQuaid lower the chances of a successful game in this sub-genre every day it continues.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • itchmonitchmon Member UncommonPosts: 1,986
    Why didn't I ks?

    Brad anxiety.

    Will I be part of the crowd fund eventually? Probably, because I think the people around him will be able to rein him in, and the concept of the game appeals to me.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, ESO

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Enbysra

    Originally posted by Foomerang I'm just going by the fact that the majority of people who answered the op's question cited brad as a possible reason.
    Well, when you get older, you will realize to base your thoughts (and they can really exist) on your own wisdom. Real facts from said wisdom, has shown more times than I can count just how wrong any majority of people can be. History actually teaches that too. I would suggest Art History as being more accurate than any old history class though. Personally, I also would suggest ancient history, as many stories the majority of people believe these days have been around since ancient times.

     

    Brad may have been a reason, but I can assure you my last post most certainly answered that. Again, you will learn how to think when you get older, so it is okay at your age.   Unless of course you read that post? In which case, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings, so I will bite my forked tongue... for now. 

     Have a Nice Day! 


    Hehe well then. You have a nice day also :)

    BTW, you never asked if I thought Brad was to blame...

  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 46
    Originally posted by Netspook
     

     

    I've never supported any KS, and I never will, because I refuse to pay for nothing less than a finished product.

    Apart from that, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

    It's all because it's Brad.

    Its just a shame that even when they put games in boxes, their not exactly finished these days, but I understand the sentiment, just made me smile when I read it :)

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Phaen
    Originally posted by Netspook
     

     

    I've never supported any KS, and I never will, because I refuse to pay for nothing less than a finished product.

    Apart from that, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

    It's all because it's Brad.

    Its just a shame that even when they put games in boxes, their not exactly finished these days, but I understand the sentiment, just made me smile when I read it :)

    I made a choice a few years ago to stop paying for alphas, betas and concept games.  Then Pantheon came along.  I will basically pay money for videos and concept discussions for such a game, because the thought of it is more entertaining to me than what is currently passing for an MMORPG.  They could admit to converting my hard earned money directly into opiates and I will still pay permitted some semblance of progress is being made.


  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 46
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Phaen
    Originally posted by Netspook
     

     

    I've never supported any KS, and I never will, because I refuse to pay for nothing less than a finished product.

    Apart from that, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

    It's all because it's Brad.

    Its just a shame that even when they put games in boxes, their not exactly finished these days, but I understand the sentiment, just made me smile when I read it :)

    I made a choice a few years ago to stop paying for alphas, betas and concept games.  Then Pantheon came along.  I will basically pay money for videos and concept discussions for such a game, because the thought of it is more entertaining to me than what is currently passing for an MMORPG.  They could admit to converting my hard earned money directly into opiates and I will still pay permitted some semblance of progress is being made.

    Yeah, not sure about this big move toward allowing people the privege to Alpha/ Beta test a F2P game by paying to be a founder, ala AA and EQNL etc, that started a bad trend. Supporting a indie developer at KS is a bit different to me a least for what I perceive as likely the last game of its kind to be made, in the form of Pantheon.

    I also have to laugh at majority of this threads misguide information and pure speculation. As if they had followed what happened to any length they would know that the "45k" salary advance was to pay for outstanding medical expenses (and no I don't have a link to cite) read into that what you will, but it was on the basis of an expected backer that never happened and without much communication with the other dev's. This obviously caused some internal issues and with the money run dry they had to pursue other work to make ends meet a hence left the team. Existing subs were then going only to pay for website upkeep until a backer could be found.

    Now I will admit that might not be the entire story, but it sure could have been done better as was disappointing.  I also think by all accounts they were particularly abitious with there salary expectations for such a project in its early phases. I think the work is being carried on by a group of dedicated supports in a volunteer capacity, being rewarded were finances allow. These same people volunteered because they wanted the vision to succeed and have shown themselves to be quite capable and now with a CEO recently appointed the company is taking a better shape. This year should see a marked change for the better so will be worth watching.

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