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Why did the Kickstarter fail?

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  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 46

    It failed due to a slow start and insufficient hype prior to kickstarter. What they had to show was basically nothing from a game point of view and those initial graphics destroyed credibility. I backed it on what Vanguard had offered and the direction they talked about, which is reasonable since Vanguard and EQ proved their ability. If you hadn't played either then what you saw would likely have turned you away.

    If however they had done a kickstarter now it in all likelyhood would have succeeded as there has been plenty of hype (good and bad) and there is something to show. Looking at Crowfall, it suceeded as they had plenty of hype and have plenty to show, I didn't back it because it doesn'tt appeal to me, but you can't argue they weren't prepared and have a great kickstarter going.

    Kickstarter is a game in itself, play well and you win :)

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977

    Baseline is not enough interest in a game like this.

    Everything else is just on top of that.

  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 623
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean
    This game sounds great to me, on paper.  Why do you think the Kickstarter only raised $400K out of, what, $800K?  Was it lack of advertising?  Not enough disgruntled old guys like me who want this type of game?  Other games like Crowfall are still funding, so I guess it's not that the crowd funding types are burnt out yet...

    I didn't even hear about this Pantheon until a few months ago, and I definitely am looking at the $300 tier on their website at the moment. Both Everquest and Vanguard stand as testimony to Pantheon being well worth at least that... AND I would be well willing to pay $30-60 per month subscription once it did finally launch. 

     

    So yeah, I didn't hear about it then, and I am sure I am not the only one. An irl friend of mine as well (another old fogie), he would likely do the same too. I'll probably be able to get a hold of him in another month or two. 

     

    And yeah, it was only $460k if I recall correctly. Which is unbelievable actually. Take one disgruntled old guy that can't make their own MMORPG and is bored with today's trends that also just happens to have money... I am surprised no one just dropped $100,000 piles on this yet like these whales do in F2P hollow shell games.

     

    ADD:

    I find it amusing all the "because of Brad" lines. Fact is though, whether or not you like the guy or even trust him... he is the only one looking to make this specific type of game. Fact is, take Everquest and Vanguard... and realize, you already know what elements this guy can deliver and has likely rethought such elements. Do you seriously think you are going to get an MMORPG without crafting? WTF? Fact is, the guy is an artist. There have been plenty of artists that have been absolute D-Bags in plenty of genres... but they were/are still great at their work. Brad McQuaid is no different, he is a great artist, no matter what you think of him.

     

    I know it may be a slippery slope, but the way I see it... if we do not support Pantheon (which does consist of more than just 1 person), then I hope everyone enjoys all the alternatives that are available. If it is an MMORPG like Pantheon you have been looking for, this is it folks, there is no other chance at this. Show me one, please, because I would love to see we have more options than just 1. All these F2P propaganda people talk about "money talks"... well, for MMORPGs like Pantheon being made, failure to support it also is talking. Personally, I hate what it is saying. And to those of you that loved EQ or VG, and can honestly let Pantheon slip away... **** every last one of you.

    you realizes it was brad's bad managing of finances and poor relationship with the vanguard team that resulted in the DoA launch of vanguard. Vanguard was launched premature.... missing almost all the elements brad promised, over budget, and poorly optimized even for the top end rigs at the time. If SoE hadn't stepped in and purchased sigil's assets then pumped money into the game..... the game would have closed years ago.

    the key to pantheon's success is to keep brad away from managing the money and have him just work on the creative side of the game. 

     

    also the kickstarter failed because it was a super lazy campaign

  • CeryshenCeryshen Member UncommonPosts: 73
    Maybe, in general, the type of people who are interested in this type of game are not necessarily the type of people who are willing to crowd fund.
  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Member UncommonPosts: 689

    Big Bad Brad is a good dev, but a god awful manager/CEO.  He bungled Vanguard on a massive scale, with many reports from previous employees about financial abuse, boys club attitude, etc.

    Then he comes back years later to try again?

     

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

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  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,003
    MightyUnclean, look a couple pages back in this subforum, you'll see it.

    It's the reason, in a nutshell, that I'm very wary of almost any crowdfunding campaign.

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  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Originally posted by Jacxolope

    -It had nothing at all to do with "not enough people wanting a game like this" and the archives of older threads are all you really need to do to get an honest answer.

     

    The problem was with brad. the secondary problem is kickstart burnout.... But it was brad. Thats the gist of it.

     

    And honestly, I think anyone supporting this project currently or in the future will be highly disappointed... For many reasons including brad.

    Lets be honest here, a lot of the objections to Brad are hype and gossip. Brad wasn't beloved by many during EQ because he refused to cave to the crowds who are now more comfortable with WoW style play and focus. He was a blunt type of guy at times in those discussions back then and it made some people very angry. I wasn't happy with him at the time, but that was due to the Test Server fiasco, not his "Vision", though to be honest it took over a decade of crap games to realize that many of the objections I did have to his "Vision" were unfounded. 

     

    Vanguard has a lot of gossip around it, as if it was completely his failure. Fact is, Microsoft was the problem here. If you read the details of the issue, MS dumped the project because Brad refused to cave to their demands concerning development (among other things) and Sony picked it up because it was a means to control the competition for EQ2. 

     

    At the end of the day, like it or not, Brads "Vision" produced not only EQ, but was able to produce Vanguard as well. His ideas are proven. If you set all the politics, technical issues, and release problems aside, Vanguard was an excellent game. So, the issue is now, what will be the result? 

     

    For me... even a another troubled release and existence that was like Vanguard is far better than anything currently on the market. There really is nothing to lose on that front, the design and content are proven. So for me, it is worth having "hope" for, though I will be skeptical regardless, anyone should about any MMO these days.

    Also, those who worry about Brad's business sense, there is no need. Brad is the Creative Director, not the CEO. Look up the qualifications of their CEO and try not to be impressed, I dare you. 

     

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea....

    I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,870

    It is all about popularity and advertising now because devs cannot afford to make Triple A games anymore.This game simply did not market itself high enough and just did become a popular brand.If Blizzard had of marketed this same game it would have a huge following,tons of adverts and called the next big game.

    Personally i feel everyone of these games struggling to get the funding have no chance at all of making a quality game,just a game.As already mentioned no crafting or maybe some real simple idea behind it on launch,you can't say that is a good effort to deliver a triple a game.

    So what are all of these games selling us?generated maps be it space maps with rocks or barren land masses.Dot around some npc's,tie in some quests and call it a mmorpg.It just doesn't cut it anymore too many games out there to choose from.

    I have not seen one quality game since perhaps Vanguard and that game was still more of the same old  that SOE had delivered in all their series with a few added twists but not enough to warrant a new game.

    Square tried to do the same ting with FFXIV,they tried to differentiate it from FFXI to warrant selling a new game but instead made a much worse version and were lucky to survive it.

    Basically you CAN NOT go cheap in any of the design,from the way you travel the world to mapping to the structures,the depth of economy and depth of systems and questing.You need nations to live and work from,have a home,so many games are so pathetic players don't even have a home,it's like where do they live and how do they eat,it is all a cheap fabricated game design.

    Bottom line is if you think you can get away with a budget design and fool people,you only fool yourself and will fail.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Electro057Electro057 Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Personally it looked far too old school and there was hardly anything to show, and it lacked all the features I wanted. It also seemed so 90s, the presentation that is. And there was minimal art direction and style, as an artist whom collects and puts a lot of stock into rendered art I wasn't seeing anything to win me over. 

    So....for me it was poor presentation, which meant 250$ more towards Crowfall cause I love their concept art and stylization.

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  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146

    wow this thread is out of control with just people complaining and nitpicking everything.  Not every game is going to have every feature you want from the ground up because their not making a game that is focused on those features.  Why add crafted to a game when its an afterthought and unimportant ? Seriously who ever played world of warcraft for their crafting and if they did is that really the type of gamer you think this game is trying to appeal to ?  So saying that this game didn't reach its goal because of a missing feature is simply not the case.

     

    Another thing I am seeing a lot of is that apprehension towards Brad Mcquaid was the reason that kick starter failed and this is somewhat correct.  Lets get one thing very clear Brad Mcquaid did not cause Vanguard to fail that blame is completely on Microsoft.  You can't replace your creative team with the guy's who makes games like angry birds and expect them to have the same vision.  Vanguard did not lack creative inspiration or ever bad design, but rather it lacked a proper development cycle because funding was pulled and sony rushed it out when they acquired the ip.  

     

    The reason I say that Brad Mcquaid is responsible is because he is a designer not a business man and he makes bad business decisions.  He released his kick starter campaign way before he had developed any word of mouth or had anything visually that represented a final product.  He thought that his resume and name would carry the product, but lack of information and terrible looking screenshots basically sabotaged it.  I am probably the biggest fan of this product, but I wouldn't have put a single dime into a game that looks like it was made with 1990's graphics.

     

    With all that said Brad has a vision of what MMO's should be and if you loved Everquest/Vanguard than this game is for you.  This game appeals to a gamer that wants to be challenged, loves group content, and wants a living breathing world.  This game isn't going to have a million features and shouldn't have to whore itself out like these other mmo's with industry buzzwords and soulless content.  It's not going to appeal to players who want an Action MMO where you're constantly killing and never talking to the people around you.  It's simply not what the Core of this game is about, but for those worried about having pvp and crafting these will be in the game.

     

    I hope that they use this current buzz for the game and start drumming up more crowd funding for the title.  They need to follow some of the steps laid out by Star Citizen and develop this game publicly while publicly holding themselves accountable for money given with a goal tracker.  They simply need to market themselves better and make better business decisions.  That being said I think this game will be made regardless of funding, but my hope as a fan is that we don't lose features because they are under funded.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,616
    I am dying for EQ1 rebirth. I was going to back this game, $200 bucks to get my wife and I both access to this game. Started digging into the company and whats what and found out the last round of money is gone because the lead Dev spent the money on drugs. Wont stop me from playing the game if it releases and is awesome but I wont back them now till I know the game will release. I wont chuck my money up someone nose. 
  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Originally posted by Nitth

    Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea....

    I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..

    This is such a moronic statement.  Brad is a designer not a business man and judging him based off of a few mistakes is more than harsh its simply narrow minded.  The core concept of EQ/VG was a hardcore group based world driven mmo and this is a continuation of his vision of what an MMORPG should be.  That has nothing to do with nostalgia, but nice try.

  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Originally posted by bingbongbros

    Big Bad Brad is a good dev, but a god awful manager/CEO.  He bungled Vanguard on a massive scale, with many reports from previous employees about financial abuse, boys club attitude, etc.

    Then he comes back years later to try again?

     

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    Which is why he's no longer CEO.  The guy is simply a terrible business man, but a great designer.  If you look at his career as a whole you see a recurring theme of him rising to management then quitting and becoming a designer again.  He simply should never be put in a position where he's a manager.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Originally posted by Nitth

    Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea....

    I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..

    Lets see... follow the perceived vision from a 3rd party as to what EQ/VG was OR follow that vision from the horses mouth. I think you have your answer. Brad was never the problem, that was hype and gossip. 

  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Originally posted by Electro057

    Personally it looked far too old school and there was hardly anything to show, and it lacked all the features I wanted. It also seemed so 90s, the presentation that is. And there was minimal art direction and style, as an artist whom collects and puts a lot of stock into rendered art I wasn't seeing anything to win me over. 

    So....for me it was poor presentation, which meant 250$ more towards Crowfall cause I love their concept art and stylization.

    I love how you invest in a game based off of looks.  I guess each to their own and I agree with your assesment of their kick starter campaign.  My biggest gripe is that the game needs to be up to modern day standards and I'm super concerned that their building it on the unity engine.  I mean for god sakes the engine that brought us angry birds and hearthstone.....

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I am dying for EQ1 rebirth. I was going to back this game, $200 bucks to get my wife and I both access to this game. Started digging into the company and whats what and found out the last round of money is gone because the lead Dev spent the money on drugs. Wont stop me from playing the game if it releases and is awesome but I wont back them now till I know the game will release. I wont chuck my money up someone nose. 

    Yeah, the problem with that story is that it is gossip, not fact. 

  • Electro057Electro057 Member UncommonPosts: 683
    Originally posted by djcincy
    Originally posted by Electro057

    Personally it looked far too old school and there was hardly anything to show, and it lacked all the features I wanted. It also seemed so 90s, the presentation that is. And there was minimal art direction and style, as an artist whom collects and puts a lot of stock into rendered art I wasn't seeing anything to win me over. 

    So....for me it was poor presentation, which meant 250$ more towards Crowfall cause I love their concept art and stylization.

    I love how you invest in a game based off of looks.  I guess each to their own and I agree with your assesment of their kick starter campaign.  My biggest gripe is that the game needs to be up to modern day standards and I'm super concerned that their building it on the unity engine.  I mean for god sakes the engine that brought us angry birds and hearthstone.....

    As I said being an artist and someone who frequents galleries both online and offline for purchasing, art direction goes a long way for me, it's why I dropped so much on the collector's edition of Guild Wars 2. They included the artstyle in everything from the UI, to battle damage, to underwater effects in that game. It made it feel lively, vibrant, and gave it so much personality. It's not the single deciding factor, however it sure does lend a lot to me. It's why I love games like Shadow of the Colossus, the visual art style is breathtaking and even the presentation of the world with a heavy layer of mystery on the origins of almost modern structures in this ruined holy land. Not to mention the musical score, but I'm rambling.

    The way this Kickstarter was presented was very dated and unprofessional, and what little that was presented was lifeless and dull. It much reminded me of a old clip art office presentation, and that drove me away. Which is sad because I do enjoy the game mechanics envisioned and those they wish to bring back from the grave. 

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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,796
    Originally posted by Xenich
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I am dying for EQ1 rebirth. I was going to back this game, $200 bucks to get my wife and I both access to this game. Started digging into the company and whats what and found out the last round of money is gone because the lead Dev spent the money on drugs. Wont stop me from playing the game if it releases and is awesome but I wont back them now till I know the game will release. I wont chuck my money up someone nose. 

    Yeah, the problem with that story is that it is gossip, not fact. 

    The drugs can't be confirmed. Taking 120k of the money for "own expenses" has been confirmed by Brad himself though.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,616
    Originally posted by Xenich
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I am dying for EQ1 rebirth. I was going to back this game, $200 bucks to get my wife and I both access to this game. Started digging into the company and whats what and found out the last round of money is gone because the lead Dev spent the money on drugs. Wont stop me from playing the game if it releases and is awesome but I wont back them now till I know the game will release. I wont chuck my money up someone nose. 

    Yeah, the problem with that story is that it is gossip, not fact. 

    Its all over the net and even old coworkers back it up. This has been going on all the way back to Vanguard. SoE swooped in and saved the project as reported because of Brads drug problems. Again same thing pops up again with this project. Comes a point when you have many many sources saying the same thing, at minimum, there has to be some truth to it. Enough that buyer beware is not unfounded. 

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by Xenich

    Originally posted by Nitth Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea.... I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..
    Lets see... follow the perceived vision from a 3rd party as to what EQ/VG was OR follow that vision from the horses mouth. I think you have your answer. Brad was never the problem, that was hype and gossip. 

    But clearly having his name associated is detrimental to the project as evidenced here on this forum and throughout the internet. at this point i'm willing to wager that out weighs the pros of having his name on it.

    Lets just say for argument sake they kicked brad, re-branded and started a new kick stater campaign with their design in tact, it would be more likely to succeed because you have already seen success with other games of the same design of over the last 1-2 years.

    I don't think the majority of people care who is behind these re-imaginings as long as they say all the right things and convey what people want to hear and see.

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  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Originally posted by Electro057

    Personally it looked far too old school and there was hardly anything to show, and it lacked all the features I wanted. It also seemed so 90s, the presentation that is. And there was minimal art direction and style, as an artist whom collects and puts a lot of stock into rendered art I wasn't seeing anything to win me over. 

    So....for me it was poor presentation, which meant 250$ more towards Crowfall cause I love their concept art and stylization.

    Well, graphics were what I was interested in primarily, then I would be right at home with most of the games out today. Though "lipstick on a pig" and you understand the problem. Don't get me wrong, I like things to look nice, but I would rather have a game with great content/mechanics and 80's graphics than 2014 graphics and crappy content/mechanics. 

     

    As for the graphics now, you have seen this right? Keep in mind, this is Unity 4, they are moving to 5 and things are going to get even better. 

     

     

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • djcincydjcincy Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Xenich

    Originally posted by Nitth Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea.... I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..
    Lets see... follow the perceived vision from a 3rd party as to what EQ/VG was OR follow that vision from the horses mouth. I think you have your answer. Brad was never the problem, that was hype and gossip. 

     

    But clearly having his name associated is detrimental to the project as evidenced here on this forum and throughout the internet. at this point i'm willing to wager that out weighs the pros of having his name on it.

    Lets just say for argument sake they kicked brad, re-branded and started a new kick stater campaign with their design in tact, it would be more likely to succeed because you have already seen success with other games of the same design of over the last 1-2 years.

    I don't think the majority of people care who is behind these re-imaginings as long as they say all the right things and convey what people want to hear.

    I understand 100% the view, but I believe the project can work with him as long as he's not the front man.  He needs a Smedley or a Chris Roberts type that can handle business and be the face.  The guy is an amazing designer and personally I like a redemption story.  Maybe there can even be a 50k stretch goal to send this guy to the best rehab center in the world for a month lol!

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by djcincy
    Originally posted by Nitth   Originally posted by Xenich Originally posted by Nitth Why don't the team just sack brad and carry on with the idea.... I mean really, All they are doing is following the EQ/VG blueprint to induce nostalgia to the fans..
    Lets see... follow the perceived vision from a 3rd party as to what EQ/VG was OR follow that vision from the horses mouth. I think you have your answer. Brad was never the problem, that was hype and gossip. 
      But clearly having his name associated is detrimental to the project as evidenced here on this forum and throughout the internet. at this point i'm willing to wager that out weighs the pros of having his name on it. Lets just say for argument sake they kicked brad, re-branded and started a new kick stater campaign with their design in tact, it would be more likely to succeed because you have already seen success with other games of the same design of over the last 1-2 years. I don't think the majority of people care who is behind these re-imaginings as long as they say all the right things and convey what people want to hear.
    I understand 100% the view, but I believe the project can work with him as long as he's not the front man.  He needs a Smedley or a Chris Roberts type that can handle business and be the face.  The guy is an amazing designer and personally I like a redemption story.  Maybe there can even be a 50k stretch goal to send this guy to the best rehab center in the world for a month lol!

    lol.

    Well, i hear he has solved that problem by hiring a CEO front man, maybe that will work for him.

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