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So... A retrospective of the last 10 years of PvP focused MMORPGs... Where has it brought us?
Vesavius
Member RarePosts: 7,908
Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
Comments
That's forum PvP - even ganking - you're doing there.
I really don't see the evidence that PvP is the cause of any of this, so you can just as well ask the same questions above blaming: PvE, Better graphics, new players, DLC...
As far as I know the PvE communities are as toxic as PvP communities with: gear check, specific class insta kick, kill steal, loot steal, elitism, etc.
What's more, the SOLO content of MMORPGs is always PvE.
If anything, there is absolutely NO PvP content - zero, niet, nada - that doesn't require you to work as a team. You read that correctly. Whether you chose to do it properly or not is another story (same with PvE).
But PvP is the only de facto group content.
This thread makes no sense as you're just putting the blame without proof.
Oh, shush with that 'forum PvP' nonsense.
The posters that started that as a concept here on these boards have a lot to answer for. And they are a product of exactly what I am asking about here in all actuallity.
Yep, as 'far as you know'.
You are kinda new to the genre, right?
Wait, what games are you calling PVP focused? Far as I can tell just about every MMO to launch in last 10 years has been a PVP tagged on at the end feature. Nobody has had the balls to step forward as DAoC once did to call itself boldly and proudly a game that takes PVP as it's first priority.
Most of the MMOs of last 10 years make WoW look like a PVP focused game by comparison. So your assertion that PVP focused MMOs have somehow degraded the community is rather confusing to me. PVP has been around as long as MMOs have.. from early graphical MUDs like The Realm which had PVP in ALPHA to Ultima Online and Everquest itself. So with that in mind even more so I don't understand where you place any woes in the community at the foot of PVP'ers.
If ANYTHING the degradation of the community has been a focus on casual players at the expense of the hardcore players. Even the hardcore PVE raiders are usually more civilized and mature than the casual ones. I think you're spitting your venom in the wrong direction with this topic and should instead be reflecting on the failure of MMORPG community to not dumb down, simplify, and try to reach beyond a reasonable horizon of what their base of subscriptions could be and thus they don't deliver content that satisfies anyone by trying to satisfy everyone.
I prefer pvp because it's less predictable. humans are smarter than AI at least most of the time. I could do a raid or dungeon and the enemies will always do the same thing. once you learn what they are the challenge is done. pvp provides unknown encounters. as to where that mentality has brought us? idk. where were we to begin with?
I guess that's subjective.
So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.
And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.
I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.
I know you specifically named MMORPG's in the thread title. but video games have always been competitive. who can get the highest score? who can get to the end first? that's pvp.
what big change happened 10 years ago? how was 2004 different from 2005?
even pve content has an element of pvp to it. that's why people race through the content. to be first. to win. that's why raiding guilds are competitive with eachother. they want to beat other players.
There has only been a handfull of pvp focused mmorpgs and even less good ones. What I've found if done right Wushu, the game turns into a virtual world with things like trade, and risk reward. A world where it's all about the players not the npcs.
What I've also found is that some people have an actual fear of pvp. A npc can kick their butts for hours weeks on end, but if a person does it the suffer actual mental trauma.
edit- to OPs social question EVE and Wushu are the most social games I've ever played.
No, that's a bad stretching of the term 'PvP'...
Comparing high scores, or even achievements, is not the definition of PvP.
But we both know that, right?
I added more to that post. but, I don't think it's stretching at all. people like to compete with one another.
This is obviously a b8 thread or you are actually this delusional.
The market for the last 10 years has been dominated by PVE-centric titles, contrary to your claim.
So any problems you are having with the genre you can blame it on theme parks and hand holding PVE games.
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
This is an interesting assertion.
I guess the offerings over the last decade can only be broken down into three camps? PvP, PvE, or *truely* equally focused?
I wonder how in reality that really breaks down when looking at the last decade.
Sorry, I cut it there due to not trusting any post on a forum that uses numbers instead of letters.
Sorry, I cut it there due to not trusting any post on a forum that uses numbers instead of letters.
Certainly a convenient way to skip having to answer the hard questions isn't it?
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
If you think so. I really don't want to argue about it. I don't engage with text speak on forums.
Either way, it's cut. Letters are a great way to communicate.
same applies to what you stated on your first post regarding the fact that "PvP" is to blame for all the problems were having on mmorpgs then.
Do bare in mind that isn't PvP it self that makes people act like idiots, people are idiots or decide to act like idiots because THEY WANT TO DO IT.
"Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated.
It never did, there's still more players looking for good PvE content then PvP content.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?"
What did PvE brought us? look at World of Warcraft one of the prime examples of how PvE is handled currently? Look at Siege of Orgrimmar? got the legendary cloak? check you can come, you don't have it? kicked from the group.
that's how the game should be played? isn't the PvE community as toxic or worse then the PvP one?
And before you say "you don't know what your talking about..." or something like "yer new to the genre..." let me inform you, I've been playing rpgs/mmorpgs since the Time of MUD'S and after Ultima Online, lead guilds and saw the goods and the bads of EVERYTHING, PvE and PvP, and to finalize I'm NOT a PvP player, albeit I do enjoy it if its properly implemented on the game(a rare case nowadays)
In the end of all this, the problem ISN'T PvP, ITS THE FUCKING PLAYER BASE AND THE COMMUNITIES OF MMORPGS IN GENERAL.
. _. please, bitch about it now.
(edit, spell check....pfft...)
FFA Twitch PvP works only in FPS like games - this kind of PvP is not a working Business Model for MMOrpgs.
This Was True - This Is True - This Will Ever Be True!
Twitch Gaming is the most unreliable way to play a MMO - while Tab Targetting Style overcomes many kinds of Connection and Hardware and Life Issues where the Twitch Gaming Style is absolutely unforgiving in that case.
Also lets be honest - Twitch Gaming is exhausting and while most People do like some challenge they do not like to be exhausted after a hard workday/week.
FFA PvP does not work bcs of the asymetric effort to build things, to gaurd things and to destroy things.
FFA PvP forces Players to make their gaming a Shiftwork to protect what they have build up in endless hours of gaming while making them become a Slave of their game.
The Attacker only needs a couple of minutes to scout if the Shiftwork of Protection has a Shift slipped and use that short timespan to destroy as much or all of the target which is very Little effort compared to the 24/7/365 Need of Protection.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
No, it didn't used to be. And that's the point. We aren't talking about where we are now, we are discussing the journey that we have traveled over the last decade.
This isn't a discussion of current the PvP Vs. PvE culture as it stands right now... Because the PvP/ MOBA mentality has thoroughly infected the PvE culture to the extent where they are now the same thing.
There have always been asshats, sure, but that, again, isn't the point.
Wow, you're emotional... No need to get all shouty friend, it's just us talking.
In before thread lock! Baiters gunna bait...
This should be "Stickied" some where!
I actually agree with OP.
PvP has no place in MMOs. There's too many skills, the UI is too cluttered, and it makes balance an absolute nightmare.
Until we get an MMO that goes to the table with NO PvP, we'll never get a PvE title as good as original Everquest.
This post is hilarious!
I wonder what other PvP stereotypes we'll see next...
oh, please... I'm a 'baiter', despite fairly and reasonably engaging others, because I don't respond to text speak on a forum?
Instead of trying to dismiss me with such cheap tactics, maybe engage the point?
It is a fair one for discussion.
Didn't use to be? in what cave you've been living then? you never played UO? how the heck you can say that the PvP community wasn't toxic even at the start? or for the matter, EQ or even DA:OC? darn I must be blind then, but I've seen a lot of crap back when PvP was at the start, on the middle of the said journey your talking about and NOW.
and IT IS the point here Vesavius you now see more of it? kinda, most of the mature and educated people quit mmorpgs and are playing other stuff, aka, offline games so yea, the idiots stand out more, but doesn't change the fact that there was ALWAYS a toxic community both in PvP and PvE, and none of them are better then the other.
Look at Sacrifice? you remember that game? a 3rd person RTS created by Shiny Int? yea that one, we had a damn great community there, one or two idiots poped up from time to time but those wouldn't stay long, it was a PvP focused game, now? trust me, you don't want to get into the lobby when someone is around, 99% are asshats, yea those, why? that great community moved on.
not emotional, just using caps to raise the point, the problem isn't PvP or PvE, its the communities and the fact that your getting more and more kids playing mmorpgs and less mature people nowadays.
Your point lacks a factual premise... impossible to engage.
edit: engage seriously that is
You seem to be missing the point.
Then... Don't.
You are free not to.
No need to throw around junk terms such as 'baiter' just because you disagree with what's being asked.
If you cannot engage, just maybe be quiet?