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What made EQ challenging and why people chose to group
Samatman
Member UncommonPosts: 123
I see it a lot these days - "make group content", "forced grouping is good", "solo progression destroys communities". It's as if we have to pick a side and stay there forever. I just don't buy it. Here are my thoughts on what made EQ challenging and why grouping just made sense without being "forced".
Player to mob power ratio:
In general on any one even con mob, if tackled solo, you had a pretty big chance of dying. Player to mob power ratios were skewed in favor of the mob and we knew it. To make things worse (i.e. more challenging), just what were you going to do at Orc 1 without help? There's 5 orcs there and if you pull one, you pull them all. You needed help and rather than waste time trying and dying, you grabbed the next guy to come along and grouped. The next guy hardly needed to be asked if he wanted to join because he was in the same situation.
Dangerous environment:
In the beginning, when it rained in EQ, I would sit down and stop moving. Hopefully I was somewhere safe to begin with. Why? You couldn't see a damn thing. EQ had tons of roaming mobs that were almost all aggressive. When it wasn't raining, you still had to master situational awareness when fighting something because adds meant you had to flee or die (and fleeing usually meant dying too). To complicate things, zones like Warslik's Woods had so many trees there was no way you could consider fighting something in the middle of the forest. You had to work from safe spots and "pull" mobs there to fight. People congregated at these pull spots and groups formed naturally. Environmental obfuscation, whether rain or trees, was a design element used a lot in EQ and it worked very well to make things much more dangerous.
Mob AI and faction:
While the AI was pretty rudimentary, it mattered in almost every situation. Did a mob have social aggro? Would the bear walking by care if I am fighting a lion? Is that iksar KOS to me or just dubious? We didn't just hop on a horse and tear through west commonlands without a care in the world. You had to target and con everything in your path and make decisions actively. Mobs didn't leash so if you got aggro you couldn't handle, it was fight here and now, or click your "train to zone" macro.
Dying:
If you played EQ you died, and usually a lot. And it hurt. You lost levels. You respawned across the entire world naked. You had huge incentive to try very hard to not die but had to prepare for the worst with almost every encounter. Soloing, even just simple travel, was extremely risky and to mitigate the risk of death you sought out groups everywhere you went. Even if you were just running from Qeynos to Highpass you wanted people with you for the journey. This wasn't forced grouping, it was grouping for obvious mutual benefit at every turn in the world.
Grouping vs. solo:
For most classes, soloing was just a tedious waste of time. It wasn't that you couldn't solo easy stuff, we all did. But getting a group was where the sweet spot was. When you were in that special group which happened from time to time, when everything just meshed perfectly and the exp flowed in, it was the highlight of the day or even week. The other really amazing thing that now is vanishing in modern MMOs is that while you were waiting for the next pull, or when we were medding, everyone in the group talked. We were able to talk because the game pace wasn't a frenetic button mashing face roll with people yelling "pull faster!" (except for bards who couldn't talk anyway until the melody command was added). The pace of the game wasn't determined by the number of nearby mobs, but by the rates of health and mana regen. Original EQ may have been a little heavy handed here but this is something that has to be carefully tuned. And the correct tuning is right where people feel free to chat while sitting through some downtime.
Everyone has times when they will choose to solo. Times when you have 15 minutes and just want to kill something. Times when you will be frequently interrupted, maybe by a young child. The great thing was EQ let you solo by greatly increasing your downtime and risk. But EQ was tuned to let a group accomplish things at a nice pace with far less risk and more reward.
I hope that that's the sweet spot that Pantheon is also aiming for as well.
Comments
This may be slightly off topic but can someone explain how the Group EXP system worked? I only played EQOA at a young age so I never fully understood it but one advantage to a certain group makeup (in terms of levels of the characters) resulted in more experience per kill than if I were to solo it. All your points make a lot of sense - especially the pace of the game and communication involved, and I recall this being an added bonus.
FFXI one upped EQ1 though with even more challenge in the grouped content.You fought ONE creature but if you got an add/link that was real trouble.The reason it was so much a challenge is because you were already fighting a mob that was 4/5/6/+ levels above your group.You might think oh well no biggie ,you have a group,however remember that mob is well beyond your tank and is easily capable of killing your tank.
That meant your resources and decisions were pushed to the very limit,your tank had to time his Provoke at the right time and dps had to burst at the right time or else hate would shift all over causing havoc.The healer had to make sure to divvy up just the right amount of hate or become the new tank and almost certainly die.
I would say EQ did a better job adding in background sounds and stuff like that but FFXI just had nicer graphics by that point which made the creatures and the world look a lot better.
I do however acknowledge EQ1 as the first big step in MMO gaming,they moved the Industry forward and imo again with EQ2 but those days are long past now.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@neaton14: I don't think I could tell you exactly what the group exp bonus was either then or now in EQ1. But it was something along the lines of:
group members : total exp gained by group : exp gain per person
1 100% 100%
2 102% 51%
3 more less
4 more less
5 120% 24%
6 120% 24%
Note the assumption that the larger the group, the faster they kill - not always the case and a reason people would try to solo in the first place.
@Wizardry, I never had a chance to play FFXI although I did beta test FFXIV briefly. It was my understanding that FFXI had some kinds of similar forced group roadblocks to progression that were discussed during the recent round table (called "achievements", which usually mean something else to the current crop of MMOs)?
I have a lot of reservations about this kind of roadblock from my experience in EQ2. While most people play prime time, I almost always play in the early morning. I was trying to finish the betrayal quest and had to kill a linked boss. It took me days of looking for help to finish what should have been a simple task with friends. In EQ1 I used to be unable to get binds in cities because the cities were empty. That's just two examples, but it's enough to show you how the assumption that any given person will be able to solicit the aid of others to progress might not be valid all the time.
My issue in EQ2 could have been avoided by making more friends or joining a guild, so lets assume that is always solvable. My trouble getting a bind in EQ1 might have been solved by joining a bigger guild, etc, but this is a simple game mechanic and hiding it behind a group-wall was unnecessary in my opinion.
Your audience was also very different. It was the RPG crowd looking for that classic group adventure they experienced in books, movies and tabletop games. Now they had a chance to be part of that group themselves. That played a very big part of it.
That was about the only preconception the early EQers had of what this massively multiplayer online RPG should be. Now, fastforward just a few years to DAoC, and it was barely a half a year after release before the healer (awesome group char, crap solo) was changed to be viable as a solo character.
It's important to remember that with EQ and some of the other early MMOs, players chose to group before they even got to the game. It wasn't that some aspect of gameplay suddenly made them want to group up with others. The desire and expectation was there to begin with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is a great post! EQ was legit for many reasons that felt like the world was really intimidating.
This is a good thread Samatman!
I really miss a lot of those old experiences and a lot of those are what we are looking to bring back in Pantheon.
Loktofeit is pretty spot on with their comment about the target audience too, which is exactly the audience we want to appeal to, while also including VG and anyone else interested in giving old school game mechanics and experiences a go.
EQ had better crowd control. But adds were often still death if they added too early especially. IMO FFXI was very unpolished combat -- so fights harder? Maybe (but I do not really agree tbh), but if so only because classes were not as well built as EQs.
"Force grouping" is such a ridiculous term. It's one of those terms used passive aggressively to shame someone into changing their view.
I prefer "hard game."
This statement/question about why people choose to group is one that I had asked in the first developer roundtable series on the Pantheonrotf site; however, I worded it a bit differently.
I asked if the game was going to be designed with soloing in mind and if every class would be able to solo equally. I thankfully, received both a no and a no response. Basically, like EQ, Brad/Joppa claimed that Pantheon is being designed around grouping and what that class can bring to a group; therefore, like EQ, there will be some classes that solo better than others.
People then choose to group because they are interdependent on each other - tank/healer/crowd control/dps rather than a jack of all trades. Therefore, there were still classes that could/can solo, but it's innately more difficult as the mobs are being designed for group play. I'm sure there will be similar tactics that emerge in Pantheon like root rotting/fearing kiting etc. that will allow classes to solo if they so choose.
As why EQ was challenging - they could be a novel from simple things like encumbarance to more major mechanics like the death penalty to forced/required community interaction which aren't present in most current MMOs.
Grouping is good. Forced grouping as the only means of progression is horrible game design. Not everyone has the patience, mindset, time or social ability to group. Many gamers are Introverts and to force those to play a particular style is a travesty.
You can create rewarding group play easily just look to games like Asheron's Call or Path of Exile for proper group dynamics.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
A great game can give a player all of that except time. I played old EQ and developed the mindset, patience and social skills back in the day. The game just needs to make grouping fun and rewarding.
If you build it, they will group!
Shameless hijack for my own opinions on why EQ made me stay 10+ years and another xx years on and off untill i see Pantheon go live.
Plase bring back this awesome spirit of a game and i will be spending the next 15 years with pantheon. Screw the modern market. They don't know what they loose out of to get their instant solo gratifications.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I disagree. Soloing is the antithesis of what this genre was about in the beginning, and those are the roots which Pantheon intends to return to.
As far as death penalty, they've said it won't be as steep. I'm hoping that only means losing your corpse won't be a thing. I'm expecting the need to bind and corpse runs to be there. If players want the thrill and tension of a dangerous world and high risk, high reward combat, there must be a death penalty that stings.
Not so sure about that.
I've known plenty of players in early UO days which had no expectations of playing in group as 'default'.
Actually since day 1 in UO, most common sight was people soloing, soloing cementrary in Brit or wandering around cities, hunting, gathering or pk'ing.
Sure there were people who went into those early MMOs with intent to group from the start or even with IRL friends "grouped" before they started playing.
Most players I've met did not. Players cooperated, i.e. helping each other againt roaming PK player, going into the wild to get certain resource, trading other player for certain stuff (instead of trying to craft it itself) because it was either much more effeficient to do it with someone else or because it was impossible (or very dangerous/time-consuming) to do it alone.
Kinda like IRL when your car won't start up and you need to push it. You ask other person to help you, not because it is fun to do it together but because it is hard / tiresome to push it, jump in and start it alone.
Agree with you and that is what I want to find again in Pantheon.
Exactly this.
A focus on solo gameplay spells fail and nothing else. If you want solo content, freaking play a SOLO-RPG not a MMO-RPG. Sure some solo content is always needed and EQ had that plenty, but don't make solo content as viable as grouping. Grouping is the cornerstone of MMO.
A MMO with focus on soloing is just a bad RPG. Every singleplayer RPG will be FAR better then a MMO that tries to make soloing a priority.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
wasn't eq only challenging because it was new? nowadays people have a basic idea and understanding of how mmo's work.
Well I hope at least some classes can solo decent as I prefer to do that from time to time as I could with the druid in EQ while I wait for my friends to login or just wants to play for myself for a few hours. Some classes can be more focused around grouping like the cleric and some classes can solo better. However I think the game will bring in much more money if players are allowed to have some freedom to choose how they wants to play and don't indirectly force you to group 100% of the time as more or less EQ did for some classes. Variation never hurts.
Ya those classes were easy in that they could solo, in certain places. While you could level outdoors, so much of the content and progression part of EQ took place in dungeons or doing group raid content or quests.
I'm guessing a number of classes will have the ability to kill certain non-caster mobs using ranged abilities.
People have to remember there is more to leveling in Pantheon than finding a good spot to grind. Every so often you will have to do certain tasks to unlock the ability to continue leveling up. I'm guessing many of these tasks will be to go dangerous places that require other people. So put off the idea of just finding some quiet spots and grinding your way up to cap and going back and getting gear later. This game will require you to seek out others, even more than EQ.
A very definitive NO. It was actually hard and STILL is hard. You can still die there. Something current gen MMOs patched out kind of.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Forced grouping is such a silly term. If no one is forcing you to play the game, no one is forcing you to group.
When people eat at a restaurant, is there is "forced seating?" When you play a guitar, is there "forced strumming?"
In a group-centric MMORPG, there is no "forced grouping", grouping is just what you'll do. Shared adversity creates a sense of community. The idea is to create a dangerous world where people have to work together to some degree, be it on a small scale or large scale, in order to survive and attain greatness.
Will there be certain classes that can solo in some scenarios? Yes.
However, as I stated earlier, they are taking a new approach to character progression that will require characters of each class to complete certain quests or trials in order to advance further. At a certain point, you will no longer gain experience unless you've completed said tasks. I'm going to bet these tasks will often, if not always, require a group.
Its up to you whether you play Pantheon or not, but if you choose to and want to play it in its entirety, you will group.
SMH. They have already said all classes will be able to solo but some better than others. Get over it.
I have nothing to get over, I know whats been said. Also, please state where it was said verbatim all classes will be able to solo. I know they said some classes will be more viable to solo with than others, but using that to claim all classes will therefore be able to solo is a stretch. One could say the same about Everquest where it was impractical to solo on a pure melee without twink gear and buffs.
I just don't want people to get the wrong impression. Soloing will be limited in Pantheon, because that is not the design focus. They are not creating classes for their ability to solo, they are creating them to work well in groups. That doesn't mean they won't be able to solo though.
Just so people get the balance, this was said regarding soloing:
Q: Will you be able to solo in dungeons?
A: "Theres not going to be a game mechanic that prohibits [soloing], but man... its gonna be difficult because the dungeon is designed for group play. I'm not going to throw out words like impossible, but it will be difficult."
Also:
"If you have the right gear, and the right tactics, in the right area, theres nothing to say you can't kill a mob" .
Just so people know, there are a lot of qualifiers when it comes to the ability to solo.