When EQ launched and for years afterward, no one would have considered 100-500k subs niche. The only reason we're having a discussion about what niche means is because of World of Warcraft and the 10M subs. Niche really doesn't matter anymore since it is pretty unlikely any MMO will ever rival what WoW did. What does matter is whether development costs are in proportion to expected revenue.
Look at Project Gorgon - I see people saying this is one guy doing all of the programming. If he gets 250 guys paying him $20 a month he's covering his costs.
Truth there, but nevertheless there are always going to be certain games with more mass appeal. This was 2007 and that was over 2 years into WoW. Niche isn't bad, but a lot of great games will fall into that category if they cater to a specific audience.
Vanguard was originally slated as a more hardcore mmorpg with heavier emphasis on the RPG part (though it changed). With its original features regarding elements like travel, harsh death, and slower combat-based progression, it was unlikely to appeal to the average player. Thats not a bad thing, its just the way any good (hardcore) game will be in my opinion. I don't care if Pantheon launches with 5 years worth of content and the best graphics ever seen, things like slower progression and painful death penalties will always ward off casual gamers.
Originally posted by Thebeasttt Wouldn't it be a hilarious twist if daybreak resurrected Vanguard, made it a AAA sandbox and reverted EQ1 back to the glory days, completely eliminating the need for Pantheon altogether?
I mean Miley Cyrus's virginity is more likely then this actually happening but I wonder what would become of Pantheon if Daybreak actually listened to the EQ vets and fixed the games they now own. Obviously they'd have to fire Smed but pulling this off isn't entirely impossible is it?
I am not sure what would be so funny about it as I played both games for years but that would be something you would need to speak to DayBreak about, since they have full control over both EQ and VG IPs.
This will not however affect Pantheon in the slightest, we are on track and hitting our targets and look forward to releasing our game to our supporters for testing within 6-9 months. The internal client that we run around in almost daily is more fun exploring than most of the games I have played in the last year or more, so we will have to wait and see what our community says
As to your Miley comment, it's not my style of music personally but if she gets you tapping your foot then good for you I suppose? It does however baffle me when I see these comments though, we have such a talented and dedicated team working on the game and the measurable progress in such a short time is very impressive to say the least, so it is definitely "happening" and is in full swing as we speak.
Having been a long time(6 years+) Everquest 1 player, and an avid Vanguard player, I know my pallet is missing something similar to either one of those. Nothing that has come out since those two games has come even remotely close to giving the same sense of adventure and fun. One thing I do hope Pantheon has is a similar class system to Vanguards. I know after playing Vanguard from launch to shut down, the Blood Mage was by far the funnest, most enjoyable, engaging class I have ever played in my 16 years of playing MMO's. No game developer has come even close to replicating the feeling you got playing the Blood Mage. Hell, even the EQ1 Enchanter if you played it to the max(i.e. Charming insanely powerful mobs to do your bidding... risk vs reward) was more fun, and challenging than anything that has come out.
Another thing I hope to see from Pantheon is better animations... I know it's still very early in it's development stage but from what I have seen so far from it, the animations look horrendous(sorry but no offense, they do) the fighting animations and running animations seem so unbelievably stiff. I hope they get better as time goes. I know for one, I would support this game if it gives that same epic feeling that EQ1 and Vanguard did. Talking about truly astonishing worlds to play in. Vanguard's world alone, stlll beats anything out to this very day. Talking about massive and I sure as hell hope you guys follow Vanguards dungeon system. The open dungeons in the world were flatout amazing!
I believe most of what you see regarding characters models and their animations are currently place holders. From what I've gathered, they are still trying to decide much of what they want regarding the art and feel of the races.
As much as I hate that so much will be judged on the alpha look of things, I hope they get those aspects up to par immediately so that future videos will be more likely to garner support.
Just wanted to agree on the class thing! Of the dozens of MMOs I've played, nothing topped classes in Vanguard. They were like EQ on steroids. I never played the blood mage, but it was such a great idea. I played a disciple and it was hands down my favorite class of all time. I sorta wish they'd implement some of the classes or class abilities into the Pantheon classes. You can't go wrong with straight up DnD classes but Vanguard was such a step further in the right direction after EQ. I hope we won't see things move backwards.
When EQ launched and for years afterward, no one would have considered 100-500k subs niche. The only reason we're having a discussion about what niche means is because of World of Warcraft and the 10M subs. Niche really doesn't matter anymore since it is pretty unlikely any MMO will ever rival what WoW did. What does matter is whether development costs are in proportion to expected revenue.
Look at Project Gorgon - I see people saying this is one guy doing all of the programming. If he gets 250 guys paying him $20 a month he's covering his costs.
Truth there, but nevertheless there are always going to be certain games with more mass appeal. This was 2007 and that was over 2 years into WoW. Niche isn't bad, but a lot of great games will fall into that category if they cater to a specific audience.
Vanguard was originally slated as a more hardcore mmorpg with heavier emphasis on the RPG part (though it changed). With its original features regarding elements like travel, harsh death, and slower combat-based progression, it was unlikely to appeal to the average player. Thats not a bad thing, its just the way any good (hardcore) game will be in my opinion. I don't care if Pantheon launches with 5 years worth of content and the best graphics ever seen, things like slower progression and painful death penalties will always ward off casual gamers.
I completely agree. When you browse the bulk of threads here at MMORPG you do get a tremendous sense that while it's one site, there are multiple audiences. WoW brought in a landslide of people that will never be looking to play a game like we're discussing here. And that's fine. That population of gamers didn't exist until the WotLK expansion anyway as WoW was getting dumbed* down to the point that accessibility was king and game play was a back burner issue.
So I think it is safe for any game developer nowadays to set aside the pie that is the 9 million WoW brought in, because they aren't really accessible to a game that aspires to be more than an achievement and pet collection game.
... OK wow... you're posting way faster than is humanly possible. I'd better wrap this up so I can read the rest of this thread :P
*dumbed = made more accessible with fewer people, less effort and time. Not a judgement on the intelligence of people that choose to collect pets and mounts rather than adventure in open world dungeons.
Having been a long time(6 years+) Everquest 1 player, and an avid Vanguard player, I know my pallet is missing something similar to either one of those. Nothing that has come out since those two games has come even remotely close to giving the same sense of adventure and fun. One thing I do hope Pantheon has is a similar class system to Vanguards. I know after playing Vanguard from launch to shut down, the Blood Mage was by far the funnest, most enjoyable, engaging class I have ever played in my 16 years of playing MMO's. No game developer has come even close to replicating the feeling you got playing the Blood Mage. Hell, even the EQ1 Enchanter if you played it to the max(i.e. Charming insanely powerful mobs to do your bidding... risk vs reward) was more fun, and challenging than anything that has come out.
I don't want to open a can of wurms here but wasn't there supposed to be a necromancer class in Pantheon?
Fundamentally Vanguard had great Classes and the best, most beautiful Sky a MMOrpg ever had.
To bad they screwed the rest so bad it could never lift off and then time eventually runs over you and leaves you behind.
Dont ressurect dead Horses - breed new Horses and use the lessons learned and keep things that would have worked to make them better!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Originally posted by Thebeasttt Wouldn't it be a hilarious twist if daybreak resurrected Vanguard, made it a AAA sandbox and reverted EQ1 back to the glory days, completely eliminating the need for Pantheon altogether?
I mean Miley Cyrus's virginity is more likely then this actually happening but I wonder what would become of Pantheon if Daybreak actually listened to the EQ vets and fixed the games they now own. Obviously they'd have to fire Smed but pulling this off isn't entirely impossible is it?
I am not sure what would be so funny about it as I played both games for years but that would be something you would need to speak to DayBreak about, since they have full control over both EQ and VG IPs.
This will not however affect Pantheon in the slightest, we are on track and hitting our targets and look forward to releasing our game to our supporters for testing within 6-9 months. The internal client that we run around in almost daily is more fun exploring than most of the games I have played in the last year or more, so we will have to wait and see what our community says
As to your Miley comment, it's not my style of music personally but if she gets you tapping your foot then good for you I suppose? It does however baffle me when I see these comments though, we have such a talented and dedicated team working on the game and the measurable progress in such a short time is very impressive to say the least, so it is definitely "happening" and is in full swing as we speak.
Having been a long time(6 years+) Everquest 1 player, and an avid Vanguard player, I know my pallet is missing something similar to either one of those. Nothing that has come out since those two games has come even remotely close to giving the same sense of adventure and fun. One thing I do hope Pantheon has is a similar class system to Vanguards. I know after playing Vanguard from launch to shut down, the Blood Mage was by far the funnest, most enjoyable, engaging class I have ever played in my 16 years of playing MMO's. No game developer has come even close to replicating the feeling you got playing the Blood Mage. Hell, even the EQ1 Enchanter if you played it to the max(i.e. Charming insanely powerful mobs to do your bidding... risk vs reward) was more fun, and challenging than anything that has come out.
Another thing I hope to see from Pantheon is better animations... I know it's still very early in it's development stage but from what I have seen so far from it, the animations look horrendous(sorry but no offense, they do) the fighting animations and running animations seem so unbelievably stiff. I hope they get better as time goes. I know for one, I would support this game if it gives that same epic feeling that EQ1 and Vanguard did. Talking about truly astonishing worlds to play in. Vanguard's world alone, stlll beats anything out to this very day. Talking about massive and I sure as hell hope you guys follow Vanguards dungeon system. The open dungeons in the world were flatout amazing!
I believe most of what you see regarding characters models and their animations are currently place holders. From what I've gathered, they are still trying to decide much of what they want regarding the art and feel of the races.
As much as I hate that so much will be judged on the alpha look of things, I hope they get those aspects up to par immediately so that future videos will be more likely to garner support.
They dont have a character artist / modeler or an animator yet. They may never improve if they do not get more funding.
At least one of the questions in the questionnaire posted here earlier asked about preferences in character modeling. It seems clear that what they are using now (including some animations or lack thereof) are placeholders looking for direction.
I don't want to open a can of wurms here but wasn't there supposed to be a necromancer class in Pantheon?
I and others have asked for the necromancer class - it is not currently available. One of the developer Roundtable questions I have posed for the next session (or the following) is about class design. Currently, the Summoner class appears to be the closest. During the first development team, the classes had two paths they could choose. If that "2 path" model is still used, I am hoping for some Dark Adept base class with an EQesque Necromancer and a VGesque Bloodmage as the path choices.
And, back on topic.. I quit EQlive fairly recently. Daybreak would have to blow up the whole game at this point to make it even close to being successful and attract old EQ vets. Even the progression servers weren't "true" Vanilla EQ. P1999 is the closest thing and as others have said - it is free. And, many of those that are currently still playing EQ are tied to their characters/stats etc - they wouldn't be too happy losing all their gear to play a EQ relaunched. I have talked to plenty though that would be happy to try out Pantheon if it were to be successfully launched.
Originally posted by Samatman At least one of the questions in the questionnaire posted here earlier asked about preferences in character modeling. It seems clear that what they are using now (including some animations or lack thereof) are placeholders looking for direction.
This. Was about to quote it but I saw your post.
This tells me that though they may not have the artist, they are planning something better. That was also in an update a couple months ago where they admit the current graphics besides the world itself are bad and they will be improving them as soon as possible. I hope this is the case because every video that includes poor character models and animations will live forever on the internet and be bad advertising in the months/years to come.
Final Fantasy XIV is niche and had a AAA budget. Many consider ESO niche and it had a AAA budget. GW2 is a fairly niche game and it also had an AAA budget. Lo and behold, all of them make a profit and chances are, pretty decent profits. These games, despite their current costs are quite profitable if they maintain moderate numbers for several years. Depending on initial costs, that could be a couple hundred thousand up to a million, which all of the above newer niche games have been doing for a year or more.
EQ is still considered a AAA game and maintains over 200,000 after more than 10 years. You have a warped sense of what is successful and profitable.
You're smoking some serious crack if you think FFXIV or GW2 are even remotely niche games. The creator of FFXIV even stated he was developing it for the WoW crowd and the game is obviously a themepark in every way. Same with GW2 except for the absence of the trinity, which just got dumbed down to dps/dps/dps instead.
Also EQ1 has nowhere near 200k players on F2P, let alone players actually buying stuff. Even 80k is being generous with a chunk of those being F2P boxed accounts that are ten levels behind the latest expansion. Being a niche game has absolutely nothing to do with how many subscribers you currently have anyways. You have a warped sense of what niche even means.
Vanguard would never be anything other than a niche game.
Since you consider EQ a "nice game", too, well thats probably true. I guess all MMOs, except maybe WoW, are "niche game" to you.
However officially Vanguard was planned as a AAA game and it would have been one, if Microsoft had not stopped development long before the game was ready, and had not SOE published the unfinished game and took years to finish it.
Vanguard was stopped by a milliard of bugs and much too high hardware requirements. Not because it was "niche".
Vanguard would never be anything other than a niche game.
Since you consider EQ a "nice game", too, well thats probably true. I guess all MMOs, except maybe WoW, are "niche game" to you.
However officially Vanguard was planned as a AAA game and it would have been one, if Microsoft had not stopped development long before the game was ready, and had not SOE published the unfinished game and took years to finish it.
Vanguard was stopped by a milliard of bugs and much too high hardware requirements. Not because it was "niche".
Microsoft stopped funding development when they realized Brad [mod edit] McQuaid was wasting their money and Sigil had NOTHING to show them at milestones outside of a small hacked together "demo".
SOE did the few gamers that still wanted Vanguard a favor by even bothering to buy up Sigil ( and that was mostly because Smedley and Brad were friends so Smed basically used SOE to bail out the dipshit cokehead.
The only one ultimately and completely responsible for Vanguard being a red headed stepchild of the mmo world is Brad McQuaid. [mod edit]
More revisionist crap.
Regardless of their progress, there was a staffing change at microsoft which, in turn, resulting in the new guy pulling their funding from Vanguard.
Vanguard even in its unfinished state was still miles ahead of EQ2 in every way other than raid content. Keeping Vanguard out of the hands of someone who could have finished it and continued development was a good move.
Wouldn't it be a hilarious twist if daybreak resurrected Vanguard, made it a AAA sandbox and reverted EQ1 back to the glory days, completely eliminating the need for Pantheon altogether?
I mean Miley Cyrus's virginity is more likely then this actually happening but I wonder what would become of Pantheon if Daybreak actually listened to the EQ vets and fixed the games they now own. Obviously they'd have to fire Smed but pulling this off isn't entirely impossible is it?
Vanguard was a half finished buggy piece of crap. It had some nice open landscapes but the rest of the game was unfinished shite.
Comments
Truth there, but nevertheless there are always going to be certain games with more mass appeal. This was 2007 and that was over 2 years into WoW. Niche isn't bad, but a lot of great games will fall into that category if they cater to a specific audience.
Vanguard was originally slated as a more hardcore mmorpg with heavier emphasis on the RPG part (though it changed). With its original features regarding elements like travel, harsh death, and slower combat-based progression, it was unlikely to appeal to the average player. Thats not a bad thing, its just the way any good (hardcore) game will be in my opinion. I don't care if Pantheon launches with 5 years worth of content and the best graphics ever seen, things like slower progression and painful death penalties will always ward off casual gamers.
I believe most of what you see regarding characters models and their animations are currently place holders. From what I've gathered, they are still trying to decide much of what they want regarding the art and feel of the races.
As much as I hate that so much will be judged on the alpha look of things, I hope they get those aspects up to par immediately so that future videos will be more likely to garner support.
triple post!
Just wanted to agree on the class thing! Of the dozens of MMOs I've played, nothing topped classes in Vanguard. They were like EQ on steroids. I never played the blood mage, but it was such a great idea. I played a disciple and it was hands down my favorite class of all time. I sorta wish they'd implement some of the classes or class abilities into the Pantheon classes. You can't go wrong with straight up DnD classes but Vanguard was such a step further in the right direction after EQ. I hope we won't see things move backwards.
@mackaveli44
did you go by Mackaveli in EQ? I knew one.
I completely agree. When you browse the bulk of threads here at MMORPG you do get a tremendous sense that while it's one site, there are multiple audiences. WoW brought in a landslide of people that will never be looking to play a game like we're discussing here. And that's fine. That population of gamers didn't exist until the WotLK expansion anyway as WoW was getting dumbed* down to the point that accessibility was king and game play was a back burner issue.
So I think it is safe for any game developer nowadays to set aside the pie that is the 9 million WoW brought in, because they aren't really accessible to a game that aspires to be more than an achievement and pet collection game.
... OK wow... you're posting way faster than is humanly possible. I'd better wrap this up so I can read the rest of this thread :P
*dumbed = made more accessible with fewer people, less effort and time. Not a judgement on the intelligence of people that choose to collect pets and mounts rather than adventure in open world dungeons.
I don't want to open a can of wurms here but wasn't there supposed to be a necromancer class in Pantheon?
Fundamentally Vanguard had great Classes and the best, most beautiful Sky a MMOrpg ever had.
To bad they screwed the rest so bad it could never lift off and then time eventually runs over you and leaves you behind.
Dont ressurect dead Horses - breed new Horses and use the lessons learned and keep things that would have worked to make them better!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
They dont have a character artist / modeler or an animator yet. They may never improve if they do not get more funding.
I and others have asked for the necromancer class - it is not currently available. One of the developer Roundtable questions I have posed for the next session (or the following) is about class design. Currently, the Summoner class appears to be the closest. During the first development team, the classes had two paths they could choose. If that "2 path" model is still used, I am hoping for some Dark Adept base class with an EQesque Necromancer and a VGesque Bloodmage as the path choices.
And, back on topic.. I quit EQlive fairly recently. Daybreak would have to blow up the whole game at this point to make it even close to being successful and attract old EQ vets. Even the progression servers weren't "true" Vanilla EQ. P1999 is the closest thing and as others have said - it is free. And, many of those that are currently still playing EQ are tied to their characters/stats etc - they wouldn't be too happy losing all their gear to play a EQ relaunched. I have talked to plenty though that would be happy to try out Pantheon if it were to be successfully launched.
This. Was about to quote it but I saw your post.
This tells me that though they may not have the artist, they are planning something better. That was also in an update a couple months ago where they admit the current graphics besides the world itself are bad and they will be improving them as soon as possible. I hope this is the case because every video that includes poor character models and animations will live forever on the internet and be bad advertising in the months/years to come.
You're smoking some serious crack if you think FFXIV or GW2 are even remotely niche games. The creator of FFXIV even stated he was developing it for the WoW crowd and the game is obviously a themepark in every way. Same with GW2 except for the absence of the trinity, which just got dumbed down to dps/dps/dps instead.
Also EQ1 has nowhere near 200k players on F2P, let alone players actually buying stuff. Even 80k is being generous with a chunk of those being F2P boxed accounts that are ten levels behind the latest expansion. Being a niche game has absolutely nothing to do with how many subscribers you currently have anyways. You have a warped sense of what niche even means.
Since you consider EQ a "nice game", too, well thats probably true. I guess all MMOs, except maybe WoW, are "niche game" to you.
However officially Vanguard was planned as a AAA game and it would have been one, if Microsoft had not stopped development long before the game was ready, and had not SOE published the unfinished game and took years to finish it.
Vanguard was stopped by a milliard of bugs and much too high hardware requirements. Not because it was "niche".
More revisionist crap.
Regardless of their progress, there was a staffing change at microsoft which, in turn, resulting in the new guy pulling their funding from Vanguard.
Vanguard even in its unfinished state was still miles ahead of EQ2 in every way other than raid content. Keeping Vanguard out of the hands of someone who could have finished it and continued development was a good move.
Vanguard was a half finished buggy piece of crap. It had some nice open landscapes but the rest of the game was unfinished shite.