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The mass exodus from massively is hitting our forums!

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  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Originally posted by Scot
    @nari That's why modern MMOs are so mediocre Nari, it is not a cause for celebration. But what I think many do not see is that the direction is ever smaller, more casino. This design path has not come to a end by any means.

    Exactly. Instead of shooting for the pride of releasing imaginative entertainment, they're blurring the lines of commercialism and predatory behavior, resigning to an obvious formula targeting impulsivity. They're basically saying, "We can't come up with something new and innovative, so in the meantime we'll earn income preying on people who can't help it". Exactly like a casino, they're plotting the bells and whistles that elicit mechanical response. They're building psychological "tourist traps" online. It's really sad.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,907

    When Is MMORPG supposed to get that website upgrade they were mentioning a few months back?  The speed on this site has improved slighty but not enough to support this "exodus."

  • CecropiaCecropia Member UncommonPosts: 3,972
    Originally posted by Illius
    I just want to know, now that Massively is shut down, what other site is Narriusseldon gonna use to back up his endless crusade to change the meaning of the terms that we use to define a genre.  

    SuperDooperData.com, and this site's Game List (until it's incoming update). That's about it.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 2,820

    Could it be possible... now bear with me, this is a real CRAZY idea, I can't even believe I'm saying this... could it be POSSIBLE that people actually read and frequent more than 1 mmorpg website and there really isn't ANY exodus because they're already HERE?

     

    • If a game has non-blondes with freckles, it's political
    • If a game has a female lead, it's political
    • If a game has non-white people, it's political
    • If a game has non-heterosexual people in it, it's political
    • If a game tries to avoid having underage objectification in it, it's political
    • If a game attempts to curb hate speech and toxicity, it's political
    • If a game removes crying FROG or confederate imagery, it's f#$%ing political


    There's always going to be some slack jawed yokel peon who takes stuff like this as a shot at THEIR liberty and freedom, and that's what is hilarious.

    Working hard to live, and working hard to respectfully EXIST are not the same.
  • muppetpilotmuppetpilot Member UncommonPosts: 171
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.

     

    You have a very valid point. However I would add to what you are saying by offering that the overall quality of MMOs has really gone downhill in recent years. I think there are some very big reasons why the "old guard" of games like WoW, Guild Wars 1, EQ, and Eve still have so many players, and I think one of the primary reasons for that is that those games simply have many times more content than anything released in the past, what, five years?

    You are correct in that many games seem to be more short-term in their approach. I also think we are seeing a scary amount of cash-grabs, and this has resulted in a lot of mistrust from MMO players in general. I've lost count of how many games were purported to be the new saviors of the genre, then fell flat on their faces due mainly to an overall lack of quality. I don't mean polish, I mean subpar community options, lack of things to do in-game, catering to only one or two subsets of players, and so on. I think many devs would tell you they are simply responding to the market with easy-mode and cash shops, but in my opinion that shows a lack of being able to think outside the box. The "old guard" games don't only contain easy-mode, although it can be run as an option; I think they contain enough differing things to make them appeal to a large swath of players, thus their extended lives. I believe a lot of these companies have simply forgotten that if you want to maintain a player base, you need to be able to both attract and retain as many people as possible. You can't do that by forcing people to your in-game shop in order for them to progress, and you surely can't do it by expecting 90% of your population to participate in difficult content.  

     

    "Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune

  • olepiolepi Member UncommonPosts: 1,247

    (With apologies to Monty Python)

    Massively newcomers: "Hi, we're here for an argument."

    MMORPG: "No you're not."

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.


  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    I heard they were all headed to mmo-champion and 2P.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,767
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Illius
    I just want to know, now that Massively is shut down, what other site is Narriusseldon gonna use to back up his endless crusade to change the meaning of the terms that we use to define a genre.  

    SuperDooperData.com, and this site's Game List (until it's incoming update). That's about it.

    mmofront.com, all the review sites ... and of course quote massively.com .... to point out that HISTORICALLY the meaning of MMO has already been changed in the past.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,767
    Originally posted by Scot
    @nari That's why modern MMOs are so mediocre Nari, it is not a cause for celebration. But what I think many do not see is that the direction is ever smaller, more casino. This design path has not come to a end by any means.

     

    Of course it is a cause of celebration for those who like convenient more game-like MMOs. Mediocre is subjective. I think Marvel Heroes .... much more a game than a MMO is great and better than UO and EQ combined ... because they fit my preferences.

    Smaller is good .. smaller and more games to choose from. And sure .. it will not come to an end until it is no longer successful.

    Just like it takes years for the big virtual world MMOs to come to an end.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,067
    Originally posted by sludgebeard
     

    This site has more character, you haven't really been a part of the community here, unless you have been banned a few times or received countless warnings for habitual trolling.

    If thats the criteria I must be the mayor.....

  • DarienTalemDarienTalem Member UncommonPosts: 14
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by muppetpilot
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why?

    This isn't an issue with just Massively. AOL closed down its entire video game entertainment site, Joystiq, which Massively and WoW Insider ran under.

    If anything, Massively was caught in the line of fire from its parent company being shuttered.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 17,650
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.

    What mmos does AoL have in its stable?

    *INCOMING RADIOACTIVE SUPERCELL*
    ...silent protagonist, Interloper, Traveller, Anomaly...


  • JJthomasJJthomas Member Posts: 8
    Would like to see some of the staff like Larry Everett find a home here. this site and massivly was the first sites I hit for MMO news when i wake up monday morning.
  • MendelMendel Member RarePosts: 2,551
    Originally posted by Adjuvant1
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Adjuvant1
    Originally posted by Howbadisbad
    I haven't really noticed any negative changes in quality of posts recently, could they really be as bad as us?   F2P sucks!
    P2P sucks!
    Archeage is good guys I swear!
    Full loot pvp? enjoy your greifer game!
    Early access is such a scam!
    This newly announced game is definitely gonna be the best game ever!
    Why is a non mmo being featured?
    Im never buying from Trion/SOE again!
    Enjoy your themeparks casuals!
    These graphics are from 1980!

    But "early access", in the form of "paid alpha test", is a scam. :/ The rest is true, though! :)

    As long as the devs are very clear about the fact that you are paying for a completely unfinished alpha game - I don't see how it's a scam.

    If I stand on the street corner and sell an empty brown paper bag for $50 that is clearly marked as an empty bag, nothing inside of it - and tell people very clearly that it's just an empty bag - it's not a scam.

    In most cases the issue with EA games is players are willing to throw money at anything.

    Because, as I've said before in other threads, alpha testing, by classic definition, is a paid, in-house position, not the "buyer beware" thing indie devs have made it. It's like someone got this idea one day to make people pay for half- or even quarter-finished games and said, "We'll call it alpha! YA! Early access! Everyone wants to be a playtester!". So you have all these people, soaked of cash, running around with this strange thought in their heads they're suddenly educated in such a manner, because opinion and payment are education, to be able to contribute to making a "better game". It's rubbish and I scoff at the idea. You can have your opinion "it's neat" or even "great", but you've been duped. Don't call me a troll, it's honestly how I see it.

    They're selling promises with no recourse for failure. "But the disclaimer...". Screw that disclaimer. It's a scam.

    I agree with Adjuvant on this.  If the operation is an alpha test, then the company should do a complete wipe of servers and characters before proceeding.   When was the last time any of these paid early access games performed a character wipe?  I've not heard that particular outcry.  Or more likely, been locked out of MMORPG.com due to the volume of posts complaining about it.

    I will correct Adjuvant's point about paid early access being an indie dev thing.  Take a look SOE's way.  Love them or hate them, everyone will have to admit that SOE isn't an indie developer.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ScotScot Member EpicPosts: 9,287

    @Antiquated - If you never played an old school MMO you are going to think a phone app 'MMO' is great I am sure. But that does not mean it is a great game. I take your point on how we must seem to new comers to the genre though. I wish I could do more positive posts, but do people want me to be going on about how great ESO is? I think you would soon get tired of that. :)

    @Adjuant1 - "They're basically saying, "We can't come up with something new and innovative, so in the meantime we'll earn income preying on people who can't help it." - This is how I feel, they seem to have given up on new gameplay or better gameplay being why we want to play a new MMO. Instead they have gone for a Pavlov's dog model to keep players locked into the game.

    @muppetpilot - I agree about the content and you are right, many old school gaming systems were not that solid. I also think MMO companies are giving up on the idea of long term players, short term design is now the norm.

    @nari - Smaller is not good, smaller is a decent option, it should not be the be all and end all.

    @Enbysra - It seems me that many gaming companies have decided exactly how the F2P system should work. As a casino rip off that puts playing the cash shop before playing the game. But I hold some hope for what you say, perhaps they will think of a better way of integrating cash shops and gameplay. PoE is an example that you can do things differently. I don't know whats going on with EVE but if it has gone P2W that's a great shame.

    I agree about the sports analogy, but not the TV one. TV is now all about short term design, this is happening right across the entertainment industry. Rather than go into that in depth here, just think about how many new series are made these days and how few of them get to a second series. Sound like MMOs to anyone?

    I certainly agree that variety of gameplay is the key, that is one of the main issues with MMOs.

    @DarienTalem - "AOL closed down its entire video game entertainment site, Joystiq, which Massively and WoW Insider ran under." Even more of a question as to how healthy the industry is then.

    @Tovadar - AOL used to do NWN, but are they not now part of Times-Warner? TW bought out Turbine which runs Lotro. If thats right you have a parent company which is shutting down the video games section of one arm, while another is still running a MMO. Not good.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • EstrangeEstrange Member Posts: 29
    I've had an account here, just preferred to post over at the other place. Our hobby is a niche industry, let us hope for the success of the games and news reporters.

    You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus. - Mark Twain

  • SatyrosSatyros Member UncommonPosts: 156
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.  

     

    It makes perfect sence..

    MMO started off being played by few. Those who trully enjoy group content and the genre in general.

    Then WoW  made a huge profit and convinced irrelevant to the genre companies to reach for a piece of the pie.

    Dumbing it down to be more apealing to new players was the next logical step, because thats the best way to expand the population/profit.

    Then they found other ways... MMOFPS, MMORTS, MMORacing. They do everything they can to lure in more people.

    And what all these people have in common is that deep down they don't like MMO elements. 

    It's not their cup of tea, so they can't commit and all they do is cause problems with overpopulated launches / empty servers 1 month later.

    Imagine World of Tanks investing in Tank-Pilot appearance customization to lure in the roleplaying crowd instead of adding more tanks..

    Now the circle is closing by MMO being crowdfunded and intended for a specific audience.

    They revert back to their former niche character.

    And this should not be viewed as a bad thing.

     

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by Satyros

    They revert back to their former niche character. And this should not be viewed as a bad thing.  

    True, but I have been spoiled.  Indie, kickstarter and small budget projects are not enough anymore. Simple revert back to 90s/early 00s-like mmorpg entertainment is not gonna cut it.   Mainstream AAA MMORPGs are bland, uninteresting, have microtransactions and are tailored for mass-appeal which I don't fit into.

    What I want is AAA budget&quality and an niche design.

    I doubt I'll get that, so my MMORPG days are over :)

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    Originally posted by Satyros They revert back to their former niche character. And this should not be viewed as a bad thing.

    And the handful of guys still desperately clinging to the past get their turn of the century back?

    Why hasn't anyone ever thought of this?!?

    Oh, right. That's not a profitable business model.

    "What do you think, Jim, should we settle for Niche profits?"

    "Hell no. What community college did you get your business degree from?"

  • sludgebeardsludgebeard Member UncommonPosts: 788

    You know what the funny part is? 

     

    Everyone gives MMORPG.COM flak because they incorporate RPG's, JRPG's, CO-OP Online games, Singleplayer Spin-off's of MMO's, into their categories.

     

    And guess what? This site is still going for that reason. Yes MMO's are dead, we can comfortably say that now, but this site has adapted well enough to survive.

     

    Although I still feel like my weekly show "Sludge-Beard's Afternoon Delight" would increase rating's ten-fold :P

  • TimesplitTimesplit Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by Satyros
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.  

     

    It makes perfect sence..

    MMO started off being played by few. Those who trully enjoy group content and the genre in general.

    Then WoW  made a huge profit and convinced irrelevant to the genre companies to reach for a piece of the pie.

    Dumbing it down to be more apealing to new players was the next logical step, because thats the best way to expand the population/profit.

    Then they found other ways... MMOFPS, MMORTS, MMORacing. They do everything they can to lure in more people.

    And what all these people have in common is that deep down they don't like MMO elements. 

    It's not their cup of tea, so they can't commit and all they do is cause problems with overpopulated launches / empty servers 1 month later.

    Imagine World of Tanks investing in Tank-Pilot appearance customization to lure in the roleplaying crowd instead of adding more tanks..

    Now the circle is closing by MMO being crowdfunded and intended for a specific audience.

    They revert back to their former niche character.

    And this should not be viewed as a bad thing.

     

    As long as we can show there's a tight knit community, then we can show the few companies developing proper niche games, that it's sustainable for them. If they're not looking to make cash at the expense of the game itself, like Blizzard does, it's all good for us.

    The niche in Camelot Unchained is what i'm looking for right now, i'm not sure if Lineage Eternal or Lost Ark can be considered niche.

     

    @Sludgebeard, i don't really care if they broaden their game perspective at this time, as long as they don't start reviewing shampoo products or something else irrelevant. Not that it would make much difference, but i do wish they would clean up the non-MMO's that are listed.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,180
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.  

    There's a whole different angle to look at this from. While it's entirely possible the genre is slowing to a grind right now. It's also possible that this closing has nothing to do with that at all. There are so many outlets to get MMO/gaming news from in this day and age. From twitch streams to youtube to countless sites... Running an operation the scale of massively costs money, covering all of these shows (sending writers there) etc.. May simply not be cost effective to AOL, at least based on the traffic they get. I know it's nice that you can fit this closing into your own narrative where them not making the games you want to see is hurting them... However there are many angles to look at this from...

    As for being worried? Why? if MMORPG's go away, there are plenty of other things to do with that free time.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 6,305
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Scot
    I think posters should be more concerned by why Massively closed. If their ad revenue could not support them, you have to ask why, it had for eight years. AOL has MMOs in its stable, but did not want to run a online MMO magazine, again why? Now there are those among us who think that everything is wonderful in MMO-land, but we have Blizzard cancelling major projects, we have studios shutting down and MMO websites shutting down. The industry has become one of short term gain with casino, easymode MMOs. It does not have the sustainability, even the surety of return that it had five years ago. But it does still make a lot of money, this is blinding people to the issues it has. Bill talking about massively in MMOFTW said "the genre may be in the weird place right now" as a gaming journalist, that's about all you are going to say. The industry has problems, MMOs take more investment and time to make than solo games, but players do not want to play them any longer than they do a solo game. The industry drove this change with everything from easymode to cash shops. They only have themselves to blame.  

    There's a whole different angle to look at this from. While it's entirely possible the genre is slowing to a grind right now. It's also possible that this closing has nothing to do with that at all. There are so many outlets to get MMO/gaming news from in this day and age. From twitch streams to youtube to countless sites... Running an operation the scale of massively costs money, covering all of these shows (sending writers there) etc.. May simply not be cost effective to AOL, at least based on the traffic they get. I know it's nice that you can fit this closing into your own narrative where them not making the games you want to see is hurting them... However there are many angles to look at this from...

    As for being worried? Why? if MMORPG's go away, there are plenty of other things to do with that free time.

    But, it is true that MMO gaming isn't keeping pace with the rest of the industry in terms of growth.  It's losing its piece of the pie (the one largely created by WoW's success), and that's worrisome to game developers and investors looking at getting into the genre.  However, should the average gamer be worried?

    If the average gamer joined the genre because of WoW's splash, then no.  They'll still get tons of multiplayer games, more than likely games that fit their tastes better than an MMO really ever could.

     

    If you're like Scot?  Again, no.  Because I highly doubt the genre will fold, it will just return to the niche from whence it came, and developers who stay in the genre will be the ones with a passion to create an MMORPG.  This will probably lead to fewer new entries (unless there springs a crop of rich investors with that same passion), but those entries will tie themselves more intimately to what makes the genre unique (massive worlds, player interaction in that world, etc.).  So long as Scot and others can deal with not getting AAA budgets, graphics, marketing, etc. then I believe they'll find the genre a much more hospitable place.

    image
  • KyarraKyarra Member UncommonPosts: 776
    I am still hoping they will reform into a new website, I loved reading Massively and this site through the years. Goodbye Massively :(
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