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4k gaming and MMO are pointless.

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  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    The point is, why waste processing power on what is basically an infinitesimal, if not negligible, improvement in graphic quality.

    Exactly, you're trading a massive amount of power for a pixel density advantage that is insignificant in most situations.

    I'll take smooth FPS and more detail in my games than a few more pixels.

    I also don't like the idea of stressing my computer and heating it up for an insignificant advantage. The higher the temperature of your CPU and GPU, the more prone it is to failing, especially when gates are a few nm wide. It's just stupid to stress your machine like that if you don't gain a significant advantage, and you don't with 4k.

    The tradeoff you have to make with 4k makes absolutely no sense.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Here is a video of ppl watching 1080P vs 4K.

    Same content. Same brand. Same environment.

    *Most people had to guess what they were watching

    *Most people didn't think the difference was significant

    *Most people didn't think spending the money on 4k would be worth it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzw1D9dU6ts

     

    I am not surprise.

    Personally i have seen 4K TV in a show room .. and I can't tell the difference unless i am like 5 inches away from the screen. It is a lot of marketing with very little real benefit, at least to me. So i am not paying good money for it.

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,644
    Originally posted by Bascola
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    Good article here:   http://www.cnet.com/news/why-ultra-hd-4k-tvs-are-still-stupid/

    Its obviously better in the right situations.   Just not that many situations.   Its another shiny new toy for the TV makers to take more of your money with.  Like the article states, its coming and it will be a standard.  Just might want to wait before jumping in, to save some money.

    On whatever your current gaming rig is, try turning anti-aliasing off and on.  See if you can tell the difference--and if having anti-aliasing on looks better.  If anti-aliasing makes your game look better, then a higher monitor resolution would make it look better yet.  After all, the entire point of anti-aliasing is to partially (but not entirely!) compensate for the monitor resolution not being as high as would be beneficial.

    I'm not sure what the largest resolution that people would benefit from is, but it's a whole lot higher than 4K.  The human eye has about 125 million rods and cones to detect light at particular points, which could be read as pointing toward 125 million pixels as being the maximum useful.  But they're not distributed uniformly; they're far more densely directed toward whatever you're focusing on than things far off in your peripheral vision.

    I turn AA off when i play my games in 4K. Not only does it cost a lot of GPU cycles, it also is not needed at this resolution. At the distance i am sitting i can see Aliasing only in very rare cases when there is an extremely high contrast area. Even then it is so small that you do not notice it if you are not looking for it.

    I'm not arguing against your approach.  My argument is that if anti-aliasing makes a game look better to you, then a higher monitor resolution with sufficient GPU power to drive it would look better yet.  And if the only difference you can tell from anti-aliasing is lower frame rates, then your monitor resolution is high enough and there's no need to go with anything higher.

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascola

     

    The highlighted area in 1K and besides it 4k:

    1K:    4K: 

     

    Zooming in on objects is a pointless argument. You can argue you need 8k and 16k and 200000k...as long as you keep zooming in.

    The argument makes no sense.

    I never said anything about zooming in, I said you can read the signs in the distance in 4K while you can't in 1K. WITHOUT ZOOMING. The argument is the 4x higher detail.

    Here is a video of ppl watching 1080P vs 4K.

    Same content. Same brand. Same environment.

    *Most people had to guess what they were watching

    *Most people didn't think the difference was significant

    *Most people didn't think spending the money on 4k would be worth it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzw1D9dU6ts

     

    They watched Spiderman 1K Bluray LMAO. It was mastered in 4K but it is not 4K. What is really pointless is watching a 1K Bluray on a 4K display. The movie is not encoded in 4K so how would you see a difference?

     

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Bascola

    1K:    4K: 

     

    WITHOUT ZOOMING. The argument is the 4x higher detail.

    Don't lie, I'm not stupid.

    This is the actual pixel size of that part of your image cropped.

    This is what people would see on their screen. Not the picture you showed zoomed in 4 times.

    A lot smaller than you who zoomed in on the picture.

    I'm not from yesterday.

    Your argument is completely flawed.

    You get pixelaton because you increase the actual size of your image until you get pixelation.

     

    You can use the same argument to prove you need 8k or 16k or 32k or 100000000000k.

    It's a completely false and dishonest argument.

    You could zoom in on an ant in the picture, increase the size, and make the argument you need a 10000000000000k screen.

     

    to prove I cropped it:

     

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Bascol

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

    There's no reason to assume if people can't tell the difference in movies, they could see the difference in games.

    You could make the argument that gamers sit closer to their screen, but I doubt that difference would be enough to tip the balance.

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascola

    1K:    4K: 

     

    WITHOUT ZOOMING. The argument is the 4x higher detail.

    Don't lie, I'm not stupid.

    This is the actual size of that part of your image cropped.

    A lot smaller than you who zoomed in on the picture.

    I'm not from yesterday.

    You get pixelaton because you increase the actual crop.

    If you look at them on 1K and a 4K monitor of the exact same size (let's say 28") Then they take up the exact same amount of room on both monitors (let's say a 2x3" rectangle) just that the 1K is pixelated while the 4K one is not. Exactly what i showed with the comparison. You just don't get it or you are being stubborn.

    Even if you don't resize it's pretty clear which one has more detail which was all i wanted to show.

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascol

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

    There's no reason to assume if people can't tell the difference in movies, they could see the difference in games.

    You could make the argument that gamers sit closer to their screen, but I doubt that difference would be enough to tip the balance.

    WoW, that has to be the most ignorant statement ever made. The movie was a 1080p movie so of cause they can't see a difference.

    You have not even seen a game in 4K but come here arguing nonsense. Please go buy yourself a 4K rig or go to a store and take a look.

    You need to stop talking about things you have no idea of.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Bascola

     You just don't get it or you are being stubborn.

     

    I get just fine what you did.

    You took a crop of your picture, you increased the size through the MMORPG.COM pop up until you could see pixelation.

    Your actual picture is much smaller..

    It's a dishonest way to try to prove that pixelation is being caused at 1080p, YOU caused the pixelation, and you know very well you did it too.

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascola

     You just don't get it or you are being stubborn.

     

    I get just fine what you did.

    You took a crop of your picture, you increased the size through the MMORPG.COM pop up until you could see pixelation.

    Your actual picture is much smaller..

    It's a dishonest way to try to prove that pixelation is being caused at 1080p, YOU caused the pixelation, and you know very well you did it too.

    Sorry, but that is how many pixels you have in a 1K picture, call it pixelations or whatever you want. It does not change the fact that that is the amount of DATA available at 1K

    To compare THEY HAVE TO BE THE SAME SIZE or the comparison is pointless. But since you are obviously not able to grasp a simple concept like this there is no more point in talking to you.

    Have a nice day.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by Bascola
     

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

     

    I do. Gamers don't watch movies and videos?

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascol

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

    There's no reason to assume if people can't tell the difference in movies, they could see the difference in games.

    You could make the argument that gamers sit closer to their screen, but I doubt that difference would be enough to tip the balance.

    I have a 2.5k screen on my phone and I can see the difference. If you can't tell the difference when moving up to 4k you're just not paying attention.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • besteverbestever Member UncommonPosts: 903

    Man this is going strong lol. As someone who owns a 4k tv and built a steam box with a 980 just for this reason can say its a huge jump. I have watched 4k youtube trailers all day before the super bowl and can say they look amazing some almost look 3d its so sharp. My brother was giving me crap about it with some of the scenes, he was like it doesn't look much better, then he was like never mind that is super sharp. After I went back to cable tv he started picking it apart. Its funny when you prove someone wrong.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS7lN7giXXc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4f7GEj58s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWt65ZGMgMI

     

    I'm 10' away and it looks amazing so don't buy into the BS its real.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    eeeeeh,

    I think so. So, I was trying some video on youtube that is 4k, it lags like cazy, on both of my PC. They're very fast, one with an i5, anohter with an i7.

    None of the browsers seem to use the GPU to render, but still, state of the art CPU are not even fast enough to render 4k video. It shows how much extra power you would need to go from 1080p to 4k.

     

    4k would require rendering 4 times as many pixels, to get the same speed as 1080p, you would need 4 times as fast a GPU, 4 times as fast RAM to load 4 times as much texture data, 4 times as much bandwidth.

    If your PC now does 120FPS @ 1080P...it will do 30FPS @ 4k..at best, probably less because you will not even have the bandwidth for it....no sane person is going to accept such a hit in framerate.

    It's neeever gonna happen. At least not in the first couple of years. No one is going to accept 4 times less framerate for a few more pixels.

    I think 4k gaming is meant for the highest end CPUs and GPUs. i5 is completely out of the question. You would probably need the best i7 and the best that Nvidia can offer but that would be ridiculously expensive.

    It's funny how you say that no one is going to accept 4 times less frame rates for "a few more" pixels" yet in your previous paragaraph you mention that it's 4 times more pixels. 4 times more pixels is certainly not a few more pixels. It's 4 times as clear as 1080p.

    A fun fact, there are phones which can shoot 4k and play it back. True they only have 1080p display but they play back 4k just fine.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • besteverbestever Member UncommonPosts: 903
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    eeeeeh,

    I think so. So, I was trying some video on youtube that is 4k, it lags like cazy, on both of my PC. They're very fast, one with an i5, anohter with an i7.

    None of the browsers seem to use the GPU to render, but still, state of the art CPU are not even fast enough to render 4k video. It shows how much extra power you would need to go from 1080p to 4k.

     

    4k would require rendering 4 times as many pixels, to get the same speed as 1080p, you would need 4 times as fast a GPU, 4 times as fast RAM to load 4 times as much texture data, 4 times as much bandwidth.

    If your PC now does 120FPS @ 1080P...it will do 30FPS @ 4k..at best, probably less because you will not even have the bandwidth for it....no sane person is going to accept such a hit in framerate.

    It's neeever gonna happen. At least not in the first couple of years. No one is going to accept 4 times less framerate for a few more pixels.

    I think 4k gaming is meant for the highest end CPUs and GPUs. i5 is completely out of the question. You would probably need the best i7 and the best that Nvidia can offer but that would be ridiculously expensive.

    It's funny how you say that no one is going to accept 4 times less frame rates for "a few more" pixels" yet in your previous paragaraph you mention that it's 4 times more pixels. 4 times more pixels is certainly not a few more pixels. It's 4 times as clear as 1080p.

    A fun fact, there are phones which can shoot 4k and play it back. True they only have 1080p display but they play back 4k just fine.

    A i5 or i7 will give you the better performance for sure but I use an i3 with a 980 and run games at 4k and 1440p. You'll need a newer higher end gpu for sure with at least 4 gigs of ram. I do get some fps dips here and there. I have geforce experience set my setting and tweak from there. I play spec opts the line at 4k maxed out and it looks amazing. Tera online runs at about 45 fps with some dips at high I tweak it a bit and can hit 50fps. I do need to get in a bigger battle on tera to see how much of a dip i would get though.

    Dragon age inquisition I run at 1440p on high/ultra setting and hold 55 fps with drops to 45 so not bad at all. 

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascol

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

    There's no reason to assume if people can't tell the difference in movies, they could see the difference in games.

    You could make the argument that gamers sit closer to their screen, but I doubt that difference would be enough to tip the balance.

    I have a 2.5k screen on my phone and I can see the difference. If you can't tell the difference when moving up to 4k you're just not paying attention.

    Ignore CalmOceans, he/she obviously never has seen anything higher than 1K. The difference is so dramatic it's a completely new experience, at least for me it was. Dragon Age: Inquisition is mind blowing in detail with 4K.

  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 536
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by VastoHorde
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    You are confused in many ways.

    First, video decoding is generally done on the GPU, not the CPU.  The CPU load should typically be minimal for video decoding.

    You seem more confused than he is, the 4k video is heavily taxing the CPU.

    Only if the video decode block on the GPU can't handle it.

    It's going to tax every single CPU. Do the test, run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk9J5xnTVMA in 4k, do CTRL-ALT-DEL and check your CPU. It's going to be taxed heavily.

    That's the decoding on the CPU.

    People severely overestimate what is being hardware accelerated, it's less than you think.

     

    CPU 50%-60% at 4K

    CPU 12%-20% at 1080P

    Tested the video in Chrome running an AMD FX 8350 and Radeon 7970GHZ

    Same for me, 4k puts a massive amount of load on my CPU? and my GPU is brand new.

    Not sure why the guy called me "confused", when my CPU is loaded at 60% it's using the CPU. Can't be more simple than that.

    Idle: 4% CPU, 0% GPU.

    Playing the video in 4k: 10% CPU, 44% GPU.

    Early 2013 MacBook Pro.

  • besteverbestever Member UncommonPosts: 903
    Originally posted by Bascola
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Bascol

    This is a gaming site, who cares about movies and videos.

    You obviously never seen a game in 4K. The difference is anything but small.

    There's no reason to assume if people can't tell the difference in movies, they could see the difference in games.

    You could make the argument that gamers sit closer to their screen, but I doubt that difference would be enough to tip the balance.

    I have a 2.5k screen on my phone and I can see the difference. If you can't tell the difference when moving up to 4k you're just not paying attention.

    Ignore CalmOceans, he/she obviously never has seen anything higher than 1K. The difference is so dramatic it's a completely new experience, at least for me it was. Dragon Age: Inquisition is mind blowing in detail with 4K.

    It is and im only running it at 1440p. Yea calmocean is trying super hard to prove you/us wrong. Its pretty hard to prove someone wrong when they play and watch stuff at 4k. Its just amazing how good it looks.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130

    I think a lot of people are trying very hard to justify their 4k purchase lol.

    All the people who say you can tell 4k from 1080p are anecdotal.

    "oh yes, I can tell the difference"...ok....I'm sure you can image

     

    The experts are saying something else!

    They are saying you can't tell!

    Let's look at the actual evidence.

    http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/

    THX and Sony support this data.

     

    Experts with measuring equipment who have studied this, are saying there's no way that a human can see the difference at a normal distance

    Some anecdotal people who bought 4k, are saying you can.

    I'll go with the experts lol.

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,888
    There is so little content thats 4K that owning a 4k TV or monitor is a "I had it first" Badge. Till you start seeing shows, movies, and other media being done standard in 4k its just not worth it. Most places 720p is just becoming the standard. 1080p conversion is still taking place. We are years off from 4k standards. 



  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    To me 4K is not worth it at the moment.  If the prices come down and they are able to improve video card performance while reducing power consumption maybe one day it will be worth it.  I'd imagine you need to have one super video card that costs about 1000 or more dollars or a SLI/Crossfire that produces the same.  1080p still looks pretty darn good.  It's a far cry from the days of monochrome and super low resolutions.  Sometimes having better graphics actually limits and MMO.  For instance Everquuest still has more complex dungeons, zones, and buildings than most modern day MMOs and much of that is it's low quality/blocky objects.  The textures are still quite nice though.  They give the game a real Forgotten Realms type of feeling.
  • TimesplitTimesplit Member UncommonPosts: 191

    I don't think 4K is as far away as people think / want it to be. PC gaming certainly seems to be what's pushing it forward currently, and G-sync is going to make FPS much, much more bearable when playing with it. As soon as the elder generations have passed away, expect to see a more general push as far as technology goes.

     

    And Sony? Experts? They should've dropped their TV business a long time ago.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    Originally posted by Timesplit

    I don't think 4K is as far away as people think / want it to be. PC gaming certainly seems to be what's pushing it forward currently, and G-sync is going to make FPS much, much more bearable when playing with it. As soon as the elder generations have passed away, expect to see a more general push as far as technology goes.

     

    And Sony? Experts? They should've dropped their TV business a long time ago.

    The elder generations?  LOL

    I agree that in a gaming situation is where you will see the most difference, assuming your monitor is quite large, ( I would think at least 32 inch and up) and you are sitting the usual < 5 feet distance from the screen.   Also most likely to see the most 4 K content, with games.

    Large screen projection will also benefit.  It is the average Joe with the 60 inch screen sitting at the usual 8 to 10 foot distance that probably won't notice anything dramatic.

    Also the amount of improvement is subjective and different for everyone.   Your experience may vary, should be the disclaimer.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,870
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    To me 4K is not worth it at the moment.  If the prices come down and they are able to improve video card performance while reducing power consumption maybe one day it will be worth it.  I'd imagine you need to have one super video card that costs about 1000 or more dollars or a SLI/Crossfire that produces the same.  1080p still looks pretty darn good.  It's a far cry from the days of monochrome and super low resolutions.  Sometimes having better graphics actually limits and MMO.  For instance Everquuest still has more complex dungeons, zones, and buildings than most modern day MMOs and much of that is it's low quality/blocky objects.  The textures are still quite nice though.  They give the game a real Forgotten Realms type of feeling.

    The way things are going you will just need a TV - forget the computer - if you look at the way TVs are going they are becoming very powerful. And mass production will take care of the cost. As you say though this type of discussion has come up many times. Just a question of time.  

    Rasberry Pie 2 was announced today as well: same size; quad core processor; 1GB memory; c. 6 times more powerful; able to run Windows 10 in the future announced; $35 price tag ex. tax. Enough said. 

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Timesplit

    And Sony? Experts? They should've dropped their TV business a long time ago.

    Sony doesn't make TV panels, they are Samsung and LG panels.

    Most people think there are like 20 TV makers, only 3 companies make TV panels afaik, LG, Samsung and AUoptronics.

    I have heard of a 4th Chinese panel maker, but I'm not sure how far they are right now wtih development.

    I don't believe Sharp is still heavily involved in panel making, they used to be.

    Sony has also said they are now focusing on the playstation brand and no longer on TV.

     

    However, Sony is involved in the 4k camera business. So they do know what they're talking about.

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