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Given Features You Do Not Like in MMORPGs... How would you design it?

ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

 

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  • vaktu.comvaktu.com Member Posts: 16

    In Morrowind you had the skills built up through use. And in Diablo 3, while still having the levels (which give very limited perks), you measure the characters performance by the gear he is wearing. Also, there are RPGs where you can gain hundreds of levels in a single fight :) And there are role playing games without levels system, like Second life.

    Originally posted by Enbysra
    • Further still, another form of progression could have nothing at all to do with your character progressing, but instead having combat gear you acquire be what actually builds.

    That soulds like Quake, not sure if its what MMORPG fan wants...

    Furthermore, the levelless system seems less rewarding for the players, the casual player wants to achieve something measurable, and level is just that. So, while there is a standard for levels system, there are exceptions.

    I'm a developer and I thought about the levelless systems, but I failed to design a game around it and make it entertaining.

    I wanted to make a similar claim to the OP, but after a short researches on each claim I always found out that there already were attempts to make it different, and some were even quite successful... I could give a similar example, where there is some kind of standard, but there always are the games that do it differently

    I'd like to see some more claims in this topic though, maybe it will inspire me to make something more unique than most of the games :)

    Furry Quest Online - New Independent MMORPG comming soon! See more at http://www.vaktu.com

  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 713
    Your example was a poor choice because it's been done numerous times and been debated quite a lot. MO, DF and fallen earth for example. A progression only through gear would suit a moba or casual game.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    You can face forward and be upright when you're driving, but there are many ways that you could do it. 

     

    Just because something can be done multiple ways doesn't mean it always should. Destiny is a great example of how gear-based progression can fail horribly. Level-based progression offers a linear progression, while gear-based progression generally has more barriers to progression at later levels than level-based does. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Enbysra

     
    • Further still, another form of progression could have nothing at all to do with your character progressing, but instead having combat gear you acquire be what actually builds.
     
     

    Which is done in all online shooters already

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Just because something can be done multiple ways doesn't mean it always should. Destiny is a great example of how gear-based progression can fail horribly. Level-based progression offers a linear progression, while gear-based progression generally has more barriers to progression at later levels than level-based does. 

    It is about implementation and details.

    Gear progression is great in games like Diablo, PoE, and even wow, but not so much in Destiny.

    And it is silly to assume destiny not looking at different types of design. Case in point, Diablo changes the skill design (no more trees) drastically. PoE change it in another direction.

    WoW put in "farmville" into the game. Tons of examples of many things devs have tried.

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    Over and over and over, we see lots of claims that basically wear the same clothing :

     

    There are many ways to design ____insert feature here____,

    but developers are not willing to.

     

    Instead of making empty claims that deliver nothing, I figured I would begin this thread as an exercise in order to practice making constructive contributions. Here, let me begin :

     

    • A level system is not the only way to deal with character progression.
     
    • Another form of progression could be through a levelless system, such that allows individual skills to be learned and then built up through use.
     
    • Further still, another form of progression could have nothing at all to do with your character progressing, but instead having combat gear you acquire be what actually builds.
     
    Now you try...

    Okay, I'll bite...

     

    Contestant:  "I'll take Game Design for 200." 

     

    Alex:  "There are many ways to design __________, but developers are not willing to."

     

    <queue in background music>

     

    Contestant:  "What is Character Progression?"

     

    Alex:  "I'm sorry, but the answer we are looking for is Innovative Games.  That will cost you 200, dropping your total to zero."

     

     

     

     

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    You can face forward and be upright when you're driving, but there are many ways that you could do it. 

     

    Just because something can be done multiple ways doesn't mean it always should. Destiny is a great example of how gear-based progression can fail horribly. Level-based progression offers a linear progression, while gear-based progression generally has more barriers to progression at later levels than level-based does. 

    and level based games introduce barriers at the start which in a lot of cases stops people even getting to the end.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    And then I wonder how simple definitions and understandings about MMORPGs are completely lost on most people. image I am quite glad I am almost done picking people's heads on this forum. Beyond that, I just need to complete the one thread of actual importance and I can be on my merry way, with the exception of replies there. 

     

     

     

    "thread of actual importance"? In an internet forum? Really?

     

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    *slow clap*

     

    I am glad not one person that replied so far, actually read and-or understood the OP.

    While everyone decided to go into was was good or bad with the example I gave to start this thread, not a SINGLE reply actually went through with the exercise by choosing a feature and showing different possibilities. The fact that the example I gave was even acknowledged as "an example" in one of the replies, just... image

     

     

    And then I wonder how simple definitions and understandings about MMORPGs are completely lost on most people. image I am quite glad I am almost done picking people's heads on this forum. Beyond that, I just need to complete the one thread of actual importance and I can be on my merry way, with the exception of replies there. 

     

     

     

    I don't want to blow your mind when we've still got a whole 2 more days before the weekend, but have you ever considered that if there are plenty of people telling you that you're wrong, or if there is contention on a subject, maybe, JUST MAYBE, you might actually be wrong? I know! Crazy idea! Don't worry, when you get married, you'll get better at admitting you're wrong. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • haplo602haplo602 Member UncommonPosts: 234
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    *slow clap*

     

    I am glad not one person that replied so far, actually read and-or understood the OP.

    While everyone decided to go into was was good or bad with the example I gave to start this thread, not a SINGLE reply actually went through with the exercise by choosing a feature and showing different possibilities. The fact that the example I gave was even acknowledged as "an example" in one of the replies, just... image

     

     

    And then I wonder how simple definitions and understandings about MMORPGs are completely lost on most people. image I am quite glad I am almost done picking people's heads on this forum. Beyond that, I just need to complete the one thread of actual importance and I can be on my merry way, with the exception of replies there. 

     

     

     

    judging by your post count, you should already be aware that that would be the likely outcome of the OP :-)

     

    also there are many different games with many different designs. what you see in the mainstream games is just that - mainstream. have a look into the corners and shadows for some other games.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Pepeq

    Okay, I'll bite...

     Contestant:  "I'll take Game Design for 200."  

    Alex:  "There are many ways to design __________, but developers are not willing to." 

    <queue in background music> 

    Contestant:  "What is Character Progression?" 

    Alex:  "I'm sorry, but the answer we are looking for is Innovative Games.  That will cost you 200, dropping your total to zero." 

    Here's some indie games from 2014.

    If you want something new, play something new.

    If you want the same (and let's be clear, the response "but those aren't MMORPGs!" is wanting the same), you're not going to experience new things.  But if you go this route, don't pretend it's developers' unwillingness to produce innovative games that's responsible for your lack of new things.  It's not.  It's your own fault for choosing sameness over newness. 

    I'm fairly honest with myself that I want a fairly limited amount of innovation.  Because most of those indie games probably aren't very fun to play (however Crypt of hte Necrodancer was fantastic.)  New things don't always work.  Which is why I don't play many indie games, but I also don't complain about a lack of innovation -- because I'm choosing to play the same things like FPSes and MMORPGs and MOBAs.

     

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
     

    I don't want to blow your mind when we've still got a whole 2 more days before the weekend, but have you ever considered that if there are plenty of people telling you that you're wrong, or if there is contention on a subject, maybe, JUST MAYBE, you might actually be wrong? I know! Crazy idea! Don't worry, when you get married, you'll get better at admitting you're wrong. 

    Here is another crazy idea... What if I am right? What if the reason I know I am right is because I have actually spent plenty of time thinking and rethinking such concepts, while still keeping up with the rest of my life? What if, I happened to have a fairly decent comprehension? (um, possibly tested out as in the top 1%-tile) What if the education system in the United States and-or in New Jersey failed, and not only allowed someone to slip through the cracks, but even identified that someone as gifted & talented and then did nothing? Sounds too far fetched? What if that someone not only has spent his life moving toward creating a truly masterworked RPG, suitable for Tabletop originally, and has also reworked it toward an MMORPG? What if in the process of attempting to research "higher dimensions" in order to explain strategies found with that system, that someone also incidentally figured out "quantum gravity" as simply an additional bonus? What if that additional bonus was only possible by way of having figured out a new methodology for physics, such that revises realism and will be applicable toward rewriting every science which is based on "observations & mathematics"?

     

    What if I am right? What if I know that I am right? Should I then cave in to those that could not possibly imagine that such even could be true?

     

    PS. It will take more than that to blow my mind.

    What if you are right? In the business world, being right is secondary to making something happened. It means little if no one agrees with you, or you cannot put whatever you belief into practice.

    and moreoever, there is no "right" or "wrong" in game design .. only if you can entertain people. It is not a science (although marketing it .. is).

     

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 623
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    What if I am right? What if the reason I know I am right is because I have actually spent plenty of time thinking and rethinking such concepts

    What if spending time on thinking about a biased idea doesn't change the bias because your way of thinking about it is biased?

     

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
     

    I don't want to blow your mind when we've still got a whole 2 more days before the weekend, but have you ever considered that if there are plenty of people telling you that you're wrong, or if there is contention on a subject, maybe, JUST MAYBE, you might actually be wrong? I know! Crazy idea! Don't worry, when you get married, you'll get better at admitting you're wrong. 

    Here is another crazy idea... What if I am right? What if the reason I know I am right is because I have actually spent plenty of time thinking and rethinking such concepts, while still keeping up with the rest of my life? What if, I happened to have a fairly decent comprehension? (um, possibly tested out as in the top 1%-tile) What if the education system in the United States and-or in New Jersey failed, and not only allowed someone to slip through the cracks, but even identified that someone as gifted & talented and then did nothing? Sounds too far fetched? What if that someone not only has spent his life moving toward creating a truly masterworked RPG, suitable for Tabletop originally, and has also reworked it toward an MMORPG? What if in the process of attempting to research "higher dimensions" in order to explain strategies found with that system, that someone also incidentally figured out "quantum gravity" as simply an additional bonus? What if that additional bonus was only possible by way of having figured out a new methodology for physics, such that revises realism and will be applicable toward rewriting every science which is based on "observations & mathematics"?

     

    What if I am right? What if I know that I am right? Should I then cave in to those that could not possibly imagine that such even could be true?

     

    PS. It will take more than that to blow my mind.

     

    My son just bought Dying Light for PS4 yesterday. He hadn't even played 10 minutes and he says to me, "I really hope I can remap these controls. Did you know that jump is R1 instead of X?" He's 13. I can't say that you're right or wrong. What I can say is that things are designed with familiarity in mind. Seriously, jump being R1? WTF? Hey! Why don't we put the gas pedal on the left side for left-handed people? Or put the shifter on the left for left-handed people? 

     

    There are actually tons of great ideas out there on ways to design things. The real question is whether or not it's worth the fallout and whether or not it makes sense in the grand scheme of things. People have been trained on level-based progression and it's undoubtedly why we see games follow in that direction. Plus, it's not the developers making that decision. If there was a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow, you better damn well believe that there'd be a race to figure out how to find the end of it. In the end, it's a risk.reward call

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    *slow clap*

    I am glad not one person that replied so far, actually read and-or understood the OP.

    While everyone decided to go into was was good or bad with the example I gave to start this thread, not a SINGLE reply actually went through with the exercise by choosing a feature and showing different possibilities. The fact that the example I gave was even acknowledged as "an example" in one of the replies, just... image

    And then I wonder how simple definitions and understandings about MMORPGs are completely lost on most people. image I am quite glad I am almost done picking people's heads on this forum. Beyond that, I just need to complete the one thread of actual importance and I can be on my merry way, with the exception of replies there. 

    Personally I could not find a useful way to respond to the original post.  I don't usually think in the format "there are many ways to design _____ but developers are not willing to".  If I try I supposed I could come up with a few, but then you're asking for statements about how to design these things when how isn't the issue, _why_ is.  This goes along with the fact that it's not generally developers or designers who are unwilling to try new things, it's publishers and investors who are unwilling to try unprofitable things.  And there's no answer to that because it's just how capitalism works (or rather fails to work).

    Let me simplify the statement a bit to give some examples:

    Game companies are unwilling to produce _____.

    Game companies are unwilling to produce good interactive story RPGs.  (Story as a whole is the lowest-budgeted content type in games and seems to be uninteresting as a sales point to most consumers.)

    Game companies are unwilling to produce games aimed at an audience of adult women.  (The market segment with the lowest per capita spending on games.)

    Or we could do:

    Game companies seem unable to produce ______.

    Game companies seem unable to produce a functional MMO adventure game (see the failure of Myst Online, which was fine as an adventure game, it just didn't _work_ as an MMO).

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Just because something can be done multiple ways doesn't mean it always should. Destiny is a great example of how gear-based progression can fail horribly. Level-based progression offers a linear progression, while gear-based progression generally has more barriers to progression at later levels than level-based does. 

    It is about implementation and details.

    Gear progression is great in games like Diablo, PoE, and even wow, but not so much in Destiny.

    And it is silly to assume destiny not looking at different types of design. Case in point, Diablo changes the skill design (no more trees) drastically. PoE change it in another direction.

    WoW put in "farmville" into the game. Tons of examples of many things devs have tried.

     

    Apparently your fine examples don't count for some reason.   I think the OP is just trying to be clever about forcing a specific way of doing something.  AKA- no levels.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    To me, progression is progression.  I don't mind the level system at all.  I think the horizontal level system being advertised as of late is something of a sham.  In the end, a game is either going to lack progression because they are focusing on something else (pvp usually), or there is actually a level system in the form of skill levels or equipment tiers, in which case, its still a level system just without an overall player level.

    The truth about horizontal progression is that its still a level system almost identical to a traditional level system.  Equipment tiers will determine what content you will be able to do in the same way being level 50 will determine what content you can do.  Did Bilbo get stronger or learn new abilities on his journey to the Lonely Mountain?  No, but he did acquire Sting, some nifty mithril armor and a ring of invisibility.  If for some reason you are actually able to do all the same content with entry level gear as someone that has good gear, the game simply lacks progression and will end up lacking a sense of accomplishment.

    I'm a fan of all types of progression.  I think there should be as much journey in a game as possible.  Ideally more than any normal person could accomplish.  Without something to work towards, games feel meaningless.  The difference between 1 and max should be noticeable, and the difference between a fresh max lvl player and a well geared one should be noticeable.  There should therefore be Diagonal progression where you go up in levels, but also forward as your equipment becomes more powerful.

    In the end, we generally represent this journey with numbers.  You can also have enchantment, weapons and armor that may increase in power when used or over time.  Perhaps they get stronger from defeating certain types of enemies.  Armor of darkness grows when killing players or npcs of good alignment.  Maybe they grow by exploring certain places, the more dangerous the place, the more growth the item receives. 

    Pantheon Rise of the Fallen has another type of progression they are introducing in their Achievement system.  Every player will have different tasks they must accomplish if they want to be able to continue gaining traditional experience.  I think the idea is for a player to learn certain things about their class and the world around them via exploration before they can continue gaining traditional experience.  I look at it as a barrier not unlike entry level courses in school.  To understand calculus, you have to understand the rudiments: addition, subtraction, multiplication > algebra.  I think it stands to be a fresh and interesting approach to progression.

    In the end, I dont think finding new methods of progression is necessary.  Its not the way we progress as much as a lack of meaningful progression that is responsible for the current staleness in the mmorpg genre.


  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847

    Yes OP i like your ideas except perhaps one.I prefer a RP game to be all about your player.I am fine with gear growing as long as your player is somehow tied into that.

    I would like to see us remove the whole horizontal progression ideas altogether.Example why do i need to move from level 1> level 5 to find a better weapon?Why can't i have that same level 1 weapon and spend my time looking for ways to upgrade it and add features to it.Why do i actually have to fight,to advance?Now i realize you can't allow simple advancement that would be lame and cheesy however you could simply have add-ons all over the zones waiting to be discovered.

    Example a level 1 player might have to find some add-ons in a level 50 zone,the risk is running around there trying to survive.Then instead of losing aggro just by running,those  mobs don't forget and will chase you forever until a zone line or a guard house.It allows players to advance and upgrade while still having risk and challenge.

     

    Another area every developer is failing is spells/abilities.It seems they always want to limit them so much it doesn't matter what you do,your level 5 you can only fight level 5.I would prefer to see an elaborate set of skills and spells that allow players to almost fight anything at any level.You would still have some limitations on accuracy and such but ti can be done.

    An example is a level 5 player fighting a level 30 Dragon.Normally he cannot even do 1 damage and nothing else he does works,so he is locked into his level 5 fights,it makes for REAL boring game play.Now if you create ARC formula's you have that slim chance of still defeating a level 30 Dragon as a level 5 player.Now of course a level 5 would have VERY few abilities to actually win the fight but i am just saying keep it real and possible.

    When i played FFXI learned so many ideas for gaming  it was crazy ,all because they already had a ton of cool ideas in the game.Examples of spells and abilities that tie into what i was just saying ....

    1Paralyze  This effect would have a duration,obviously sticking longer on a more apt level creature.It has the ability to sort of Paralyze a creature from acting,meaning that level 30 Dragon might wiff on his 1 shot spell,he might also clam up chasing you giving you room to kite.

    2 Gravity : A spell that makes a creature move slowly.So that level 5 player could again Kite that almighty Dragon allowing him to stay out of that 1 swipe DEAD.It also allows time to recast any accuracy or damage or enfeeble buffs.

    3 Sleep :We all know what Sleep does,why shouldn't a level 5 be able to sleep a level 30 Dragon?The risk is still there,SLEEP would not last long and your damage would be low and still awake him.

    This is just 3 examples there are MANY more,then you put these powerful abilities on FAIR timers so not to be abused.

    You also NEED ARC formulas meaning the further the level spread the less likely to stick and determines how long it sticks.

    However what i  DON'T like is when games totally limit any ability to test yourself and your skills.They would automate that your spells do not hit or stick ever because of the level gap,to me that is lazy game design and also unrealistic.

    BTW  i am still waiting for ONE game to give us an ECO system within the games.That would have everything evolve and die off and make for a very realistic environment.Examples Lions attacking creatures in game that you might expect,allowing you to also join in and perhaps kill that Lion when he is weakened.Or certain resources are not around in Winter months others  in Summer months.

    One last one NIGHT and DAY cycles:I am not alone i have heard others before mention having certain creatures only as night time dwellers and being more dangerous at night.Some  might perhaps be more deadly during the day.Or in case of FFXI Iffrit being tougher more dangerous on Firesday and weaker on Watersday or any idea like that involving elemental properties.

     

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997

    Camelot Unchained has a unique system for each and every item you listed.  It takes an indie developer to have the freedom to do such things when they design a game from the ground up.

     

    The main issue with how stale mmo development has become is largely because developers copy mmos to make mmos. The original mmorpgs that garnered so much love were games with roots grown from RPG (pnp and computers) and muds. MJ over at CU specifically has said they are drawing their inspirations from pnp rpg game play and tossing out many traditional mmo systems. IMO a mmo should always be about bringing the rpg experience to a larger audience. This has NOT been the case for recent mmos who draw their players directly from other mmos. The conceptual difference is massive and understood by anyone who plays pnp or single player rpgs. RPGs are typically complex and highly tactical at times with many different systems available offering different styles of play. Mmos continue to be dumbed down and cloned after each other.

     

    A few indie mmos are in the works that have such freedom. We simply have to wait and see the results.

    You stay sassy!

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by vaktu.com

    That soulds like Quake, not sure if its what MMORPG fan wants...

    The part you quoted was a guy suggesting a gear-centric progression system.  Does that really sound more like Quake to you than WOW?

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Enbysra

    This thread has NOTHING to do with LEVELS.

     

    This thread has NOTHING to do with LEVELLESS.

     

    This thread has NOTHING to do with an ALTERNATIVE PROGRESSION THROUGH GEARS.

     

    This thread DOES have to do with CLAIMS that people make all over this forum, and every other forum dealing with MMORPGs, that there is always some other way of doing something, LOTS of other ways, or they do not like this or that.

    And yet... Give not a single iota of any sort of vague idea even, in order to start building a solid concept to move such features towards.

    See now?

    Or are we really going to continue on the "level-levelless-gear progression" harping that was merely a single example

    What your asking is pretty broad.  To discuss something you have to elaborate on what IT is.  Making a vague reference to something people say about MMOs in general is not conducive to a good discussion.  You probably want to take 10 of the things that players claim aren't being done properly and create 10 different threads.  Otherwise this thread will end up being 10,000 pages long (maybe thats what you wanted?) or it will not continue at all because people won't have a specific topic to discuss.


  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Definitely agree that people often criticize the lack of variety to certain aspects of game design, but not sure what the point of the thread ends up being?

    Is the intent to go "yeah, like what?" and force those players to describe at least one alternate idea, which we then poke design holes in so that they realize that many of those alternative systems have serious faults compared to the ones which get used a lot?  Or is the intent that after we eliminate the 90-95% of those ideas which are significantly flawed, we'll end up with the best 5-10% of ideas which represent system that would actually work?

    There are very few topics where the OP question is even applicable.  If we use progression systems as an example, a lot of variety does exist. 

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

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