EVE Online's P2W Reduction Method... (An example other companies should learn from)...

ArtificeVenatus

Some of you may already know about the thread I posted in the Developers Corner, P2W Reduction Methods (For the F2P Business Model). Many argued against this idea, even saying that "such ideas would be bad for business," but EVE Online just proved otherwise. 

 

I recognized this in an ongoing discussion in General Discussion, "How do you define P2W?". The question was raised of "What games are P2W?" with reference to P2W having been accepted as "Buying an extra Queen in Chess". In my answers spewed forth EVE Online as being P2W, and I wrote...

 

EVE -- P2W. You CAN use PLEX (directly bought with REAL MONEY) and in BULK even (not that that matters), and sell PLEX to other players. Again to amass great amounts of in-game wealth in order to BUY the best ships, ship fixxings (weaponry, shielding, and other add ons), and character implants, along with other advantageous goods. Again, limited only by YOUR OWN wallet. (This seems to be a great game still, but I have only recently begun to get into this game, so others' opinions would certainly carry more weight in that particular respect... but I still would recommend this game to anyone, for more reasons than this post should get into lengthwise).

 

After having finished my entire reply at that point, apparently the systems involved in EVE's P2W started being subconsciously analyzed by me... To then lead to a startling discovery about EVE Online that was already present. And so I further added to my reply...

 

** [EDIT / ADD] : I should note with respect to P2W in EVE... You would need to build up the proper skills in order to be able to actually use any of these bought advantages... So come to think of it... EVE is a GREAT example of an MMORPG ALREADY USING PAY TO WIN REDUCTION METHODS... not in F2P (although PLEX could be used to argue to that end), but given a Cash Shop or Cash Shop Item that is tradeable. 

[mod edit]

 

Now of course, to me at least, this is exciting. A concept I was, still am, and still will be looking over, in order to hopefully someday implement into my own MMORPG, already exists. EVE Online is already using this P2W Reduction Methods implementation, and it is obviously NOT bad for business. It may even be great for business. Personally I had to share this for 2 reasons, both toward my own agenda's end, and toward the fact that this is great that EVE Online beat me to it (and I have not yet researched into how long).

 

Given the discovery of EVE Online's P2W Reduction Method,

it is an example other companies should learn from...

vadio123

well i see valid points here

Decimuss

When you need "P2W Reduction methods" in the first place, something has gone wrong...

P2W simply shouldn't exist in a game, period.

BarakIII

As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

ArtificeVenatus

Originally posted by Decimuss

When you need "P2W Reduction methods" in the first place, something has gone wrong...

P2W simply shouldn't exist in a game, period.

Actually, if you truly understand the complex interweaving systems of an MMORPG, you would see that "Pay to Win" in and of itself is actually healthier*** to the longevity of any MMORPG than to not have it.

[EDIT / ADD] *** And I need to add, by "healthier", I do not mean as far as financial profits to a game company (although it too is the case in this respect, if you look at long term profiting). By "healthier" I mean from the players' perspectives, given the integrity of the game itself in terms of the in-game world's liveliness. In other words, it makes for a better game for the greatest majority of players. This "majority" needs no proof as being a fact, as said proof can be recognized in the reality of the financial standing of the majority of any population. This boils down to a few rich, and a whole lot of average if not broke as **** people. To attempt to argue that particular point, would be... oh *sigh*

It has nothing to do with "something has gone wrong", saying it is implemented correctly. Here is why...

 

What is "Pay to Win"?

Simply put, it is an advantage that players can achieve by way of real life money.

 

The issue with this is not that it would exist within an MMORPG, and here is why (if P2W does not exist)...

 

• The advantage of outright Skill is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will be able to accomplish feats with a chosen playstyle, that no amount of time would allow most other players to accomplish).

• The advantage of outright more Time to play is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (with the exception of such as games in China, possibly throughout Asia, whereas they place time restrictions on power and-or drops by law).

• The advantage of real Social skills is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will have an easier time of finding and-or organizing a simple group, but not necessarily raids).

• The advantage of Coordinating many players (real leadership and-or managing skills) is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (and these in particular, often are to the advantage of all other groups of players, including those that lack any advantages themselves).

 

And there may even be more I have not gotten around to identifying.

The issue with "Pay to Win" is specifically due to it's NOT being "Restricted P2W." 

Thus, "Unrestricted P2W" is what all but the developers (making money off of Unrestricted P2W) and those with money to be identified as gaining "Unrestricted P2W Advantages", actually have a real issue with. And rightfully so.

 

Thus, "Restricted P2W" allows another group of advantaged players into an MMORPG that otherwise would not exist (given we treat Black Market Transactions and Dealings as illegal and not part of this conversation, as logically, such is irrelevant).

 

Basically, this realization that EVE Online does in fact have a P2W Reduction Method, I have to tip my hat and give CCP mad props for this. Whereas the subject could be further argued with respect to "degree with which EVE has implemented a P2W Reduction Method well or not", at least it appears they are truly moving in the right direction.

 

Now do realize, I absolutely hate "Unrestricted P2W" myself.

I happen to recognize however, that it is not "P2W" in and of itself that is the issue.

Most things, P2W included, come down to proper implementations. Further to this point, is "proper implementation" simply (although by no means a simple task to do so) means to "balance the advantaged players". Thus striking a balance of player advantaged groups of Money VS Time VS Skill VS Social VS Coordinating, etc etc. 

 

 

Without my own further playing out EVE to a far more in depth or higher point, based on what I can see by way of browsing the region market and understanding how the skill system is structured verse the ships and add-ons, it appears as if EVE has dead on nailed how to implement both P2W and it's Reduction Method properly.

Originally posted by BarakIII
As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

Hmm... Any official and-or EVE Vet explanations as to how PLEX was intended to battle the isk seller problem? 

 

Talonsin

I think Eve did it the right way.  It doesnt matter how much you spend, if you dont have the skill points, you cant use the best stuff.  As a poor use of this method, Archeage allows people to buy APEX but there is nothing stopping you from using it for P2W.  You level to Max in 2 to 3 days and then buy APEX to finance having the best weapons and armor.  In three days you can rule in PvP in Archeage.

ArtificeVenatus

Originally posted by Talonsin
I think Eve did it the right way.  It doesnt matter how much you spend, if you dont have the skill points, you cant use the best stuff.  As a poor use of this method, Archeage allows people to buy APEX but there is nothing stopping you from using it for P2W.  You level to Max in 2 to 3 days and then buy APEX to finance having the best weapons and armor.  In three days you can rule in PvP in Archeage.

They absolutely did.

Decimuss

Originally posted by Enbysra

Originally posted by Decimuss

When you need "P2W Reduction methods" in the first place, something has gone wrong...

P2W simply shouldn't exist in a game, period.

Actually, if you truly understand the complex interweaving systems of an MMORPG, you would see that "Pay to Win" in and of itself is actually healthier*** to the longevity of any MMORPG than to not have it.

[EDIT / ADD] *** And I need to add, by "healthier", I do not mean as far as financial profits to a game company (although it too is the case in this respect, if you look at long term profiting). By "healthier" I mean from the players' perspectives, given the integrity of the game itself in terms of the in-game world's liveliness. In other words, it makes for a better game for the greatest majority of players. This "majority" needs no proof as being a fact, as said proof can be recognized in the reality of the financial standing of the majority of any population. This boils down to a few rich, and a whole lot of average if not broke as **** people. To attempt to argue that particular point, would be... oh *sigh*

It has nothing to do with "something has gone wrong", saying it is implemented correctly. Here is why...

 

What is "Pay to Win"?

Simply put, it is an advantage that players can achieve by way of real life money.

 

The issue with this is not that it would exist within an MMORPG, and here is why (if P2W does not exist)...

 

• The advantage of outright Skill is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will be able to accomplish feats with a chosen playstyle, that no amount of time would allow most other players to accomplish).

• The advantage of outright more Time to play is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (with the exception of such as games in China, possibly throughout Asia, whereas they place time restrictions on power and-or drops by law).

• The advantage of real Social skills is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will have an easier time of finding and-or organizing a simple group, but not necessarily raids).

• The advantage of Coordinating many players (real leadership and-or managing skills) is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (and these in particular, often are to the advantage of all other groups of players, including those that lack any advantages themselves).

 

And there may even be more I have not gotten around to identifying.

The issue with "Pay to Win" is specifically due to it's NOT being "Restricted P2W." 

Thus, "Unrestricted P2W" is what all but the developers (making money off of Unrestricted P2W) and those with money to be identified as gaining "Unrestricted P2W Advantages", actually have a real issue with. And rightfully so.

 

Thus, "Restricted P2W" allows another group of advantaged players into an MMORPG that otherwise would not exist (given we treat Black Market Transactions and Dealings as illegal and not part of this conversation, as logically, such is irrelevant).

 

Basically, this realization that EVE Online does in fact have a P2W Reduction Method, I have to tip my hat and give CCP mad props for this. Whereas the subject could be further argued with respect to "degree with which EVE has implemented a P2W Reduction Method well or not", at least it appears they are truly moving in the right direction.

 

Now do realize, I absolutely hate "Unrestricted P2W" myself.

I happen to recognize however, that it is not "P2W" in and of itself that is the issue.

Most things, P2W included, come down to proper implementations. Further to this point, is "proper implementation" simply (although by no means a simple task to do so) means to "balance the advantaged players". Thus striking a balance of player advantaged groups of Money VS Time VS Skill VS Social VS Coordinating, etc etc. 

 

 

Without my own further playing out EVE to a far more in depth or higher point, based on what I can see by way of browsing the region market and understanding how the skill system is structured verse the ships and add-ons, it appears as if EVE has dead on nailed how to implement both P2W and it's Reduction Method properly.

Originally posted by BarakIII
As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

Hmm... Any official and-or EVE Vet explanations as to how PLEX was intended to battle the isk seller problem? 

 

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

 

Money should never be a determining factor in any competitive environment, because it is not distributed equally.

The only reason P2W even exists is corporate greed, and people defending that greed.

 

I'd encourage you to read the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fairplay/the-essence-of-fair-play#.VMbgE_6sXIc

 

If you look at sports like football, hockey, tennis, you name it; money is not a factor in how good someone is. Never has been, never will be.

For closer example, look at eSports. You cannot buy power in those games, because fair rules of competition apply.

 

 

And how does nickel & diming customers or fooling them into buying P2W items make for a healthier game? I'm starting to think this is a troll post. If so, you went through awful lot of effort & shiny colours to make it.

If someone can't devote time, or doesn't have enough skill to play a competitively, then he should just play it for fun and entertainment. Just like in any other aspect of life.

ArtificeVenatus

Originally posted by Decimuss

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. 

Obviously, you do have the right to disagree, however, your disagreement is on the basis of how "Pay to Win" is implemented and even on the basis of how "Free to Play" is used to exploit customers. If you understand the direction of the MMORPG industry, you will recognize that "Free to Play" is the future business model. The only companies that will be able to use a "Subscription Only" business model are those companies with a following already, or that are producing from a titled series that also already has a following. This leaves some very major issues involving "Pay to Win" and how to approach and-or implement it properly, such that still allows truly fair competition.

Money should never be a determining factor in any competitive environment, because it is not distributed equally.

The only reason P2W even exists is corporate greed, and people defending that greed.

Initially speaking, the reason behind why P2W (also F2P) was brought into the MMORPG industry, was exactly that... greed of companies that saw the ability to milk their customers hand over fist. However, you are only basing your opinion of it from the perspective of not seeing how P2W (also F2P) can in fact be implemented, AND whereas money would still not be a determining factor in any competitive environment... Because it does not need to be distributed equally, if these features are implemented properly. MMORPGs in particular have a great many systems at work, and can be manipulated through design to have exactly what outcomes you want... Including exactly what you want.

 I'd encourage you to read the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fairplay/the-essence-of-fair-play#.VMbgE_6sXIc

I do not even need to look at those to understand where you are coming from, or what "Pay to Win Reduction Methods" done properly can in fact accomplish if implemented properly. 

If you look at sports like football, hockey, tennis, you name it; money is not a factor in how good someone is. Never has been, never will be.

For closer example, look at eSports. You cannot buy power in those games, because fair rules of competition apply. 

Guess what? You can have players pay for things they want, have P2W if implemented correctly, and still have completely fair competition. Money would still not be a factor in said competitions. Just because you have not see it, or just because no one has yet done it, does not mean it is not possible. The world would not even be worth living in if everything truly has been done already. Luckily, there is still plenty left that has not been done. 

 And how does nickel & diming customers or fooling them into buying P2W items make for a healthier game? I'm starting to think this is a troll post. If so, you went through awful lot of effort & shiny colours to make it.

If someone can't devote time, or doesn't have enough skill to play a competitively, then he should just play it for fun and entertainment. Just like in any other aspect of life.

Again, you are allowing your bias to get the best of you, only based on your personal experiences up till now. "Nickel & Diming" customers has nothing whatsoever to do with F2P and-or P2W done correctly. Absolutely nothing. Unfortunately, if you have already read through the Pay to Win Reduction Methods post I linked in the OP and have already read through everything I have stated here, and can still not see what is being said... Then we must come to terms of agreeing to disagree.

Being I personally spent 14 years of my life just collecting information on strategies, and another 7 years of my life to truly establish the framework of my own Tabletop RPG / MMORPG System, I can assure you I am all about maintaining the INTEGRITY of that system at any cost. I sure as hell would not allow something as vile as Unrestricted P2W to destroy that. I have literally thought of all the ins and outs of how that system and it's systems interweave and work... literally extending into concepts that further interweave into monetization models and dealing with black market entities... So "went through an awful lot of effort" is an understatement you truly have no concept of... I can not make my position any clearer than that.

Have a nice day.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Decimuss

Originally posted by Enbysra

Originally posted by Decimuss

When you need "P2W Reduction methods" in the first place, something has gone wrong...

P2W simply shouldn't exist in a game, period.

Actually, if you truly understand the complex interweaving systems of an MMORPG, you would see that "Pay to Win" in and of itself is actually healthier*** to the longevity of any MMORPG than to not have it.

[EDIT / ADD] *** And I need to add, by "healthier", I do not mean as far as financial profits to a game company (although it too is the case in this respect, if you look at long term profiting). By "healthier" I mean from the players' perspectives, given the integrity of the game itself in terms of the in-game world's liveliness. In other words, it makes for a better game for the greatest majority of players. This "majority" needs no proof as being a fact, as said proof can be recognized in the reality of the financial standing of the majority of any population. This boils down to a few rich, and a whole lot of average if not broke as **** people. To attempt to argue that particular point, would be... oh *sigh*

It has nothing to do with "something has gone wrong", saying it is implemented correctly. Here is why...

 

What is "Pay to Win"?

Simply put, it is an advantage that players can achieve by way of real life money.

 

The issue with this is not that it would exist within an MMORPG, and here is why (if P2W does not exist)...

 

• The advantage of outright Skill is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will be able to accomplish feats with a chosen playstyle, that no amount of time would allow most other players to accomplish).

• The advantage of outright more Time to play is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (with the exception of such as games in China, possibly throughout Asia, whereas they place time restrictions on power and-or drops by law).

• The advantage of real Social skills is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will have an easier time of finding and-or organizing a simple group, but not necessarily raids).

• The advantage of Coordinating many players (real leadership and-or managing skills) is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (and these in particular, often are to the advantage of all other groups of players, including those that lack any advantages themselves).

 

And there may even be more I have not gotten around to identifying.

The issue with "Pay to Win" is specifically due to it's NOT being "Restricted P2W." 

Thus, "Unrestricted P2W" is what all but the developers (making money off of Unrestricted P2W) and those with money to be identified as gaining "Unrestricted P2W Advantages", actually have a real issue with. And rightfully so.

 

Thus, "Restricted P2W" allows another group of advantaged players into an MMORPG that otherwise would not exist (given we treat Black Market Transactions and Dealings as illegal and not part of this conversation, as logically, such is irrelevant).

 

Basically, this realization that EVE Online does in fact have a P2W Reduction Method, I have to tip my hat and give CCP mad props for this. Whereas the subject could be further argued with respect to "degree with which EVE has implemented a P2W Reduction Method well or not", at least it appears they are truly moving in the right direction.

 

Now do realize, I absolutely hate "Unrestricted P2W" myself.

I happen to recognize however, that it is not "P2W" in and of itself that is the issue.

Most things, P2W included, come down to proper implementations. Further to this point, is "proper implementation" simply (although by no means a simple task to do so) means to "balance the advantaged players". Thus striking a balance of player advantaged groups of Money VS Time VS Skill VS Social VS Coordinating, etc etc. 

 

 

Without my own further playing out EVE to a far more in depth or higher point, based on what I can see by way of browsing the region market and understanding how the skill system is structured verse the ships and add-ons, it appears as if EVE has dead on nailed how to implement both P2W and it's Reduction Method properly.

Originally posted by BarakIII
As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

Hmm... Any official and-or EVE Vet explanations as to how PLEX was intended to battle the isk seller problem? 

 

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

 

Money should never be a determining factor in any competitive environment, because it is not distributed equally.

The only reason P2W even exists is corporate greed, and people defending that greed.

 

I'd encourage you to read the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fairplay/the-essence-of-fair-play#.VMbgE_6sXIc

 

If you look at sports like football, hockey, tennis, you name it; money is not a factor in how good someone is. Never has been, never will be.

For closer example, look at eSports. You cannot buy power in those games, because fair rules of competition apply.

 

 

And how does nickel & diming customers or fooling them into buying P2W items make for a healthier game? I'm starting to think this is a troll post. If so, you went through awful lot of effort & shiny colours to make it.

If someone can't devote time, or doesn't have enough skill to play a competitively, then he should just play it for fun and entertainment. Just like in any other aspect of life.

Wait, what?  Do you understand how professional sports work?  Money buys you the best players, and it definitely helps you win.

Even in college, schools that spend the most on scholarships and what not win, and win often.  You think someone becomes a tennis champion with out sinking a ton of money in expensive tennis schools for years and years? (like 50K a year from the time you are 6 years old)

Money rules competitive sports, always has, always will.

 

Howbadisbad

I think what helps EVE the most with it's PLEX system not being completely P2W is the fact that no items are generated into the game, and the loot based PVP nature of the game. Even if you buy the best ship witht he best character and all that jazz, someone will track you down, gank/hotdrop a hundred ships on you, and steal all your shit for flying a bling fit ship. You actually have to risk anything you buy with money in EVE, which is the biggest difference from other MMOs.

Decimuss

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Decimuss

Originally posted by Enbysra

Originally posted by Decimuss

When you need "P2W Reduction methods" in the first place, something has gone wrong...

P2W simply shouldn't exist in a game, period.

Actually, if you truly understand the complex interweaving systems of an MMORPG, you would see that "Pay to Win" in and of itself is actually healthier*** to the longevity of any MMORPG than to not have it.

[EDIT / ADD] *** And I need to add, by "healthier", I do not mean as far as financial profits to a game company (although it too is the case in this respect, if you look at long term profiting). By "healthier" I mean from the players' perspectives, given the integrity of the game itself in terms of the in-game world's liveliness. In other words, it makes for a better game for the greatest majority of players. This "majority" needs no proof as being a fact, as said proof can be recognized in the reality of the financial standing of the majority of any population. This boils down to a few rich, and a whole lot of average if not broke as **** people. To attempt to argue that particular point, would be... oh *sigh*

It has nothing to do with "something has gone wrong", saying it is implemented correctly. Here is why...

 

What is "Pay to Win"?

Simply put, it is an advantage that players can achieve by way of real life money.

 

The issue with this is not that it would exist within an MMORPG, and here is why (if P2W does not exist)...

 

• The advantage of outright Skill is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will be able to accomplish feats with a chosen playstyle, that no amount of time would allow most other players to accomplish).

• The advantage of outright more Time to play is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (with the exception of such as games in China, possibly throughout Asia, whereas they place time restrictions on power and-or drops by law).

• The advantage of real Social skills is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (these in particular will have an easier time of finding and-or organizing a simple group, but not necessarily raids).

• The advantage of Coordinating many players (real leadership and-or managing skills) is to one group of advantaged players that will always exist (and these in particular, often are to the advantage of all other groups of players, including those that lack any advantages themselves).

 

And there may even be more I have not gotten around to identifying.

The issue with "Pay to Win" is specifically due to it's NOT being "Restricted P2W." 

Thus, "Unrestricted P2W" is what all but the developers (making money off of Unrestricted P2W) and those with money to be identified as gaining "Unrestricted P2W Advantages", actually have a real issue with. And rightfully so.

 

Thus, "Restricted P2W" allows another group of advantaged players into an MMORPG that otherwise would not exist (given we treat Black Market Transactions and Dealings as illegal and not part of this conversation, as logically, such is irrelevant).

 

Basically, this realization that EVE Online does in fact have a P2W Reduction Method, I have to tip my hat and give CCP mad props for this. Whereas the subject could be further argued with respect to "degree with which EVE has implemented a P2W Reduction Method well or not", at least it appears they are truly moving in the right direction.

 

Now do realize, I absolutely hate "Unrestricted P2W" myself.

I happen to recognize however, that it is not "P2W" in and of itself that is the issue.

Most things, P2W included, come down to proper implementations. Further to this point, is "proper implementation" simply (although by no means a simple task to do so) means to "balance the advantaged players". Thus striking a balance of player advantaged groups of Money VS Time VS Skill VS Social VS Coordinating, etc etc. 

 

 

Without my own further playing out EVE to a far more in depth or higher point, based on what I can see by way of browsing the region market and understanding how the skill system is structured verse the ships and add-ons, it appears as if EVE has dead on nailed how to implement both P2W and it's Reduction Method properly.

Originally posted by BarakIII
As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

Hmm... Any official and-or EVE Vet explanations as to how PLEX was intended to battle the isk seller problem? 

 

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

 

Money should never be a determining factor in any competitive environment, because it is not distributed equally.

The only reason P2W even exists is corporate greed, and people defending that greed.

 

I'd encourage you to read the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fairplay/the-essence-of-fair-play#.VMbgE_6sXIc

 

If you look at sports like football, hockey, tennis, you name it; money is not a factor in how good someone is. Never has been, never will be.

For closer example, look at eSports. You cannot buy power in those games, because fair rules of competition apply.

 

 

And how does nickel & diming customers or fooling them into buying P2W items make for a healthier game? I'm starting to think this is a troll post. If so, you went through awful lot of effort & shiny colours to make it.

If someone can't devote time, or doesn't have enough skill to play a competitively, then he should just play it for fun and entertainment. Just like in any other aspect of life.

Wait, what?  Do you understand how professional sports work?  Money buys you the best players, and it definitely helps you win.

Even in college, schools that spend the most on scholarships and what not win, and win often.  You think someone becomes a tennis champion with out sinking a ton of money in expensive tennis schools for years and years? (like 50K a year from the time you are 6 years old)

Money rules competitive sports, always has, always will.

 

I'm talking about individual players here, not teams.

Obviously a football team is better with good players, but a certain player cannot pay money to suddenly become more efficient or better. It just doesn't happen.

In fact, those skilled players are actually paid money, instead of other way around (although there are things like player licences, but those are the same for everyone).

 

Closest example to P2W in professional sports would be match fixing, which is not a very good thing to have (and punishable if found out).

You simply cannot pay money to achieve any kind of an advantage, it goes against the basic rules of fair competition. Read the links I provided.

Superman0X

Originally posted by Decimuss

 

I'm talking about individual players here, not teams.

Obviously a football team is better with good players, but a certain player cannot pay money to suddenly become more efficient or better. It just doesn't happen.

In fact, those skilled players are actually paid money, instead of other way around (although there are things like player licences, but those are the same for everyone).

 

Closest example to P2W in professional sports would be match fixing, which is not a very good thing to have (and punishable if found out).

You simply cannot pay money to achieve any kind of an advantage, it goes against the basic rules of fair competition. Read the links I provided.

As pointed out, individual players are not spending money on professional sports, the (individual) teams do. This means that whomever spends the most, wins more often....

ArtificeVenatus

Originally posted by Decimuss 

I'm talking about individual players here, not teams.

Obviously a football team is better with good players, but a certain player cannot pay money to suddenly become more efficient or better. It just doesn't happen.

In fact, those skilled players are actually paid money, instead of other way around (although there are things like player licences, but those are the same for everyone).

 

Closest example to P2W in professional sports would be match fixing, which is not a very good thing to have (and punishable if found out).

You simply cannot pay money to achieve any kind of an advantage, it goes against the basic rules of fair competition. Read the links I provided.

Fact 1. Free to Play as a business model is mandatory (unless you are a company or provide a title with a following).

Fact 2. YOU are unknown in the MMORPG Industry (we will assume you do have all of the costs of the $40-200 million you need to complete your MMORPG).

Your Homework : Don't go bankrupt and have to close your MMORPG down all together. What are you doing? And the answer has nothing to do with necessary evils either.

DarLorkar

Originally posted by Enbysra

Some of you may already know about the thread I posted in the Developers Corner, P2W Reduction Methods (For the F2P Business Model). Many argued against this idea, even saying that "such ideas would be bad for business," but EVE Online just proved otherwise. 

 

I recognized this in an ongoing discussion in General Discussion, "How do you define P2W?". The question was raised of "What games are P2W?" with reference to P2W having been accepted as "Buying an extra Queen in Chess". In my answers spewed forth EVE Online as being P2W, and I wrote...

 

EVE -- P2W. You CAN use PLEX (directly bought with REAL MONEY) and in BULK even (not that that matters), and sell PLEX to other players. Again to amass great amounts of in-game wealth in order to BUY the best ships, ship fixxings (weaponry, shielding, and other add ons), and character implants, along with other advantageous goods. Again, limited only by YOUR OWN wallet. (This seems to be a great game still, but I have only recently begun to get into this game, so others' opinions would certainly carry more weight in that particular respect... but I still would recommend this game to anyone, for more reasons than this post should get into lengthwise).

 

After having finished my entire reply at that point, apparently the systems involved in EVE's P2W started being subconsciously analyzed by me... To then lead to a startling discovery about EVE Online that was already present. And so I further added to my reply...

 

** [EDIT / ADD] : I should note with respect to P2W in EVE... You would need to build up the proper skills in order to be able to actually use any of these bought advantages... So come to think of it... EVE is a GREAT example of an MMORPG ALREADY USING PAY TO WIN REDUCTION METHODS... not in F2P (although PLEX could be used to argue to that end), but given a Cash Shop or Cash Shop Item that is tradeable. 

So everyone saying that "Pay to Win Reduction Methods" are bad for business... STUFF IT. 

 

Now of course, to me at least, this is exciting. A concept I was, still am, and still will be looking over, in order to hopefully someday implement into my own MMORPG, already exists. EVE Online is already using this P2W Reduction Methods implementation, and it is obviously NOT bad for business. It may even be great for business. Personally I had to share this for 2 reasons, both toward my own agenda's end, and toward the fact that this is great that EVE Online beat me to it (and I have not yet researched into how long).

 

Given the discovery of EVE Online's P2W Reduction Method,

it is an example other companies should learn from...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6369&find=unread

 

I guess you are not aware that you can also buy characters? Including all the skills they have??? 

So about  that stuff it comment....

Bladestrom

In eve new players subsidise old players, new players have to pay cash because they done have the in game skills or income to have free gameplay. Then there's the advantage gained my people buying and playing multiple accounts at the same time. With regards to accounts ita not pay to win, it's pay or be weaker.

fivoroth

Just reading this thread and trying to see the logic makes my head hurt. Maybe it's all the colours? The OP's posts are like a rainbow ;D

Phry

Originally posted by Howbadisbad

I think what helps EVE the most with it's PLEX system not being completely P2W is the fact that no items are generated into the game, and the loot based PVP nature of the game. Even if you buy the best ship witht he best character and all that jazz, someone will track you down, gank/hotdrop a hundred ships on you, and steal all your shit for flying a bling fit ship. You actually have to risk anything you buy with money in EVE, which is the biggest difference from other MMOs.

 

One of the main problems with the whole P2W argument, is that there is no 'best ship' in the game, sure, when it comes to mission running, depending on your play style, some ships are more suitable than others, likewise in mining, although technically a Hulk is the best mining ship, it has limitations, depending on circumstances ie, location and whether your solo or not, the best mining ship might be a Mackinaw or a Skiff. Its the same with ship fittings, the mods you fit are very much constrained by role, you cannot fit a ship to fit all contingencies, which makes PVP outcomes extremely variable, because there is no winning combinations or ships that will win in combat, and the biggest ships have the most vulnerabilities, even though they are often the most expensive. There is only 2 factors that affect the outcome of any Fleet battle, and that is 'Tactics and Teamwork'. Solo PVP'ers are always at a disadvantage in PVP, where they are reliant on not only their opponents not having nearby friends, but that their particular fit isn't anathema to their own. Most of the time a 'lone ship' in a low sec belt etc, is a bait ship anyway, though jump fatigue has gone some way to addressing hot drop usage.

Plex was introduced to the game in order to combat RMT'ers, it was effective, given that if you are caught trading with RMT'ers the punitive measures are significant, and with good reason, by allowing players to trade in Plex's it allows players who don't have the time or inclination more often than not, to generate their own isk, which is not really that difficult anyway, to just acquire isk legally, but there is no magic item in the game that will give you an advantage over the other players, sometimes it can even be a liability, as a bling fit ship will always be 'uncle target'

Wizardry

Well there is a real negative to the system and one which i believe is why people just can't let go or leave their old games even after getting bored or feeling there is nothing left to attain.

Those skills you talk about that are lame in that you don't have to actually use them to level them up but whatever,that is a different topic.Those skills take a long time to build up and attain,so much so that players begin to feel they can't leave the game because they invested so much time into those skills.

Perfect proof is that do  you honestly think any long time Eve player could simply toss out their account and start up a new one?I doubt it,i doubt the fun factor is really there,they would scramble to find a way to build back up in a hurry.On the flip side any game i have played and found to be actually FUN,i could easily toss away my old accounts and start fresh no problem at all.

Now back to your diminishing effect idea,it is still pay to win and a system that is totally controlled by the owner.It was a few years back but they had said they had i believe it was 3 people that all they do is monitor the economy.This sort of thing can manipulate Plex and ISK costs to ALWAYS favor the developer and not something that is a FAIR deal for the player.

Then there is the simple fact that is players are buying so much Plex and ISK ,there is a super big problem with the whole design and rmt.We have quite often heard people talking about how fun it is to play the Eve market,well yes with such a bad design and RMT running rampant it is no wonder.I ran into the exact same problem playing FFXI over the years,RMT had such a foothold in the game prices for noob items were off the charts the economy was completely broken.

EVERYTHING in a game should  have to be totally EARNED,there should NEVER be outside RMT inference.Saying our system is helping to make it more passable is not helping the problem at all.

SpottyGekko

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Talonsin
I think Eve did it the right way.  It doesnt matter how much you spend, if you dont have the skill points, you cant use the best stuff.  As a poor use of this method, Archeage allows people to buy APEX but there is nothing stopping you from using it for P2W.  You level to Max in 2 to 3 days and then buy APEX to finance having the best weapons and armor.  In three days you can rule in PvP in Archeage.

 

This is wrong - because the best has to be available in AH - which it isnt. You cannot buy a full mythic delphinad set of anything - it doesn't exist. So you see ArcheAge has its own p2w reduction method through impossibly rare best in slot item crafting. Again if I gave you a million dollars to spend in AA - you wouldn't have the best set. Remember that there is no player in the world in a full mythic set period. There are lots of players in unique, celestial and divine. Epic, legendary and mythic remains ridiculously rare.

Lol, actually Archeage has a toatally different take on the idea of "P2W reduction".

 

In AA, they simply reduced the chance to "Win" and increased the "Pay" requirement by a few orders of magnitude. That's why there's so few rare's in the game, there's only relatively few whales that have deep enough pockets... 

immodium

It may be a good P2W reduction mechanic but it's far from a great gameplay mechanic. Being able to level skills without actually playing the game is just plain silly.

Muke

EVE "P2W" method.

 

ummm yeah.

 

OP , you forgot to mention the fact that these players need to have SKILLS to fly those ships. And with that I do not mean skillpoints, but actual mental skills to outplay their opponents.

All too often I have killed players who have bought their ships and characters through selling plexes, when they think they are invincible.

 

LOVE it.

BarakIII

Originally posted by Enbysra

• Originally posted by BarakIII

As I recall PLEX was integrated into Eve Online as a means to battling an out of control isk seller problem. The idea of being p2w, if you can call it that, was not the point. You might argue that it is p2w, but whatever you call it, it was successful at eliminating the isk seller problem and has been a healthy addition to the game economy overall. Whether this can work in other games, I don't know, but it did work in Eve.

Hmm... Any official and-or EVE Vet explanations as to how PLEX was intended to battle the isk seller problem? 

 

I was playing Eve at the time, but I was never more than a casual player. I did not keep up with the forums are anything like that. That said information is passed on so even casual players like myself do get the general gist of things.

As to how it was to battle the ISK seller problem I would think that would be obvious. PLEX at it's core is a means to officially buy ISK from CCP. There is no need to go to some third party site to buy currency. No more risk of having your account hacked by said third party sites and no more risk of having your account banned for breaking the EULA. Not to mention CCP can sell PLEX and therefore ISK for much cheaper than any third party company. One thing I do know for certain is that once PLEX was integrated into the game third party ISK sellers disappeared almost entirely and did so practically over night. The difference was immediate and dramatic.

Decimuss

Originally posted by Enbysra

Originally posted by Decimuss 

I'm talking about individual players here, not teams.

Obviously a football team is better with good players, but a certain player cannot pay money to suddenly become more efficient or better. It just doesn't happen.

In fact, those skilled players are actually paid money, instead of other way around (although there are things like player licences, but those are the same for everyone).

 

Closest example to P2W in professional sports would be match fixing, which is not a very good thing to have (and punishable if found out).

You simply cannot pay money to achieve any kind of an advantage, it goes against the basic rules of fair competition. Read the links I provided.

Fact 1. Free to Play as a business model is mandatory (unless you are a company or provide a title with a following).

Fact 2. YOU are unknown in the MMORPG Industry (we will assume you do have all of the costs of the $40-200 million you need to complete your MMORPG).

Your Homework : Don't go bankrupt and have to close your MMORPG down all together. What are you doing? And the answer has nothing to do with necessary evils either.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think these are facts?

For your point 1, I believe most games are made by companies (and most of these companies have a following). I'm not sure what your point is.

And if you truly were factually correct that F2P is "mandatory", then P2P games wouldn't exist, would they? Nor would they be possible to create. Because of this, I brand your statement fiction, not "fact".

That said, I'm not saying F2P or B2P are bad models by themselves.

What is bad however, is the Cash Shop. The only reason people view B2P/F2P games with negativity, is because of the Cash Shop, and the only reason Cash Shop exists, is because of corporate greed.

There is basically nothing preventing companies from getting the best out of B2P/F2P (accessibility & thus bigger audience) and P2P (equality & quality).

All they had to do was make these games have an optional subscription, that guarantees access to all DLC, costumes etc.

But no, they decide to incentivize Cash Shop instead of subscription and make P2W items just because of greed, which is why most people hate these games.

As for your point 2, while we both are unknown in the MMORPG industry, we have the right to demand equal & fair treatment and protest against excessive corporate greed that is destroying our passions.

 

If there is anything companies like CD Projekt Red have proven, it's that you can still make a profit by simply making good games, without Cash Shops, day 1 DLCs, preorder bonuses etc.

In fact, I'm fairly certain they've increased their sales significantly by being consumer friendly.

 

I look forward to the day majority of companies again make good games for gamers, not just their shareholders.

Deathenger

All the fancy colors and bold in your OP doesn't change the fact that your post is bullshit.

If you think EVE is pay to win then I challenge you to go plex a Shiney ship and fit it with all of the absolute best and most expensive items. Then go look for some pvp and let us all know how that p2w" works out for ya.

These thread... lol

There is no "pay to win reduction method in eve because p2w just doesn't exhist in this game no matter how many plex you buy.

Tell you what does exhist in EvE. It's FTP. I have finally reached the point to where I'm making enough isk in game to no longer have to pay cash for a subscription anymore. That's thanks to all the folks buying plex from ccp and selling on the market.

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by Deathenger
All the fancy colors and bold in your OP doesn't change the fact that your post is bullshit.

If you think EVE is pay to win then I challenge you to go plex a Shiney ship and fit it with all of the absolute best and most expensive items. Then go look for some pvp and let us all know how that p2w" works out for ya.

These thread... lol There is no "pay to win reduction method in eve because p2w just doesn't exhist in this game no matter how many plex you buy. Tell you what does exhist in EvE. It's FTP. I have finally reached the point to where I'm making enough isk in game to no longer have to pay cash for a subscription anymore. That's thanks to all the folks buying plex from ccp and selling on the market.

Try not to be too upset. I think the OP is intent on making this whole "P2W Reduction Methods" thing work, kinda like "fetch", but it doesn't. He draws P2W with such a broad brush that, essentially, every game in the world becomes P2W. In reality P2W should be a rare exception. It should be a game that should be shunned or shamed into removing the P2W aspects. Instead, the OP is intent on generalizing, so any cash shop or cash conversion is considered P2W, thereby diluting the meaning of the word, so that games can begin to ACTUALLY sell highly controversial items through their cash shops without serious recourse. 

 

In response to your post, EVE could be P2W if I had enough money to purchase some of the largest corporations, create an indomitable alliance and basically take over the game. /sarcasm