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EvE might be the game all you sandboxers are looking for...

124

Comments

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Assuming you are using this term per this definition, lacking in color, spirit, or vitality, now who is making spurious ad hominem attacks because a (minority) group of players prefer particular game mechanics and designs.

    Just because you don't like it, doesn't invalidate the preference, or make it less worthy.  Using your approach, I can look down my nose at WOW players because they play such a simple, boring game, where the end game involves a complicated version of the hokey pokey (put your left foot here, have your priests stand there, circle strafe the boss mob and turn yourself around) and no real challenge or strategy to speak of.

    It's not true of course (well, not much) but still I don't begrudge other players for liking game play mechanics that I don't care for.

    Please, let me know what games you design, clearly they aren't for me and I'll make sure to take a pass. image

    In business terms, EVE's niche is a weak segment, so the term anemic isn't an attack but simply an accurate measure of how strong the niche market is.  It's not very strong.  Hence: anemic.  It's up to you whether you treat the truth as a personal attack.

    WOW offers PVE combat puzzles.  If you choose the easy puzzles, it's easy.  If you choose the hard ones, it's hard.  People enjoy solving puzzles (as long as they're not forced to do puzzles they've totally mastered; hence the need for constant new content.)

    Did significant balance work on Age of Empires 3 Asian Dynasties (also a little work on AOE2), and Rise of Nations (+expansion).  In terms of design work, most of the games lately aren't even my own perfect preference of game because that's just how the industry works.  For example even though I love the theme (advance your civilization from the dawn age to the space age), our PVP is progression-heavy and not "fair" PVP where skill always wins.  So ironically it's exactly the type of casual PVP you'd enjoy!

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Anemic? Lol.

    When you use such an adjective in a snooty and condescending way to describe the "appeal" of a game to it's intended audience, really you've exposed yourself to the highest degree.  

    Do you think EVE's appeal is strong, to a wide audience?  No?  Then you agree it's appeal is anemic.  Why is everyone getting upset about the term?  Half of you have openly admitted your understanding that EVE has a very limited appeal -- one poster even posted that they were grateful for the limited appeal!

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Anemic? Lol.

    When you use such an adjective in a snooty and condescending way to describe the "appeal" of a game to it's intended audience, really you've exposed yourself to the highest degree.  

    Do you think EVE's appeal is strong, to a wide audience?  No?  Then you agree it's appeal is anemic.  Why is everyone getting upset about the term?  Half of you have openly admitted your understanding that EVE has a very limited appeal -- one poster even posted that they were grateful for the limited appeal!

    You and I both know what you meant by "anemic". Perhaps choose your words more carefully. 

    Now, let the back peddling begin.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    You and I both know what you meant by "anemic". Perhaps choose your words more carefully. 

    Now, let the back peddling begin.

    It's a weak market.  It's niche market.  It's an anemic market.   It all means the same thing.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Your chose of the word anemic really isn't meant to describe you're thoughts on the market, it's meant to be derogatory, plain and simple.
     
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Deathenger
    Your chose of the word anemic really isn't meant to describe you're thoughts on the market, it's meant to be derogatory, plain and simple.

    It's an accurate measure of market strength.  If you choose to consider it unusually derogatory (beyond the fact that all synonyms for 'weak' aren't exactly going to be positive), that's actually your choice.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Take wow it of the picture with its huhe player base then look at all the sub games together - does eve look 'anemic'? Nope..

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Take wow it of the picture with its huhe player base then look at all the sub games together - does eve look 'anemic'? Nope..

    The reality is that WOW and non-subscription games are part of the market.  You can't just pretend they aren't part of the market because it's an inconvenient fact.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Take wow it of the picture with its huhe player base then look at all the sub games together - does eve look 'anemic'? Nope..

    The reality is that WOW and non-subscription games are part of the market.  You can't just pretend they aren't part of the market because it's an inconvenient fact.

    WoW is for dummies.

    And trust me I know a lot of intelligent people ( Doctors etc.) that play WoW.  But it is a game for dummies.  Thats what makes it appealing.   Any dummy can pick it up and play it.

     

    EvE is a whole 'nother level though.   EvE is a game that requires intelligence, perseverance, patience, teamwork, INTELLIGENCE.   The list goes on.   You don't just play EvE.  You commit to it.

     

    And that is why I don't play it.  I wish I could.  I just can't commit to it, at this point.  But my oh my!! I sure wish I had what it takes to play this game.  I really do.   EvE players have my respect and I think it ranks with the best MMO's created.

     

    What I don't like however is when the PvP crowd uses EvE as their shining example of perfect PvP.   I am guessing that maybe 10% of the people that do this would actually survive 10 minutes in the game.   If you don't play the game , then don't use it as an example of PvP done right.   It actually is, but that still does not mean what these people think it does.

     

    Anemic?  Hardly.  More like the WoW playerbase is anemic, because they don't have the chutzpah to play EvE!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    WoW is for dummies.

    And trust me I know a lot of intelligent people ( Doctors etc.) that play WoW.  But it is a game for dummies.  Thats what makes it appealing.   Any dummy can pick it up and play it. 

    EvE is a whole 'nother level though.   EvE is a game that requires intelligence, perseverance, patience, teamwork, INTELLIGENCE.   The list goes on.   You don't just play EvE.  You commit to it. 

    And that is why I don't play it.  I wish I could.  I just can't commit to it, at this point.  But my oh my!! I sure wish I had what it takes to play this game.  I really do.   EvE players have my respect and I think it ranks with the best MMO's created. 

    What I don't like however is when the PvP crowd uses EvE as their shining example of perfect PvP.   I am guessing that maybe 10% of the people that do this would actually survive 10 minutes in the game.   If you don't play the game , then don't use it as an example of PvP done right.   It actually is, but that still does not mean what these people think it does. 

    Anemic?  Hardly.  More like the WoW playerbase is anemic, because they don't have the chutzpah to play EvE!

    The market is anemic.  Insulting WOW's playerbase doesn't change reality.

    Beyond that, your insult doesn't even make sense.  Is chess a "game for dummies" because it's simple to learn?  No, we understand that games can offer both easy and difficult challenges (and that in fact the common ideal for game design is "simple to learn, difficult to master".)  WOW's hardest challenges require a good deal of skill and intellect.

    Your comment on PVP doesn't make sense either.  Are you suggesting there are players who think EVE PVP is perfect, but who also can't last 10 minutes?  I've never seen players like that.

    In fact an earlier poster framed EVE PVP quite accurately when he conceded the game wasn't actually about PVP, but about modeling a virtual world.  Which basically concedes that while the game may be a great military simulator, it's not actually a good PVP game...and it doesn't try to be.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,905
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Assuming you are using this term per this definition, lacking in color, spirit, or vitality, now who is making spurious ad hominem attacks because a (minority) group of players prefer particular game mechanics and designs.

    Just because you don't like it, doesn't invalidate the preference, or make it less worthy.  Using your approach, I can look down my nose at WOW players because they play such a simple, boring game, where the end game involves a complicated version of the hokey pokey (put your left foot here, have your priests stand there, circle strafe the boss mob and turn yourself around) and no real challenge or strategy to speak of.

    It's not true of course (well, not much) but still I don't begrudge other players for liking game play mechanics that I don't care for.

    Please, let me know what games you design, clearly they aren't for me and I'll make sure to take a pass. image

    In business terms, EVE's niche is a weak segment, so the term anemic isn't an attack but simply an accurate measure of how strong the niche market is.  It's not very strong.  Hence: anemic.  It's up to you whether you treat the truth as a personal attack.

    WOW offers PVE combat puzzles.  If you choose the easy puzzles, it's easy.  If you choose the hard ones, it's hard.  People enjoy solving puzzles (as long as they're not forced to do puzzles they've totally mastered; hence the need for constant new content.)

    Did significant balance work on Age of Empires 3 Asian Dynasties (also a little work on AOE2), and Rise of Nations (+expansion).  In terms of design work, most of the games lately aren't even my own perfect preference of game because that's just how the industry works.  For example even though I love the theme (advance your civilization from the dawn age to the space age), our PVP is progression-heavy and not "fair" PVP where skill always wins.  So ironically it's exactly the type of casual PVP you'd enjoy!

    Clever wording on your part, but I'll concede that the market for EVE is weak, especially compared to the titans in almost every other market.  Of course the market for Ferrari's is also anemic, so I guess EVE is in pretty good company.  image

    Thanks for the game list, not my style of gaming, I'm strictly MMORPG's and quite truthfully, I've realized these days I'm strictly EVE, they just don't build MMO's as I prefer them anymore.  (though if my DAOC freeshard ever relaunches I will have one other alternative)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Wow is an outlier - it Skews the average sub per MMO. So if you want to look at how a game compares to the market you certainly do ignore outliers, and eve compared to the sub market is doing fine.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Eve is about ten years old and I love sandbox games but was never able to get into it. That being said, there hasn't been a proper sandbox game in almost as long as Eve's release and I'd rather not consider a ten year old game as THE place to go for sandbox. It's time we had a NEW sandbox game. 
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,629
    Originally posted by hfztt
    Originally posted by StoneRoses

    Sandbox 

    You use that word, but I dont think it means what you think it means...

     

    Check it out Bobby Brown!!!

     

    You can put away your little book of "When To Make An Exception."

     

    You don't decided to change the rules on what you presume is a Sandbox on your terms or when you decide to make an exception for it.

     

    If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,629
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Take wow it of the picture with its huhe player base then look at all the sub games together - does eve look 'anemic'? Nope..

    The reality is that WOW and non-subscription games are part of the market.  You can't just pretend they aren't part of the market because it's an inconvenient fact.

    WoW is for dummies.

    And trust me I know a lot of intelligent people ( Doctors etc.) that play WoW.  But it is a game for dummies.  Thats what makes it appealing.   Any dummy can pick it up and play it.

     

    EvE is a whole 'nother level though.   EvE is a game that requires intelligence, perseverance, patience, teamwork, INTELLIGENCE.   The list goes on.   You don't just play EvE.  You commit to it.

     

    And that is why I don't play it.  I wish I could.  I just can't commit to it, at this point.  But my oh my!! I sure wish I had what it takes to play this game.  I really do.   EvE players have my respect and I think it ranks with the best MMO's created.

     

    What I don't like however is when the PvP crowd uses EvE as their shining example of perfect PvP.   I am guessing that maybe 10% of the people that do this would actually survive 10 minutes in the game.   If you don't play the game , then don't use it as an example of PvP done right.   It actually is, but that still does not mean what these people think it does.

     

    Anemic?  Hardly.  More like the WoW playerbase is anemic, because they don't have the chutzpah to play EvE!

     

    TIME SINK

    Seriously? Queuing Skills and waiting 10 Days to learn your Skill requires intelligence?

    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Originally posted by StoneRoses
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Take wow it of the picture with its huhe player base then look at all the sub games together - does eve look 'anemic'? Nope..

    The reality is that WOW and non-subscription games are part of the market.  You can't just pretend they aren't part of the market because it's an inconvenient fact.

    WoW is for dummies.

    And trust me I know a lot of intelligent people ( Doctors etc.) that play WoW.  But it is a game for dummies.  Thats what makes it appealing.   Any dummy can pick it up and play it.

     

    EvE is a whole 'nother level though.   EvE is a game that requires intelligence, perseverance, patience, teamwork, INTELLIGENCE.   The list goes on.   You don't just play EvE.  You commit to it.

     

    And that is why I don't play it.  I wish I could.  I just can't commit to it, at this point.  But my oh my!! I sure wish I had what it takes to play this game.  I really do.   EvE players have my respect and I think it ranks with the best MMO's created.

     

    What I don't like however is when the PvP crowd uses EvE as their shining example of perfect PvP.   I am guessing that maybe 10% of the people that do this would actually survive 10 minutes in the game.   If you don't play the game , then don't use it as an example of PvP done right.   It actually is, but that still does not mean what these people think it does.

     

    Anemic?  Hardly.  More like the WoW playerbase is anemic, because they don't have the chutzpah to play EvE!

     

    TIME SINK

    Seriously? Queuing Skills and waiting 10 Days to learn your Skill requires intelligence?

    Now you're just making Axehilt looking like he's an EVE "pro". 

    Sit down. Damn.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Wow is an outlier - it Skews the average sub per MMO. So if you want to look at how a game compares to the market you certainly do ignore outliers, and eve compared to the sub market is doing fine.

    We're discussing market size.  EVE's market size is small compared with the demand for gameplay-focused MMOs.  You don't just get to claim something is an outlier and pretend that portion of real life doesn't exist.  (You should be glad that's the case, because EVE itself is an outlier among sandboxes!)

    Just because the whole truth is devastating to your desired world view that doesn't mean you get to ignore it.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 645

    EVE needs a freakin' college degree dedicated entirely to the game in order to even start to understand it. And there's soooooo much more I can do with my time.

     

    Whenever EVE doesn't stump you with the million-button interface of endless possibilities, you end up spending hours upon hours doing nothing but reading about what you should be doing next; reading every skill description and figuring out which ones relate to which others, reading guides in trying to make sense of all of this and reading quest logs for the few starter area quests.

     

    My first venture into the EVE universe was a beta tester. I spent the first day shooting a beam at an asteroid. By day 4, after putting in several hours a day into the game, I was still shooting a beam at an asteroid. Two years later I re-entered the world as a gamer and spent countless hours trying to make sense of everything. By the time I started to get the hang of it, I saw my skill progression go from a few minutes to a few days... as in, I had to sit there, do nothing and wait for DAYS in order to advance to the point where the game would become interesting for me again - you can only shoot so many asteroids before you feel like gouging your eyeballs out.

     

    Next attempt to enjoy the game came a few years later. All the die-hard "lifers" came out of the woodwork this time round and the chat was filled with nothing but people talking about capital ships and mega-huge-uber-battles. I'm still shooting beams at an asteroid.

     

    The game's never been re-installed on my computer since. I've worked jobs in the corporate world that had more interesting spreadsheets than this game's "gameplay" is. The addition of the 10-year-veterans to the game's current status doesn't add anything for a new-comer, it just puts in perspective how hopelessly outclassed, outmatched and out-everything they are and will forever be, thanks to the leveling system you have to sit and wait in real time for.

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Member UncommonPosts: 955
    Originally posted by Talonsin

    Sadly, it also attracts some of the lowest, bottom-feeding scumbags our planet has ever seen.

    Actively encouraged by CCP.  Even High Sec is only an illusion of safety.  If a corp of scumbags wants to grief in High-Sec all they need to do is pay 50 mill ( a tiny sum in Eve ) and issue a wardec against another corp that operates in high-sec.  Then 24 hours later camp the gates and blow to atoms any member of that corp that use them.  The corp on the receiving end can do nothing about it, even if it's a corp full of newbies.  There is a corp at the moment that do that a lot.  In fact I believe they have over 120 wardecs in place as I write this and why?  So they can demand money from those that are unable to defend themselves against them.

    That is just an example of something that is obviously a griefers charter that CCP turn a blind eye to.  It is for reasons like this and because of the scum that use them that many players don't even finish their trial periods before uninstalling.  Another are the rampant scams that are ever present.  Just fly around Jita for 30 minutes and see how quickly you can populate your block list with scammers.

     

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257
    Originally posted by Stuka1000
    Originally posted by Talonsin

    Sadly, it also attracts some of the lowest, bottom-feeding scumbags our planet has ever seen.

    Actively encouraged by CCP.  Even High Sec is only an illusion of safety.  If a corp of scumbags wants to grief in High-Sec all they need to do is pay 50 mill ( a tiny sum in Eve ) and issue a wardec against another corp that operates in high-sec.  Then 24 hours later camp the gates and blow to atoms any member of that corp that use them.  The corp on the receiving end can do nothing about it, even if it's a corp full of newbies.  There is a corp at the moment that do that a lot.  In fact I believe they have over 120 wardecs in place as I write this and why?  So they can demand money from those that are unable to defend themselves against them.

    That is just an example of something that is obviously a griefers charter that CCP turn a blind eye to.  It is for reasons like this and because of the scum that use them that many players don't even finish their trial periods before uninstalling.  Another are the rampant scams that are ever present.  Just fly around Jita for 30 minutes and see how quickly you can populate your block list with scammers.

     

    You mean, other than the fact that CCP is reworking wardecs, banning multiboxed suicide ganks and removing the ability to awox (attack) corp mates witouth retaliation? 

    Yes, pvp in highsec is the pinnable of idiocy, for lack of a better term but thankfully many of those scenarios are being fixed at least and for the remaining ones you'd have to be extremly stupid to get yourself killed. Also, the whole point of the game is not to have complete safety anywhere (outside of a station that is). And you're spreading ignorance as usual, nobody 'quits eve' in the tutorial because of some evil griefers, because you can't even legally take advantage of people in tutorial zones. 

    MMos with a difficulty slider are the pinnable of uncreative design and artificial difficulty.

    There is a saying: "Eve isn't boring, there is only boring people". For some reason a lot of people still think you are going to get spoonfed with achievements and fun by waiting for skills to train or whenr efusing to do your homework. Sadly that's not the case. Fortunately, though for the people who do commit some attention (and I said attention not time - the average eve player is a 30 years old man with an IT degree that works on a full job with wife and kids), it's the perfect mix of casual fun and hardcore elements.

  • justmemyselfandijustmemyselfandi Member UncommonPosts: 559
    If it was the game we were looking for, we would have already been there long ago.
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  • KomandorKomandor Member Posts: 272

    "If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate."

     

    Have to agree with this.

    Keep on rockin'!image

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,701
    Originally posted by Komandor

    "If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate."

     

    Have to agree with this.

    Sure you could.

    But who wants to spend a few weeks to years in real time flying straight through empty space ?

    (it was bad enough for me flying 23 hours on afterburner back in the day when you could scan out hidden caches on deep space stash points with your directional scanner and steal someones goodies)

     

    Have fun

  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,077
    Originally posted by Komandor

    "If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate."

     

    Have to agree with this.

    would the trip complete in your lifetime?

     

    Which leads to the question...how do you know you cant? 

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Komandor

    "If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate."

    Have to agree with this.

    would the trip complete in your lifetime?

    Which leads to the question...how do you know you cant? 

    Ironically enough, none of that has anything to do with a game being sandbox or not.

    Sandbox = players create the content.

    What he's describing is 'open world'. Not the same thing.

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