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EvE might be the game all you sandboxers are looking for...

135

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  • Iceman8235Iceman8235 Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Originally posted by Thane

     

    and that is NO JOKE :)

    You're pretty delusional if you think the reason EVE doesn't have a bigger player base is because it takes too much skill.  Persistence and patience definitely, skill.. not so much.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,416
    Originally posted by muffins89

    It's really fun.

     

    Wurm Online is a true sandbox with many sandbox tools. Eve has very little sandbox tools.




  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,358
    Originally posted by StoneRoses

    Sandbox 

    You use that word, but I dont think it means what you think it means...

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,358
    Originally posted by zzax
    Originally posted by hfztt
    Originally posted by jahlon
    If they would release Eve on a fresh cluster from day 1, it would take off like a shot. Problem is, you coming into a game with 10 years of history and youll never catch the veterans

    (...) And about not being able to catch up... Meh. You can easily catch up. (Perhaps more easily than any other MMO out there.)

    Show me modern MMO where leveling takes more than 3 months (which is considered minimum to even undock).

    Huh? What are you talking about? Thats just... Wrong. The main thing holding you back after 3 months is not your skills but the fact that you would still be fairly green in knowledge about how to play, especially if you have not used those three months to get your hands dirty ingame.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    This kind of attitude is completely mind boggling to me.

    You have absolutely no idea how the game works nor what I am talking about, yet you come up here again defending your supposed point with even more false assumptions. Why do you do that?

    How it works:
    Most NPC ships drop modules(equippment) or alloys - loot, items are then disassembled into basic production component - minerals.

    2 different ways of acquiring basic building components.

    Notice how explaining how it works results in no opposition while your earlier ad hominem attack resulted in continued opposition?  Maybe you should try the logical explanation sooner next time instead of just insulting people.

    So yeah mining isn't mandatory, but my early criticisms are still true.  (Because even though combat was a lot more interesting than mining, even combat wasn't all that interesting and the game encourages you not to play to the edge of your ability, where combat challenges are their most interesting. Not to mention the fact that there's likely still a lot of travel time involved in PVE (far more than other games) which further dilutes the experience.)

    Also keep in mind I didn't 'come up here' into the EVE forums.  I already pointed out the thread made more sense in its original location.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Iceman8235

    You're pretty delusional if you think the reason EVE doesn't have a bigger player base is because it takes too much skill.  Persistence and patience definitely, skill.. not so much.

    Agreed.  Which isn't saying it doesn't require skill to play EVE, but that the main thing causing players to leave is the fact that EVE has more downtime and mandatory non-gameplay than just about any other game out there (and most players play games for gameplay.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,358
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Iceman8235

    You're pretty delusional if you think the reason EVE doesn't have a bigger player base is because it takes too much skill.  Persistence and patience definitely, skill.. not so much.

    Agreed.  Which isn't saying it doesn't require skill to play EVE, but that the main thing causing players to leave is the fact that EVE has more downtime and mandatory non-gameplay than just about any other game out there (and most players play games for gameplay.)

    Jup the game sure is not for the ADHD generation. And I thank god for that each day i log in...

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by hfztt

    Jup the game sure is not for the ADHD generation. And I thank god for that each day i log in...

    It's also not for the pre-ADHD generation.  Even the oldest gamers are accustomed to games which don't deliberately waste their time with non-gameplay.  Gameplay is the point of games.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    Actually you're not going to experience much in the way of 'non-gameplay' if you know what you're doing. Of course, there's mundane and tedious tasks, but the grand majority of them can be minimized to the point where most of your active time is being spent in fun activities. Mining just happens to be the exception, but pretty much any MMO has some kind of mundane repetitive gathering, fishing or whatever. 

    Eve is a player based sandbox, it doesen't have much in the way of actual engaging content. All it has is the tools for players to create fun interactions with eachother, and that's what sandboxes are about. Eve is going to be boring or amazing, depending on how you choose to use those tools.

    It also ranks pretty high in a few things such as open world pvp. The amount of depth and strategy that game you will see with all the ships and modules is truly impressive for an mmo.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592
    Originally posted by jahlon
    If they would release Eve on a fresh cluster from day 1, it would take off like a shot. Problem is, you coming into a game with 10 years of history and youll never catch the veterans

    No, you won't, nor should you. Why should you be able to skip 10 years of skill and playtime accrual?

    <3

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    No, you won't, nor should you. Why should you be able to skip 10 years of skill and playtime accrual?

    Why?  PVP quality.

    If "who played longest" contests were interesting, we'd all be competing in Progress Quest.

    Most players understand skillful competition makes for far more interesting PVP.  To such a degree that even though games which give players the handicap of non-skill factors (progression advantages, population advantages, etc)

    It's actually sort of unexpected, since non-skill factors like progression (which skill accrual is, to a certain degree) actually make a PVP game more casual-friendly, and yet it's the non-casual PVP games like LoL that tend to do better.

    But sure, you're right that it makes no sense for EVE to chase after the hardcore PVP crowd.  They should continue providing their casual PVP, and service that niche successfully as they have, while ignoring the majority of players who slip away to real PVP games.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • randomtrandomt Member UncommonPosts: 1,218


    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by dreamscaper No, you won't, nor should you. Why should you be able to skip 10 years of skill and playtime accrual?
    Why?  PVP quality.

    One can argue that eve is NOT about pvp, and pvp game play, but rather the PVP is a mechanic that is just there as part of the virtual world setting to be used or not used as seen fit.

    Your way of thinking is that of the PVP arena gameplay, where people are pitted against each other purposely and one has to be competitive to play. Or perhaps the pvp found in traditional FPS games where one might have the best gun but one is still vulnerable to the starting gun wielding noob if one sticks one head around a corner.

    No, the PVP in EvE is more like real world military assets during a real world many factioned world war, where not everyone has access to the same level of technology and one has to deal with that in strategic planning. In the real world, a lesser, lower tech force has been able to fight off a more advanced high tech force, time and time again, using the right strategies. In the real world, people don't stop their fighting so that everyone can catch up to each other, and a virtual world should act the same way.

    That being said, a 0 day server in EvE might be interesting, but no one would be able to claim space because no one would have the advanced training to place space stations and all of the misc stuff needed to take advantage of 0.0 mechanics, so it would be a wild west of hit and runs across the board, that might be amusing.

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,825


    Originally posted by AxehiltSo yeah mining isn't mandatory, but my early criticisms are still true.

    No, they are not.


    I did explain it clearly to you before but you just keep being oblivious to your own fallacies. Seeing your recent posts, it is not me but you. You keep pushing your own ignorance further and still argue - making assumptions along with personal bias and try to pass them as facts, instead of actually learning about the game.


    Really, mind boggling attitude.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    No, they are not.

    I did explain it clearly to you before but you just keep being oblivious to your own fallacies. Seeing your recent posts, it is not me but you. You keep pushing your own ignorance further and still argue - making assumptions along with personal bias and try to pass them as facts, instead of actually learning about the game.

    Really, mind boggling attitude.

    So we're back to baseless ad hominem without any sort of logical argument. 

    Not even a specific example of something you disagree with.  Just a general passive insult.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    No, they are not.

    I did explain it clearly to you before but you just keep being oblivious to your own fallacies. Seeing your recent posts, it is not me but you. You keep pushing your own ignorance further and still argue - making assumptions along with personal bias and try to pass them as facts, instead of actually learning about the game.

    Really, mind boggling attitude.

    So we're back to baseless ad hominem without any sort of logical argument. 

    Not even a specific example of something you disagree with.  Just a general passive insult.

    No, his comment certainly has merit (this is big coming from me because I next to never agree with Gdemami).

    Your attitude towards the game is clearly composed of a combination of ignorance and an annoyance with not being able to "get into it". One really has to wonder why you even bother with EVE related threads.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619

    Eve is a one-of-a-kind game.  No other game allows one person to influence so much.  One person can make the price of something skyrocket across the galaxy or take down the strongest alliance.  The risk vs reward factor in this game makes every decision you make in game count.  It will never be as big as WoW as most people can not handle losing items in a game but it is a gem for people who dont mind working to create something.  It is also the only MMO that has seen increasing subs over its ten year period.

    Sadly, it also attracts some of the lowest, bottom-feeding scumbags our planet has ever seen.

    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    No, his comment certainly has merit (this is big coming from me because I next to never agree with Gdemami).

    Your attitude towards the game is clearly composed of a combination of ignorance and an annoyance with not being able to "get into it". One really has to wonder why you even bother with EVE related threads.

    Unless travel (and other types of downtime) is dramatically reduced, and unless combat's predeterminism is changed, then my core critique is still intact.  We know that good games are a series of interesting decisions (Sid Meier) yet compared with other games, EVE offers very sparse decisions.

    Not sure what you mean by being annoyed at not being able to get into something.  If a game fails to be fun, I'm not annoyed, I just don't play it.  If someone else praises the game on the general forum (where this started), I chime in. It's not like it's a big secret that EVE isn't for most players; I just happen to be very specific (as someone who designs games for a living) about exactly why it's not for most players.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    Eve's pvp has very little to do with 'total playtime' in terms of sucess. Anyone who preaches that as an argument doesn't really know what he's talking about and shouldn't be taken seriously. Anyone can join in and be competent in a matter of weeks, or months to rival people who are playing for 10 years if they know what they are doing. 

    Eve's mining is terrible but no less boring than other mundane crap you see in most other games like harvesting or fishing. Eve's timesinks are something easily mitigated by people who learned to optimze their gameplay. It's just that a lot of folks think they have an informed oppinion on a game after playing the trial and doing missions. For some reason most people who've played this game for a couple months tend to rate it highly (and this includes reviews from several sites which many writers are also well familiarized with game design) while people who keep following scripted missions and waiting for something exciting to happen tend to quit and badmouth it for the same reasons (bad gameplay, griefing, boring, timesinks).

    I don't really have a problem with people not liking a game, afteral I don't enjoy a lot of games out there but don't publicly badmouth them due to personal bias, however most of Eve's criticism you see in these boards are mostly from people who know very little about the game or contradict some of the basic foundations the game was based on. It's like me going into WoW's forums and saying the game sucks because you can't build houses like you do in minecraft. Well, maybe that's just not the point of the game to begin with.

    There is a saying, waiting to become sucessful in Eve is like waiting to become sucessful in real life. 

  • StarIStarI Member UncommonPosts: 987

    Yeah, the best and fairly common showcases of ignorance and overall lack of knowledge are claims like combat in EvE has no skill involved! Not only do you need huge ammount of knowledge about environment, ships, weapons and equipment types and their static and floating attributes, on top of that you have to apply all the knowledge into multitasking and monitoring of a dozen information feeds to be able to do proper and swift reactions on any change or intel gained, which if it's too slowly executed you're often done.

    So  if I make a comparison, someone who claims that all it takes in EvE is to press an orbit button, is about the same skill level as a player who does a CoD match and uses mouse&keyboard for the first time in his life.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Cecropia No, his comment certainly has merit (this is big coming from me because I next to never agree with Gdemami). Your attitude towards the game is clearly composed of a combination of ignorance and an annoyance with not being able to "get into it". One really has to wonder why you even bother with EVE related threads.

    Unless travel (and other types of downtime) is dramatically reduced, and unless combat's predeterminism is changed, then my core critique is still intact.  We know that good games are a series of interesting decisions (Sid Meier) yet compared with other games, EVE offers very sparse decisions.

    Not sure what you mean by being annoyed at not being able to get into something.  If a game fails to be fun, I'm not annoyed, I just don't play it.  If someone else praises the game on the general forum (where this started), I chime in. It's not like it's a big secret that EVE isn't for most players; I just happen to be very specific (as someone who designs games for a living) about exactly why it's not for most players.

     

    You claim to design games for a living, yet you show a real lack of understanding of how EVE really works and why some players actually enjoy the gameplay of things such as mining, or how the PvP works well in this virtual world.

    You enjoy "games" and favor designs where things are "fair and balanced", hence you enjoy playing WOW and other titles where that is the focus, and you are part of the majority I'll agree.

    But EVE isn't for the majority, it's for those who want an experience more akin to tell life, hence it has things such as long travel times ( not just a time sink) and pvp where it is far more important to win big, using any advantage you can get, than play fair or test your personal twitch skills.

    The fact you enjoy WOW totally explains your distaste for EVE, and my love of EVE explains why I don't like WOW, their designs are so very different, and almost mutually exclusive, my guess you won't find many who enjoy both games as they are today.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    Plenty of people enjoy both games. I have lots of friends in EvE that play or have played WoW in the past. A good gamer generally has an open mind about things and appreciates the subtelties of each game even if they aren't part of your personal preferences. 

    Honestly, the only reason I don't play wow myself is because I'm tired of themepark games. I've played dozens of those for the past 10 years.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    You claim to design games for a living, yet you show a real lack of understanding of how EVE really works and why some players actually enjoy the gameplay of things such as mining, or how the PvP works well in this virtual world. You enjoy "games" and favor designs where things are "fair and balanced", hence you enjoy playing WOW and other titles where that is the focus, and you are part of the majority I'll agree. But EVE isn't for the majority, it's for those who want an experience more akin to tell life, hence it has things such as long travel times ( not just a time sink) and pvp where it is far more important to win big, using any advantage you can get, than play fair or test your personal twitch skills. The fact you enjoy WOW totally explains your distaste for EVE, and my love of EVE explains why I don't like WOW, their designs are so very different, and almost mutually exclusive, my guess you won't find many who enjoy both games as they are today.

    No, I do understand the anemic reasons EVE appeals to players.  I  also understand the significant forces making it unappealing to most players.  And you've basically summed it all up above (and in cases like EVE's PVP style, it's simultaneously the reason it doesn't appeal to most players, but does appeal to an anemic group.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    But for some reason that anemic group of players has kept the game alive for longer than virtually any other title in the same genre other than wow, and continues to exist and expand as countless others emerge and collapse as the years pass. If you want to use metrics for success, at least try not to look so biased on your assumptions. 

    We understand, you played Eve during the trial and don't like this game because it contradicts your beliefs on how a game should be, and despite all of that it continues to grow and fare well, but you should probably stop using incorrect facts or your own lacking experience to try to justify your oppinion about it. Yes, it's not a game that appeals to everyone and that is not a necessarily bad thing, despite what you're trying to imply here. 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,580
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    You claim to design games for a living, yet you show a real lack of understanding of how EVE really works and why some players actually enjoy the gameplay of things such as mining, or how the PvP works well in this virtual world. You enjoy "games" and favor designs where things are "fair and balanced", hence you enjoy playing WOW and other titles where that is the focus, and you are part of the majority I'll agree. But EVE isn't for the majority, it's for those who want an experience more akin to tell life, hence it has things such as long travel times ( not just a time sink) and pvp where it is far more important to win big, using any advantage you can get, than play fair or test your personal twitch skills. The fact you enjoy WOW totally explains your distaste for EVE, and my love of EVE explains why I don't like WOW, their designs are so very different, and almost mutually exclusive, my guess you won't find many who enjoy both games as they are today.

    No, I do understand the anemic reasons EVE appeals to players.  I  also understand the significant forces making it unappealing to most players.  And you've basically summed it all up above (and in cases like EVE's PVP style, it's simultaneously the reason it doesn't appeal to most players, but does appeal to an anemic group.)

    Assuming you are using this term per this definition, lacking in color, spirit, or vitality, now who is making spurious ad hominem attacks because a (minority) group of players prefer particular game mechanics and designs.

    Just because you don't like it, doesn't invalidate the preference, or make it less worthy.  Using your approach, I can look down my nose at WOW players because they play such a simple, boring game, where the end game involves a complicated version of the hokey pokey (put your left foot here, have your priests stand there, circle strafe the boss mob and turn yourself around) and no real challenge or strategy to speak of.

    It's not true of course (well, not much) but still I don't begrudge other players for liking game play mechanics that I don't care for.

    Please, let me know what games you design, clearly they aren't for me and I'll make sure to take a pass. image

     

     

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    You claim to design games for a living, yet you show a real lack of understanding of how EVE really works and why some players actually enjoy the gameplay of things such as mining, or how the PvP works well in this virtual world. You enjoy "games" and favor designs where things are "fair and balanced", hence you enjoy playing WOW and other titles where that is the focus, and you are part of the majority I'll agree. But EVE isn't for the majority, it's for those who want an experience more akin to tell life, hence it has things such as long travel times ( not just a time sink) and pvp where it is far more important to win big, using any advantage you can get, than play fair or test your personal twitch skills. The fact you enjoy WOW totally explains your distaste for EVE, and my love of EVE explains why I don't like WOW, their designs are so very different, and almost mutually exclusive, my guess you won't find many who enjoy both games as they are today.

    No, I do understand the anemic reasons EVE appeals to players.  I  also understand the significant forces making it unappealing to most players.  And you've basically summed it all up above (and in cases like EVE's PVP style, it's simultaneously the reason it doesn't appeal to most players, but does appeal to an anemic group.)

    Anemic? Lol.

    When you use such an adjective in a snooty and condescending way to describe the "appeal" of a game to it's intended audience, really you've exposed yourself to the highest degree. 

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

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