[quote] [i]Originally posted by observer[/i] [quote] [b][i]Originally posted by Bascola[/i][/b] [quote] [b][b][i]Originally posted by observer[/i][/b][/b] [quote] [b][b][b][i]Originally posted by Bascola[/i][/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b][b]What a silly question. Wow is by no means going to be the last one or the longest running.[/b][/b][/b][/b] [*] [b][b][b][b]FFXI (13 Years, 2 years more than WoW)[/b][/b][/b][/b] [*] [b][b][b][b]EvE Online (12 Years, 1 year longer than WoW)[/b][/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b][b]FFXIV (5 Years)[/b][/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b][b]Off the top of my head, you should do some research next time.[/b][/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b][b] [/b][/b][/b][/b] [/quote] [b][b][b]Haha, wow.. so 3 out of dozens of MMO's out there.[/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b]The truth is, even WoW isn't completely p2p. It has a starter edition up to level 20 indefinitely. It's also f2p on their test server whenever it's up. EvE can be considered f2p also due to their plex system. FFXIV seems to be the lone stranger to everyone else, especially with the announcement of ESO going b2p.[/b][/b][/b] [b][b][b]That list only proves that those older MMO's were designed in a different era, with a different model, when players accepted it. Times have changed since then. B2P and F2P are here to stay.[/b][/b][/b] [/quote] [b][b]Players still accept it because they are still around and going strong. EvE is not F2P you need to subscribe to play. FFXI you conveniently ignored. Dark Age of Camelot (14 years, 3 years more than WoW) you ignored too.[/b][/b] [b][b]Those older MMO's? WOW is just as old.[/b][/b] [/quote] [b]In EvE you can convert ISK to buy PLEX, which extends your game time. The initial sub might be required still, but after that, you can keep playing indefinitely if you get more PLEX. WoW will soon be adopting this system also.[/b] [b]I didn't conveniently ignore those games. Re-read what i wrote.[/b] [b]"[b]those older MMO's were designed in a different era, with a different model, when players accepted it. ".[/b][/b] [b]I also dont see how you can say those games are still going strong, when their sub numbers are abysmal. They might be strong for niche and nostalgic players, but that's it.[/b] [b] [/b][/quote] 10 million people are laughing at this post
Soon as people start making good MMOs again, pay to play will become viable again. No one is going to pay to play a game that doesn't offer anything innovative.
I like F2P, but it will not work with every type of game. Unless a game supports a lot of customization, you can't make money on cosmetics. If you are selling much more than cosmetics, you will be branded P2W and your game will fail regardless.
Considering how subjective this is..good luck pleasing everyone and making them pay for your 'good' MMO.
Truth is that MMOS going F2P/B2P got nothing to do with games being good or bad but change in demographic and playing habits of current generation.
If i go by your logic then WOW is th only 'good' MMO left? nonsense.
I really hate that we even use WoW as a yard stick at all. WoW could, very well, be the last P2P MMO standing, but it's completely anomalous.
The real question is what the actual size of the P2P MMO industry is. I'd be interested to know, if WoW were to disappear, how many subscribers would there be out there? I'd be very surprised if everyone subscribed with WoW would simply find another P2P MMO. I'd be surprised if half did.
I really hate that we even use WoW as a yard stick at all. WoW could, very well, be the last P2P MMO standing, but it's completely anomalous.
The real question is what the actual size of the P2P MMO industry is. I'd be interested to know, if WoW were to disappear, how many subscribers would there be out there? I'd be very surprised if everyone subscribed with WoW would simply find another P2P MMO. I'd be surprised if half did.
I think a lot of wow players are not necessarily mmo players. So when they quit wow they don't go looking for another mmo. Most of my friends who played wow at the time don't play any other mmo.they were interested in wow not in MMOs as a genre.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Before wow, 300k subs were considered AWESOME and the MMO was considered thriving with those numbers
After wow, any MMO with less than 1 million subs are considered a utter failure and investors will run away screaming, forcing the game be put on life support and made F2P.
I hope P2P sticks around, it's the only model i play for more than a month, and even then none that have come out in the past few years can keep my interest. After 3 year break from WoW I returned just before WoD was released and have been having fun since. Tried a bunch of B2P/F2P games in those 3 years and didnt enjoy any of them for long. GW2 was about the best at a month. So for me, i really hope P2P continues.
I haven't found any F2P MMOs with the population, content, and expansions that WOW or any other P2P MMO has.
Still trying to figure out what is so successful about F2P games.
Are people celebrating the money companies make? I thought companies were evil. And how exactly does this benefit the player? It's not like they put that money back into the game.
Someone noted that SWTOR made 300 million in 2013 and 200 million in 2014. Where did that $500Million go? I can tell you, it didn't go into the game. Not bashing SWTOR. I'm just using it as an example. The question can be applied to any F2P/B2P game.
New games will continue to launch as P2P, in an effort to extort more money from the customer before changing to a more friendly model. It will be the rare exception (FF XIV) that will actually be trying to survive on a P2P model.
I think a lot of wow players are not necessarily mmo players. So when they quit wow they don't go looking for another mmo. Most of my friends who played wow at the time don't play any other mmo.they were interested in wow not in MMOs as a genre.
That's exactly how I am. If I decide to quit playing FFXIV for good I'm not going to go searching for another MMO to play. I'm a console/single player game person at heart, and there's plenty I've neglected during the time I've been soaking the majority of my time into an MMO.
What a silly question. Wow is by no means going to be the last one or the longest running.
FFXI (13 Years, 2 years more than WoW)
EvE Online (12 Years, 1 year longer than WoW)
FFXIV (5 Years)
Off the top of my head, you should do some research next time.
Haha, wow.. so 3 out of dozens of MMO's out there.
The notable thing isn't how many, but when they were released. Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Tibia, Horizons/Istaria, Puzzle Pirates, Dark Age of Camelot... Maybe the reason is they retain a sub-dedicated playerbase or maybe there's something about a decade or more of content that makes it worth the sub.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Still profitable to stay P2P we can't forget mmo companies still want make as much money they can for what ever way on the cost of the game dieing on them or not, that is any mmo companies just how it is.
Originally posted by Sircampsalot08 FFXIV is also showing the subscription model still works.
I think people are misunderstanding the true implications of the question (perhaps OP themselves). I will choose to not take the question literally.
It's not about "being successful" or "still working": we all know that a subscription game CAN work. We've seen it, and I'm pretty sure some obscure indie game can make it work 1 year, 10 years, 50 years from now.
What sub models are about is what makes more money.
Most (if not all) businesses literally chose the subscription model based on what the current trends show is the most popular/best ROI model.
Two sides to this:
- Consumers: if people look at the competition and see quality games are either F2P/B2P, P2P games will have a harder time justifying their subs.
- Business: If a company wants to make money, they will chose the best ROI. It can be severely affected by "consumers" expectations: if they expect a B2P/F2P game, then your P2P game will fail to make any money (nobody will buy it and pay for it).
It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.
What is really in opposition here is: "model X simply works" versus "model Y works better".
I voted yes, as in: yes I suspect the "pure" P2P model will be completely given up by most businesses and WoW might be the last company that sticks to it, at least partially as they have shown (but then again, they're already going for hybrid).
WoW is perhaps one of the last MMORPGs that can afford to ignore the competitor's sub models.
The only reason WoW will be the last P2P MMO (and it probably will) is that Blizzard will continue to take advantage of the millions of sheep that think it's delivering good value for money in churning out crap content, minimalist expansions and taking billions for doing it.
Originally posted by Sircampsalot08 FFXIV is also showing the subscription model still works.
I think people are misunderstanding the true implications of the question (perhaps OP themselves). I will choose to not take the question literally.
It's not about "being successful" or "still working": we all know that a subscription game CAN work. We've seen it, and I'm pretty sure some obscure indie game can make it work 1 year, 10 years, 50 years from now.
What sub models are about is what makes more money.
Most (if not all) businesses literally chose the subscription model based on what the current trends show is the most popular/best ROI model.
Two sides to this:
- Consumers: if people look at the competition and see quality games are either F2P/B2P, P2P games will have a harder time justifying their subs.
- Business: If a company wants to make money, they will chose the best ROI. It can be severely affected by "consumers" expectations: if they expect a B2P/F2P game, then your P2P game will fail to make any money (nobody will buy it and pay for it).
It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.
What is really in opposition here is: "model X simply works" versus "model Y works better".
I voted yes, as in: yes I suspect the "pure" P2P model will be completely given up by most businesses and WoW might be the last company that sticks to it, at least partially as they have shown (but then again, they're already going for hybrid).
WoW is perhaps one of the last MMORPGs that can afford to ignore the competitor's sub models.
(Talking about the Western market only)
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
Originally posted by askdaboss Originally posted by Sircampsalot08 FFXIV is also showing the subscription model still works.
I think people are misunderstanding the true implications of the question (perhaps OP themselves). I will choose to not take the question literally.
It's not about "being successful" or "still working": we all know that a subscription game CAN work. We've seen it, and I'm pretty sure some obscure indie game can make it work 1 year, 10 years, 50 years from now.
What sub models are about is what makes more money.
Most (if not all) businesses literally chose the subscription model based on what the current trends show is the most popular/best ROI model.
Two sides to this:
- Consumers: if people look at the competition and see quality games are either F2P/B2P, P2P games will have a harder time justifying their subs.
- Business: If a company wants to make money, they will chose the best ROI. It can be severely affected by "consumers" expectations: if they expect a B2P/F2P game, then your P2P game will fail to make any money (nobody will buy it and pay for it).
It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.
What is really in opposition here is: "model X simply works" versus "model Y works better".
I voted yes, as in: yes I suspect the "pure" P2P model will be completely given up by most businesses and WoW might be the last company that sticks to it, at least partially as they have shown (but then again, they're already going for hybrid).
WoW is perhaps one of the last MMORPGs that can afford to ignore the competitor's sub models.
(Talking about the Western market only)
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
I think wow will go F2Play before FFARR will. To be honest with the disaster that WOD is FFARR is without question the new king of themepark MMO's... Anyone who enjoys a themepark ride with gear grind ie dungeons and raiding at end game is crazy to still be playing wow over FFARRR.
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
Token isn't hybrid?
Hybrid is a f2p game that also has the option for subscription for extra benefits like Tera or SWTOR or LOTRO. Every single person playing WoW even with the Token system, Blizzard is still making the same amount of $$. Because in order to use a token, someone has to have first bought the token.
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
Token isn't hybrid?
Hybrid is a f2p game that also has the option for subscription for extra benefits like Tera or SWTOR or LOTRO. Every single person playing WoW even with the Token system, Blizzard is still making the same amount of $$. Because in order to use a token, someone has to have first bought the token.
Hahah yeah don't bother to explain it, the WoW players do not understand this. They think they are playing for free if they farm gold and then buy a token. They totally can't wrap their heads around the fact that every Token used is $20 for Blizzard. Not only is it a full sub price of $15 it also comes with a premium of $5 for Blizzard.
Comments
Considering how subjective this is..good luck pleasing everyone and making them pay for your 'good' MMO.
Truth is that MMOS going F2P/B2P got nothing to do with games being good or bad but change in demographic and playing habits of current generation.
If i go by your logic then WOW is th only 'good' MMO left? nonsense.
All of them except EQNext. They release as P2P for a year to get money to finish the game at witch point they switch to F2P or B2P.
I really hate that we even use WoW as a yard stick at all. WoW could, very well, be the last P2P MMO standing, but it's completely anomalous.
The real question is what the actual size of the P2P MMO industry is. I'd be interested to know, if WoW were to disappear, how many subscribers would there be out there? I'd be very surprised if everyone subscribed with WoW would simply find another P2P MMO. I'd be surprised if half did.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I think a lot of wow players are not necessarily mmo players. So when they quit wow they don't go looking for another mmo. Most of my friends who played wow at the time don't play any other mmo.they were interested in wow not in MMOs as a genre.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
It's all about investor greed.
Before wow, 300k subs were considered AWESOME and the MMO was considered thriving with those numbers
After wow, any MMO with less than 1 million subs are considered a utter failure and investors will run away screaming, forcing the game be put on life support and made F2P.
I hope not.
I haven't found any F2P MMOs with the population, content, and expansions that WOW or any other P2P MMO has.
Still trying to figure out what is so successful about F2P games.
Are people celebrating the money companies make? I thought companies were evil. And how exactly does this benefit the player? It's not like they put that money back into the game.
Someone noted that SWTOR made 300 million in 2013 and 200 million in 2014. Where did that $500Million go? I can tell you, it didn't go into the game. Not bashing SWTOR. I'm just using it as an example. The question can be applied to any F2P/B2P game.
That's exactly how I am. If I decide to quit playing FFXIV for good I'm not going to go searching for another MMO to play. I'm a console/single player game person at heart, and there's plenty I've neglected during the time I've been soaking the majority of my time into an MMO.
your joking right? compared to others WoW is still an infant
Ultima Online, still P2P
Anarchy Online, P2P/B2P/F2P mix
EvE Online P2P
And thats just a few
The notable thing isn't how many, but when they were released. Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Tibia, Horizons/Istaria, Puzzle Pirates, Dark Age of Camelot... Maybe the reason is they retain a sub-dedicated playerbase or maybe there's something about a decade or more of content that makes it worth the sub.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The Realm Online brother....
Pay2Play since 1995.
Yeah..... that is 20 years.
Wow is the only mmo that can do it and make it profitable.
I think people are misunderstanding the true implications of the question (perhaps OP themselves). I will choose to not take the question literally.
It's not about "being successful" or "still working": we all know that a subscription game CAN work. We've seen it, and I'm pretty sure some obscure indie game can make it work 1 year, 10 years, 50 years from now.
What sub models are about is what makes more money.
Most (if not all) businesses literally chose the subscription model based on what the current trends show is the most popular/best ROI model.
Two sides to this:
- Consumers: if people look at the competition and see quality games are either F2P/B2P, P2P games will have a harder time justifying their subs.
- Business: If a company wants to make money, they will chose the best ROI. It can be severely affected by "consumers" expectations: if they expect a B2P/F2P game, then your P2P game will fail to make any money (nobody will buy it and pay for it).
It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.
What is really in opposition here is: "model X simply works" versus "model Y works better".
I voted yes, as in: yes I suspect the "pure" P2P model will be completely given up by most businesses and WoW might be the last company that sticks to it, at least partially as they have shown (but then again, they're already going for hybrid).
WoW is perhaps one of the last MMORPGs that can afford to ignore the competitor's sub models.
(Talking about the Western market only)
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
I think people are misunderstanding the true implications of the question (perhaps OP themselves). I will choose to not take the question literally.
It's not about "being successful" or "still working": we all know that a subscription game CAN work. We've seen it, and I'm pretty sure some obscure indie game can make it work 1 year, 10 years, 50 years from now.
What sub models are about is what makes more money.
Most (if not all) businesses literally chose the subscription model based on what the current trends show is the most popular/best ROI model.
Two sides to this:
- Consumers: if people look at the competition and see quality games are either F2P/B2P, P2P games will have a harder time justifying their subs.
- Business: If a company wants to make money, they will chose the best ROI. It can be severely affected by "consumers" expectations: if they expect a B2P/F2P game, then your P2P game will fail to make any money (nobody will buy it and pay for it).
It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.
What is really in opposition here is: "model X simply works" versus "model Y works better".
I voted yes, as in: yes I suspect the "pure" P2P model will be completely given up by most businesses and WoW might be the last company that sticks to it, at least partially as they have shown (but then again, they're already going for hybrid).
WoW is perhaps one of the last MMORPGs that can afford to ignore the competitor's sub models.
(Talking about the Western market only)
WoW isn't in the process of going hybrid in the slightest.
You said yourself, mmo companies are in the business of making money. So if Blizzard thought WoW would make more money going f2p, they would go f2p. FFXIV ARR would have probably 1-2m subs if FFXIV 1.0 wasn't so shitty and burned so many people from ever trying the game, no matter how well they turned it around. Even with the blackmark, FFXIV ARR has managed 500k+ subscribers and actually growing and not losing subscribers.
Clearly this shows there's nothing wrong with p2p mmorpgs. The only problem and i keep repeating this, is shitty games. When you force people to pay a monthly for a shitty game, don't act fucking surprised when people leave your game in hordes. Seriously, why the fuck are you surprised this happens and try to blame it on p2p? If you have a good game, people are going to shell out a monthly for it. End of story.
Token isn't hybrid?As long as people are willing to eat dog feces, companies will keep serving it.
Aloha Mr Hand !
Hybrid is a f2p game that also has the option for subscription for extra benefits like Tera or SWTOR or LOTRO. Every single person playing WoW even with the Token system, Blizzard is still making the same amount of $$. Because in order to use a token, someone has to have first bought the token.
Lol, the MMO scene does not revolve only about WOW, look further and you might find other MMOs in existence.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Hahah yeah don't bother to explain it, the WoW players do not understand this. They think they are playing for free if they farm gold and then buy a token. They totally can't wrap their heads around the fact that every Token used is $20 for Blizzard. Not only is it a full sub price of $15 it also comes with a premium of $5 for Blizzard.
/smh