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EQN and paying for content concern..
SlyLoK
Member RarePosts: 2,698
After seeing H1Z1 sell content that the buyer may not even recieve / partake in got me thinking.
What would everyone think if the the only way to trigger the Heroic Calls ( what are they called again? ) would be if someone paid for it?
What would everyone think if they sell a quest that spawns an NPC and if someone else talks to that NPC first then the person who bought the quest could no longer do it?
Comments
Sounds good. I wouldn't buy one but to each their own
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Someone paying to spawn a large event sounds fun, but not sure how that would work into the "living world" design if things magically appear next to in-game ATM machines.
Same goes for quests or first come first serve content. Personally would have no issue if someone wants to gamble their own money for the chance at someone else's benefit.
While I see you trying to make a connection, really not there. Totally different game designs. What comes from Airdrops can directly impact other players personally.
Now if the EQN stuff was PVP related and turned someone into a killing machine, that might be a problem for me.
It isnt different at all. It is taking basic mechanics from each game and putting them on the cash shop. Paying for a quest in EQN that someone could snipe from you is no different than paying for an airdrop that someone can snipe from you. In EQN you would lose Experience and Item Rewards and your cash and in H1Z1 you lose items and your cash.
Whats next? That is the whole problem here. Where does it end?
Did I miss when EQN was turned into a survival PVP game?
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but I'll assume you're serious.
As EQN won't have or at least there is no reference to PVP with loss of any kind, not apples to apples.
Your OP didn't mention sniping or killing others. Simply "what if" someone triggered something from a cash shop purchase and it impacted others, in your example, positively.
As I said, if EQN had a heavy PVP component and purchases impacted that, I'd be concerned. Currently zero indication of that and looking at the changes already made to H1Z1, not even going to be a problem in a FFA PVP world.
I still get where you are going, but your examples aren't realistic from what has actually been revealed. Playing the "what if" game with your imagination doesn't really get too far.
Personally more concerned with them going the pay wall route like EQ/EQ2 where players have to constantly purchase "content" to play within the "free" world. I have no issue buying cosmetics and even convenience items, with or without a sub to go with it, but if I have to pay $5 per zone or $1 per item I want to equip, that will be a problem. They've done fairly well with the cash shops in PS2 and Landmark and H1Z1's doesn't sound terrible all things considered. Really not afraid that EQN will be drastically different. If I'm having fun at a reasonable price, all's good. If my fun is being impacted by what others are buying or if I'm taking out loans to pay off my cash shop purchases, I'll probably rethink my POV.
I don't blame people for having these concerns. It would be great if a studio just wanted to create an mmo "for the love of the game", but that's not how it works. These are businesses, and of all we read about most recently, SOE has attracted alot of attention with Planetside 2 and H1Z1. It's natural to assume this is going to carry on into EQL and EQN, and I admit, I'm a little on edge about the prospect myself.
Maybe they'll learn a better way to do it instead of making half or more of the people mad. I guess we'll see.
Probably 20% are going to be mad anyway because the demographic of "people who play video games" often includes a particularly unstable crowd. I do own a business, investments in several actually, and profit relies on return business, so while I realize there are some customers I'll never please and I have to let them walk, I don't try to make any of them mad.
Some game devs do treat customers as club owners or restauranteurs treat customers, but the current trend seems to be treating customers like slot machine players, like they project the end of the genre's coming soon and they need to capitalize quickly to grab their quick buck before the technology leaves this all in the dust. I don't think that's going to happen so soon. I think there's still room for a solid, full content home to which players will return again and again for the next several years.
There re some things that work well in a cashshop and some that doesn't.
While you can sell dungeon access (I am not saying I like stuff like this but it at least isn't broken) selling open world content is just bad. Stuff like that turns away far too many potential customers.
F2P games needs to focus on selling stuff that makes it easier for the paying customers without totally destroying the balance of the game.
Exra bank and character slots are good things to sell, some people really enjoy to save loads of crap or play 15 alts but that doesn't destroy the balance of the game. Skins work excellent, items with stats isn't as good and if you sell top ranked gear you risk that many people think that the endgame is pointless since most players goal is to get the best gear in the game. If they just can buy it many will do so but be bored fast and quit.
Fancy player housing and stuff for that does not either affect the game and are a good thing to sell.
Limiting peoples abilities to own rare stuff, in game money and stats is also very risky.
There is a fine balance between a successful F2P model and being too greedy so you turn off far too many players. Lets hope they don't mess that up like they did in EQ2.
I hate Freemium models. They're extremely tough to balance. Either they'll be too friendly and they'll have to adjust them later or they'll be too pay-to-win and drive everyone off.
Whatever happened to the good old days of buying a game once and playing it or paying a modest subscription fee to access the complete game?
Let's go back to that.
While I won't pretend I know how the economics of gaming work, I'm assuming the cost difference in putting together a quality product is much greater today. $50-60 box and $10-15/month doesn't seem to be enough to either break even or turn a profit unless a game is hitting millions of players which few seem to do or at least very long.
With how many games are out and coming, how fickle we are as gamers, and all the alternative methods of paying/playing, sticking to the old model doesn't seem to cut it.
I agree that is is tough to balance a freemium product, but it isn't impossible. Can only hope that a company gets it right.
The economics of gaming is funny.. So much depends on how the game is designed, as to who they are targeting , and for how long.. It's very much like playing the stock market (aka gamble).. Sure there are safe investments that are low risk, but yield a minimal return.. Then you have your high risk investments that could inflate your bank account to smiling
proportions, but those are rare and hard to find..
Most will say your average low cost game will run about $10 million a year.. If you force it out the door in 4 years, allowing for time value, you end up with a $50 million investment that needs to be recovered.. Question is, how do you recover it, and what is your window of recovery and opportunity? Is it a 1 year window?, 2 year window? or 5? WoW is the perfect cash cow investment, probably never to be repeated by anyone, even Blizzard..
Lets use WoW as the example for a sub based game.. Assuming it cost $20 million a year to develop over a period of 5 years, said company is out 125 million.. (don't forget to include lost interest).. lol Now that $125 million needs to be recovered quickly ( normally within 6-12 months ) at a total of 130 million.. Given that scenario, at a box cost of $50, you need to sell 2.6 boxes.. cha ching.. (This is why hype means everything) That is a tough sell.. However the good part is if you can tie in a subscription on top of that.. If you can sell 2.6 boxes, then the sub is all profit to be used for future investments.. Everyone in the company is happy.. Now if you don't sell that number of boxes, you have to rely on subs to make up the difference.. Lets assume you only sell 1.5 million boxes, you are now $45 million behind..
Now you get into how many customers can you retain after 30 days, or 90 days.. etc.. We all know that many games struggle to keep paying customers after the honeymoon phase.. That is just natural business rather it be gaming or a new restaurant opening.. Designing a sub based game is very high risk.. Big pay off like WoW, or mediocre pay off like SWTOR and Rift.. Most companies now a day are resorting to quick development cycles, focusing on cash shops, as they are the low risk alternative.. As the old saying goes, GO BIG OR GO HOME.. Most gaming companies are going home.. It's just too scarey to shell out $100+ million in hopes of landing that 2.5 million customer base Tuna.. Most rather go small investment with a cash shop and rinse and repeat game after game..
Crazkanuk
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They're really NOT hard to balance. Most dev teams just don't try to, that's all.
And frankly, I much prefer a "freemium" model to any subscription. You cannot possibly convince me that any game is so good that it's worth spending over a hundred dollars on it every year for the rest of my life. Not in an age where I can buy half a dozen (or more) good indie titles or enjoyable bargain bin games with that money. Especially since AAA games nowadays tend to cut more and more corners each year, getting lazier and lazier with their work on the actual game.
There's a reason that the forced subscription model is dying out: people don't want to commit that much money to a game which may not deliver the enthralling experience they expect. The sub model is a relic of a time when a subscription model actually stood for something. A seal of quality rather than just a business model. And back then, the gap between the quality of F2P and sub games was much larger. It's simply not any more.
You may be correct about not pay to win in EQ Next, but it definitely wouldn't be because of the reason you provided. They could easily provide events that don't have any effect beyond the localized event. You may also be wrong and EQ Next could be full of pay to win options. Either way, time will tell.
Let's party like it is 1863!
What would the fee be?
No one is being taken advantage of or if they are, they probably shouldn't be allowed on the internet by themselves.
We pay for entertainment. Some people are willing to pay nothing, some a set fee, some on a need/want basis. SOE and EQN will be going after all three customers.
TF2 has a great cash shop and I don't regret anything I buy, nor do I ever feel like I needed anything. Purely want driven. Won't spend a dime for weeks or even months, then I'll drop $5, 10, 50 on something I want. As SOE staff have said they admire Valves system, I hope EQN and other games adopt something similar. I think Player Studio and simply the mass variety of things to sell by SOE could keep them from ever having to go down the wrong path.
Difference is Valve doesn't nickel and dime people for bullshit. They sell ONLY cosmetic items. SOE likes to add XP potions, and mounts, and equipment you can buy, and in the case of PS2 implants that actually affect (albeit minor) your ability to kill other players, etc.
So, they can respect it all they want, but there is a HUGE difference in the implementation.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I play a good bit of EQ2, haven't seen anything in the shop that's a game changer. Plus, how are XP pots so bad when it's ok now for MMOs to sell pre-leveled toons? Also, aren't mounts just cosmetic items?
I agree there are differences, but looking at the changes they've made over the last few years, they seem to be going in the right direction.
TF2 specifically, they sell quite a lot beyond cosmetic items. Hats and what not are what started it, but items (weapons), keys to open crates for "rare" items, and other things are available. I think the difference is that obtaining items in TF2 through random luck, crafting, and trading is all relatively easy and part of the fun. There isn't a huge disconnect between the various ways to gain things, be it through playing or buying. Someone might buy a new item the first day it is released, but really isn't hard to come by if someone wants it and not willing to pay (there are exceptions). Also fairly well balanced so buying a $50 pack of items doesn't equate to "winning" vs someone that hasn't spent a penny. Obviously TF2 is a different game then anything SOE has, but I think the basic idea can be used by any company/game.
While I didn't play EQ/EQ2 after the F2P change and all the pay walls, from what I see of the current model and newer games, they are trying to make it less nickel n dime like. Not to say that whatever they end up will be perfect for everyone. If you find selling mounts or xp potions to be too much, then it is simply a matter of having differing values then the company. No harm in that.
I personally don't care if someone wants to throw money at the screen to increase their enjoyment if it doesn't take away from mine. Time will tell, but releasing F2P and banking on the game being fun enough that people want to throw money at them instead of need to is a good start. Which they've said is the plan.
I personally don't think pre levelled toons are ok. Or XP pots, but im a bittered, jaded old gamer who only looks at things through rose colored glasses and can't cope with the changing times, etc.
Mounts are generally not cosmetic because 99 times out of 100 they are as fast or faster than the best mount you can get in game. So, you have the option of A. Using the crappy cheap mount in game. B. Grinding for gold/faction/whatever so you can get the super uber mount, or C. Bust out the credit card and buy the super uber mount, which also 99 times out of 100 looks WAY cooler than anything you can get in game.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I believe for some it is a matter of principal and no matter what they won't budge from their stance. People complain about cosmetic items being P2W and how it is unfair or forces players to buy things, which is silly. "Billy has the gold horse which is only in the cash shop, no fair!" Yet it is totally fine for someone to be able to grind 40+ hours a week for whatever reward which the average person can't.
From my POV, it seems like some folks simply can't or won't spend money on items and therefore it is a terrible system, regardless if others enjoy it or not. My way or the highway. Unfortunately for them, the trend seems to be heading F2P + Shop or Sub + Shop so it's either deal with a shop for free or deal with the shop and a monthly fee. It isn't going anywhere.
I can't even wrap my head around the fact that you seem glad that things are the way they are.
So basically what you said is you're ok with the fact that people who can't afford to pay 20 or 30 dollars for some item, are getting screwed. Now, don't take me wrong, i'm not one of those people who believe games should be free. I personally like the subscription model. That being said. People play games to have fun, partially to escape from real life stresses. People want to know that its a fair playing ground. Its like if you played football in highschool, and because the other team's players had rich parents, and could afford to pay for some hypothetical magical shoes that let them run 20% faster. Well, you can't afford that so you're stuck being screwed left and right every game because the other person paid for an advantage, or, you can work your ass off for 30 hours of extra work over and above what you already do, just so you can buy these shoes (when that time/effort could have been put into myriad other things).
Now, i understand we have to define what is p2w, what is cosmetic, etc.
In the case of mounts, If someone has to grind 30 hours of faction or whatever to get a mount someone can buy in a shop, thats P2W, not cosmetic. Its a minor amount of "win" but its still "win". Now, if all they were doing was buying a SKIN to change an existing mount they've already spent 30 hours grinding faction (or whatever) for, then thats cosmetic. Its not P2W.
Dota 2, and LoL, and TF2, etc, only sell truly cosmetic items, and they are EASILY the examples of the most profitable forms of F2P games. Easily. You don't have to spend 20 hours grinding in game to play a certain hero, all of is available from the start. But, if you want that swanky looking new sword with the flashy graphics, you can pay 2 or 3 bucks for it.
There's also the issue of cost. Blizz charges like 20 or 25 dollars for a mount. with 25 i can buy like 10 full sets for different heroes in Dota 2. Not just single items, but head to toe changes to the way the character looks.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I wouldn't like that at all but I doubt EQN will do this and it's worth noting that in H1Z1 the airdrops can be gained in game as well. I think the fact what is bought with money isn't only the property of the buyer equalizes things.
It will be interesting to see what EQN does have monetized though. As focused on principals as we'd all like to be the reality is MMOs released F2P from the beginning will need the initial and continual income if it's to launch a quality title and remain so over time.
Only cosmetic items? Sounds great but I doubt it. Take a look at any MMO that has even mostly cosmetic items... that wasn't initially funded by a sub model (base funds, box sales, and sub for n months before conversion). The money has to come from somewhere, no matter what the model.
I don't know about Dota 2 or TF2 but LoL sells both IP and XP boosts that are cash only. This may Not seem like much but XP gains levels which bring greater power via rune slots/masteries and IP is a way to get champions and runes. You could say you can pay for both convenience and power. There are only a handful of champions that are free each week and if you want to purchase a more recent champ (6300IP), it can take a while playing:
Example, ARAM: 6300IP / 70IP per win (Avg. daily bonus and regulars) * 1/2 hour (Avg. playing and waiting) = 45 hours... if you win each match. A "regular" match can last up to an hour or more, increasing the time to gain IP.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with this, I agree that LoL is a great example of how F2P can be... for a MOBA. I have a hard time believing that the cost to develop and maintain a MOBA is even close to a decent size MMORPG. Though to be honest I'd have no idea as I'm not in the industry. Therefore I don't think a quality MMO could be developed and continually funded long term on cosmetic purchases.