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Should the subscription model go away?

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Superman0X
    Originally posted by remyburke
    Originally posted by Scot
    P2P is the only payment system that was consistent with fair gaming ethos, only if you want gaming to become a online casino would I think it is a good idea we see an end to P2P.

    I need to find a slow clap meme. Well said, Scot!

    How soon we forget... P2P has had both civil lawsuits, as well as government intervention due to it unfairness. If you cant remember/find any of this, then you really are not trying, and no matter what facts I bring up, it wont change your mind. (This is like calling Enron the only ethical energy company).

    http://www.joystiq.com/2014/01/30/gta-online-class-action-lawsuit-dismissed/

    Anyone can file a civil suit for any reason. Doesn't mean it's valid.

    GTA Online does not require a subscription either way o.o" Beside the networking fee from each console brand. Which Rockstar and Take-Two get no share from. I think you missed his point.

    I didn't miss the point. 

    It's just that for the amount of time I searched google......or would continue to do so before determining that it's a waste of my time to continue, I could not find an example of an MMO being sued over it's P2P business model.

     

    Edit.....I found one.......

    Someone sued Square Enix for......get this.........FIVE MILLION claiming FF11 didn't properly disclose their fee structure.

    No, that's not a frivolous law suit.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,203
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Superman0X
    Originally posted by remyburke
    Originally posted by Scot
    P2P is the only payment system that was consistent with fair gaming ethos, only if you want gaming to become a online casino would I think it is a good idea we see an end to P2P.

    I need to find a slow clap meme. Well said, Scot!

    How soon we forget... P2P has had both civil lawsuits, as well as government intervention due to it unfairness. If you cant remember/find any of this, then you really are not trying, and no matter what facts I bring up, it wont change your mind. (This is like calling Enron the only ethical energy company).

    http://www.joystiq.com/2014/01/30/gta-online-class-action-lawsuit-dismissed/

    Anyone can file a civil suit for any reason. Doesn't mean it's valid.

    GTA Online does not require a subscription either way o.o" Beside the networking fee from each console brand. Which Rockstar and Take-Two get no share from. I think you missed his point.

    I didn't miss the point. 

    It's just that for the amount of time I searched google......or would continue to do so before determining that it's a waste of my time to continue, I could not find an example of an MMO being sued over it's P2P business model.

     

    Edit.....I found one.......

    Someone sued Square Enix for......get this.........FIVE MILLION claiming FF11 didn't properly disclose their fee structure.

    No, that's not a frivolous law suit.

    Ok. I understand your confusion. No one sues because companies charge money (except frivolous suits). However, there are issues of fraud, theft, illegal gambling, and all sorts of misbehavior that have drawn both public and private reaction. Your choice to not look for any of this is what I was referring too. It is like referring to Hannibal Lector as a great chef, and stating that you cant find any flaws in his cooking technique.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807

    Ok, to be fair, in the case I mentioned above, assuming the planiff has a valid point and i didn't search far enough in, late fees on an MMO subscription is Bullshit.

     

    That said, I doubt she suffered 5M in damages.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,912
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     

    The assassin's creed franchise and The Crew disagrees with you. 

     

    Oh, almost forgot. Subscription doesn't mean quality. Plenty of examples. 

    A, if you are going make a rebuttal then have one. The first Assasin's creed cost 24 million to make. How much did the others cost? I bet less than AAA mmo's of  the same time period? No? Yes? I can pull up the skyrim example which does agree with me. It shows that it cost less to develop than a AAA mmo; less than the 100 million. Making back its development cost and then some by far.

    so go ahead, finish your thought.

    B, I never said subscription means quality just as single player or f2p doesn't mean quality or lack thereof. Not sure why you put that there.




  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Velocinox

    Why do westerners always think there are only three MMO business models?

    Subs

    B2P

    F2P

     

    The Asians have been using buy game time for years and the western MMO businesses are terrified we learn about that option.

     

    We have time cards! Nope... that's not buy time. You buy 40 hours, you play 6 hours on the weekend, you have 34 left. Not til the end of the month, period. You have 34 hours left to play. It doesn't tick down if you're not in the game. It's about the same as a monthly subscription costs, but you don't lose it at the end of the month.

     

    [culturally arrogant sarcasm]

    But then the west knows everything about MMO economics already.... what can they teach us?

    [/culturally arrogant sarcasm]

     Maybe you should explore why that model works.  You don't think people have tried making game cafe's and such.  They all fail miserably.  They're popular in asia because most people can't afford to buy their own hardware, + internet access, +cost of buying game,etc etc.  It has just about squat to do with anything else.  There's a reason thats the predominant method of playing games in poor/third world countries.

     

    You can't see adopting the buy time model for home use? Without having to go to an internet/gaming cafe? Really? Is that blindspot all that is stopping us from another more dynamic payment method for westerners?

     

    No, I think it's far more likely that western MMO companies are happy receiving $15 a month for people not logging in, and allowing them to only pay for the time they are actually gaming (which makes sense) is not high on their list of priorities. Internet cafes has nothing to do with their thinking. (though I am sure they will bring it up to obfuscate the issue in an attempt to turn unaware consumers against it before its given a chance.)

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,870
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Sukiyaki
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Why do people consider b2p any different than f2p? Sure there is a difference for the publisher and developer in that they get more money by making you pay a digital box cost for a free to play game. That money is not reinvested into the game anymore than a regular old f2p. For the player, it's a scam imo. 

    What a scam it must be to pay 15USD every month and 60 USD for mediocre DLC for a regular free to play game. Isn't it?

    If a p2p game's expansion is nothing more than a DLC you should not buy it. By charging full box cost you should recieve an entire game with atleast as much content as the original.

     

    From the two b2p games on the market GW2, and the Secret world, one hasn't even offered a DLC and still has no customer service phone support despite selling nearly 7 million boxes. Neither haven hinted at an expansion. Even Swtor as a full f2p/freemium has had expansions.

    Three points:

    1. I think it is a fair point that if "DLC" costs "about as much" as a full box cost then people should expect "about a full game". Same applies to a sub based games; if the monthly sub is 25%" (say) of the full box cost then they should expect "about" 25%" of the original content every month. 

    2. Whether any money is re-invested in the game comes down to the developer / company. WoW's 14 month content holiday is only one example. As far as being a scam purchasing a b2p game is no more of a scam than purchasing a car or a loaf of bread; there is a product and there is a price. Same can be said of sub based games as well by the way. Nothing dictates that a company has to re-invest the money that we pay however that money is paid.

    3.TSW isn't a "b2p" game. May look the same on the surface today but the financial planning behind the game will have been different, the marketing strategy they used, the resource models (including customer support) etc. will all have been different. And one result is that GW2, like GW1, never planned to have "dedicated" customer support; TSW did. SWTOR's expansions btw have been paid DLC - relatively minor DLC as well  - see your first point! 

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     

    The assassin's creed franchise and The Crew disagrees with you. 

     

    Oh, almost forgot. Subscription doesn't mean quality. Plenty of examples. 

    A, if you are going make a rebuttal then have one. The first Assasin's creed cost 24 million to make. How much did the others cost? I bet less than AAA mmo's of  the same time period? No? Yes? I can pull up the skyrim example which does agree with me. It shows that it cost less to develop than a AAA mmo; less than the 100 million. Making back its development cost and then some by far.

    so go ahead, finish your thought.

    B, I never said subscription means quality just as single player or f2p doesn't mean quality or lack thereof. Not sure why you put that there.

    And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...

    Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive. Mostly because most of MMO gameplay consists of repetitive features. The good old gear treadmill or as it is better known carrot on a stick, rehashing and rehashing old content. Slapping new label on it and call it an expansion. And people lose their mind 

    Ok you seem reasonable. And you deal with facts, I like that! How many MMOs you know and you have absolute facts that they went over the 100 mil mark? Star Citizen? Its not even a MMO. Idk if we count GTA V as single player or MMO (given it has MMO aspect). 

    Seriously, 100 mil is a whole lot of money. And prices of housing a MMO go lower each and every year. 

    I honestly don't know how much the AC franchise costs to make, but what I know is that they (after bortherhood) just like GTA V have a multiplayer aspect that until this day are up and running buttery smooth without requiring a subscription. 

    B) My post wasn't addressed just toward you mate. From the majority of people posting in this thread I can clearly see that people confuse subscription with quality. 

     

    P.S: Probably this is an old article but http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games

    It shows that TERA's development was ~50 mil. You can clearly see SP games for the same period going for a lot more. 

    My bottom line is that it is not easy to develop any kind of game. (AAA) Whether it has multiplayer element or not adds little to the cost for a major game studio. 

    Good games pay for their development in the first week. Everything after is a profit. 

    Games seem to have a solid price of ~60$ for the past couple of years. Including MMOs. Slapping a rental fee on those $60 is simply wrong. 

    If bunch of single player games can successfully pull an online world with no cash shop and no subscription, I honestly don't see a reason to pay a sub to someone and not feel cheated.

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,265
    Subs were a viable option 1999-2007 or so, but in 2014 no way......Its pretty much just throwing money away at this point.....I dont even consider any MMOs that use a sub fee anymore, and the list of free games available is in the hundereds.......On the other hand though, most gamers and their money are easily parted.....
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,418
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     
     

    ...snip

    ...snip
    ...snip

    Games seem to have a solid price of ~60$ for the past couple of years. Including MMOs. Slapping a rental fee on those $60 is simply wrong. 

    If bunch of single player games can successfully pull an online world with no cash shop and no subscription, I honestly don't see a reason to pay a sub to someone and not feel cheated.

    Single player games would not use as many packets on the internet if they connected at all. MMO games have to use the server to authenticate actions affecting inventory, movement, and for some the physics of the game itself etc. - anything "server-side" in the game isn't happening on your computers but theirs. This requires internet usage to send back the results of the outcome. Not just to discuss the actions that your character makes but those around you. The more populated the area you are in, either the frequency will increase or the data sent to tell you what all the other players around you are doing in unison with yourself. You need to know too what those players are wearing to know how to show them on the screen.

    Have you ever priced a high speed internet line like OC? They start around 30-50k monthly. So imagine that you choose a 30k plan - at 15 a month you need to have 2k subs just to cover your internet cost. This doesn't count electricity for the servers or those maintaining them or on call for it. In a small setup your co-location would cover the bandwidth but they charge more than they pay, you can assure yourself they want a profit too for their redundant building structures. One of our co-locations has redundancy even up to nuclear attack along with biometrics on the doors, real sci-fi procedures and setups with generators out the wazoo and it isn't free.

    All those packets need to be processed before sent and that creates more server load. Use something more often and it will wear out faster so now you have to replace hardware more often. Just having more hardware running can be problematic. There are rays from space that aren't all taken out from our atmosphere. These cosmic rays are stronger in space appearing in the eyeballs of astronauts while trying to sleep - they went right through the ship and through their eyelids causing splashes of light instead of pure darkness. Some computer specialists blame them on why hard drives fail or lose data sometimes. I tend to believe this because twice when we had hard drive problems as a web hosting company we had multiple drives fail in near unison. All it takes is one bit to flip on a platter and you've got corruption. Run more hardware and the chances of bit flipping are more prevalent especially if you stack your drives which is common in racks but this could just be superstition for me. Some people even say RAM is affected and that ECC isn't a certain panacea.

    Here's some data on stackexchange talking about it. Stack Exchange is where developers talk to other devs and answer questions back and forth. They have some good posts here about how they are different from single player games in lots of areas.

    http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/90/why-is-it-so-hard-to-develop-a-mmo

    I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers without even thinking about the extra work involved in the programming itself or the technical support of finding out why someone can't use the server due to their ISP outages somewhere in the line. That's usually a big topic in tech forums for MMOs, going through the hops to see where things are failing and those are real people talking to you. They don't look like automated bots.

    And yet GW2 manages to do all this complex and expensive stuff for just the box price and a cosmetics shop. It hasn't even charged for new content (yet). So what was the reason for a sub again?

    ....
  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by YashaX

    And yet GW2 manages to do all this complex and expensive stuff for just the box price and a cosmetics shop. It hasn't even charged for new content (yet). So what was the reason for a sub again?

    They have a item cash shop similar to F2P games and they do sell gold for $ as well. 

     

    -----------------------------------------

    Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.

       That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.

    Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies.  (WoW&EVE included).

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,418
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by YashaX

    And yet GW2 manages to do all this complex and expensive stuff for just the box price and a cosmetics shop. It hasn't even charged for new content (yet). So what was the reason for a sub again?

    They have a item cash shop similar to F2P games and they do sell gold for $ as well. 

     

    -----------------------------------------

    Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.

       That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.

    Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies.  (WoW&EVE included).

    GW2 is set up so players have a completely level playing environment where it counts (spvp) and limits the impact from buying power on other aspects of the game as it doesn't have OP gear that is nearly impossible to obtain unless you buy it or grind for a really long time (which is what happens in many f2p games).

     

    I think players do value a level playing field, and there are several competitive online games that are extremely popular that offer that and are f2p. I don't think a sub protects you (any more) from the issue you mentioned, indeed some games are starting to charge a sub for access to the full features of a game and have aggressive p2w features.

     

    Consider that the gap between mmos and single player games is blurring as well, as more games include online components, and with systems like psn providing a networking framework for games. Destiny seems a good example of a hybrid single player/mmo that charges a box price and as far as I know doesn't sell power. I don't think a sub is the answer any more.

     

     

    ....
  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by YashaX
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by YashaX

    And yet GW2 manages to do all this complex and expensive stuff for just the box price and a cosmetics shop. It hasn't even charged for new content (yet). So what was the reason for a sub again?

    They have a item cash shop similar to F2P games and they do sell gold for $ as well. 

     

    -----------------------------------------

    Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.

       That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.

    Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies.  (WoW&EVE included).

    GW2 is set up so players have a completely level playing environment where it counts (spvp) and limits the impact from buying power on other aspects of the game as it doesn't have OP gear that is nearly impossible to obtain unless you buy it or grind for a really long time (which is what happens in many f2p games).

     

    I think players do value a level playing field, and there are several competitive online games that are extremely popular that offer that and are f2p. I don't think a sub protects you (any more) from the issue you mentioned, indeed some games are starting to charge a sub for access to the full features of a game and have aggressive p2w features.

     

    Consider that the gap between mmos and single player games is blurring as well, as more games include online components, and with systems like psn providing a networking framework for games. Destiny seems a good example of a hybrid single player/mmo that charges a box price and as far as I know doesn't sell power. I don't think a sub is the answer any more.

     

     

    Well. "Where is counts" is relative.

    Anyway. I am not planning to play games with microtransactions any more, especially mmorpgs. Even if that means not playing vast quantities of  available games at all.  I find even 'tame' cash shop such as in Path of Exile, (been there played them would not play again)  unbearable.

     

    I don't really care about those hugely popular microtransaction based online games such as LoL or World of Tanks or dozens other either.  I don't play them.

     

    If it comes to that I will stop playing video games completly. I just don't accept whole concept of  RMT, so it is kinda impossible for me to accept any kind of cash shop.

     

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     
     

    ...snip

    ...snip
    ...snip

    Games seem to have a solid price of ~60$ for the past couple of years. Including MMOs. Slapping a rental fee on those $60 is simply wrong. 

    If bunch of single player games can successfully pull an online world with no cash shop and no subscription, I honestly don't see a reason to pay a sub to someone and not feel cheated.

    Single player games would not use as many packets on the internet if they connected at all. MMO games have to use the server to authenticate actions affecting inventory, movement, and for some the physics of the game itself etc. - anything "server-side" in the game isn't happening on your computers but theirs. This requires internet usage to send back the results of the outcome. Not just to discuss the actions that your character makes but those around you. The more populated the area you are in, either the frequency will increase or the data sent to tell you what all the other players around you are doing in unison with yourself. You need to know too what those players are wearing to know how to show them on the screen.

    Have you ever priced a high speed internet line like OC? They start around 30-50k monthly. So imagine that you choose a 30k plan - at 15 a month you need to have 2k subs just to cover your internet cost. This doesn't count electricity for the servers or those maintaining them or on call for it. In a small setup your co-location would cover the bandwidth but they charge more than they pay, you can assure yourself they want a profit too for their redundant building structures. One of our co-locations has redundancy even up to nuclear attack along with biometrics on the doors, real sci-fi procedures and setups with generators out the wazoo and it isn't free.

    All those packets need to be processed before sent and that creates more server load. Use something more often and it will wear out faster so now you have to replace hardware more often. Just having more hardware running can be problematic. There are rays from space that aren't all taken out from our atmosphere. These cosmic rays are stronger in space appearing in the eyeballs of astronauts while trying to sleep - they went right through the ship and through their eyelids causing splashes of light instead of pure darkness. Some computer specialists blame them on why hard drives fail or lose data sometimes. I tend to believe this because twice when we had hard drive problems as a web hosting company we had multiple drives fail in near unison. All it takes is one bit to flip on a platter and you've got corruption. Run more hardware and the chances of bit flipping are more prevalent especially if you stack your drives which is common in racks but this could just be superstition for me. Some people even say RAM is affected and that ECC isn't a certain panacea.

    Here's some data on stackexchange talking about it. Stack Exchange is where developers talk to other devs and answer questions back and forth. They have some good posts here about how they are different from single player games in lots of areas.

    http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/90/why-is-it-so-hard-to-develop-a-mmo

    I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers without even thinking about the extra work involved in the programming itself or the technical support of finding out why someone can't use the server due to their ISP outages somewhere in the line. That's usually a big topic in tech forums for MMOs, going through the hops to see where things are failing and those are real people talking to you. They don't look like automated bots.

    Whatever you are smoking, I want some of it. 

    Hard drive failure is mitigated long ago. People invented RAID arrays. A whole bunch of them

    RAM is affected yes. Do you know how RAM is fixed? Cut the power for a second. 

    Idk how you do it in your webhosting company, but datacenters tend to scale on few hundred of servers, and one going down is not really a thing. 

    Infact, did you know that hard drives fail so often, people invented this thing called hotswap. And real server mainframes support CPU and RAM hotplugging. Bet you didn't know that :P 

    Also, MMO traffic is not that huge. Packets are a lot, but they are only few bytes in length. I've played games on metered traffic and I've created servers. I know the traffic requirements you've listed are a bit exaggerated. 

    Also do you honestly believe that game studio data centers have biometric scanners? Because I'm pretty sure that they aren't. It's a game server. I'm fairly certain they have more centralized systems outside the gaming datacenter for payments and personal information housing. For which you can even rent a datacenter you know. 

    Also read this http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dmaltz/papers/dc-costs-ccr-editorial.pdf

    Networking costs in particular. I like where they state that the price of a mbps per month has went down from 100$ to just 5$. Do the maths onwards. Or strip 2 digits from your approx pricing. Before you call me a liar, this is a Microsoft Research. I would agree with those guys on everything. Sue me.

    All in all, the network equipment is more expensive than the bandwidth it produces. Also keep in mind that this is a cloud computing datacenter. Those are beefed up to house services for millions of people, all day, everyday. (If you do not believe that last statement, pull some public Amazon AWS data) 

    =======

    The article you've given is, first and foremost, 4 year old. Second of all, you can't compare amateurs to professionals. Many posts in your thread assume the team is inexperienced. My opinion is, there is no AAA studio without experienced dev teams.

    Incase you missed it, here is a rather interesting link http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games

    Scroll down until you see TERA Online. 50 mil. Had a sub.

    GTA V - 265 mil to make. Has MMO aspect. Has no sub.

    Back when TERA released, it was one of the most anticipated MMOs. With a lot of people playing. It is F2P for the past couple of years. Just released an expack. 

    Guild Wars 2 is sitting on ~50 mil production cost as well (sadly not in the link i posted above, also it is a rumour)

    All those prices most likely include the building/renting data centers.

    "If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers" - This is why you pay to your ISP. 

    ==========

    If your company really pays $30k, I'd look at another provider really. What amount of traffic does this 30k get you? 

    Justify the sub all you want. There are far more expensive games than MMOs, with more players than MMOs (E.g. League of Legends, Dota 2, Hearthstone) and they do not require a subscription fee. Period.

     

    P.S: Let's not compare indy games to MMOs. Compare AAA titles to AAA MMOs. And you'll see your argument falling flat on its face,. 

  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796

    Not to worry, wow may just do it again, not give people a year with no update still people pay in $15 for it, if was less I can understand as server do cost money to run, but they going rank more money maybe a new mount in there cash shop few million more.  And top of that pay for are new expansion give us more of your money.

    F2p, B2p, or sub even way people get sucker in to pay out more, welcome to max profit.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     
     

    ...snip

    ...snip
    ...snip

    Games seem to have a solid price of ~60$ for the past couple of years. Including MMOs. Slapping a rental fee on those $60 is simply wrong. 

    If bunch of single player games can successfully pull an online world with no cash shop and no subscription, I honestly don't see a reason to pay a sub to someone and not feel cheated.

    Single player games would not use as many packets on the internet if they connected at all. MMO games have to use the server to authenticate actions affecting inventory, movement, and for some the physics of the game itself etc. - anything "server-side" in the game isn't happening on your computers but theirs. This requires internet usage to send back the results of the outcome. Not just to discuss the actions that your character makes but those around you. The more populated the area you are in, either the frequency will increase or the data sent to tell you what all the other players around you are doing in unison with yourself. You need to know too what those players are wearing to know how to show them on the screen.

    Have you ever priced a high speed internet line like OC? They start around 30-50k monthly. So imagine that you choose a 30k plan - at 15 a month you need to have 2k subs just to cover your internet cost. This doesn't count electricity for the servers or those maintaining them or on call for it. In a small setup your co-location would cover the bandwidth but they charge more than they pay, you can assure yourself they want a profit too for their redundant building structures. One of our co-locations has redundancy even up to nuclear attack along with biometrics on the doors, real sci-fi procedures and setups with generators out the wazoo and it isn't free.

    All those packets need to be processed before sent and that creates more server load. Use something more often and it will wear out faster so now you have to replace hardware more often. Just having more hardware running can be problematic. There are rays from space that aren't all taken out from our atmosphere. These cosmic rays are stronger in space appearing in the eyeballs of astronauts while trying to sleep - they went right through the ship and through their eyelids causing splashes of light instead of pure darkness. Some computer specialists blame them on why hard drives fail or lose data sometimes. I tend to believe this because twice when we had hard drive problems as a web hosting company we had multiple drives fail in near unison. All it takes is one bit to flip on a platter and you've got corruption. Run more hardware and the chances of bit flipping are more prevalent especially if you stack your drives which is common in racks but this could just be superstition for me. Some people even say RAM is affected and that ECC isn't a certain panacea.

    Here's some data on stackexchange talking about it. Stack Exchange is where developers talk to other devs and answer questions back and forth. They have some good posts here about how they are different from single player games in lots of areas.

    http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/90/why-is-it-so-hard-to-develop-a-mmo

    I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers without even thinking about the extra work involved in the programming itself or the technical support of finding out why someone can't use the server due to their ISP outages somewhere in the line. That's usually a big topic in tech forums for MMOs, going through the hops to see where things are failing and those are real people talking to you. They don't look like automated bots.

    ...snip

    Idk how you do it in your webhosting company, but datacenters tend to scale on few hundred of servers, and one going down is not really a thing. 

    Infact, did you know that hard drives fail so often, people invented this thing called hotswap. And real server mainframes support CPU and RAM hotplugging. Bet you didn't know that :P 

    Also, MMO traffic is not that huge. Packets are a lot, but they are only few bytes in length. I've played games on metered traffic and I've created servers. I know the traffic requirements you've listed are a bit exaggerated. 

    Also do you honestly believe that game studio data centers have biometric scanners? Because I'm pretty sure that they aren't. It's a game server. I'm fairly certain they have more centralized systems outside the gaming datacenter for payments and personal information housing. For which you can even rent a datacenter you know. 

    ...snip

    This is all like super-good stuff. Honestly, I once worked for an eCommerce solution provider who was pretty big, pushing like half a billion a year in transactions, millions of hits daily, etc., etc. and our server costs were about $15k monthly. Oh, and that's also 7 or 8 years ago now, so the costs were much more costly. Oh, and that was the cost for an entire server farm. We didn't host a damn thing, though, didn't maintain it, didn't have to pay for any hardware, didn't need to pay for monitoring. It was all hosted in some super-secret broke-ass warehouse looking place in NJ where the security was probably greater than Ft. Knox. I'd be willing to bet that you could get a very viable solution these days, for a gaming server, in the neighbourhood of 5-8k/month. Oh, and if you're not making that monthly with your game, then it's probably time to throw in the towel anyway. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,870
    Originally posted by greenreen
     

    I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers

    No one will argue that there is a cost the issue is that it is not $15/month; obviously the number of subscribers is a factor but $1/year should be more than enough for the hosting element.

     

     

  • BainSamrynBainSamryn Member UncommonPosts: 20

    Subscription is more more practical for come gamer and more affordable . F2P and B2W usually fall in the same catagory  and in the long run you pay more than subscription based . One does not realize a abit here and there will be way more than a subscription . Can any one afford this sort of gaming in the long run . Not to mention f2p is current trend but what are the long term  implications . F2p works if done right but its way more expensive on the average gamer and you thyink its cheaper when some games dont have the reveneue stream on such models .

     

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852

    Interesting comments, opinions, interpretations and sub-discussions about economics and business.

    But in the end, as a player, as a consumer of games, as a fan of MMOs and MMORPGs

    My choice will be SUB first when compared to all the negative experience and downsides and hassle of F2P games.

    And provided, we actually have that choice.

    With a Sub, the mind is at rest, that next patch will not rip off yet again something from the game and place it in the shop because the CEO asked for a 5% Quarterly profit increase in the last Meeting.

    That is the problem with F2P games in my opinion they are not driven by "hey lets make the game better and more fun" by Game developers and designers, they are rather driven by Financial reports and Administrators.

    I do not want a 50 slot inventory anymore which I can buy expansion Tickets to make bigger.

    I want to start my character and have a 500+ Inventory. Unhindered by limitations intentionally implemented to support a F2P model.

    And I prefer to pay a sub for it and just play the game and find what I find and sell what I sell and keep and not break my head and deal with the frustration of the intentional limitations of a F2P game.

    it is not fun..as simple as that.

    And that is the most important aspect I believe here. 

    I come to play an MMO to have fun, is anyone actually making one with the intent to provide fun?

    Fun should be the driving force of a game's design, but it seems now Monetization is the driving force.

     

    Look at EQLandmark...a glorified Minecraft that has been Monetized in a specific Platform... but that is not what made Minecraft's popularity. Freedom is what made it, freedom to be creative, not limits nor boundaries or parameters of a platform. A shop to sell one; creations is not what made Minecraft popular nor the limit of Landscape and having to buy more plots of land.

    I would rather play in a Huge Hosted Server of Minecraft as is with a Sub than a F2P EQLandmark with all these limitations.

    So the biggest problem for me has been the quality of the experience the quality of the gameplay the quality of the fun, which has plumetted with F2P because of all the limitations.

    How much more Fun is Uncharted Waters Online in Japan with the SUB compared to its International F2P counterpart. The difference is astonishing.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by Sulaa

     

    -----------------------------------------

    Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.

       That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.

    Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies.  (WoW&EVE included).

    If you want to be RMT free, you don't need to have a sub to do that .. box games can do that.

    Look at D3 .. it is always online, and all the MP games are practical the same as dungeon instances in a MMO .. and it does not to charge a sub.

    Plus, you are right .. i am not valued a RMT-free game. There are plenty of fun games with RMT .. marvel heroes, warframe, .... and i have no issue if some whales want to subsidize a free portion of the game for me.

     

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,912
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     

    And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...

    Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.

    It seems that lately they are.

    SWToR was said to cost 200 million.

    According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/15/a-look-at-game-budgets-and-mmo-budgets/

    But again, let's do the math.

    It's not just about mmo's costing x, but that they cost x and are sold to "y" mount of players.

    So, the secret world sold 400k units which is 24 million dollars. It cost 50 million to develop.

    http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-big-video-game-1501413649

    http://evilasahobby.com/2012/08/11/the-secret-world-half-as-successful-as-conan/

    so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?

    If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?

    That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.

    Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.

     




  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
     

    And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...

    Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.

    Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.

    Think it was ~57 mil profit (after the costs). That didn't stop people for screaming the game is dying xD Wish my company was making 50 mil in 4 months. Oh well. 

    And yeah some MMOs really go over the top. SWTOR and TESO are the best examples of that. And even after all this funding they still had botched launches. And asked players for subs. Gw2 had none of that, and the game is profiting. 

    Plus you make a good point. MMOs don't have as many sales as a good AAA SP title. I can agree and disagree with this statement because it really varies from game to game. But generally speaking, that rental fee seriously pushes people away. I like to own the stuff i pay for. Sub games do not give me that feeling. And I'm sure many people agree. Gw2's initial sales showed just that. Sure, the game had massive hype train, and pre-order locked beta. That doesn't change the fact that the game is good and earned all its money by providing good entertainment. 

    GTA V online is the same

    The Crew, always online, no SP campaign racing game in a huge open world with real people, still no subs. 

    Those are online, massive games, with the same costs and requirements as other MMOs. 

    I'm sorry, I just don't see how a sub is justified. 4 month sub is equal to a brand new game. 

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,859


    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
    Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?
    Sorry if my thoughts have already been aired, probably better than I will here :)

    First off, ask those "other people" how many minutes they use their phone in order "to feel they are getting their moneys worth" or how many hours of TV they watch in order to "justify" their cable bill. If they say, "Those are utilities and are different, remind them TV is entertainment and cell phones are basically mobile games now. Then throw in NetFlix and GameFly for good measure. That "logic" is deeply flawed in my opinion :)

    Secondly, and to your question, No. Why take away some players' preferred method of payment? Just because some players do not like it? Well, hell. I do not like chilli peppers. Maybe we should ban their use? Or better yet, cash shops and F2P games, which I despise.

    No, choices are usually a good thing. The only reason players want some choice taken away is because they fear that their own preference will be taken away, so they want any alternative banned so that no other choice but their preference is available. This is truly a show of entitlement wanting EVERY GAME to be what they prefer.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...

    Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.

    It seems that lately they are.

    SWToR was said to cost 200 million.

    According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/15/a-look-at-game-budgets-and-mmo-budgets/

    But again, let's do the math.

    It's not just about mmo's costing x, but that they cost x and are sold to "y" mount of players.

    So, the secret world sold 400k units which is 24 million dollars. It cost 50 million to develop.

    http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-big-video-game-1501413649

    http://evilasahobby.com/2012/08/11/the-secret-world-half-as-successful-as-conan/

    so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?

    If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?

    That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.

    Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.

    Anyone who thinks that MMOs are not expensive to make needs a massive reality check. They are easily the most expensive type of game you can attempt to make. Sometimes they get topped by certain single player games that blow a massive budget on licensing and marketting, but that's the exception.

    That said it is possible to make an MMO for a lot cheaper, but it's going to look / play like a game that's from 10-15 yrs ago. It's also going to have less than half the features people on these forums seem to claim every MMO should have to be a real game. Make it cheap enough, and it may actually be able to make some money. But probably still wouldn't be worth the effort.

  • ZzadZzad Member UncommonPosts: 1,401
    Originally posted by bcbully
    No f2p should go away. Sub prices should vary. 5, 10, 15, 20 ect.

    Totally agree on this.

    I rather pay a sub than have to deal with those atrociuos cash shops & cash-locked content.

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