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Should the subscription model go away?

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
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  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433

    Given the fact most MMOs have 10+ year runs (with several going longer than that) a 7 year run would be pretty poor. The license runs out in 2017, so we'll have to wait and see if WB decides to keep LOTRO going past then.

    But, frankly? Most companies -expect- their MMOs to go a decade, at least, if not more.  If F2P allows for that game to stay open and profitable, of course those companies are going to go that route. Since WoW became the behemoth it is, MMOs are no longer niche and companies (and share holders) will not settle for a few hundred thousand subs.  If WoW had never come along, I don't doubt LOTRO would never have gone F2P and Turbine been happy with 100-200k subs or so.

    But that's not what happened. And so, yeah? Frankly...f2p did save a lot of decent games from a premature death. WoW changed the market and the expectations of that market.

    But your argument was pretty strawman there to begin with. Look, I'm not bashing LOTRO. It's a good game. But it -had- to go f2p at some point, in this market, to keep competitive and keep its share holders and "big guy upstairs" (WB) happy about not pulling the plug in this new "we want HUGE sub numbers -or- a HUGE profit margin" MMO industry.

    There' s no shame in that. It doesn't mean LOTRO deserves to die, it just means the game had to do something in the wake of WoW to survive. It did. Kudos to them.

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,088

    If they feel they are forced to play,then it obviously is not offering any FUN value because at 50 cents a day,i would hardly call that being forced,that would be a VERY sad argument.

    Our internet costs far exceed that,so it would be like saying we should not pay for internet because we feel like we are being forced to use it all the time.Mt internet costs me 89 bucks a month that is what 6x any game sub fee and the internet alone by itself offers nothing more than a connection status,games offer a million x more value.

    My stand on the issue is do away with cheap free gaming,i want to weed out all those crap games,the market is flooded with that junk,i rather see even just 5 games in total than all that other stuff i would not pay to play.

    There is actually ONE reason and one only for allowing junk free games and is to allow a platform so that new developers can ply their trade,i mean they need feedback and to actually put their game out there to learn,so from that point it is ok.However as it is now,those low end developers are not trying to improve or take feedback as they claim,they are simply trying to make profit from whatever budget they can afford,it is NOT about QUALITY gaming for them,just a business.

    Now there are some Indie guys not making any money at all,basically on life support,for them there is some passion no doubt but for many of these it is all about profiting from little value.Example the Gorgon lead is passionate,he loves his game and ideas however it would be a far cry to say his game is of the same quality as sub based games because it is not and neither are ANY of the cash shop games out there.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807
    Originally posted by bcbully
    No f2p should go away. Sub prices should vary. 5, 10, 15, 20 ect.

    Players have been telling this to FunCom for years.

  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791

    P2P defenders are so clueless, it's not even funny.

    Why do you think I can't P2W in  <insert favorite MMO here>?

    There are TONS of gold selling websites

    They also sell developed characters with all the soul/character bound gear you can get. 

    With maximum enchants and buckets of gold. 

    Beating you would come down to few thousand dollars and pressing F1. (Depending on how popular the game is)

     

    Not to mention that some of you are clueless jerks who just run their mouth when they have nothing better to do. Going lengths at saying that Gw2's cash shop is P2W. Yeah right ....

     

    P.S: It's not even few thousand dollars. Back in the day in Lineage 2 I was buying boss jewelry from eBay for couple bucks. That was an year or so before I joined an alliance that could actually pull the grandbosses, which would drop just 1-3 jewels for hundreds of players participating in the raid. Lineage 2 was a sub game at the time, and i was a kid with lots of free time and mom and dad's credit cards at my disposal. Yeah, you just have to suck it up because I was able to pull out a 12vs2 and win. Paying the regular 15$/mo. fee, of course, like everyone else ;) Overly geared paladins were quite the big deal. 

    Same thing was happening in WoW. I had a friend who was leveling toons to lvl 60 in a week and selling the said toon. That's how he made all his income. He sold Diablo 2 rare items who he farmed with a bot. 

    You just have to beat it in your thick skulls. There is always a way to P2W. Whether it is against the EULA or not, is of no concern. Who reads those EULAs anyway, right? If you have deep pockets and passion to be the best, there is always a way. 

     

    In the end quality trumps business model. If the game has quality, it will earn money, regardless of business model. 

    I personally would love it if all games could be B2P, latest examples being TSW, Gw2 and The Crew. Everything outside this business model is a cash grab cover up IMO. Subs are a lie. F2P is not really F2P. Freemium is neither free neither premium. 

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
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  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by KaitarBesh

    Given the fact most MMOs have 10+ year runs (with several going longer than that) a 7 year run would be pretty poor. The license runs out in 2017, so we'll have to wait and see if WB decides to keep LOTRO going past then.

    But, frankly? Most companies -expect- their MMOs to go a decade, at least, if not more.  If F2P allows for that game to stay open and profitable, of course those companies are going to go that route. Since WoW became the behemoth it is, MMOs are no longer niche and companies (and share holders) will not settle for a few hundred thousand subs.  If WoW had never come along, I don't doubt LOTRO would never have gone F2P and Turbine been happy with 100-200k subs or so.

    But that's not what happened. And so, yeah? Frankly...f2p did save a lot of decent games from a premature death. WoW changed the market and the expectations of that market.

    But your argument was pretty strawman there to begin with. Look, I'm not bashing LOTRO. It's a good game. But it -had- to go f2p at some point, in this market, to keep competitive and keep its share holders and "big guy upstairs" (WB) happy about not pulling the plug in this new "we want HUGE sub numbers -or- a HUGE profit margin" MMO industry.

    There' s no shame in that. It doesn't mean LOTRO deserves to die, it just means the game had to do something in the wake of WoW to survive. It did. Kudos to them.

    No there's nothing strawman about facts. I posted to you a quote from the people behind the scenes saying there were not problems in the game when they converted. Your response has been, well there would be problems now and "jeebus free to play" saved us from that yet in your first message you mentioned that you think there are problems growing now. I'm dealing with truth, you are making up things that didn't happen.

    Again - LOTRO did not need to go free to play to save it because it wasn't hurting. What they've done since can't be attributed to the sub model. If you find any issue with the game, you have to attribute it to the free to play model when you design an argument around the payment model being the issue. I don't consider supposition about what "could have been", there is only "what has been". It's unreasonable to say things would be worse had the game been subscription based because that's based on carnival palm reading. It didn't happen that way so you are not privy to what would have happened. Nor can it form a valid discussion point since it's just making up stuff that didn't happen.

    You really, really think it's carnival palm reading, when all you have to do is look at ...oh....pretty much every MMO except a whole 3? (all of them newer releases at that, and not even necessarily doing that great themselves) to know that LOTRO -would have- been in trouble had it NOT gone f2p and would have likely shut down sooner rather than later?

    Really?

    I'm pretty sure Turbine saw it coming waaaaaaaaay down the road, in trouble at the time or not. They saw the potential for more income than they would get versus subs, and they went f2p.  LOTRO may or MAY NOT be in trouble now, depending on which rumors you choose to believe, but I have no doubt in my mind that had it NOT gone to a f2p conversion, it probably wouldn't have survived even this long. That's why, oh, 90% of the MMOs on the market are now f2p in the post WoW world. They can't compete in the p2p market to the expectations of the share holders who want that magic WoW profit margin and don't understand it was a fluke. Doesn't matter to them. They want it.  That' s not rocket science, that's simple observation of the way things have been going the past decade.

    At this point, you say I'm assuming LOTRO would be gone had it stayed P2P (and yep, you'd be right, I do think it would have had the plug pulled or been doing even worse than it is now). But -you- are assuming, in return, that it never needed to go F2P to survive and it would have been fine as P2P.

    Ok, well, one of us is right and one of us is wrong. 

    We are probably not going to agree here. So I'm just going to let you continue to argue with yourself if that's what you want to do. Meanwhile,  like it or not, f2p is not going anywhere. It's just not. Investors have seen the kind of profit it can potentially turn and that's what they want. So there it is. In 10 more years we may see an entirely new type of MMO play option or a return to sub based, or pay by time, or b2p may become the standard...but for now and the forseeable future? F2P is it. I never said it was a good thing or a bad thing, I simply said it has breathed life into several games that probably would have been in their grave, undeservedly from a gamer standpoint, (though not, probably, from an investor's standpoint) had they NOT converted.

    Disagree with me? Well oh well.  Market seems to back up my theory far more than yours, despite an obscure years old quote by turbine to make it sound like everything was just peachy when they knew full well they had to do something in WoW's shadow to carve out their own niche in a new and evolving MMO market.

    /shrug

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
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  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Aaand the truth comes out.

    You weren't in this thread to talk about whether sub games should be around.

    You came to tell us that free to play is better.

    Oh and call things strawmen when rewriting history won't suffice or fool them.

    Fingers to eyes > fingers to you > fingers back to eyes. I got it. It's clear now.

    Yeah so anyway - whoever has an opinion on SUBSCRIPTION games, please continue.

    Subscription is a lie. The updates are not continuous. Not all content content comes with the subscription (E.g. you have to purchase an expack), server housing is really not that expensive nowadays, neither is managing. And in no way it stops the P2W crowd. 

    What it does is keep players away, because lets face it, not many want to pay a box and a sub fee to find out that they've been scammed. 

    Subscription does not equal quality either (E.g. DFUW, and we all saw TESO's launch)

    Game studios can survive on box sells alone. And survive well. Even with low populations. 

     

    I hope this is explanation enough for you. Modern day subscriptions are plain and simple cash grab. 

    Idk if F2P/Freemium is the future, but subscription based anything is history.

     

    P.S: League of Legends probably has more expenses on servers than WoW. It can be played with 0$ investment. And it will still earn money. Hell, even Hearthstone probably requires just about the same server power that WoW requires to host all those players. 

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,068
    Originally posted by Leon1e
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Aaand the truth comes out.

    You weren't in this thread to talk about whether sub games should be around.

    You came to tell us that free to play is better.

    Oh and call things strawmen when rewriting history won't suffice or fool them.

    Fingers to eyes > fingers to you > fingers back to eyes. I got it. It's clear now.

    Yeah so anyway - whoever has an opinion on SUBSCRIPTION games, please continue.

    Subscription is a lie. The updates are not continuous. Not all content content comes with the subscription (E.g. you have to purchase an expack), server housing is really not that expensive nowadays, neither is managing. And in no way it stops the P2W crowd. 

    What it does is keep players away, because lets face it, not many want to pay a box and a sub fee to find out that they've been scammed. 

    Subscription does not equal quality either (E.g. DFUW, and we all saw TESO's launch)

    Game studios can survive on box sells alone. And survive well. Even with low populations. 

     

    I hope this is explanation enough for you. Modern day subscriptions are plain and simple cash grab. 

    Idk if F2P/Freemium is the future, but subscription based anything is history.

     

    P.S: League of Legends probably has more expenses on servers than WoW. It can be played with 0$ investment. And it will still earn money. Hell, even Hearthstone probably requires just about the same server power that WoW requires to host all those players. 

    Leon1e has it right. There were some really crap games out there for sub. Also, with WoW, for example, you still have the buy the expansion BEFORE you can play it and there is a sub plus a CS. So, many sub games are doing the same as F2P games.

    It seems the only sub games that are surviving are the ones that were the only ones in town at the time WoW and EVE come to mind. People have so much time and money invested in them, they will not leave these games. That is why they are surviving.

    That said, sub games, unless they offer cheaper subs, will not survive. I can get HULU sub for 10 USD per month and I can WATCH ANYTHING they have. With a game sub, all you are paying for is that game. I think more needs to be thrown in, like all games from the publisher, as an example, or people will look as subs as just a waste of money.

    The biggest trend is Kickstarter games where they tell you nothing and people throw money down the rat hole because a certain person or persons are developing the game. Another trend is PAYING for ALPHA testing - even for a F2P game is really just a cash grab.

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    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Yeah so anyway - whoever has an opinion on SUBSCRIPTION games, please continue.

    with fun free games like marvel heroes, PoE and warframe, why would i ever want to play a game with a sub?

    B2P ... probably, not unlike single player game ... but putting $15 a month for a single game? I can get 1-2 NEW games on steam sales for $15 each month.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
       Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. 
     
       Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.  
     
     
     
       So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?

    Had to check the date on the OP's post because I thought this was a necro'd thread from 2010 ! image

     

    OP, you're so far behind the curve you're almost back in fashion. The "Great P2P Revolt" was yesterday's news. We're almost at the start of the "Great F2P Revolt" where monthly subs will be heralded as the saviour of the genre, lol

  • DestaiDestai Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
       Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. 
     
       Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.  
     
     
     
       So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?

    No. Is it archaic? In some ways, but not every iteration the market churns out is ideal. The f2p is a travesty and has ruined immersion in many games for me. I'd rather feel like I have to play a game than have to pay every step along the way to enjoy the game. The key word is enjoy. Sure, some games are playable without paying much. Sure, you can spend time looking at ways to maximize your dollars in the game. Or, you can pay a sub and get the whole game. I look at WoW, Wildstar, FF14, Lineage, AC, FF11, ESO, Wildstar, and I see games with large worlds and content. I look at games like Guild Wars 2 and I see games that are backpack simulators. Subscriptions should remain and those that cannot sustain the model should go away. Make a good game worth playing and people will pay for it. The whole problem is there are too many games, and too many sub games post-WoW that rushed in like lemmings without consideration as to what made a game successful. 

  • Cramit845Cramit845 Member UncommonPosts: 395

        I would agree with the majority here that it shouldn't go anywhere.  Each payment model has it's place in my view I love the F2P, sub and B2P models.  I love the F2P because it allows me to try the game first.  Although in the other categories you typically almost always have an option to do a trial before you make a purchase.  Not at launch probably but if you want to try it at launch you should be up to making the purchase or waiting till they start offering a trial of some sort.

        Personally as I do love all models that doesn't mean that they don't have their drawbacks.  I can't stand F2P titles for one specific reason and that's all the Gold sellers, botters and hackers.  The F2P model and hybrids that have a F2P option have this issue every time and so far no dev has figured out how to correct it properly, IMO.  It's something that can possibly always be a problem since once an account is permabanned, that same user can just make another account and continue.

        However the other models have issues as well.  For instance, not being able to try the game first unless a trial is offered is an issue IMO.  You can watch all the gameplay videos you want but you'll never know if a game is for you until you actually try it and if you either don't have the money or don't want to risk the money than the game not having a trial of some sort is a huge issue.

        In the end, none of the models should go away but they do need to be worked on to over come some of their short comings if possible.  Time will tell if folks figure out the "perfect payment model" but until that happens having a bunch of different options is always a good thing.  Variety is the spice of life, as they say.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,418

    For those of you who love to pay a subscription- what do you think is wrong with b2p with a yearly paid expansion and a cosmetic cash shop/dlc? That seems to be the kind of thing Destiny is doing, and while not a full-fledged mmo, it is similar in many ways and I think it is doing well financially.

     

    Is it just that you like giving your money away or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to paying a sub?

    ....
  • DestaiDestai Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by YashaX

    For those of you who love to pay a subscription- what do you think is wrong with b2p with a yearly paid expansion and a cosmetic cash shop/dlc? That seems to be the kind of thing Destiny is doing, and while not a full-fledged mmo, it is similar in many ways and I think it is doing well financially.

     

    Is it just that you like giving your money away or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to paying a sub?

    That's perfectly fine. Paying to unlock every bit of fun in a game is not. 

     

    Is just that you like being duped into spending money through cleverly designed marketed in f2p or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to f2p?

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    I am not gonna play MMORPG with microtransactions/cash shop anymore. 

     

    Yes, I don't like cosmetics for $ as well.  After I get into a game, cosmetics become similarly important like stats or conveniene stuff.

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,338

    i don't care for payment model anymore

    I don't care if game  P2P,B2P,P2W(f2p)... if game is fun for me i ll play & spend my money

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • boxsndboxsnd Member UncommonPosts: 438
    I personally can't play subscription games any more. It feels like I'm renting a game and not that I own it. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I much prefer the F2P and B2P models, even with cash shops (as long as they are not P2W).

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by YashaX

    For those of you who love to pay a subscription- what do you think is wrong with b2p with a yearly paid expansion and a cosmetic cash shop/dlc? That seems to be the kind of thing Destiny is doing, and while not a full-fledged mmo, it is similar in many ways and I think it is doing well financially.

     

    Is it just that you like giving your money away or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to paying a sub?

    That's perfectly fine. Paying to unlock every bit of fun in a game is not. 

     

    Is just that you like being duped into spending money through cleverly designed marketed in f2p or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to f2p?

    Is it that the same of sub? paying to unlock every thing to even to play the game, b2p are good, as long don't come down each week asking for money.

  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by YashaX

    For those of you who love to pay a subscription- what do you think is wrong with b2p with a yearly paid expansion and a cosmetic cash shop/dlc? That seems to be the kind of thing Destiny is doing, and while not a full-fledged mmo, it is similar in many ways and I think it is doing well financially.

     

    Is it just that you like giving your money away or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to paying a sub?

    The payment-model itself is never an issue. its always the cash shop and possible side effects. One major issue is the development shift from content to cash shop. The other issue for me (includes cosmetics) is that it is my personal opinion that a character should reflect the things a player accomplished within the game and not how much he spent on the shop. What could work for me is a B2P game and a shop limited to services(name change, appearance change,...) and content packs(if done right).

  • midnitewolfmidnitewolf Member UncommonPosts: 64

    I honestly wish more games would go back to this model.  Honestly aside from the fact that I don't have to spend $60 for the box (something that turns me off on the subscription model), just to try the game to see if it is worth subscribing too, I hate F2P games because generally they are anything but free.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I understand a company has to make money but generally F2P goes well beyond only having to spend more for convienence and  I have to spend significant money to actually enjoy the game.  That being said, I would rather just spend $15/mo and get access to all my mounts, bank space, inventory space, etc just for playing the game.

     

    Alternatively, I guess a hybrid F2P/Subscription model would be fine as well as long as Subbing gets me full access to everything while allowing a non-subscriber to just bit and piece stuff together as the want but it seriously can't be like Neverwinter where I can only get a Howler for Zen, it has to be available for in game gold if I am a subscriber (None of this controlled astral diamond crap either, I need to be able to earn in game currency just for enjoying the game my way).

     

     

  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424
    Originally posted by Viper482
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
       Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. 
     
       Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.  
     
     
     
       So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?

    Free to play is a plague on this genre, period. All MMOs should be buy to play like GW2 (even that is questionable to me) or subscription models. I just hate the community fre to play conjures.

    +1

     

    I have never played a F2P game for very long.  The community in F2P games is extremely toxic, and the community is the whole reason to play an MMO.  If you don't want a community why not just play an RPG then lol.  If you look at ArcheAge, I don't like the P2W model, but even worse is the community.  Several times while playing, I had people camping the Nui Statues making it so people couldn't play at all, until they ported out.  Luckily you can't fight around the statues, but still it's ridiculous how many times I saw it.  If a zone is red in AA, you pretty much are stuck for 2 hours doing nothing unless you're 50 and paid to win.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by YashaX

    For those of you who love to pay a subscription- what do you think is wrong with b2p with a yearly paid expansion and a cosmetic cash shop/dlc? That seems to be the kind of thing Destiny is doing, and while not a full-fledged mmo, it is similar in many ways and I think it is doing well financially.

    Is it just that you like giving your money away or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to paying a sub?

    That's perfectly fine. Paying to unlock every bit of fun in a game is not. 

    Is just that you like being duped into spending money through cleverly designed marketed in f2p or is there some reasoning behind your attachment to f2p?

    Honestly you're doing the same either way.

    Playing a subscription model for a year is roughly as much money as buying 4 games. And yet, almost never is it the case that an MMO releases with an Xpac within the first year. At best we usually get minor content updates, the except (at least in recent years) being FFXIVARR.

    Now think about this for a minute, if you were to take that same 10-15$ / month and direct it towards a decent F2P game, how much of the content would be locked from you? The answer is not much, if any. In any of the reasonably setup F2P games you can unlock everything you'd want, and then some. The exceptions being with consumables. However the better F2P games either don't have consumables, or they don't really affect gameplay.

    So basically, the difference (from our point of view) is that F2P is a selective payment model. We are more conscious of our spending, and thus get a choice of what we want to spend money on. With subscription models you can pay just as much if not more than a F2P game, but many have it paid off behind the scenes. Out of sight- out of mind. So it doesn't feel as bad as paying for something in a cash shop. Even if the result is identical.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,796
    Originally posted by Khayotix
    Originally posted by bcbully
    No f2p should go away. Sub prices should vary. 5, 10, 15, 20 ect.

    now I don't normally get caught up in these discussions as I am a huge proponent of Subs ONLY. However I totally agree with BCbully. F2P needs to go away! I have played over 50 F2P games and it has proven that those games are nothing but shells designed to steal our money even P2P mmo's that converted, have ended up crossing the horrible threshold of P2W. Instead the idea of Sub prices varying is a great solution!

     

     

    Agreed.

    I hate F2P.

     

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