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P2W vs Cheating

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  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175
    Originally posted by shawn01
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Bunch of philosophers here at MMORPG.COM   *rolls eyes*   How would P2W be cheating? Assuming that the service was bought through a legit cash shop. Only those that are unable or unwilling to pay would assert that it is cheating. All they are doing is being butt hurt. Sorry guys, but you sound like whiners. Don't like the game model. Don't play.   Now, I do believe that the F2P game market actually steals from the consumer. But, no matter how much I try the only folks that will listen to my rants are my fellow economics classmates and professors. The rest of the gaming populace, well they remind me of the "Take my money!" Fry meme.    Protip: ANYTHING done within the confines of any game, is fair. As long as it isn't outside of TOS. Whether you believe it is "cheating" or not is rather moot.   TTFN

    While technically its not cheating its lame every way you look at it. Thats why P2W games like ArchAge have an extremely short lifespan.

     

    To say that people are butt hurt because they dont like pay to win is ignorant.

     

    Protip: if you are ok with cash shops you very likely are NOT a pro of any sort.

    In my second full paragraph I clearly state that I believe that the F2P model is designed to steal from the consumer. Google "Perfectly Price Discriminating Monopoly"

    I said, paraphrasing here, "It isn't cheating because it is part of the game's model", "If you play said game, then complain about the model, you are being butthurt".

     

    Protip: Reading comprehension is cool.

     

     

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664

    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period.

     

    The issue here is not whether Cash Shops are cheating or not.  It is whether P4F gamers should be expected to pay for their game time.  The concept of P2W stems from the idea of not paying for anything and getting everything in the game for free.  The P4F gamers are not entitled to win, or have the Best In Slot (BiS) items.  Their belief that they are entitled is the only imbalance in games.  If they intend to P4F, then they should expect to always lose at PvP over and over again.  That is the free game experience they are not paying for.  To be cannon fodder for the paying customers.

    P4F is not meant to be fun, and it doesn’t entitle them to balanced game play or mechanics. P4F allows them to see if the game will run on their rig, and see if the game world and general mechanics are to their satisfaction.  Before they are expected to start paying for for their game time.

    If the P4F gamer tries the game and sees that the world community is a dog.  The crafting is non-existent or unchallenging.  The world is too confining and not worth exploring.  The PvE and / or the PvP just doesn’t cut it.  Then the P4F gamer can leave.  The P4F gamer and the gamer maker haven’t lost a thing.  But if the P4F gamers finds the game entertaining and decided to stay and not pay.  Then the gamer maker has lost money, that they will never get from the P4F gamers.  And that is cheating, both the gamer maker and the paying community.  The paying community is challenged with overpaying to compensate for the lost money caused by the P4F gamers.  The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by Rattenmann
    Thinking about it,... they are pretty identical for me.   Cheaters use means to gain an advantage that is against the COMPANYS understanding of "rules". Goldbuyer use means to gain an advantage that is against my PLAYER understanding of "rules".   In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.
    • Not paying for their game time by using the cash shop is against the COMPANIES and PAYING CUSTOMERS understanding of “rules” and is the only issue that matters.
    • Any perceived disadvantage is the extent of game play that P4F gamers are entitled too.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • Cramit845Cramit845 Member UncommonPosts: 395
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period.   The issue here is not whether Cash Shops are cheating or not.  It is whether P4F gamers should be expected to pay for their game time.  The concept of P2W stems from the idea of not paying for anything and getting everything in the game for free.  The P4F gamers are not entitled to win, or have the Best In Slot (BiS) items.  Their belief that they are entitled is the only imbalance in games.  If they intend to P4F, then they should expect to always lose at PvP over and over again.  That is the free game experience they are not paying for.  To be cannon fodder for the paying customers.
    P4F is not meant to be fun, and it doesn’t entitle them to balanced game play or mechanics. P4F allows them to see if the game will run on their rig, and see if the game world and general mechanics are to their satisfaction.  Before they are expected to start paying for for their game time.
    If the P4F gamer tries the game and sees that the world community is a dog.  The crafting is non-existent or unchallenging.  The world is too confining and not worth exploring.  The PvE and / or the PvP just doesn’t cut it.  Then the P4F gamer can leave.  The P4F gamer and the gamer maker haven’t lost a thing.  But if the P4F gamers finds the game entertaining and decided to stay and not pay.  Then the gamer maker has lost money, that they will never get from the P4F gamers.  And that is cheating, both the gamer maker and the paying community.  The paying community is challenged with overpaying to compensate for the lost money caused by the P4F gamers.  The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

      I get your point here, but I question what happens when you put your explanation against a game that has a sub and a cash shop or is B2P with a cash shop?  Then you have no real footing cause everyone is paying for the game at that point.  Are all players expected to purchase off the cash shop as well as pay their sub and/or the price of the box?

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,180
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period.   The issue here is not whether Cash Shops are cheating or not.  It is whether P4F gamers should be expected to pay for their game time.  The concept of P2W stems from the idea of not paying for anything and getting everything in the game for free.  The P4F gamers are not entitled to win, or have the Best In Slot (BiS) items.  Their belief that they are entitled is the only imbalance in games.  If they intend to P4F, then they should expect to always lose at PvP over and over again.  That is the free game experience they are not paying for.  To be cannon fodder for the paying customers.
    P4F is not meant to be fun, and it doesn’t entitle them to balanced game play or mechanics. P4F allows them to see if the game will run on their rig, and see if the game world and general mechanics are to their satisfaction.  Before they are expected to start paying for for their game time.
    If the P4F gamer tries the game and sees that the world community is a dog.  The crafting is non-existent or unchallenging.  The world is too confining and not worth exploring.  The PvE and / or the PvP just doesn’t cut it.  Then the P4F gamer can leave.  The P4F gamer and the gamer maker haven’t lost a thing.  But if the P4F gamers finds the game entertaining and decided to stay and not pay.  Then the gamer maker has lost money, that they will never get from the P4F gamers.  And that is cheating, both the gamer maker and the paying community.  The paying community is challenged with overpaying to compensate for the lost money caused by the P4F gamers.  The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

    To me this response misses the forest for the trees. As cashshops have turned into essentially nothing more than proverbial paid for cheatcodes.

    As I said earlier in this thread, it's not so much an issue of devs allowing it that is important to the subject, it's that they profit off of allowing people to undermine the content in place.. with their wallet....it's no different than putting in a money or item cheat in a single player game. Most crap they offer is designed to get you ahead, (IE) an advantage.

    IT's not that they want to give people cheats, these methods are proven to drive people away (longterm). Yet that's what the market demands, as that's what people will most certainly buy. It's a matter of throwing away the rules, in order to profit. They let you cheat (undermine the rules of play), because they make quick profits off of it. All the while knowing it hurts the integrity of their game.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,755

    P2W is not cheating as it is part of the system created by the developers.

    However, P2W is destructive in other ways. Primarily in that developers design their game in order to entice players into the cash shop rather than focusing on the experience of the game. Lower XP rates is common. Limited inventory slots is common. Slower travel is another. If you're a developer and you are purposefully diminishing the game experience to make the shop appealing, you're ruining your own game.

    That being said, I'm not a free player of any game. I always pay in any game that I choose to spend my time in. Free players are the worst thing to happen to MMO's and gaming in general. Those of us who pay for games, are footing the bill for freeloaders who bring nothing. And before you say, "their value is that they populate the world." Go away, no one needs you to populate the world. Any game that's good will have players regardless.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Originally posted by shawn01
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Bunch of philosophers here at MMORPG.COM   *rolls eyes*   How would P2W be cheating? Assuming that the service was bought through a legit cash shop. Only those that are unable or unwilling to pay would assert that it is cheating. All they are doing is being butt hurt. Sorry guys, but you sound like whiners. Don't like the game model. Don't play.   Now, I do believe that the F2P game market actually steals from the consumer. But, no matter how much I try the only folks that will listen to my rants are my fellow economics classmates and professors. The rest of the gaming populace, well they remind me of the "Take my money!" Fry meme.    Protip: ANYTHING done within the confines of any game, is fair. As long as it isn't outside of TOS. Whether you believe it is "cheating" or not is rather moot.   TTFN

    While technically its not cheating its lame every way you look at it. Thats why P2W games like ArchAge have an extremely short lifespan.

     

    To say that people are butt hurt because they dont like pay to win is ignorant.

     

    Protip: if you are ok with cash shops you very likely are NOT a pro of any sort.

    In my second full paragraph I clearly state that I believe that the F2P model is designed to steal from the consumer. Google "Perfectly Price Discriminating Monopoly"

    I said, paraphrasing here, "It isn't cheating because it is part of the game's model", "If you play said game, then complain about the model, you are being butthurt".

     

    Protip: Reading comprehension is cool.

     

     

    An economics professor might listen to an argument that F2P steals from the consumer, but they won't support it.  If they are competent to teach economics.  Let me explain.

    For example two games, one is F2P and the other is P2P.  They both have the same monthly costs ($MC), and the same number of monthly players (MP).  The F2P game has a percentage of P4F gamers (gamers who spend no money on the game).  So lets calculate the monthly amount paying customer are expected to pay.

    $MC / MP = $XX < $(X,)XXX = $MC / (MP - P4F)

    You see the amounts $XX < $(X,)XXX as being unequal and higher for the F2P game and assume that the F2P game is stealing from the paying customers.  The demand is equally as high for both games.  But a segment of the F2P community is stealing the service.  The remainder of the community is taxed with paying of the theft of service.  The company is not stealing but the P4F gamers are.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,336
    Originally posted by laserit
    Well...   It seems like the lines have gotten pretty foggy. I've gotten kind of confused, where do you draw the line between P2W and cheating? Is Cheating and P2W the same thing? What's the difference?   What say you?   Time for a new poll and a new debate   Edit: The inspiration for this thread comes from the observation that the term P2W is used in place of... and much more frequently... than the word cheating. My opinion is that the term "P2W" and the word "cheating" are different and not the same. But by the results of the poll so far... a significant percentage are of a different opinion. Because of many different responses in many different threads, I'm left wondering whether players as a whole are becoming desensitized and that cheating is acceptable behavior in gameplay. And is the term P2W used to whitewash this fact?  

    It is not Pay to win if the publisher does not get paid. Other transactions are outside the scope of their business as well as control.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,180
    Originally posted by Rusque
    P2W is not cheating as it is part of the system created by the developers. However, P2W is destructive in other ways. Primarily in that developers design their game in order to entice players into the cash shop rather than focusing on the experience of the game. Lower XP rates is common. Limited inventory slots is common. Slower travel is another. If you're a developer and you are purposefully diminishing the game experience to make the shop appealing, you're ruining your own game. That being said, I'm not a free player of any game. I always pay in any game that I choose to spend my time in. Free players are the worst thing to happen to MMO's and gaming in general. Those of us who pay for games, are footing the bill for freeloaders who bring nothing. And before you say, "their value is that they populate the world." Go away, no one needs you to populate the world. Any game that's good will have players regardless.

    Don't want to type it again so I'll just say read my post directly above yours..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Cramit845Cramit845 Member UncommonPosts: 395
    Originally posted by Rusque
    That being said, I'm not a free player of any game. I always pay in any game that I choose to spend my time in. Free players are the worst thing to happen to MMO's and gaming in general. Those of us who pay for games, are footing the bill for freeloaders who bring nothing. And before you say, "their value is that they populate the world." Go away, no one needs you to populate the world. Any game that's good will have players regardless.

      I have to disagree.  I love F2P cause it always shows me what games NOT to spend my money on.  Always helpful information, especially with the "Promise everything under the sun, Deliver 1/4 of it" that seems to happen with a good percentage of games these days on release.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period. {edited for space}   If they intend to P4F, then they should expect to always lose at PvP over and over again.  That is the free game experience they are not paying for.  To be cannon fodder for the paying customers. The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

    To me this response misses the forest for the trees. As cashshops have turned into essentially nothing more than proverbial paid for cheatcodes.

    As I said earlier in this thread, it's not so much an issue of devs allowing it that is important to the subject, it's that they profit off of allowing people to undermine the content in place.. with their wallet....it's no different than putting in a money or item cheat in a single player game. Most crap they offer is designed to get you ahead, (IE) an advantage.

    IT's not that they want to give people cheats, these methods are proven to drive people away (longterm). Yet that's what the market demands, as that's what people will most certainly buy. It's a matter of throwing away the rules, in order to profit. They let you cheat (undermine the rules of play), because they make quick profits off of it. All the while knowing it hurts the integrity of their game.

    To me this response misses the concept that games are made to make profit.  Cash Shops do not drive away paying customers they drive away non paying gamers, so there is not loss or significance to that loss.  Again Cash Shop are meant to make profit.  What is fair is that everyone buys something from the cash shop.  PvE and PvP players buy gear that gives them an advantage, that is what they want and will spend their money on.  Socializers (and ***’*)  will spend money on vanity items (ie. pink tutu).  The game makers allow and advantage to paying customers because it is they only way they will get paid.  If the amount the paying segment is expected to pay is high, it is because the amount paid by P4F gamers is zero.

     

    What drives away paying customer is having to pay for P4F gamers, and listening to them whine about not getting everything for free.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by Rattenmann
    Thinking about it,... they are pretty identical for me.   Cheaters use means to gain an advantage that is against the COMPANYS understanding of "rules". Goldbuyer use means to gain an advantage that is against my PLAYER understanding of "rules".   In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.
    • Not paying for their game time by using the cash shop is against the COMPANIES and PAYING CUSTOMERS understanding of “rules” and is the only issue that matters.
    • Any perceived disadvantage is the extent of game play that P4F gamers are entitled too.

    That is assuming i am talking about free games.

    Every game has a cashshop now.

     

    All i want is pay 60 bucks for a game and be done with it. Maybe add 20 bucks / month if it is a MMO.

    Whatever you pay more then me should not translate to any advantage. Or did you win Tetris vs your friends because you had more pocket money?

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by Cramit845
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period. {edit for space}
    The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

      I get your point here, but I question what happens when you put your explanation against a game that has a sub and a cash shop or is B2P with a cash shop?  Then you have no real footing cause everyone is paying for the game at that point.  Are all players expected to purchase off the cash shop as well as pay their sub and/or the price of the box?

    When I was a preteen gas cost $0.25 a gallon.  When I started driving it cost $0.85 a gallon.  When I started paying a monthly subscription fee it cost $15 a month and gas cost $1.75.  Today a monthly sub costs $15 and gas costs ~$3.50.  I really hope you see what I am getting at.  The price of everything has gone up, including the amount the paying segment of gamers are expected to pay for games monthly. 

     

    The size of tuna fish cans has gotten smaller, but the price hasn't changed.  If the monthly sub doesn't change there will have to be a way of getting more money to cover the costs of the service.  This is where the cash shop come in.  To answer your question, Yes.  They must buy the game, pay the monthly sub, and spend money in the cash shop or not play the games.  The monthly cost must be covered or the games will shut down and makers will stop offering them.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,443

    Cheating in sports, games and gambling is the intentional breaking of rules. Cash shops don't break the rules.

    It may break some arbitrary rules made up by players. But then ANYTHING could be classed as cheating if players are just making up the rules themselves.

    image
  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by Rattenmann
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by Rattenmann
    Thinking about it,... they are pretty identical for me.   Cheaters use means to gain an advantage that is against the COMPANYS understanding of "rules". Goldbuyer use means to gain an advantage that is against my PLAYER understanding of "rules".   In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.
    • Not paying for their game time by using the cash shop is against the COMPANIES and PAYING CUSTOMERS understanding of “rules” and is the only issue that matters.
    • Any perceived disadvantage is the extent of game play that P4F gamers are entitled too.

    That is assuming i am talking about free games.

    Every game has a cashshop now.

     

    All i want is pay 60 bucks for a game and be done with it. Maybe add 20 bucks / month if it is a MMO.

    Whatever you pay more then me should not translate to any advantage. Or did you win Tetris vs your friends because you had more pocket money?

    If I drive around town I will see many closed businesses.  I believe the same can be found elsewhere.  Costs have gone up.  If gamers want to play games they will have to pay the price.  If it is Box Price plus cash shop spending, then that is the current price of games.  If they can't afford it, then they can't afford to play games.  When I played Tetris, we all paid for the game.  If my friends didn't pay for the game then I expect they would have lost.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,664
    Originally posted by immodium
    Cheating in sports, games and gambling is the intentional breaking of rules. Cash shops don't break the rules. It may break some arbitrary rules made up by players. But then ANYTHING could be classed as cheating if players are just making up the rules themselves.   EDIT: Using illegal 3rd party cash4gold sites would be classed as cheating.

    Re-Edit your post and delete that last line, because this thread is not about 3rd party sites.  Its about game makers and the in game authorized cash shop items only.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by immodium
    Cheating in sports, games and gambling is the intentional breaking of rules. Cash shops don't break the rules. It may break some arbitrary rules made up by players. But then ANYTHING could be classed as cheating if players are just making up the rules themselves.

     

    Lots of people are still missing the point because I've never seen anyone say it's literally the same thing as cheating, anyone with half a brain can get that distinction. What some people do point out is that the effect of having a P2W cash shop and the effect of  allowing cheaters free reign to cheat is very similar in terms of how the game plays. The only real difference is that in one case the dev is allowing it because they get paid. What if the dev gave their friends special gear or advantages? That wouldn't be technically "cheating" either but I bet a lot of people would not like to play that game. The devs can do what they want but we as players have every right to criticize P2W games and advise others not to play them.

     

     

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,443
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by immodium
    Cheating in sports, games and gambling is the intentional breaking of rules. Cash shops don't break the rules. It may break some arbitrary rules made up by players. But then ANYTHING could be classed as cheating if players are just making up the rules themselves.

     

    Lots of people are still missing the point because I've never seen anyone say it's literally the same thing as cheating, anyone with half a brain can get that distinction. What some people do point out is that the effect of having a P2W cash shop and the effect of  allowing cheaters free reign to cheat is very similar in terms of how the game plays. The only real difference is that in one case the dev is allowing it because they get paid. What if the dev gave their friends special gear or advantages? That wouldn't be technically "cheating" either but I bet a lot of people would not like to play that game. The devs can do what they want but we as players have every right to criticize P2W games and advise others not to play them.

     

     

    Allowing cheaters? If cheats are allowed then they stop becoming cheats and part of the rules. For example If athletes are allowed to use performance enhancing drugs they're not cheating.

    I can see your pov, if you don't use cheats/use cash shop your at a dis-advantage. What I'm arguing is that with a P2W game it's not an unfair advantage as it's part of the rules/game. Where as people cheating (breaking the rules) It's unfair.

    image
  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,760
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by Cramit845
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Cheating is using the game in a method unintended by the game maker.  P2W is a method intended by the gamer maker.  Period. {edit for space}
    The P4F gamers create the conditions of P2W themselves.

      I get your point here, but I question what happens when you put your explanation against a game that has a sub and a cash shop or is B2P with a cash shop?  Then you have no real footing cause everyone is paying for the game at that point.  Are all players expected to purchase off the cash shop as well as pay their sub and/or the price of the box?

    When I was a preteen gas cost $0.25 a gallon.  When I started driving it cost $0.85 a gallon.  When I started paying a monthly subscription fee it cost $15 a month and gas cost $1.75.  Today a monthly sub costs $15 and gas costs ~$3.50.  I really hope you see what I am getting at.  The price of everything has gone up, including the amount the paying segment of gamers are expected to pay for games monthly. 

     

    The size of tuna fish cans has gotten smaller, but the price hasn't changed.  If the monthly sub doesn't change there will have to be a way of getting more money to cover the costs of the service.  This is where the cash shop come in.  To answer your question, Yes.  They must buy the game, pay the monthly sub, and spend money in the cash shop or not play the games.  The monthly cost must be covered or the games will shut down and makers will stop offering them.

    Exactly!

     

    Or they could just say it will cost you 30 bucks a month for a sub only game and see how many people start doing double takes then.  Most people would rather think they are just paying $15 / month , when the real cost is actually much higher.  

     

    Just another reason why P2W is quite popular now.    You are going to Pay to win either way!  Either pay yourself, or let the whales pay for you and you struggle while they breeze along.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 11,213

    Ask a simplistic question about a made-up acronym with no official definition and you'll get a bunch of simplistic answers.

     

    These are the top 3 answers of what P2W means from the Urban Dictionary:

     

    1.  Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

    2.  The sad truth of the free-to-play business model.

    3.  Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

     

    1 & 3 both talk about buying an advantage... and a lot of people would categorize that as an unfair advantage... hence the inclusion of P2W as just another type of cheating in many player's minds. Not an unreasonable thought "technically incorrect" though it might be as the most literal-minded among you point out.

     

    Not only that, this question is just a side track from the real question about F2P and P2W you should be thinking about as more and more western companies incorporate the game design model that has been the norm in China for many years. And that is the real problem and the discussion you should be having: what affect are F2P and P2W having on game design?

     

    Instead you compete with each other in threads like this for the most correct answer, many of you buying into the many disguises used to hide elements that are designed exclusively to get deeper into your wallet and even believing that the arbitrary distinctions that companies decide are the "official rules" of the game, should be used to draw the line between "cheat / not cheat."

     

    There are already games in Asia where you can buy official bot programs in the cash shop that will do a variety of things for you such as gathering, leveling, crafting... so get ready to incorporate botting into your technical definitions of not cheating when they start to become available in Western cash shops. At least those of you who believe that if the company sells it it isn't cheating will rationalize this one away too.

     

    Here's a 2-yr old article about F2P and P2W you should all read: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/08/13/separating-free-to-play-and-pay-to-win ... sorry > 10 words.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,762
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.

    Says who?

    Devs think it is ok, and put them in the game.

    Players think it is ok, and play such game.

    Who are you to say they are wrong? We are talking about game rules here. There is no right or wrong. All you have is preferences.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,336
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.

    Says who?

    Devs think it is ok, and put them in the game.

    Players think it is ok, and play such game.

    Who are you to say they are wrong? We are talking about game rules here. There is no right or wrong. All you have is preferences.

    While I despise cash shops in games, I have to acknowlege their legitimacy. Any developer has every right to release a game with them. As long as there are people willing to pay for what they want, then someone with the ability to provide has every right to do so.

    That said, what I do think should be illegal is the combination of RMT and RNG. Frankly it's gambling.  And not only that, it's pushing it on minors. The only reason it's legal in the 1st place is because there is an indirect conversion of real money to pretend money. And recent threads in AA's forums showing Trion trying to collect from cheaters is a very slippery slope. The entire basis of this system is that these moneys have no real world value (lie) and are considered in game currency and are thus subject to the rules of the game and not the (gambling) laws of the country. 

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    Allowing cheaters? If cheats are allowed then they stop becoming cheats and part of the rules. For example If athletes are allowed to use performance enhancing drugs they're not cheating.

    I can see your pov, if you don't use cheats/use cash shop your at a dis-advantage. What I'm arguing is that with a P2W game it's not an unfair advantage as it's part of the rules/game. Where as people cheating (breaking the rules) It's unfair.

    Well I meant when they still say something is against the rules but don't try to prevent it or punish people who do it. I disagree that it's not unfair though. A game can have fundamentally unfair or unbalanced rules and P2W is a perfect example of that.

     

     

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,559
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    If the owner of the game says it is not cheating, it is not. They do set whatever rules on their games. That is the difference between P2W and cheating.  

    I would make a strong case for something like a cheating stigma.

    If I had been playing poker by the standard texas holdem at my friends house for years and then he says, "guess what it is now in the rules that players can hide cards up their sleeves". Screw that it's just sanctioned cheating.

    This is all Pay to Win is Pay to Cheat only instead of entering a cheat code you enter a credit card number.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


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