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P2W vs Cheating

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  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 5,946

    i'm fine with cheating in F2P games that are also P2W.

     

    It feels very Robin Hood'-y.

     

     

    image

  • ReizlaReizla Member RarePosts: 4,043
    Originally posted by maybebaked
    Perfect example. WoW vs. Archeage. In Archeage you can buy gold directly from the cash shop. This is p2w. In WoW you have to buy gold from some shady chinese gold farmer. This is cheating. Cheating is frowned upon by the developer whilst p2w aspects are supported by the developer.

    AA is named here because it's pretty hot atm. But look at all those PWI titles that are certainly Pw@ with their cash shop.

    Can't agree with you though. Using P2W or buy gold from some Chinese farmer is the same to me. P2W is only a legitimate form of goldselling provided by the publisher of the game. Question though WHO is actually filling the economy with the gold to help the P2W cash shop items to be converted to gold? Once again, the same Chines farmer.

    I've seen this happen to NCWest's Lineage II. Bots running around every where to farm gold (adena). Lots of goldselling in the game (from the bots who farmed it) as well as a lot of items form the cash shop that can be sold. Add to that a broken economy, non-binding equipment and you have all ingredients that'll show that both P2W cash shop and goldselling are cheating...

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  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,139
    This is a stupid thread....

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,255
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    i'm fine with cheating in F2P games that are also P2W.   It feels very Robin Hood'-y.    

    Exactly. Especially if the dev/publisher doesn't do much to prevent cheating then why should anyone use P2W options instead of free cheating.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,760
    Originally posted by Siug
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    i'm fine with cheating in F2P games that are also P2W.   It feels very Robin Hood'-y.    

    Exactly. Especially if the dev/publisher doesn't do much to prevent cheating then why should anyone use P2W options instead of free cheating.

    Because you don't get banned for using P2W.

     

    Duhh!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • majimaji Member UncommonPosts: 2,089

    Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation. 

     

    So, basically, no. Pay2Win game are constructed around the cash shops. Those who pay money to get advantages basically play the game as it was designed. Those who don't pay money play a crippled version of the game. If everybody is cheating, it's not really breaking the rules, but part of the game.

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,255
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Siug
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    i'm fine with cheating in F2P games that are also P2W.   It feels very Robin Hood'-y.    

    Exactly. Especially if the dev/publisher doesn't do much to prevent cheating then why should anyone use P2W options instead of free cheating.

    Because you don't get banned for using P2W.

     

    Duhh!

    Getting banned in a P2W game isn't much of a tragedy imho. Saves you enough money to buy several decent games image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,762
    Originally posted by Enbysra
     

    P2W is the developer CHEATING their customers.

    How is it cheating when you know what you are buying?

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Member UncommonPosts: 1,065

    For me the difference comes from the rules the game gives. Each game has a set of rules you need to abide to in order to play, if you go outside those rules, then it's cheating.

    So, if you can get unfair (up to debate what constitutes "unfair") advantages by paying more money, but within the rules stablished by the game, it's P2W... if you get those advantages by going outside the rules, then it's cheating. If a formula 1 team invest more money to create a better car while still within the restriction imposed by the formula 1 rules and gets an advantage from it, it could be considered P2W. An olympic runner, however, couldn't do that, and the ways to artificially increase performance (drugs, for example) are outside of the rules, that would be cheating.

    Also, it comes down to who decides which is which. P2W is something each person needs to decide for themselves, some people consider archeage P2W, others do not, same with GW2, to give some examples. Some people consider any advantage you can get by paying to make a game become P2W, others consider it that way only if those advantages have any effect in competitive playing. Cheating, however, is much more strictly defined, most (if not all) games come with a series of rules that specifically define what it's considered cheating and what is not in that particular game (for example, in WoW it's ok to use add ons and plug-ins, while in GW2 add-ons are considered cheating), and in the cases where it can be open to interpretations it's not up to each person to decide either, but up to a specific person or group of persons (mods, devs, etc).

    At least that's the way I see it.

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,426
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by laserit
    Pretty valid responses so far.   One thing that kind of bothers me that others have touched on, is basically money corrupting the spirit of games. When we get to a point where we have to buy our way.... are we actually even playing a game any more? Or are we just playing with a toy?    

    Well gee! 

     

    Isn't that like saying it is guns that kill people?    It's not the guns that kill people, it the people that kill people.   At least that is what America says.

     

    Money doesn't spend itself, bub.

     

    Nah....

     

    More about developer's designing better cash schemes instead of designing better games.

     

     

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • andre369andre369 Member UncommonPosts: 970

    Rather than comparing it to cheating I would rather look at how " P2W / Pay to progress faster" relates to core game design and decisions made early on in development. And how this affects the finished product, if you can call it that at release nowadays. 

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,760
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by laserit
    Pretty valid responses so far.   One thing that kind of bothers me that others have touched on, is basically money corrupting the spirit of games. When we get to a point where we have to buy our way.... are we actually even playing a game any more? Or are we just playing with a toy?    

    Well gee! 

     

    Isn't that like saying it is guns that kill people?    It's not the guns that kill people, it the people that kill people.   At least that is what America says.

     

    Money doesn't spend itself, bub.

     

    Nah....

     

    More about developer's designing better cash schemes instead of designing better games.

     

     

    You can design all the cash schemes you want, if people don't spend the money, it doesn't matter.

     

    Its people that decide how to spend their money, not the devs.     Based on that, it seems the games are good enough for most people, or at least enough people for them to make money.   If that isn't you, then my condolences.   Sorry but it is economics that dictate these businesses.   Your only alternative is to change things yourself but we all know that isn't going to happen.

     

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,426


    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 This is a stupid thread....
     

    Please elaborate



    Originally posted by andre369 Rather than comparing it to cheating I would rather look at how " P2W / Pay to progress faster" relates to core game design and decisions made early on in development. And how this affects the finished product, if you can call it that at release nowadays. 
     


    The inspiration for this thread comes from the observation that the term P2W is used in place of... and much more frequently... than the word cheating.

    My opinion is that the term "P2W" and the word "cheating" are different and not the same. But by the the results of the poll so far, a significant percentage are of a different opinion.

    Because of many different responses in many different threads, I'm left wondering whether players as a whole are becoming desensitized and that cheating is acceptable behavior in gameplay. And is the term P2W used to whitewash this fact?

     

     

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates.

    That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself.

    But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,760
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates. That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself. But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

    Calm, I agree with you but unfortunately people don't support sub based games for very long anymore.  There are some exceptions but that is the general rule.   And  the main reason is,  your desire to play generally decreases the longer you play the game, yet the payment remains the same.  

     

    If the sub model could come up with a way to charge players based on the time they play the game then I think  it would put a serious dent in the F2P model.    And honestly, you would think that would be simpler than coming up with all these convoluted F2P options.  

     

    But as long as people spend on F2P there is little incentive to change it seems.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,426
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates. That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself. But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

    That is the best P2P/F2P analogy I've ever read.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,232
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by laserit
    Pretty valid responses so far.   One thing that kind of bothers me that others have touched on, is basically money corrupting the spirit of games. When we get to a point where we have to buy our way.... are we actually even playing a game any more? Or are we just playing with a toy?    

    Well gee! 

     

    Isn't that like saying it is guns that kill people?    It's not the guns that kill people, it the people that kill people.   At least that is what America says.

     

    Money doesn't spend itself, bub.

     

    Nah....

     

    More about developer's designing better cash schemes instead of designing better games.

     

     

    You can design all the cash schemes you want, if people don't spend the money, it doesn't matter.

     

    Its people that decide how to spend their money, not the devs.     Based on that, it seems the games are good enough for most people, or at least enough people for them to make money.   If that isn't you, then my condolences.   Sorry but it is economics that dictate these businesses.   Your only alternative is to change things yourself but we all know that isn't going to happen.

     

    +1 

    Also what happens when players are friends with Devs so some Devs throw a few high level items their way?  But that's another topic.

    “And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.”  ― Haruki Murakami
  • JaedorJaedor Member UncommonPosts: 1,172

    Voted no. My definitions:

    P2W = I can buy increased power (currency, gear, etc.) in a game by spending real money in the store and there is no alternate way for others to compete except by doing the same.


    Cheating = I found a way to bypass the normal methods of acquiring power or exploit a bug and using them breaks the ToU/ToS.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,762
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates. That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself. But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

    Not a problem for those who don't care about community and solo all the time.

    In p2p games, you pay $15, and then you go to a cash shop to spend more money.

     

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,426
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates. That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself. But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

    Not a problem for those who don't care about community and solo all the time.

    In p2p games, you pay $15, and then you go to a cash shop to spend more money.

     

    Do you?

     

    I know I don't

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,762
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    I think my issue with P2W is more the unbalance and drama it creates. That you can acquire items outside of the game world with real cash is ideologically wrong for me, but I could live with this if it didn't impact the game itself. But it does, it's not so much cheating, but the effect it has on the community, the uncertainty and lack of balance it creates. The forum in P2W games is often filled with complaints about it's business model, it's filled with complaints about balance issues being caused by the cash shop, it creates uncertainty, anger and mistrust towards the developers. In P2P games, this doesn't happen, everyone pays $15 a month and everyone is treated as equals.

    Not a problem for those who don't care about community and solo all the time.

    In p2p games, you pay $15, and then you go to a cash shop to spend more money.

     

    Do you?

     

    I know I don't

    Of course not. I don't play sub games at all.

  • Cramit845Cramit845 Member UncommonPosts: 395

      I voted that it is the same.

     

    My thought process:

      Every game or sport, in general, is made with the idea that there are at least 2 opposing players/teams/factions on a equal playing field, whether 1 is a computer or not.  The game is there to find out which side is "better" and gives each player/team/faction the same tools and rules to compete in the game.  Anything acquired outside of the game,  without using the exact same tools or going outside the rules is considered cheating.

     

      Now in todays world this is a bit harder to nail down because of the different monetization schemes and designs that are in games.  Obviously any program that affects things in game is cheating or any action against the rules is cheating.  However, this is still a bit muddied because what do you do about mods for games or as this thread is talking about cash shops?

      In my opinion, it is condoned cheating.  Yes, some devs allow mods in their games.  Some devs allow cash shops in their games.  The point, in my view, is that people are still getting an advantage that other players do not have.  Does that mean that that advantage isn't available to other players?  No, not at all, but it being available to everyone isn't the point.  In my view your still getting an advantage in an "equal playing field" scenario and anyone who takes that advantage is in a way cheating.

      Now before everyone gets up in arms, these days it is condoned.  By how games, especially indie, are being produced, it is now the accepted practice like this kickstarter add example:

    [Random game press release:

        We're making the new greatest game!  It has this and that feature and will be the best MMO on the market!  Come be part of the foundation of our game! 

       $20 - 1st tier - Beta Access

       $60 - 2nd tier - Alpha & Beta Access

       $120 - 3rd tier - alpha, beta, epic popper scooper, 1000 gold

       ETC.]

      This is pretty much the typical kickstarter blurb put out offering their different tiers for purchase.  Now it is a lot less prevalent to get a game breaking item through this but it is possible. However, it is easily the best way to get an advantage over other players not paying at the beginning of development.  Luckily most of the time these days, the items are more cosmetic than anything but typically do give the players that participate an unfair advantage against others.

       Then you have the games built specifically around their cash shop.  For instance, games that don't allow you to talk in the general chats or reduced inventory or probably the best, chests that drop that can only be opened with purchased keys from the cash shop with a greater chance of better items.  These are all condoned by the devs but still give an unfair advantage vs the other players.

        Lets also not forget about how this all happened in the first place.  Devs were getting pissed about "farmers" logging into the game and RMT'ing gold or players selling characters and the publishers wanting a piece of the pie. (Especially when EQ and wow accounts were going for $1,000's of dollars) They realized they couldn't stop it, so they did the next best thing. 

    "If you can't beat them, join them..."

        They created cash shops to basically cut into "farmers" profits so they would hopefully stop or affect less of the players and still get paid in the process.  The whole cash shop thing was just an attempt to stop the "farmers" and allow the dev/publishers to get a cut of the costs.  They found out how well it worked and now we have the market that we have.  The "farmers" are still there and still a problem but at least the devs/publishers found another way into our wallets...., Right!?!?!

    It's condoned cheating, if people want too, go right ahead but I won't support it.

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685

    I'm surprised there is a poll about this and more surprised by the outcome of it. Pay to WIN and cheat to WIN is the SAME. You involve reality outside the game to influence the game.

    If I was a "billionaire" for example I could legally pay to win...without even buying things in the game. All I could do is hire a team of 50+ other people/players and pay them to do all things in the game to benefit my character.

    This is why it's crucial the game to have system in place that discourages methods that allow such tactics otherwise the player base will be nitche at best.

    image

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613

    Thinking about it,... they are pretty identical for me.

     

    • Cheaters use means to gain an advantage that is against the COMPANYS understanding of "rules".
    • Goldbuyer use means to gain an advantage that is against my PLAYER understanding of "rules".

     

    In a GAME. Noone should have an advantage due to paying more. It is just wrong and stays wrong, no matter how many games do it now. It is just wrong.

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

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