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P2W vs Cheating

laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,188

Well...

 

It seems like the lines have gotten pretty foggy. I've gotten kind of confused, where do you draw the line between P2W and cheating? Is Cheating and P2W the same thing? What's the difference?

 

What say you?

 

Time for a new poll and a new debate

 

Edit: The inspiration for this thread comes from the observation that the term P2W is used in place of... and much more frequently... than the word cheating.

My opinion is that the term "P2W" and the word "cheating" are different and not the same. But by the results of the poll so far... a significant percentage are of a different opinion.

Because of many different responses in many different threads, I'm left wondering whether players as a whole are becoming desensitized and that cheating is acceptable behavior in gameplay. And is the term P2W used to whitewash this fact?

 

"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

«13

Comments

  • maybebakedmaybebaked Member UncommonPosts: 305

    Perfect example. WoW vs. Archeage.

    In Archeage you can buy gold directly from the cash shop. This is p2w.

    In WoW you have to buy gold from some shady chinese gold farmer. This is cheating.

    Cheating is frowned upon by the developer whilst p2w aspects are supported by the developer.

  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,250
    Yet another AA whitewashing attempt lol? No, they 2 different things. AA selling in game money for real cash is completely P2W and on top of that AA is hacked, exploited and booted in every way possible.
  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,188
    Originally posted by maybebaked
    Perfect example. WoW vs. Archeage. In Archeage you can buy gold directly from the cash shop. This is p2w. In WoW you have to buy gold from some shady chinese gold farmer. This is cheating. Cheating is frowned upon by the developer whilst p2w aspects are supported by the developer.

    I'm with you, but some poster's don't draw that distinction. I'm very curious as to what the difference is to them.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,188
    Originally posted by Siug
    Yet another AA whitewashing attempt lol? No, they 2 different things. AA selling in game money for real cash is completely P2W and on top of that AA is hacked, exploited and booted in every way possible.

    Lets not be so small minded. AA is not what the topic is about.

     

    What's the difference to you?

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    A pretty easy "No".

    No its not foggy. Buying a sword that gives you an advantage is P2W. It was intended by the developer. Seeing through walls on the other hand, is a hack (=cheating).

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 586

    Cheating is breaking the rules.

    P2W is cheating if one buys in game stuff for real life money only if the rules of the game do not allow it.

     

    But what if a game sell p2w stuff themselves? is that cheating? of course not. . .

     

     

    I wish some one would put up a poll asking if people were tired of dumb polls. . .

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    When the developer/publisher gains income from the player buying gold it is pay to win. When he doesn't, it's cheating.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,156

    It is not the same thing. A P2win cashshop at least have some kind of balance unlike speedhacks and similar things, and cheating hurt the ones who follow the rules while P2win hurt the ones who don't want to pay.

    Pay2win is bad but cheating is far worse.

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by maybebaked
    Perfect example. WoW vs. Archeage. In Archeage you can buy gold directly from the cash shop. This is p2w. In WoW you have to buy gold from some shady chinese gold farmer. This is cheating. Cheating is frowned upon by the developer whilst p2w aspects are supported by the developer.

    The result is the same though. In both cases there is one rule that most people follow and then another more favorable set of rules for people who pay extra. I guess you could say that people should know about the P2W before hand and never start playing the game but that doesn't work if P2W elements are  added after the game starts.

    In any case a game which is P2W and one that is infested with cheaters is going to *feel* very much the same for the non-cheaters/cash shop users. In both cases your power in the game is determined by something external to gameplay. Both are unfair.

     

     

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,188
    Originally posted by sayuu
    Cheating is breaking the rules. P2W is cheating if one buys in game stuff for real life money only if the rules of the game do not allow it.   But what if a game sell p2w stuff themselves? is that cheating? of course not. . .     I wish some one would put up a poll asking if people were tired of dumb polls. . .

    Sorry, but a poll is the only way to get some kind of idea where peoples heads are at. You can easily ignore it, can't you?

     

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,250
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Siug
    Yet another AA whitewashing attempt lol? No, they 2 different things. AA selling in game money for real cash is completely P2W and on top of that AA is hacked, exploited and booted in every way possible.

    Lets not be so small minded. AA is not what the topic is about.

     

    What's the difference to you?

    Being able to get the gear through cash shop is p2w. Also, being able to buy in game money from the cash shop to buy equipment is p2w. Cheating is doing the same thing illegally, using 3rd parties.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668

     A big No for me.

     It's pretty much about what's permitted by the devs and what rules they've established. You may disagree with those rules, but cheating usually refers to 'breaking' those rules.

     Like 'touch' football, tackling is usually not permitted and can easily be considered cheating if done by someone.

    Basically, it can only be considered cheating in the context of what the existing ruleset is and how certain actions affect those said rules.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by laserit
    Well... It seems like the lines have gotten pretty foggy. I've gotten kind of confused, where do you draw the line between P2W and cheating? Is Cheating and P2W the same thing? What's the difference? What say you? Time for a new poll and a new debate

     

    Technically they are the same thing, since almost every microtransaction seminar has a slide that states the best items in a cash shop are the ones that " break " the game.  

     

      

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,663

    If the owner of the game says it is not cheating, it is not. They do set whatever rules on their games. That is the difference between P2W and cheating.

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,235
     
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,175
    To me it's a form of cheating, not much different than putting player.additem 0000000f into skyrim to get money fast, which is condoned by the devs, they make this stuff available after all, and it's still called a "cheatcode".

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,017

    P2W = Highest bid on Ebay

    Cheating = Contacting the seller, and having them pull the auction, so that they can avoid the fees.

     

    Define: Cheating

    act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

     

    As long as you are following the rules in good faith, you are not cheating. Money doesnt have anything to do with it.

  • 123443211234123443211234 Member UncommonPosts: 244
    Originally posted by Enbysra P2W is the developer CHEATING their customers.   Cheating otherwise is the players CHEATING the developer.   So YES, it is the same thing, ie CHEATING. The only difference is whom is doing the cheating.   What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    This guy knows whats up.  Both are cheating the player that just wants a "fair" playing field to enjoy their gaming experience.  One is the developer getting fat stacks of cash the other is a 3rd party raking in fat stacks.   Both are examples of cash being used by players to gain an advantage over others.  What people are overlooking is that by developers inserting themselves into the mix they have "legalized" cheating.  

     

    Also, Instead of using their resources to ban people using RMT they are trying to take their place.  Another side effect of  whoring their game out as F2P is allowing all those RMT farmers free and unfettered game accounts to also sell lots of gold, compounding the p2w problems.  Not too mention allowing hackers a care free haven to hack and exploit to their hearts content, not really a big deal when a free account gets banned now is it.  

     

    Just give me a game with a purchase price and a monthly sub without the cash shop money grab and I and many others will be happy gamers.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,175
    Originally posted by Superman0X
    P2W = Highest bid on Ebay Cheating = Contacting the seller, and having them pull the auction, so that they can avoid the fees.   Define: Cheating act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.   As long as you are following the rules in good faith, you are not cheating. Money doesnt have anything to do with it.

    Really the definition of cheating says it all, at least when I look at the evolution of said in game activity. Take a normal subscription MMO from around 2003 or prior, very few had in game cash shops, yet they still had people "paying to win" (buying Jedi toons in SWG being one example). IT was viewed as cheating the system as well as mechanics of the game, as you were bypassing the rules of play.

    Now fast forward to today, what's different? Cashshops are all about an unfair advantage, be it XP pots, buying gold, items of power... etc... The only difference is, it's far more widespread, and the devs/publishers capitalize off of it. As all of this is designed to give an advantage, in most cases an unfair one. As fair play means you stand on equal footing, when cashshops come into the picture, fairplay goes out of the window.

    DEvs didn't start doing this because they wanted people to have these advantages, they did  so to cut into teh profits third parties were making. They essentially give a route to cheat the systems they created, in order to make a buck off it.

    Devs allowing you to cheat doesn't negate that you are cheating to get ahead.

     

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • shawn01shawn01 Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by Enbysra
    Originally posted by laserit
    Well... It seems like the lines have gotten pretty foggy. I've gotten kind of confused, where do you draw the line between P2W and cheating? Is Cheating and P2W the same thing? What's the difference? What say you? Time for a new poll and a new debate

    P2W is the developer CHEATING their customers.

     

    Cheating otherwise is the players CHEATING the developer.

     

    So YES, it is the same thing, ie CHEATING. The only difference is whom is doing the cheating.

     

    What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    This is exactly what i was going to say.

     

    P2W is the devs cheating the customer. And we cheat ourselves by giving them money.

     

    We need to stop playing games with cash shops, i know i will never play another cash shop game.

     

    Cash shop= no play for me.

     

  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175

    Bunch of philosophers here at MMORPG.COM   *rolls eyes*

     

    How would P2W be cheating? Assuming that the service was bought through a legit cash shop. Only those that are unable or unwilling to pay would assert that it is cheating. All they are doing is being butt hurt. Sorry guys, but you sound like whiners. Don't like the game model. Don't play.

     

    Now, I do believe that the F2P game market actually steals from the consumer. But, no matter how much I try the only folks that will listen to my rants are my fellow economics classmates and professors. The rest of the gaming populace, well they remind me of the "Take my money!" Fry meme. 

     

    Protip: ANYTHING done within the confines of any game, is fair. As long as it isn't outside of TOS. Whether you believe it is "cheating" or not is rather moot.

     

    TTFN

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668

     Depending on who it is you wish to blame, then 'cheating' becomes interchangeable.

     "The devs are cheating the players" "Players are cheating the 'system' "

    The crux of the matter comes down to choice. We choose what we do, play a game with a cash shop then cry that it's unfair, or exploit or manipulate the systems for our benefit.

    Until everyone stops playing these games and giving these games money, then it's your choice to merely stop playing them.

    There's really no confusion to be had here, most games make it abundantly clear within the first few weeks how their CS is set up and what's in them.

     

  • shawn01shawn01 Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Bunch of philosophers here at MMORPG.COM   *rolls eyes*   How would P2W be cheating? Assuming that the service was bought through a legit cash shop. Only those that are unable or unwilling to pay would assert that it is cheating. All they are doing is being butt hurt. Sorry guys, but you sound like whiners. Don't like the game model. Don't play.   Now, I do believe that the F2P game market actually steals from the consumer. But, no matter how much I try the only folks that will listen to my rants are my fellow economics classmates and professors. The rest of the gaming populace, well they remind me of the "Take my money!" Fry meme.    Protip: ANYTHING done within the confines of any game, is fair. As long as it isn't outside of TOS. Whether you believe it is "cheating" or not is rather moot.   TTFN

    While technically its not cheating its lame every way you look at it. Thats why P2W games like ArchAge have an extremely short lifespan.

     

    To say that people are butt hurt because they dont like pay to win is ignorant.

     

    Protip: if you are ok with cash shops you very likely are NOT a pro of any sort.

  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 5,188

    Pretty valid responses so far.

     

    One thing that kind of bothers me that others have touched on, is basically money corrupting the spirit of games. When we get to a point where we have to buy our way.... are we actually even playing a game any more? Or are we just playing with a toy?

     

     

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,756
    Originally posted by laserit
    Pretty valid responses so far.   One thing that kind of bothers me that others have touched on, is basically money corrupting the spirit of games. When we get to a point where we have to buy our way.... are we actually even playing a game any more? Or are we just playing with a toy?    

    Well gee! 

     

    Isn't that like saying it is guns that kill people?    It's not the guns that kill people, it the people that kill people.   At least that is what America says.

     

    Money doesn't spend itself, bub.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

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