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[General Article] World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor Review in Progress #3 - The End Game

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Comments

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Originally posted by Akumawraith

    Ive played it, Ive found it to be just what I expected,  Boring, and over priced with a lack of any meaningful content.  Burning Crusade was done with more content, more attention, and more care towards the players.

     

    WoD has Activisions feel to it... low quality with plenty of hype for the mindless masses.

     

    If you disagree you have that right, however look at Burning Crusade and the content of that expansion then look at WoD and tell me you dont feel jipped.

    I have to completely disagree here.  Burning Crusade was skipped by a lot of people I know because it really lacked content.

    I like the garrisons feature in this game.  I suppose if you don't craft, just doing the end game would be boring.   Personally I don't see any grind at this point.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    People are not referring to TBC after the next expansion was released and the zone emptied out obviously.  Garrisons looks fun, however Garrisons is not the core game, the gear race is, and once that has started its back to same old same old broken mess of balancing issues where player with more gear > than player without will resume.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977

    Here's the deal... if you see it as a grind, it's not fun.  

    Honestly, the grind has always been there since day one (all they way back to 2004 here)... you just never noticed it because you were having fun.  The reality is, these type of games are meant to be played with friends, not complete strangers.  You're supposed to be getting drunk with friends while doing dungeon runs.  Laughing at the guy who comes up with the Leroy Jenkins in-game for the very first time.  Finding amusement flagging yourself trying to bait the opposing faction to engage in PVP before a raid run begins.

    The grind exists because you are playing it alone or with people you could care less to run into ever again in your lifetime.

    The game can't make friends for you.  The game is only as fun as you make it to be.  If you don't care to have fun, it's not going to be fun.  Simple as that.

    The game is what it is.  What has changed over the years, is the need for playing games with people you know to playing games with complete strangers or completely alone.  It's trying to play baseball all alone... sure, it can be done, but it certainly isn't as fun as playing with a team, nor as fun as playing with your friends.

    If you see it as a grind, you're not having fun.  Period.

     

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx Member UncommonPosts: 2,039
    Originally posted by Pepeq

    Here's the deal... if you see it as a grind, it's not fun.  

    Honestly, the grind has always been there since day one (all they way back to 2004 here)... you just never noticed it because you were having fun.  The reality is, these type of games are meant to be played with friends, not complete strangers.  You're supposed to be getting drunk with friends while doing dungeon runs.  Laughing at the guy who comes up with the Leroy Jenkins in-game for the very first time.  Finding amusement flagging yourself trying to bait the opposing faction to engage in PVP before a raid run begins.

    The grind exists because you are playing it alone or with people you could care less to run into ever again in your lifetime.

    The game can't make friends for you.  The game is only as fun as you make it to be.  If you don't care to have fun, it's not going to be fun.  Simple as that.

    The game is what it is.  What has changed over the years, is the need for playing games with people you know to playing games with complete strangers or completely alone.  It's trying to play baseball all alone... sure, it can be done, but it certainly isn't as fun as playing with a team, nor as fun as playing with your friends.

    If you see it as a grind, you're not having fun.  Period.

     

    It is not the grind but double standards of it.

    I have seen much terrible grinds in games like STO and current example ESO (mother of God those veteran ranks are just horrible). But somehow 'repetitve tasks' are only bad when it comes to WOW. Infact, every feature that WOW has is bad and makes it a worse game while people have no problem using that similar feature in other MMOS.. for example 'LFG' tool. (just one of many)

    I wouldn't worry about it. People are very biased and jaded towards WOW and its amazing success. They pretend as if gear treadmills, reputation grinds and class imbalance only exists in WOW.

  • ZorgoZorgo Member UncommonPosts: 2,254
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by Pepeq

    Here's the deal... if you see it as a grind, it's not fun.  

    Honestly, the grind has always been there since day one (all they way back to 2004 here)... you just never noticed it because you were having fun.  The reality is, these type of games are meant to be played with friends, not complete strangers.  You're supposed to be getting drunk with friends while doing dungeon runs.  Laughing at the guy who comes up with the Leroy Jenkins in-game for the very first time.  Finding amusement flagging yourself trying to bait the opposing faction to engage in PVP before a raid run begins.

    The grind exists because you are playing it alone or with people you could care less to run into ever again in your lifetime.

    The game can't make friends for you.  The game is only as fun as you make it to be.  If you don't care to have fun, it's not going to be fun.  Simple as that.

    The game is what it is.  What has changed over the years, is the need for playing games with people you know to playing games with complete strangers or completely alone.  It's trying to play baseball all alone... sure, it can be done, but it certainly isn't as fun as playing with a team, nor as fun as playing with your friends.

    If you see it as a grind, you're not having fun.  Period.

     

    It is not the grind but double standards of it.

    I have seen much terrible grinds in games like STO and current example ESO (mother of God those veteran ranks are just horrible). But somehow 'repetitve tasks' are only bad when it comes to WOW. Infact, every feature that WOW has is bad and makes it a worse game while people have no problem using that similar feature in other MMOS.. for example 'LFG' tool. (just one of many)

    I wouldn't worry about it. People are very biased and jaded towards WOW and its amazing success. They pretend as if gear treadmills, reputation grinds and class imbalance only exists in WOW.

    I don't think they are upset because it exists 'only in wow', but quite the opposite actually. It is a commonly held opinion that wow perfected it and it spread like disease to other games. They are mad at wow's success because it infected every other mmo out there. 

  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 194
    it's a MMORPG.  You are playing the wrong genre if you can't stand the grind.  Grind was there when I started playing EQ1, and it's still there as of ESO, WS, and AA.  The only other end-games are to PvP for the thrill of it or to RP as if you were playing an RPG.
     
    EDIT: I'm digging the new xPac.  Not that I've seen any new content, but I rolled a new toon and have been grinding up to now, level 57, I think.  Still digging it and in fact I'm a little confused as to why I left in the first place.  WoW is a solid game.

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Pvp is a grind also
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by p4ttythep3rf3ct
    it's a MMORPG.  You are playing the wrong genre if you can't stand the grind.  Grind was there when I started playing EQ1, and it's still there as of ESO, WS, and AA.  The only other end-games are to PvP for the thrill of it or to RP as if you were playing an RPG.
     
    EDIT: I'm digging the new xPac.  Not that I've seen any new content, but I rolled a new toon and have been grinding up to now, level 57, I think.  Still digging it and in fact I'm a little confused as to why I left in the first place.  WoW is a solid game.

    The original Everquest was extremely grindy, more so than modern games, of which i include WoW, what WoW did was introduce quests into the mix to break up the grind, rather than camping a mob spawn point and repeatedly killing things over and over again, which is pretty much all that happened in Everquest, WoW actually gave you fun things to do. And then there was the expac's, Everquest released loads of them, but it was more a case of just more places to camp spawn points, a new Expac in WoW, was not just areas, but more things to be doing, actual content, not geography. SOE is a long way behind the curve when it comes to games design, Blizzard on the other hand, have shown that they at least understand what it is that players will enjoy, and are able to deliver it, but have to say, hopefully the next WoW expac will drastically improve the graphics image

  • presidentnegpresidentneg Member Posts: 19
    Originally posted by odiasuda
    Originally posted by presidentneg

    Yeas

    What "outstanding sandbox" are you referring to?

    Minecraft, 7 days to die, SWG, Fallouts, Skyrim with outpost and village building mods

    image
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Those are some great mmorpgs....
  • syriinxsyriinx Member UncommonPosts: 1,383
    Originally posted by Phry
     hopefully the next WoW expac will drastically improve the graphics image

    If you dont like WoW's graphics now there is no level of improvement they could make that you would enjoy

    They could increase the tech all they want, but it wouldnt change the aesthetics.  Just look at the new character models.  Changing WoW's aesthetics would be the most idiotic MMORPG move since LucasArts and SoE NGE'd folks.

     

    There are games out there technically superior but aesthetically make me want to vomit (Rift, TERA to name two).  Many feel the same way about WoW and that wont change no matter how much detail they add.

  • presidentnegpresidentneg Member Posts: 19
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Those are some great mmorpgs....

    I said sandbox games. Count SWG in that though. 7 Days and Minecraft can't hold hundreds ( some minecraft servers can't but you rarely see that ) of players on one server but where is the loss when you can have a real impact on the gameworld unlike just killing respawning mobs.

     

    WoW has also little to no immersion value anymore in 2015 so what's left is glorified gears grinding killing the same bosses over and over again or replaying the same silly BGs "yo this is war but let's play flag capture, top immersion dawg". I'd still rank wow world pvp fun over a MOBA but you'll timesink countless of hours in grinding and regrinding to be competitive unlike a MOBA. See Blizzard has the epitome of MMO revenue but intruth they barely do anything with the game, they roll out xpacks sell them at high prices and in the meanwhile enjoy your 2 patches of raid grind content. No hate on the devs that actually just follow orders though or anyone else, just pointing out the truth.

     
     
     
     

    image
  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    yep you get it, all rpg have grinds, but the beauty of grinds is that you used to get to c a long time to enjoy the rewards in the virtual world. when blizzard realised that getting gear was addictive they in creased the rate at which you replaced gear such that you were constantly regrinding - grind an item then in a very short time start grinding to replace it. Thus the 'I hate grinding' started to emerge. then blizzard completed there destruction of grinds by taking the grind element away - you simply had to play to get rewards. This is why garrisons is fun, the meta is grinding for a long term set of elements. If only they done the same for the core of the game.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BigbooBigboo Member Posts: 201

    All games have some sort of grind, even the best game that I played, Skyrim has a gear grind.

    Progression grind isnt a problem for me, but some games just have the grind, as in Eso's boring quest grinds and boring vet grind.

    ----

    ----

  • ReverielleReverielle Member UncommonPosts: 124
    Originally posted by Horusra
    I have yet to find any game without grind. One way or another their is only so much new that can exist. It is finding a grind you like.

     

    Yes, grind is a very much 'eye of the beholder' thing. It has a lot to do with your perception, concept and outlook on things. In-game or otherwise.

  • TNgalTNgal Member Posts: 19

    I'm wondering...with WoW being about ten years old, is it likely that the devs are just burned out themselves?  With the addition of the cash shop, is it possible they are taking steps to go F2P eventually? or do a hybrid setup? or is it just going to die a slow death, as the new and shiny wears off the latest expac and people leave?  Just wondering what you guys think....

  • happyfartshappyfarts Member UncommonPosts: 94
    My major issue with the expansion is that I hate how they totally walked all over ogrim. The guy was a legend in the original story-line
  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 592

    I know. "Do what you like and forget the stuff you don't." But what am I left with if not progressing through raiding? Oh that's right: GRIND.

     

    Well, I came to the same point.  I thought why the hell I am going through all this trouble to get gear that looks like ass, just so I can do more shit I don't enjoy when the next tier hits, so I can more gear that looks like ass to get ready for the next tier...   So I stopped.  I was bored within a week.  

     

    The reality is now that they have basically destroyed the leveling experience by making everything so fast and requiring so little effort they have removed the one activity that got a lot of people through vanilla, BC and wrath.  leveling alts.  They want everyone at max level, but max level is boring as hell.  And if you don't raid or PvP, there isn't much reason to stay subbed.  This wasn't always the case, but it certainly feels that way now.

  • sportsfansportsfan Member Posts: 431
    Originally posted by jbombard

    I know. "Do what you like and forget the stuff you don't." But what am I left with if not progressing through raiding? Oh that's right: GRIND.

     

    Well, I came to the same point.  I thought why the hell I am going through all this trouble to get gear that looks like ass, just so I can do more shit I don't enjoy when the next tier hits, so I can more gear that looks like ass to get ready for the next tier...   So I stopped.  I was bored within a week.  

     

    The reality is now that they have basically destroyed the leveling experience by making everything so fast and requiring so little effort they have removed the one activity that got a lot of people through vanilla, BC and wrath.  leveling alts.  They want everyone at max level, but max level is boring as hell.  And if you don't raid or PvP, there isn't much reason to stay subbed.  This wasn't always the case, but it certainly feels that way now.

    Shrug. I go for great Titles, Achievements, rare Mounts... in a MMORPG... Prestige ....

    Gear as such is mostly only a means to an end.

    And that end in WoW is Soooooooo ridiculous wide spread after 10 years of content that you will need  a LIFE time to get it all done.

    The most ridiculous statements you see here on mmmorp.ihatewowandpromotegarbage.com and quite frankly 99% of these posters only touched 0.3% of the game OPTIONS anyway.

    As always mmorpg.com and its community indulge itself in destroying WoW, the leader of the pack.

    And the end result is ... that this site hardly has 20% of the visitors it had in 2010.

    Easely traced by watching at daily forum post counts.

     

    While the JOKE of it all is that WoW is still with 10 million players, a game that has been predicted dead for 7 years already in this site and "certainly no longer the biggest mmorpg ever".

    Facts 2013: WoW made more money in 2013 than the numbers 2-9 combined in MMORPG land ... or 1.04 billion dollars ... without an expansion pack even...

    But do continue though..... If you think that WoW bashing will be good for this failing MMORPG industry.

    Btw: you only get a grind feeling when you hate a game. If you like parts of the game, you play it endlessly without that grind.

    If you can't enjoy nor pvE, nor PvP, nor playing the economy and are not interested in prestigious titles or showing off achievements in a game ... for ... fun, stop playing ANY game really.

    The end game in WoD is now 10 times bigger in CHOICES than in Vanilla WoW or TBC. Achievements and prestigious titles in EVERY corner of what you like, from rated BG's to Pet Battles, Garrisons, open world PvP and dozens of different other forms of PvE, PvP and Economies.

    You guys are nothing short of being blinded by ignorance when it comes to WoW and the present day HUGE offers of options.

    Play the duds, no problem with that, but stop fooling around.

     

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Bigboo

    All games have some sort of grind, even the best game that I played, Skyrim has a gear grind.

    Progression grind isnt a problem for me, but some games just have the grind, as in Eso's boring quest grinds and boring vet grind.

    +1 for truth!! Sorry, but ESO was possibly one of the most boring level experiences as soon as you got into higher levels of any game out there. And then once you get to vet levels? OMFG!  

     

    Grinding is definitely part of the genre, but WoW at least gives you a decent amount of variety in order to collect your gear. You've got the PvE path of Dungeons and Raids and the PvP path of battlegrounds and arena. You've also got daily quests, etc. if that's your bag. So, yes, it is a grind, but it at least offers something for everyone, so hopefully you won't want to slit your wrists when you get there. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • mac6115cdmac6115cd Member UncommonPosts: 11

    Considering life itself is a grind, I don't know what else you'd expect from an MMO. I'm sure you haven't explored every square inch of Draenor. Aside from permanent character death, there really isn't an "end game" to any MMO.

    I have my main character (Alliance) at 100 and still have 3 zones to explore/quest. I'm currently going back to the starter zones to  earn the zone achievements and starting to do dungeons while still upgrading my garrison. After that, I'll work on my Horde character.

    Blizzard can add a lot without having release a full expansion - just add content to garrisons and missions, rare mobs, new quest lines, etc.

    WoD is, IMHO, the best WoW expansion and I plan to get as much out of it as I can. It's a great diversion from the "grind" of everyday life!

  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 592
    Originally posted by sportsfan
    Originally posted by jbombard

    I know. "Do what you like and forget the stuff you don't." But what am I left with if not progressing through raiding? Oh that's right: GRIND.

     

    Well, I came to the same point.  I thought why the hell I am going through all this trouble to get gear that looks like ass, just so I can do more shit I don't enjoy when the next tier hits, so I can more gear that looks like ass to get ready for the next tier...   So I stopped.  I was bored within a week.  

     

    The reality is now that they have basically destroyed the leveling experience by making everything so fast and requiring so little effort they have removed the one activity that got a lot of people through vanilla, BC and wrath.  leveling alts.  They want everyone at max level, but max level is boring as hell.  And if you don't raid or PvP, there isn't much reason to stay subbed.  This wasn't always the case, but it certainly feels that way now.

    Shrug. I go for great Titles, Achievements, rare Mounts... in a MMORPG... Prestige ....

    Gear as such is mostly only a means to an end.

    And that end in WoW is Soooooooo ridiculous wide spread after 10 years of content that you will need  a LIFE time to get it all done.

    The most ridiculous statements you see here on mmmorp.ihatewowandpromotegarbage.com and quite frankly 99% of these posters only touched 0.3% of the game OPTIONS anyway.

    As always mmorpg.com and its community indulge itself in destroying WoW, the leader of the pack.

    And the end result is ... that this site hardly has 20% of the visitors it had in 2010.

    Easely traced by watching at daily forum post counts.

     

    While the JOKE of it all is that WoW is still with 10 million players, a game that has been predicted dead for 7 years already in this site and "certainly no longer the biggest mmorpg ever".

    Facts 2013: WoW made more money in 2013 than the numbers 2-9 combined in MMORPG land ... or 1.04 billion dollars ... without an expansion pack even...

    But do continue though..... If you think that WoW bashing will be good for this failing MMORPG industry.

    Btw: you only get a grind feeling when you hate a game. If you like parts of the game, you play it endlessly without that grind.

    If you can't enjoy nor pvE, nor PvP, nor playing the economy and are not interested in prestigious titles or showing off achievements in a game ... for ... fun, stop playing ANY game really.

    The end game in WoD is now 10 times bigger in CHOICES than in Vanilla WoW or TBC. Achievements and prestigious titles in EVERY corner of what you like, from rated BG's to Pet Battles, Garrisons, open world PvP and dozens of different other forms of PvE, PvP and Economies.

    You guys are nothing short of being blinded by ignorance when it comes to WoW and the present day HUGE offers of options.

    Play the duds, no problem with that, but stop fooling around.

     

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I played from vanilla to 5.3.  I got 7 days in 5.4, and another 7 just before WoD was released.  During my latest stint, I was able to level from 85-90 in just a few hours.  In a couple hours after that I was in full timeless isle purples.  To me that speaks volumes to how shallow of a game WoW has become.  Sure they tossed in some dumbed down pokemon, a dash of farmville, and with Garrisons they even have a little Wartune up in there.  

     

    2 things kept me playing in the past, the vast amount of content, and the community.  The community has taken a nosedive since Cataclysm and is pretty rockbottom outside of guild chat.  The vast amounts of content has all been streamlined and sped up so much that leveling has become a meaningless blur and has rendered pretty much all that content worthless.  

     

    On top of that  pretty much the RPG has been all but ripped out of WoW, most FPS or Action games today have more RPG features than WoW does.  

     

    That said it still has a lot of polish, but it has become pretty shallow.  Don't get me wrong there is a whole lot of shallow if you are into the whole quantity over quality thing.   

     

    McDonalds may sell more pounds of beef than any other restaurant, that doesn't mean their beef is the best.  It just mean they are good at packing it in a cheap, fast, easy to choke down way.  When you want good steak you don't go to McDonalds.  WoW is the McDonalds of MMOs, you can't argue with their sales numbers, but while it may be fast it isn't very satsifying.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Maybe not satisfying to you.
  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    MMORPG's are grindy. News at 11. 
  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Theres Grindy, then there is the new 'regrindy' model, you know, gear is a race, rewards from grinds are not special, they are just another step in the oh so fast  get-an-upgrade-almost -every-other-day-to-keep-you-hooked model.

    The original grind was do something for months and get a reward that was amazing because you know it wasn't going to get replaced for a long time, which ofc does not work in the get-an-upgrade-almost -every-other-day-to-keep-you-hooked model as you fall behind the gear score race.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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