Originally posted by loulaki when people will understand that subscription doesn't offer a better product ???
The argument was never about that. It is about offering a better experience. Simple fact is that myself and rl mmo playing friends ONLY play these games that offer a subscription option even it is along side a f2p model.
No subscription option = we do not play.
The hoops, traps and p2w hassles of most f2p games are simply not worth the trouble. It detracts from a seamless playing experience based on equality and sportsmanship. F2p is based entirely on gamesmanship. That is exactly what it would be called in any real sport or gaming experience. Those of us who grew up playing real games be it board games, video games, rpgs, sports, etc clearly understand the difference.
Boundaries between fair play and abusive monetization is nearly always crossed by f2p. The exceptions are so rare that they are nearly invisible in the current mmo landscape.
You are a very small minority - if ever players that only play P2P become any more than small % of the playerbase Dev studios might consider you.
I guess your must consider 10 million subs in WoW a small number.
Originally posted by loulaki when people will understand that subscription doesn't offer a better product ???
The argument was never about that. It is about offering a better experience. Simple fact is that myself and rl mmo playing friends ONLY play these games that offer a subscription option even it is along side a f2p model.
No subscription option = we do not play.
The hoops, traps and p2w hassles of most f2p games are simply not worth the trouble. It detracts from a seamless playing experience based on equality and sportsmanship. F2p is based entirely on gamesmanship. That is exactly what it would be called in any real sport or gaming experience. Those of us who grew up playing real games be it board games, video games, rpgs, sports, etc clearly understand the difference.
Boundaries between fair play and abusive monetization is nearly always crossed by f2p. The exceptions are so rare that they are nearly invisible in the current mmo landscape.
You are a very small minority - if ever players that only play P2P become any more than small % of the playerbase Dev studios might consider you.
I guess your must consider 10 million subs in WoW a small number.
or the 2.5 million playing FF14
or the over 1 million playing ESO
Technically only 3.5 million or whatever play WoW as a sub. Asia including China, which constitute over half the announced "subscriptions", don't allow subscriptions but follow a paid time card business model of WoW.
Also many MMOs don't have the regional access that WoW does. FF14 only a few months ago released a Chinese version of FF14, WS still hasn't but its in the near future, and don't know if ESO even has released a version for that region.
And really if you're over 300k subs then you're doing very very VERY well.
For WoW's raging success with sub numbers then why does it seem that they are no where putting into the game that it should be? Classes are horrendously unbalance that has been said through all of beta, total crap for content outside of garrison and Highmaul for lvl capped toons, no additional BGs or Arenas, crafting being total garbage. If your game has millions upon millions of paying customers, one would think your product would be amazing instead of the current stated where its a mixed bag it seems like.
ESO was the last mmo I subbed for I learned my lesson don't subscribe for 6 moths cause you think the game is going to be great.ill buy a mmo play for a moth and then decide but they basically forced us to subscribe and then the game was a disappointment.
thank goodness for my new gaming addiction of dark souls so bloodborne will keep me busy for at least a 1000 hours without a subscription!
That was your own dumb fault for jumping on the bandwagon.
I much prefer it to start out free to play than charge a box price in addition to subs and possibly even life time subs only to later convert to a free to play because that's where the players are. I am thankful SOE is starting out free to play rather than the box, sub, lifetime sub than converting.
I said before it all started it was a mistake but there really was no other option for games that people will simply not subscribe too.
Soe had fallen out of favor badly ,so cash shop was their saving grace.They figure that with the following that does stick by then they can make more than a sub fee off those players.The other and imo ONLY downside of a subscription model is the numbers are out there and that can really hurt a game.It is easier to hide numbers ,although gamer's still notice if servers are empty.
Cash shop is such a bad business model,it is nothing but a guessing game ,so the developer is going to work around that by delivering less quality.
EVERY single cash shop i have seen is over the top,asking for too much money.I choose to not support the idea at all as i am sure many others are in the same boat.However it won't make Soe or others change,they have no other option,people won't support their product if have to subscribe because remember most also have active Wow subs as well as wanting to play other games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
EVERY single cash shop i have seen is over the top,asking for too much money.I choose to not support the idea at all as i am sure many others are in the same boat.However it won't make Soe or others change,they have no other option,people won't support their product if have to subscribe because remember most also have active Wow subs as well as wanting to play other games.
The good thing about a cash shop is you can make the choice not to support it. The only way a free to play game hurts you in this event is if it's necessary to purchase things to progress or compete but many games have used cash shops without going overboard and in some cases only sold cosmetic items. You may think all cash shops ask for too much money but the reason they are becoming the norm is because enough people don't agree with you and as such they essentially pay for your game time.
PS And ofcourse they had a choice. They could have charged a box and subs and given into the inevitable (if necessary) in the end after robbing people like alot of p2p MMOs of late.
EVERY single cash shop i have seen is over the top,asking for too much money.I choose to not support the idea at all as i am sure many others are in the same boat.However it won't make Soe or others change,they have no other option,people won't support their product if have to subscribe because remember most also have active Wow subs as well as wanting to play other games.
What do you consider "too much money?"
LoL, Dota2, TF2, CS:GO, PS2, Smite, GW2 are all pretty fair to me. Obviously FPS/MOBA aren't mmorpgs, but I think the same design can work in other genres. GW2 even though B2P, has a decent shop, not sure, but I'm assuming without the box, they could still do okay. Not sure how other mmorpg shops are doing, but assuming they can't be too terrible if they are still open for business with paying customers.
I think one thing SOE has that other companies either lack or have barely gone after, is Player Studio. Player created shop items are a huge deal. Valve knows this and even their system is pretty limited.
If the shop has potentially hundreds/thousands of items to purchase, it's just a numbers game. Enough money will be tossed at the screen to keep everyone fairly happy and prices can stay within the reasonable zone.
I'd much rather buy 15-30 items a month at $.50-1 then pay a flat sub if it means I get the same quality experience, but extra fluff on top. Especially if I know some of that is going towards fellow players and creative folks.
For me, as long as the game isn't designed with huge paywalls, I'm fine with shop items being a big draw and source of income. If I can't play without paying, that is no different then a sub, most likely just costs more total in smaller chunks. Problem is, many games go this route or P2W where you are left behind unless forking over cash constantly.
My ideal system would have things to purchase that I "want" instead of "need" and that add to an already great FREE experience. It's a lot to hope for, but we'll see where SOE goes.
Any free to play MMO is just fail, The absurd argument that seems to get thrown around a lot is that Cash Shops are better because they would rather not spend a monthly fee of $10-15 a month. The fact of the matter is if the game is going to have cash shops rather than subscription than theyre whole premise is to make sure that the players will absolutely at some point need to spend money to become top tier in the game/look the best ect and put more focus on that than on real immersive fun group oriented gameplay. To me that is not what how a true MMO is meant to be. In an MMO I should never come to a situation where a noob has better armor/looking armor than myself when I worked for hours and hours to obtain my gear while he threw a credit card at a Cash Shop and called it a day.
Another thing is, When it is subscription only you kind of have more of a "I'm in a new virtual world" type feel, Cash Shops completely take that feeling away IMO makes it seem more dull and less meaningful. Think about it the only "successful" free to play MMO is guild wars 2 and there population flopped within a few months going from millions to only a steady 100,000 players or less. Seeing as Everquest 1 shined in its glory days as a paid to play, I just don't see it having the same vibe with EQ Next.. The only reason Cash Shops are so big now with gaming companies is because of League of Legends, straight and simple. But league's gameplay is perfect for a cash shop, because it is a MOBA.. MMO's copying that idea just do not have the same impact.
Just my opinion, played every MMO since 1997 and I just don't see the F2P thing working out for anyone. From what i've seen so far EQ Next is going to be a beautiful, epic LOOKING, buggy, fail.
MMORPG's of the future seem to remind me more and more of a Las Vegas slot machine, Put money in, get a short high, put more money in get another short high. It's pretty sad really.
P.S. Allen there isnt a damn thing sony will ever sell you for .50-1.00.. Items will be anywhere from 5-20 dollars a pop. Dont believe me play some planetside 2, or EQ Landmark, or EQ 2.. prices are hefty Hell if you would of bought your quote "15 items a month" in PS2 you would have spent well over $150-$200 LOL Thats about a year and a half worth of gameplay in a subscription based game @ $15.00 a month.
What is the definition of fail you are using? I've played plenty of F2P games, MMO or not, that are doing just fine and provide (me) a good experience.
The absurd argument that seems to get thrown around a lot is that Cash Shops are better because they would rather not spend a monthly fee of $10-15 a month. The fact of the matter is if the game is going to have cash shops rather than subscription than theyre whole premise is to make sure that the players will absolutely at some point need to spend money to become top tier in the game/look the best ect and put more focus on that than on real immersive fun group oriented gameplay. To me that is not what how a true MMO is meant to be. In an MMO I should never come to a situation where a noob has better armor/looking armor than myself when I worked for hours and hours to obtain my gear while he threw a credit card at a Cash Shop and called it a day.
While I agree that there should be some level of "earned" quality and accomplishment should override the almighty dollar thrown at a shop, that doesn't mean a cash shop can't function without some limitations. Although I personally don't care if someone wants to drop $100 on a armor skin while it took me a month to obtain, them having it doesn't take away from what I did.
I think this becomes an issue when "best" is very clearly stated and the distinction between cash shop and earned gear is night and day. More so in P2W or vertical systems. If I have access to 100 choices that all look fairly equal, 20 being available in a shop isn't so much of a deal. When it's 5-10 total and 5-10 of those are in the shop, then it is more of an issue for me at least.
While I'm sure some want to play 100% free, that is almost never the case and at some point cash has to be handed over. For me, it isn't about having to pay $10-15 a month, but what I get for that. If I'm going to spend X dollars every month, regardless if it is a sub or cash shop, I'd like some say in what I get. When I'm just blindly being charged monthly, I'm getting whatever the devs feel like giving me. When it is through a shop, I pick and choose what I get on top of what ever the devs give for free.
Another thing is, When it is subscription only you kind of have more of a "I'm in a new virtual world" type feel, Cash Shops completely take that feeling away IMO makes it seem more dull and less meaningful. Think about it the only "successful" free to play MMO is guild wars 2 and there population flopped within a few months going from millions to only a steady 100,000 players or less. Seeing as Everquest 1 shined in its glory days as a paid to play, I just don't see it having the same vibe with EQ Next.. The only reason Cash Shops are so big now with gaming companies is because of League of Legends, straight and simple. But league's gameplay is perfect for a cash shop, because it is a MOBA.. MMO's copying that idea just do not have the same impact.
I think it has quite a lot more to do with society in general then just LoL or previous games. Free-$1 apps on phones/tablets, IAP, DLC for consoles and PC games, cash shops on every screen and every genre, $1 songs, etc. People don't seem to like having to fork over for a total package when they only want a small piece of at least some say in what they get at a certain point.
I agree that shops take away from the immersion, but as they've proven to be money makers, there isn't any going back if a company wants to make a decent profit (obviously they determine what that is). I have no problem paying a sub, but that game better be pretty close to perfect, frequent content updates/patches, ongoing support, yadda yadda. Which seems to be pretty hard for companies to do on sub fees.
When it comes to EQN, I'll probably go the sub route if the perks are worth it and it removes the immersion breaking ads and what not.
Just my opinion, played every MMO since 1997 and I just don't see the F2P thing working out for anyone. From what i've seen so far EQ Next is going to be a beautiful, epic LOOKING, buggy, fail.
While I haven't played "every" mmo, I've played plenty in the last ~20 years and I'm on the other side of the fence. If done well, which is the the tricky part, a F2P design can work. No system will be perfect for everyone.
I've yet to have a terrible experience in a F2P (at release) game, compared to the long list of sub games I pre-ordered, bought collectors editions for, and basically rolled the dice and lost over and over. Paying $50-60+ and a sub for the promise of a quality finished product doesn't sound as good as paying little to nothing until I'm ready in a F2P that is also promising a quality finished product.
MMORPG's of the future seem to remind me more and more of a Las Vegas slot machine, Put money in, get a short high, put more money in get another short high. It's pretty sad really.
I agree, but that is game by game issue and has to do with the companies behind them. Valve for example is pretty good. MOBAs as well. Most of those games are very enjoyable and playable with little to knowing thrown at the slot machine. But it's always there for those that want a bit of a boost.
P.S. Allen there isnt a damn thing sony will ever sell you for .50-1.00.. Items will be anywhere from 5-20 dollars a pop. Dont believe me play some planetside 2, or EQ Landmark, or EQ 2.. prices are hefty Hell if you would of bought your quote "15 items a month" in PS2 you would have spent well over $150-$200 LOL Thats about a year and a half worth of gameplay in a subscription based game @ $15.00 a month.
What are you buying though? Convenience/short cuts, boosts, paywall only items, vanity, etc? I don't have EQ/PS2 currently installed, but Landmark does have plenty of $1-5 items, under $1 player items, and $10 seems to be the max for the majority, player or dev created.
While Player Studio is available for other games, I think Landmark/EQN will take it much further which will allow for prices to be more reasonable overall. Like I said though, if someone wants to drop $10+ on a sword skin or a mount or whatever vanity stuff, good for them. As long as I get it or something similar within the game without much fuss, I won't complain too much. If it means a better game in the long term, it's a win for everyone.
Really comes down to our personal limits on what we'll accept. Some people find being able to buy inventory slots or skins to be P2W, some people want to buy maxed out characters. If SOE can balance it out where no one way is THE way, they could have a fun and profitable product.
If I drop $200 in one sitting on a game, I'm assuming I won't "need" to do so ever again. This to me is vital. Is the store there to provide "needs" or "wants" that players feel forced/obligated to buy? TF2, GW2, PS2, I've never felt the "need" to buy anything, I do so because it adds a bit of fun.
This is a rather complex discussion that would probably serve perfectly well as topic to a thesis at university. Which brings me to a very basic point, I would like to make here. No one can really say how well F2P does in comparison to P2P. No one has the data or worked in a company with close to equal conditions to provide a suitable comparison ground. So, all we can do here is speculate, based on our own personal experience - which is always a shaky ground to do that on.
However, there are several facts that indicate that there are no reasons for EQN not to be successful as a F2P title. Most important of which is the fact that SOE is already running several successful F2P games. That experience alone should give faith in their skills as publisher. There were titles that did not run well, and SOE took them off the net. Another sign that SOE is working properly and profitably.
Originally posted by Thebeasttt Every game is worse with F2P the question is whether EQN is good enough to use P2P. After seeing the combat I'm going to go with no.
And where did you see EQN combat exactly? [mod edit]
Comments
I guess your must consider 10 million subs in WoW a small number.
or the 2.5 million playing FF14
or the over 1 million playing ESO
Technically only 3.5 million or whatever play WoW as a sub. Asia including China, which constitute over half the announced "subscriptions", don't allow subscriptions but follow a paid time card business model of WoW.
Also many MMOs don't have the regional access that WoW does. FF14 only a few months ago released a Chinese version of FF14, WS still hasn't but its in the near future, and don't know if ESO even has released a version for that region.
And really if you're over 300k subs then you're doing very very VERY well.
For WoW's raging success with sub numbers then why does it seem that they are no where putting into the game that it should be? Classes are horrendously unbalance that has been said through all of beta, total crap for content outside of garrison and Highmaul for lvl capped toons, no additional BGs or Arenas, crafting being total garbage. If your game has millions upon millions of paying customers, one would think your product would be amazing instead of the current stated where its a mixed bag it seems like.
That was your own dumb fault for jumping on the bandwagon.
I said before it all started it was a mistake but there really was no other option for games that people will simply not subscribe too.
Soe had fallen out of favor badly ,so cash shop was their saving grace.They figure that with the following that does stick by then they can make more than a sub fee off those players.The other and imo ONLY downside of a subscription model is the numbers are out there and that can really hurt a game.It is easier to hide numbers ,although gamer's still notice if servers are empty.
Cash shop is such a bad business model,it is nothing but a guessing game ,so the developer is going to work around that by delivering less quality.
EVERY single cash shop i have seen is over the top,asking for too much money.I choose to not support the idea at all as i am sure many others are in the same boat.However it won't make Soe or others change,they have no other option,people won't support their product if have to subscribe because remember most also have active Wow subs as well as wanting to play other games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The good thing about a cash shop is you can make the choice not to support it. The only way a free to play game hurts you in this event is if it's necessary to purchase things to progress or compete but many games have used cash shops without going overboard and in some cases only sold cosmetic items. You may think all cash shops ask for too much money but the reason they are becoming the norm is because enough people don't agree with you and as such they essentially pay for your game time.
PS And ofcourse they had a choice. They could have charged a box and subs and given into the inevitable (if necessary) in the end after robbing people like alot of p2p MMOs of late.
What do you consider "too much money?"
LoL, Dota2, TF2, CS:GO, PS2, Smite, GW2 are all pretty fair to me. Obviously FPS/MOBA aren't mmorpgs, but I think the same design can work in other genres. GW2 even though B2P, has a decent shop, not sure, but I'm assuming without the box, they could still do okay. Not sure how other mmorpg shops are doing, but assuming they can't be too terrible if they are still open for business with paying customers.
I think one thing SOE has that other companies either lack or have barely gone after, is Player Studio. Player created shop items are a huge deal. Valve knows this and even their system is pretty limited.
If the shop has potentially hundreds/thousands of items to purchase, it's just a numbers game. Enough money will be tossed at the screen to keep everyone fairly happy and prices can stay within the reasonable zone.
I'd much rather buy 15-30 items a month at $.50-1 then pay a flat sub if it means I get the same quality experience, but extra fluff on top. Especially if I know some of that is going towards fellow players and creative folks.
For me, as long as the game isn't designed with huge paywalls, I'm fine with shop items being a big draw and source of income. If I can't play without paying, that is no different then a sub, most likely just costs more total in smaller chunks. Problem is, many games go this route or P2W where you are left behind unless forking over cash constantly.
My ideal system would have things to purchase that I "want" instead of "need" and that add to an already great FREE experience. It's a lot to hope for, but we'll see where SOE goes.
Any free to play MMO is just fail, The absurd argument that seems to get thrown around a lot is that Cash Shops are better because they would rather not spend a monthly fee of $10-15 a month. The fact of the matter is if the game is going to have cash shops rather than subscription than theyre whole premise is to make sure that the players will absolutely at some point need to spend money to become top tier in the game/look the best ect and put more focus on that than on real immersive fun group oriented gameplay. To me that is not what how a true MMO is meant to be. In an MMO I should never come to a situation where a noob has better armor/looking armor than myself when I worked for hours and hours to obtain my gear while he threw a credit card at a Cash Shop and called it a day.
Another thing is, When it is subscription only you kind of have more of a "I'm in a new virtual world" type feel, Cash Shops completely take that feeling away IMO makes it seem more dull and less meaningful. Think about it the only "successful" free to play MMO is guild wars 2 and there population flopped within a few months going from millions to only a steady 100,000 players or less. Seeing as Everquest 1 shined in its glory days as a paid to play, I just don't see it having the same vibe with EQ Next.. The only reason Cash Shops are so big now with gaming companies is because of League of Legends, straight and simple. But league's gameplay is perfect for a cash shop, because it is a MOBA.. MMO's copying that idea just do not have the same impact.
Just my opinion, played every MMO since 1997 and I just don't see the F2P thing working out for anyone. From what i've seen so far EQ Next is going to be a beautiful, epic LOOKING, buggy, fail.
MMORPG's of the future seem to remind me more and more of a Las Vegas slot machine, Put money in, get a short high, put more money in get another short high. It's pretty sad really.
P.S. Allen there isnt a damn thing sony will ever sell you for .50-1.00.. Items will be anywhere from 5-20 dollars a pop. Dont believe me play some planetside 2, or EQ Landmark, or EQ 2.. prices are hefty Hell if you would of bought your quote "15 items a month" in PS2 you would have spent well over $150-$200 LOL Thats about a year and a half worth of gameplay in a subscription based game @ $15.00 a month.
Answer to the title: Yes
Over and out.
This is a rather complex discussion that would probably serve perfectly well as topic to a thesis at university. Which brings me to a very basic point, I would like to make here. No one can really say how well F2P does in comparison to P2P. No one has the data or worked in a company with close to equal conditions to provide a suitable comparison ground. So, all we can do here is speculate, based on our own personal experience - which is always a shaky ground to do that on.
However, there are several facts that indicate that there are no reasons for EQN not to be successful as a F2P title. Most important of which is the fact that SOE is already running several successful F2P games. That experience alone should give faith in their skills as publisher. There were titles that did not run well, and SOE took them off the net. Another sign that SOE is working properly and profitably.
And where did you see EQN combat exactly? [mod edit]
"stupidity is its own reward"