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Example of a Realistic art-style for EQN?

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  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by iridescence

     If EQ:N is heavily cartoon it'll turn me off a bit but I'll still play it if the gameplay is good I guess.

    I think that is pretty much the conclusion many will come to.

    It's hard to accept, but the games I posted above are simply geared towards a smaller group. No different then fantasy movies that despite being "good", make little at the box office because they only appeal to a small crowd. Good luck getting Aunt Susan to go watch Gladiator without tossing in some eye candy actors.

    SOE could of went after the die hard EQ fans or mature fantasy crowd, but they want to make money, plain and simple. Only way they are going to bring in young/old, vets/noobs, casual/hardcore, and various gaming backgrounds is to make it as accessible as possible.

    He mentioned in the video that stylized/cartoony graphics appeal to soccer moms, younger/older generations, and larger demographics. While we personally might not care if Jane the soccer mom plays EQN, I'm betting SOE does. EQ games have always been accessible to a variety of folks (at least over time they have), no clue why EQN would go for a limited fan base now. They are in the business of making money, not making sure some of our personal tastes are catered to, especially when after all the huffing and puffing is over with, most will still give it a try.

    Which is why I get a kick out of some of the very critical folks, even those that swear they won't play EQN, still spend time commenting and complaining about a game they aren't going to play. Bluffing online doesn't accomplish much. Even if they uninstall after 5 minutes of playing, over time enough people will stick around that those turning their backs won't count for much.

         But the thing is...  The entire defense of using this cartoon style of art only applies to the characters..  The world itself is realistic, and to me that is a contradiction in art styles and is visually confusing..  Secondly, soccer mom's might like the cartoony look, but soccer moms do NOT like twitch shooter combat.. Again, more contradiction within SOE as to "who" they are targeting and why? 

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I know we all see things differently, literally, but IMO the environment in Landmark/EQN matches the characters perfectly. In regards to the general art style I think universal accessibility is a pretty good plan. Look at any "top ten" list of PC games and you'll find soft/smooth/stylized graphics. While I'd play a more realistic looking EQ3 I like EQN's look just fine. I think the amount of people who actually won't play die to the graphics will be very small.

    Regarding the combat? If they can't pull off a good reticle system they could always do a hybrid "smart targeting" system like Skyforge. Even without it though I look forward to a more immersive experience. IMO of course.
  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Giffen Originally posted by bcbully This instead of 
    Exactly! It makes me want to vomit what they did to the EQ franchise with the Disney art style.
    ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks 

    Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.

     



    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Nadia images from 2011 -- before it was scrapped http://www.eqnforum.com/threads/eqnext-screen-shots-and-concept-art-update-obsolete-as-of-2012.11/#post-2278 '
    This IMO looked better than anything after the revamp.

     



    Those examples (and others mentioned) are still stylized and not realistic imo.

    The common thing here is most of these examples are low fantasy with en emphasis on mature content such as blood splatter ect.

    If you look at landmark currently The environments match much of the examples but where they differ is in the faces of the avatars.

    image
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  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,775
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by DMKano

    Originally posted by Giffen

    Originally posted by bcbully This instead of 
    Exactly! It makes me want to vomit what they did to the EQ franchise with the Disney art style.
    ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks 

     

    Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.

     



    Originally posted by DMKano

    Originally posted by Nadia images from 2011 -- before it was scrapped http://www.eqnforum.com/threads/eqnext-screen-shots-and-concept-art-update-obsolete-as-of-2012.11/#post-2278 '
    This IMO looked better than anything after the revamp.

     

     


     


    Those examples (and others mentioned) are still stylized and not realistic imo.

    The common thing here is most of these examples are low fantasy with en emphasis on mature content such as blood splatter ect.

    If you look at landmark currently The environments match much of the examples but where they differ is in the faces of the avatars.

    About as realistic as you can get

    Stylized

    The EQN style can work, it's not bad, but it will be an uphill battle from the start to win over those who prefer a realistic look.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,897
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  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by DMKano

    Originally posted by Giffen

    Originally posted by bcbully This instead of  Exactly! It makes me want to vomit what they did to the EQ franchise with the Disney art style. ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks    Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.  
    Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by Nadia images from 2011 -- before it was scrapped http://www.eqnforum.com/threads/eqnext-screen-shots-and-concept-art-update-obsolete-as-of-2012.11/#post-2278 '
    This IMO looked better than anything after the revamp.    
      Those examples (and others mentioned) are still stylized and not realistic imo. The common thing here is most of these examples are low fantasy with en emphasis on mature content such as blood splatter ect. If you look at landmark currently The environments match much of the examples but where they differ is in the faces of the avatars.
    About as realistic as you can get

    Stylized

    The EQN style can work, it's not bad, but it will be an uphill battle from the start to win over those who prefer a realistic look.


    For comparison (even tho EQNL is at night)

    image

    image

    image

    Similar overall style and from that perspective the avatar is almost identical.

    Armor is as detailed as what you posted, Its just not as low fantasy as yours.
    What is the most disappointing about eqnl is the "Pastyness" of the characters faces.
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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,742
    Personally I like the art style. Looking at how well WoW has aged over games like EQ1 and EQ2. Or any game that went for a more real look tells me as a gamer that stylized graphics is the best rout for a MMO. Console games not so much as that type of game has a short shelf life. 



  • KnyttaKnytta Member UncommonPosts: 404

    And the most common complaint about EQ2 is the horrible, plastic outdated models. They where cutting edge realistic when EQ2 launched. Go and download 2 movies, The Incredibles and Polar Express, both are good successful animated movies (when they launched) that was released the same year. Polar Express looks horribly dated nowadays with its realistic looking characters but Incredibles stills looks good.

    Unfortunately realism is not the way to go.

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         But the thing is...  The entire defense of using this cartoon style of art only applies to the characters..  The world itself is realistic, and to me that is a contradiction in art styles and is visually confusing..  Secondly, soccer mom's might like the cartoony look, but soccer moms do NOT like twitch shooter combat.. Again, more contradiction within SOE as to "who" they are targeting and why? 

    Have you played Landmark? Not sure where you are seeing anything "realistic". Please point out a screen shot or video that shows how the character models and world don't mesh together.

    I agree that soccer moms might not like twitch shooter combat, good thing EQN isn't twitch shooter combat =)

    Although I believe the action/aim style will cut back on who it will appeal to, not so much as going with a totally different art style geared towards mature men. I'm doubting the combat will be what you think where only the most nimble wristed gamers will excel.

    Edit:

    Characters seem to work with the world just fine in these videos and beyond our personal preferences, I don't know of many mmorpgs that have the same quality at release that EQN had in the early stages with this tech demo. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh_0neHhR0k&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgPuEl5Nuk&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Nitth


    What is the most disappointing about eqnl is the "Pastyness" of the characters faces.

    I think that is what is really getting to people.

    Overall the world, armor, skills, bodies aren't too crazy out there or Disney like. It is the faces. 

    While I believe the LM/EQN faces can and do work for the most part, they could really use some defined lines, age, scars, imperfections, shadowing, etc that we see in most other games. Basically give the characters some character when zooming in on the face.

    Regardless if they are going for oversized eyes/mouth for SOEmote and slightly larger hands/feed to go with the "heroic" design, I think the faces simply need more definition. The cartoonish proportions are needed to make emotions and the "life" of the characters to be easily seen, up close or from a distance. Unlike almost every other game with the blank stare or mouths that barely move.

    EQN/LM faces look like someone got a little too happy with the make up kit and removed all the natural look. Not as plastic looking as EQ2, but they can improve quite a lot. My hope is that between now and release they work on them and along with the character creation tools, we can get some more unique looks going on, be it they are more realistic or mature or whatever people are wanting in a video game designed for everyone.

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636

    I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause.  I see I was wrong.

     

    While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.

     

    Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.

     

    I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,618
    And SOEmote will continue to not be used by the vast majority of players. It brings nothing to the table and is a waste of resources.. They dont need it for NPCs and players dont use it in their current games and being slightly more noticeable isnt going to change anything for Landmark or Next. So that brings us all the way back around to the hideous over exaggerated facial features and why they should be changed.
  • aftabbooaftabboo Member Posts: 67

    For me, graphics are really important in a video game.

     

    I know it sounds shallow and for a long time I refused to believe I thought this way but I have tried a whole host of mmorpgs since WoW and the 10 year old graphics of most of these games really ruined the immersion factor for me especially as Im used to playing on such better graphics nowadays.

     

    Having said that, Everquest next actually has decent graphics and is good enough for me to play and look at and play without thinking wow these are 10 year old graphics for a super lame pc.

     

    I would like them to be better ofc but I expect bad graphics from mmorpgs as standard so any improvement let alone 1 as big as everquest nexts is a good one.

     

    I wish all mmo rpgs had graphics as good as the division though.

  • aftabbooaftabboo Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by reeereee

    I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause.  I see I was wrong.

     

    While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.

     

    Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.

     

    I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.

    Oh yeh wildstar failed for a number of reasons including its terrible identical to wow graphics when people expect more nowadays but everuest next has better graphics than the final fantasy you mention by a mile.

     

    You got to bear in mind you have to look at the actual official released videos to see an example of what eq next will look like and not everquest landmark videos which are in beta and just a building tool.

    As for non realistic graphics, I think they are here to stay, people don't have a problem with wow not trying to look realistic but fantasy instead, I doubt they will have a problem with everquest doing the same.

     

    Btw everquest next is not trying to copy wow. its 100% the opposite of wow.

     

    It has ai with motivations which wow doesn't, wow follows the pre programmed ai model with a go here, kill x mobs model.

    It has a fully destructible environment so you can fight an enemy, break the floor or a wall and fall into a cave or pull another group, wow has no environment reaction at all.

    It has 30 classes at launch and the class system is new. For example you learn classes in game rather than selecting them at the start so you can find a hermit in a swamp to teach you a class bvut afgter he does he wont want to be bothered as he is a hermit so he will move to another area. You don't just use 1 class, you multi class and different weapons have different skill features. This is completely different to the wow tank, dps, healer class system as you can have stuff like a teleporting warrior or a stealth mage etc by misxing classes.

    The graphics are actually next gen, you cant see that unless you look at the official videos but some of the official videws sho character and environment  features up close which are far beyond wow obviously.

    It uses a free running system of travel so you can actually climb and leap over objects.

     

    As for the ai motivations, they have done a storyboard example of who it works, ai factions have motivations and try to conquer each others regions if they succeed, something new happens like in the example when the dark elves manage to invade the dryad woods and set free an ancient evil by mistake the dryads were holding back which then decimated both dark elves and dryads. That's not a programmed routine, that was a super speeded up simulation of the ai working according to its motivations  but iff the simulation was run again, it could turn out completely differently.

     

    There is more I want to write but its getting too long.

     

    There are other differences at all but the underlying effect is that its not a wow clone, its not a past gen mmo. its a next gen mmo.

     

     

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Moar61Moar61 Member UncommonPosts: 260

    I don't mind EQN's art style so long as everything is crisp and not muddy. 

     

    I don't think realistic art-styles are quite there yet for mmos. ESO does a great job of walking a fine line in my opinion. 

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405

    The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.

    It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.

     

    It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.

     

     

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  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by Archlyte
    The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded. It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.  

    That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.

    Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.

    image
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  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.

    Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.

    ArcheAge and ESO have my favorite graphics for MMOs and GW2 was nice as well  so like a combination of those  games mixed with EQ art style. But they're gonna do what they're gonna do and like the other person said, that  cartoony graphic style actually does attract some people (just look at how many adults watch those Pixar movies) plus it makes it so the game can run on a toaster (which I think is the main reason they do it).

     

  • BigbooBigboo Member Posts: 201
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Why do people continuously make the assumption that stylized = cartoony.

    All stylized means is not realistic.

    Realistic:

     

    Why is this difficult to understand?

    Ehhh what happend with his ehrm... you now... center parts... not so manly, or wait is it empty!?

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  • BigbooBigboo Member Posts: 201
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.

    Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.

    ArcheAge and ESO have my favorite graphics for MMOs and GW2 was nice as well  so like a combination of those  games mixed with EQ art style. But they're gonna do what they're gonna do and like the other person said, that  cartoony graphic style actually does attract some people (just look at how many adults watch those Pixar movies) plus it makes it so the game can run on a toaster (which I think is the main reason they do it).

     

    I just love the Graphics in ESO, its my favorite.

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  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by aftabboo
    Originally posted by reeereee

    I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause.  I see I was wrong.

     

    While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.

     

    Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.

     

    I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.

    Oh yeh wildstar failed for a number of reasons including its terrible identical to wow graphics when people expect more nowadays but everuest next has better graphics than the final fantasy you mention by a mile.

     

     [snip.]

     

    There are other differences at all but the underlying effect is that its not a wow clone, its not a past gen mmo. its a next gen mmo.

    I see my point went over your head, I was referring to people who made the equivocation that because WoW is successful and WoW has cartoony graphics that cartoony graphics make a game successful or are necessary to be successful.

     

    And no EQN's Disney graphics are going to look like garbage next to FFXIV's graphics.  The awkward characters that look like they just fell out the latest Dreamworks cartoon are not going to compare to characters that actually look like real people.

     

    Also save yourself some embarrassment and quit talking about "nex gen" people have been saying that about almost every new mmo for the last 6 years and every last person who has talked about it has been wrong.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,666
    MMOs can't handle non-stylized graphics, as seen in the Modern Warfare multiplayer lag issues.  Developers know this.  The only people calling for non-stylized graphics are those trying to exploit the lag for their advantage, or hardware manufacturers trying to use the lag to sell modern gear.

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  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Archlyte
    The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.

     

    It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.

     

    It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.

     

     


     

    That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.

    Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.

    What adjectives would you like me to use then? It looks like a child's movie, and it's a crap choice for a game that kids will not be playing in any large numbers. There have been many threads detailing exactly what is wrong with the graphics. If you don't know what I'm saying just look at my avatar, I designed it just for this topic.

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  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Konfess
    MMOs can't handle non-stylized graphics, as seen in the Modern Warfare multiplayer lag issues.  Developers know this.  The only people calling for non-stylized graphics are those trying to exploit the lag for their advantage, or hardware manufacturers trying to use the lag to sell modern gear.

         I seriously doubt there is a mass conspiracy out there of elite computer users trying to exploit graphics lag to win..  I honestly don't care about which direction EQN goes, as long as it all fits together..  Currently my problem with EQN graphics is the nonconforming graphics quality between "environment" and "character"...  The world which includes everything from bushes, trees to buildings, is realism.. But then you put a cartoon type character into that world and they just don't match..  Take a look at WoW for example, a cartoon world with cartoon characters.. I'm ok with that..

         I do have to say I'm not happy EQN is following EQ2's footsteps in allowing players to play non-humanoid races..  I was never happy when frogs and lizards became playable in EQ1, and EQ2 went overboard.. MY GOD, playing a butterfly?  Really?  Grrrrrrr  I prefer a traditional playable race.. What's next, players playing a Treant?  (WoW did it).. lol 

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