The title pretty much sums up my feelings about Archeage. This game has a ton of different features which is cool, unfortunately it doesn't do any of these features great. I am going to present the major features of AA and give my opinion on each.
1. PvE - Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution. As far as dungeons go this game can't hold a candle to games like FFXIV, WoW, and even Wildstar.
2. PvP - This is arguably the main focus of AA but again the execution is just missing something. PvP in this game relies too heavily on CC, basically in a 1 v 1 the player with the most CC will win. Outside of 1 v 1 most open world PvP is just groups of zergers running around PKing smaller groups. In addition to all the CC and zerging there is no lag compensation which large scale PvP even more of a joke. Most group vs. group PvP is about popping defensive CD's and using AoE if you're melee or staying at ranged and using AoE if you're ranged. No real skill is required.
3. Land Ownership - Awesome idea, horrible implementation. I have been playing since pre-release and I am still unable to procure anything larger than an 8 x 8. For starters day one was all about grabbing as much land as physically possible so you had people rolling 3 - 4 alts grabbing up land within 2 hours of launch. Since launch whenever a plot goes up for sale basically botters grab it up before real people can. Again, XL and Trion could have remedied this situation fairly easily by limiting land per account but instead they have done nothing.
4. Farming - This games implementation of farming is a watered down version of Farmville. Nothing else really needs to be said.
5. Crafting - This feature is a prime example of P2W, anyone that says otherwise is just delusional. Crafting requires LP which are generated at a higher rate when you are a patron, 2 can be replenished every 12 hours by purchasing pots from the cash shop, which can be used by all toons on your account every 12 hours. The last part is what totally gives it away, LP is shared across all characters but each character can use a pot every 12 hours. So if I have 6 characters that's double the LP each day, if I spend enough real money of course.
So in my opinion, yes AA has tons of features but none of those features are done really well. If you are into PvE you can find better in WoW, Wildstar, FFXIV. If you are into PvP you can find better in ESO, Darkfall, and possibly even WoW. If you are into crafting (without spending tons of real money) FFXIV has a way better system. And last if you are into farming, Farmville.
I tend to agree with this...you can do everything, however none of it is epic. The pvp is rather broken...open world peace times are stupid. Lack of a guild war system makes no sense for a so called sandbox. The pve is pretty bad period. The crafting is probably the shining point in AA, but then broken with the labor system...lol.
The crafting isn't even good. Its the gathering that is good. Crafting itself is just simply combining. Games like FFXIV and Vanguard had better crafting. SWG managed to have great gathering but also have crafting be more than just simple combining.
Yea, you are correct actually
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
The title pretty much sums up my feelings about Archeage. This game has a ton of different features which is cool, unfortunately it doesn't do any of these features great. I am going to present the major features of AA and give my opinion on each.
1. PvE - Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution. As far as dungeons go this game can't hold a candle to games like FFXIV, WoW, and even Wildstar.
1. Pve - The other thing about AA Pve is that it lacks the challenge. Thus it makes it a button-smashing kind of experience. The dungeons are pretty simple and very old school. Hardly much challenge other than the levels or the gear grind if you have done it through crafting. Not much scope of role-playing and most BOSSES can be bugged or glitched.
2. PvP - This is arguably the main focus of AA but again the execution is just missing something. PvP in this game relies too heavily on CC, basically in a 1 v 1 the player with the most CC will win. Outside of 1 v 1 most open world PvP is just groups of zergers running around PKing smaller groups. In addition to all the CC and zerging there is no lag compensation which large scale PvP even more of a joke. Most group vs. group PvP is about popping defensive CD's and using AoE if you're melee or staying at ranged and using AoE if you're ranged. No real skill is required.
2. PvP - 1 v 1 PvP without lag might find some meaning. The open world is too much zerging and too much laggy. The archer class is OP and thus a group of archers is pretty over-kill. PK part of the drill is quite a turn off specially when your own faction can PK you. Produces a lot of frustrating times, when you find yourself questing at half health and someone just Pk'ed you from a great distance and you have no chance to retaliate.Sadly AA Pvp lacks meaningful skill based game-play though it is a Pvp game.
3. Land Ownership - Awesome idea, horrible implementation. I have been playing since pre-release and I am still unable to procure anything larger than an 8 x 8. For starters day one was all about grabbing as much land as physically possible so you had people rolling 3 - 4 alts grabbing up land within 2 hours of launch. Since launch whenever a plot goes up for sale basically botters grab it up before real people can. Again, XL and Trion could have remedied this situation fairly easily by limiting land per account but instead they have done nothing.
3. Land Ownership - I have played games like mystical lands / villagers and heroes and it was never a problem to find a house or land. I am amazed this game is unable to support land to it's players thus limiting even the patrons and sub based population from gaining land while some could hack into multiple. This is a serious issue along with other issues of hacks and cheats. Xl and Trion did nothing much to keep the player base.
4. Farming - This games implementation of farming is a watered down version of Farmville. Nothing else really needs to be said.
4. Farming - I have seen way detailed versions of farmings.
5. Crafting - This feature is a prime example of P2W, anyone that says otherwise is just delusional. Crafting requires LP which are generated at a higher rate when you are a patron, 2 can be replenished every 12 hours by purchasing pots from the cash shop, which can be used by all toons on your account every 12 hours. The last part is what totally gives it away, LP is shared across all characters but each character can use a pot every 12 hours. So if I have 6 characters that's double the LP each day, if I spend enough real money of course.
5. Crafting - This chapter is the AA killer. After all that material gathering and hours of wasted time you end up with RNG. This is ridiculous correct. The labor point issue is another game mechanics which makes you stay online just to get some labor points back. I played the F2P version and it sucks to be not able to get any offline labor point regeneration. The trade runs being dependent on this system makes it very difficult to find anything productive to do without labor points, other than ofcourse stealing and PKing low levels. That labor point sharing part is designed to sell labor pots and it's a shame to make a game so heavily into Pay To Win model. I am yet to see a better Pay To Win game. This is by far the best Pay To Win game that I ever played.
So in my opinion, yes AA has tons of features but none of those features are done really well. If you are into PvE you can find better in WoW, Wildstar, FFXIV. If you are into PvP you can find better in ESO, Darkfall, and possibly even WoW. If you are into crafting (without spending tons of real money) FFXIV has a way better system. And last if you are into farming, Farmville.
The only opinion I can hold for this game is GOOD-LUCK. AA is an old game re-modelled into some new features. The graphics and the UI are very old fashioned though it is a 2014 release. There are tons of better F2P models and playable Hybrid payment models with way better gaming experience to be offered.
Cheers Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
I will agree that the crafting is lackluster. Theres no mini-game to it, there is simply gather the ingredients and hit a button. Vanguard had wonderful crafting, even EQ2 had a unique system. The only good thing about the crafting here is that it is actually meaningful (ie Best in slot).
As to the whole Pay to win in crafting, players are still living in a make-believe world of "what-ifs". Just because you can buy alittle extra labor, doesnt automagically give you a full set of Delphinad gear. There isnt a single person in the game that has Delph, not one piece, let alone a full set. Just because a person "could" spend 15k dollars doesnt mean they have or will. Even if you do, you still only have a chance at getting what you are looking for. It could easily cost you over 25k for a single piece, but noone is ever going to do that.
What is happening, is people are starting to build up some Magnificents. Maybe even an Ephirium or two, nowhere near an entire set of either, and they are lucky if 3 pieces are Celestial or higher. There isnt a single Mythic anything on any server right now. There are server wide messages for anything Celestial or higher.
Personally I have 90k tailoring. I am working on completing my own set of Magnificents. Havent even started Ephirium, let alone Delphinad. So I pretty much have the best on the server right now. I also have a full set of GHA gear, cloth and plate. Which is equal (and in some cases better) than the Mag. pieces I have. And those are dropped in a dungeon, not crafted. Oh and did I mention I havent spent a dime in the game yet?
So while you live in your delusional world where "some random whales are spending tens of thousands of dollars" to get best in slot items and making this game Pay to Win, the rest of us are playing on the Trion servers, where noone has any best in slot anything, PVP is actually fun (not onesided or OP), and some of us havent spent a cent to be competitive. But thats cool, enjoy your make-believe pay to win servers, let me know how that works out for you, ok?
I will agree that the crafting is lackluster. Theres no mini-game to it, there is simply gather the ingredients and hit a button. Vanguard had wonderful crafting, even EQ2 had a unique system. The only good thing about the crafting here is that it is actually meaningful (ie Best in slot).
As to the whole Pay to win in crafting, players are still living in a make-believe world of "what-ifs". Just because you can buy alittle extra labor, doesnt automagically give you a full set of Delphinad gear. There isnt a single person in the game that has Delph, not one piece, let alone a full set. Just because a person "could" spend 15k dollars doesnt mean they have or will. Even if you do, you still only have a chance at getting what you are looking for. It could easily cost you over 25k for a single piece, but noone is ever going to do that.
What is happening, is people are starting to build up some Magnificents. Maybe even an Ephirium or two, nowhere near an entire set of either, and they are lucky if 3 pieces are Celestial or higher. There isnt a single Mythic anything on any server right now. There are server wide messages for anything Celestial or higher.
Personally I have 90k tailoring. I am working on completing my own set of Magnificents. Havent even started Ephirium, let alone Delphinad. So I pretty much have the best on the server right now. I also have a full set of GHA gear, cloth and plate. Which is equal (and in some cases better) than the Mag. pieces I have. And those are dropped in a dungeon, not crafted. Oh and did I mention I havent spent a dime in the game yet?
So while you live in your delusional world where "some random whales are spending tens of thousands of dollars" to get best in slot items and making this game Pay to Win, the rest of us are playing on the Trion servers, where noone has any best in slot anything, PVP is actually fun (not onesided or OP), and some of us havent spent a cent to be competitive. But thats cool, enjoy your make-believe pay to win servers, let me know how that works out for you, ok?
I doubt that.
Lies, All Lies !!!
Cheers Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
The title pretty much sums up my feelings about Archeage. This game has a ton of different features which is cool, unfortunately it doesn't do any of these features great. I am going to present the major features of AA and give my opinion on each.
1. PvE - Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution. As far as dungeons go this game can't hold a candle to games like FFXIV, WoW, and even Wildstar.
1. Pve - The other thing about AA Pve is that it lacks the challenge. Thus it makes it a button-smashing kind of experience. The dungeons are pretty simple and very old school. Hardly much challenge other than the levels or the gear grind if you have done it through crafting. Not much scope of role-playing and most BOSSES can be bugged or glitched.
2. PvP - This is arguably the main focus of AA but again the execution is just missing something. PvP in this game relies too heavily on CC, basically in a 1 v 1 the player with the most CC will win. Outside of 1 v 1 most open world PvP is just groups of zergers running around PKing smaller groups. In addition to all the CC and zerging there is no lag compensation which large scale PvP even more of a joke. Most group vs. group PvP is about popping defensive CD's and using AoE if you're melee or staying at ranged and using AoE if you're ranged. No real skill is required.
2. PvP - 1 v 1 PvP without lag might find some meaning. The open world is too much zerging and too much laggy. The archer class is OP and thus a group of archers is pretty over-kill. PK part of the drill is quite a turn off specially when your own faction can PK you. Produces a lot of frustrating times, when you find yourself questing at half health and someone just Pk'ed you from a great distance and you have no chance to retaliate.Sadly AA Pvp lacks meaningful skill based game-play though it is a Pvp game.
3. Land Ownership - Awesome idea, horrible implementation. I have been playing since pre-release and I am still unable to procure anything larger than an 8 x 8. For starters day one was all about grabbing as much land as physically possible so you had people rolling 3 - 4 alts grabbing up land within 2 hours of launch. Since launch whenever a plot goes up for sale basically botters grab it up before real people can. Again, XL and Trion could have remedied this situation fairly easily by limiting land per account but instead they have done nothing.
3. Land Ownership - I have played games like mystical lands / villagers and heroes and it was never a problem to find a house or land. I am amazed this game is unable to support land to it's players thus limiting even the patrons and sub based population from gaining land while some could hack into multiple. This is a serious issue along with other issues of hacks and cheats. Xl and Trion did nothing much to keep the player base.
4. Farming - This games implementation of farming is a watered down version of Farmville. Nothing else really needs to be said.
4. Farming - I have seen way detailed versions of farmings.
Everything here is pretty spot on.
1. PVE - The PVE is definately lacking something. It is a huge throwback to "old school" MMOs. Back when buttonmashing and hotbar spam was "cool". You wont see any new fancy "action combat" here, or even simply dodging or rolling, which newer MMOs have switched to. The dungeons are well done, but very short and lack challenge. I believe this to be deliberate, since the games main focus is PVP. PVE was just a way to easily get "starter" gear and keep everyone on a somewhat level playing field, until some of the higher crafted tiers can be made.
2. PVP falls to many of the same pitfalls. Instead of the newer systems of "limited skill sets", in which you have to pick and choose your build carefully, this is more old school again, in that you can load up multiple hotbars with alittle of everything. You have room for AOE, single target nukes, CC, heals, whatever you got, you can put it on your bar. It definitely takes something away when everyone can do everything, and becomes more of a "CC then nuke", and not reaction to the situation. I know theres alot of hate out there for new MMOs have only give you 4-6 skills, but this is why. It does add strategy and options to builds, not take them away. I know thats confusing to some, but in this case, less is more.
3. Land can be a huge issue. In the first few days of the server, everyone was scrambling to get as much as they could. Problem was that the server had so many issues, some could get way more than others, and in many cases, more than they needed. I personally know people in my guild with 14+ properties ( i think one guy has 20). This is disgusting, and there needed to be an account max. Sure a person could just make more accounts, but they would be paying out the ass to keep them all Patron. I got the land I wanted, but many were no so lucky. And now that the initial rush is over, its plagued with bots and hacks getting all the expiring land. If it werent for that, this would actually be a fun system, and land would have been more evenly distributed. Luckily, there is always an alternative, and everyone who wants one can use an 8x8 (on the temp farmland, in the starter zones). Its not ideal, but you always have something.
4. Farming itself is subjective. I know people who only log in to farm, then log off. Yes, its pretty much farmville. But honestly, I like it. If farmville gave me an avatar, in a 3D world, and let me own land and farm it the way I do in ArcheAge, I would happily quit and play just that. Im not saying its a great system, im also not saying its not. Some find it boring and repetitive, some people love it. I know people in EQ2 that only decorate houses. No literally, thats all they do, is decorate player housing. Its not going to be for everyone, but it is good at what it is.
I will agree that the crafting is lackluster. Theres no mini-game to it, there is simply gather the ingredients and hit a button. Vanguard had wonderful crafting, even EQ2 had a unique system. The only good thing about the crafting here is that it is actually meaningful (ie Best in slot).
As to the whole Pay to win in crafting, players are still living in a make-believe world of "what-ifs". Just because you can buy alittle extra labor, doesnt automagically give you a full set of Delphinad gear. There isnt a single person in the game that has Delph, not one piece, let alone a full set. Just because a person "could" spend 15k dollars doesnt mean they have or will. Even if you do, you still only have a chance at getting what you are looking for. It could easily cost you over 25k for a single piece, but noone is ever going to do that.
What is happening, is people are starting to build up some Magnificents. Maybe even an Ephirium or two, nowhere near an entire set of either, and they are lucky if 3 pieces are Celestial or higher. There isnt a single Mythic anything on any server right now. There are server wide messages for anything Celestial or higher.
Personally I have 90k tailoring. I am working on completing my own set of Magnificents. Havent even started Ephirium, let alone Delphinad. So I pretty much have the best on the server right now. I also have a full set of GHA gear, cloth and plate. Which is equal (and in some cases better) than the Mag. pieces I have. And those are dropped in a dungeon, not crafted. Oh and did I mention I havent spent a dime in the game yet?
So while you live in your delusional world where "some random whales are spending tens of thousands of dollars" to get best in slot items and making this game Pay to Win, the rest of us are playing on the Trion servers, where noone has any best in slot anything, PVP is actually fun (not onesided or OP), and some of us havent spent a cent to be competitive. But thats cool, enjoy your make-believe pay to win servers, let me know how that works out for you, ok?
Devious F2P Business Tactic #88: Make the P2W elements not really come into play until later in the game.
Yes, you have a full GHA set and that's the best on the server right now. But then what? The fact that the next tiers up are so ridiculously impossible to get is where the Pay-to-Win (and Devious F2P Business Tactic #whatever) come in.
Make the game easy. Hook them in. Then gradually make things harder and harder and the grind longer and longer until the people feel more and more inclined to spend (and the costs of spending gets higher with each tier). And then make them buy success rate boosters because by the time you actually get to that point, a single failure will set you back half a childhood so people are willing to pay anything for even a slight increase in success rate.
Pretty much a staple tactic of every F2P game out there that's on an energy system and/or has success rate boosters in the cash shop. Hell, I think that one might have been directly stated in R2Game's presentation (at least the enhancement thing and the increasing tier difficulty/cost. I forget. Been a while. Could have sworn it was, though)
Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution.
Say what! Since when did those games become the beacon of PVE storyline and execution. :P
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I like the race car analogy: some people can pay real money and get a faster race car than me. They can lap me, get to the finish line first.
But should I care? My car will still cross the finish line, even if it is later than the faster car.
So what is the definition of "winning"? Crossing the finish line first? If so, then AA and these type of system is definitely pay-to-win. Is the goal of the game just to cross the finish line? Then time doesn't matter, you still "win".
But if you want to be competitive, play a game where you fight over castles or land or something, then the player with the faster car is going to win. They will have better gear, and sooner, than you. They will have land and more of it than you. They will be able to win battles to gain control, more than you.
The problem with this theory is that there is no finish line. Look at DMKano's recent thread on the best geared player in Korea. After 2 years he still hasn't crossed the finish line.
When you look at a game like GW2, the gear power scale is absolute. Within a very reasonable short time, you will be on par with the best of them. It plateaus and is easily attainable.
Not the case in AA. You will never reach the finish line. No one will, ever (They'll move it when someone gets close). Thus, the gear scale is always relative. Someone who has lapped you because they paid real money, will continue to lap you, again and again and again. the gap will only widen and you never converge without your credit card.
I agree with the OP on many of his points. The most poorly implemented feature is land ownership or rather trying to acquire land to own. The system is poorly thought out or rather it seems not much thought was given to it at all. The game allows players to place structures anywhere within the housing zones and as a result a lot of land is wasted. It is like having a parking lot without any lines. As the OP said, there are also land hoarders who have taken every square inch. There were also rumors of hacks that were being used to tell people whenever a building was about to be demolished so they could grab up the land. Its a shame because the game could have been a lot better if a little more thought was put into the details.
Pay to advance is much more accurate. Its no where even near the realm of Pay to Win. Too often of late, gamers come to forums and call anything thats Free to Play "Pay to Win" and have lost sight of what that actually means. Buying labor potions is no more than buying xp potions, neither of which is pay to win anything.
At no time does buying labor potions give you any advantage over another player in terms of player stats. No permanent or temporary bonuses are applied, all you do is reach cap alittle bit faster. But the cap is the same for everyone, whether you play for free, or you spend your entire paycheck, you are still limited the same as everyone else. All you do is get there faster. Im sorry to tell you, but thats not pay to win.
Reaching "endgame" faster only gets you there faster. At no time are you "better" than anyone else, or "stronger", or have any clear advantage at all. Your stats are the same, you have the same skills (and skill points) as everyone else, nothing allows you to "win" in either PVP or PVE any better than someone who doesnt pay money. All it is is a time saver. I just dont understand the mentality these days of MMO players who think the guy who got to 50 in 3 hours is any better off than the guy who takes 3 weeks, when they have exactly the same skills, stats, ect. available to them once they hit 50.
^ True
Also, people forget that the stats gap between really really good gear and decent gear is actually quite marginal. Anything Illustrious or GHA/Hasla level or above are pretty close in stats and not distinguished enough to flat out win you a fight because of it alone.
This is no WoW or SWTOR, where the gear gap between tiers are insane.
[mod edit], this game is awsome, my friend is best pvper without spending any real money in game, same as me and i have like tons of money, pvp is awsome, but seems you dont understand it, there is counter for everything...
Dungeons are not tank and spank like most of wow dungeons, at least when i played it
pvp=> seems you dont know how to arena or never been in naval pvp
land ownership awsome concept and people are selling all the time their places=> for cheap gold=200-500g thats like 2hour of farming money to get land , but guess you are retarded to get money
farming is awsome but what can you know when you judge without having a farm total troll
lp=> 12g you can earn that in 10min just by doing fig run and it doesnt rly buff anything at all. just get faster exp, and gha gear is better then normal crafted gear, yes crafted gear is best, but still you get like 5% more armor and 5% more dps when you get FULL Crafted gear so dont bullshit me, you are just bad at gaming and should stop it. honest opinion.
Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution.
Say what! Since when did those games become the beacon of PVE storyline and execution. :P
Well, he did say "but in comparison". For all we know, maybe he considers ESO, GW2, and TSW to be absolutely horrid in terms of PvE storyline and execution but AA just happens to be even worse.
Wow the amount of hate this game generates is large. The game must be really successful for that
Anyway.. just a reply to the "I can just spend a 1000 bucks and get the best gear in game"..
No you can't. The odds of crafting the best gear is so low that even if you buy a lot of gold you just can't get a hold of the gear. Remember, someone has to make it in the end and most likely that person will not part with it.
Also, what is really the issue. Are people really so afraid that they could in theory meet someone in the game world with better gear?
I remember old games where stuff was really rare and some items might only belong to one or two persons on the server (I'm looking at you nullity sphere in AO).. And we were fine with it.. This person had an advantage because he/she was lucky.
Wow the amount of hate this game generates is large. The game must be really successful for that
Anyway.. just a reply to the "I can just spend a 1000 bucks and get the best gear in game"..
No you can't. The odds of crafting the best gear is so low that even if you buy a lot of gold you just can't get a hold of the gear. Remember, someone has to make it in the end and most likely that person will not part with it.
Also, what is really the issue. Are people really so afraid that they could in theory meet someone in the game world with better gear?
I remember old games where stuff was really rare and some items might only belong to one or two persons on the server (I'm looking at you nullity sphere in AO).. And we were fine with it.. This person had an advantage because he/she was lucky.
It's a RPG, not a FPS ...
Did someone say just a thousand bucks to get the best gear in game? Well, that's wrong. Trion would have to be idiots to make it that easy. There are whales out there that are willing to spend tens of thousands on a game, so why make the best gear available at only $1,000? Hide it behind a random number luck wall so the whales don't know just how expensive it'll truly be and you've got yourself a winning business formula.
As for the issue... well, as I've stated in another thread, some people are fine with "the price" of "open world PvP" (which is the inherent imbalance caused by numbers and gears differences). Archeage is the type of game that will appeal to those people.
Most people, however, are not fine with that. A cash shop that offers advantages only makes it worse. Truthfully, however, even without a cash shop, there would always be those inherent imbalances in an open world PvP game. Just to a lesser extent. Which is why open-world PvP games have always been more niche than those who like that thing would care to admit. That said, open world PvP + pay-to-advance/win/advantage/whatever cash shop just shrinks the niche further, as a good chunk of people who'd otherwise desire an open world PvP even with the inherent balances would refuse to play such a game with that cash shop on principle (same goes for hacks and cheats, of which some people would tolerate but many others would not).
If you're one of those players that don't mind the cash shop giving advantages in a competitive open world PvP game (for whatever reason, say because there are already inherent balances so what's a few more? Or maybe because they "don't make that big a difference" or whatever), that's fine. However, other people do mind, so it's good for them to know that the cash shop can offer those sorts of advantages.
The odds of getting these pieces are so low that I think you would have to spend several hundred thousand dollars to even bump the odds a little.
Even so you will run into labour problems _very_ fast.
In any case you will be standing and crafting for ages before you hit your combo even without the labour issues.
If one or two players actually manage to get an advantage by funding the game with several hundred thousand dollars I'm not that worried. The odds are just so low.
Personally I would never spend any rl cash to get gear as I play casually, but I'm still able to beat a large portion of the other characters 1v1 since I play daggerspell. I'd worry more about class balance.
In a competitive game where no one will ever hit the cap of best-gear (thus, the gear race is never ending) and there are hard-set limits on you if you don't pay (labor points) no matter how skilled you are, how committed to the game you are, and how much you actually play the game, Pay to Advance is Pay to Win.
You can be the smartest most awesome skilled person in the world, but you are still capped by labor points. Paying exceeds this cap.
Pay-to-Advance is generally not (or at least, far less) pay to win in a system where your dedicaiton and gameplay is not capped, and in a system where everyone hits the finish line eventually (best gear). In AA, no one will ever hit the finish line (and by the time anyone comes close, they'll just release a content update that extends that finish line farther by introducing new top gear). Thus, anyone who's paid to advance will have an advantage when it comes to being farther along this never ending race, and thus will have an advantage in all the associated competitive aspects with it (open world PvP, castle sieges of which further victory will also aid them in getting even stronger than others, and arena matches, etc)
Tons of people are tricked into thinking it isn't pay-to-win That's why the business model is so successful and why so many games other than Archeage have "pay to advance" systems in a labor point style game. By having a labor/energy/stamina system to cover up the pay-to-win aspects, companies can encourage whales to pay them to win without anyone else realizing that's the case (and thus still playing, providing fodder for the whales and maybe giving some cash of their own) until they've already become so committed to the game that it's hard to turn back.
Assuming they realize it in the first place. I've played so many games where the cashers were completely owning everyone else and they were never the wiser because paying for more labor/energy/stamina points wasn't "pay-to-win" in their eyes.
Just a question here because as you say, don't the labour points actually serve to put a cap on how much spending money will actually allow you to advance?
There must be a point where you can only use so many LP pots and then you are maxed. Spending more money does not gain you further advances.
So does this not make it pay to advance but not pay to win, because anyone spending the max amount will be no further ahead than the other guy spending that much?
Correct me if I am wrong?
That's actually different argument about the scale of whaling. What you're saying is "All whales are equal because the amount they can spend is capped (the cap's still high enough that I'd call them whales. Buying 2 labor potions a day for all characters on your account becomes silly expensive after 20+ days of doing that)."
The non-whales are still left in the dust
However, you did bring up this nice opportunity for me to mention yet again that companies have learned to not restrict themselves to just one money-scheme when they can have ALL of them. In this case, yes, spending is capped by labor points (yet so high you're still a whale if you hit that cap. Again, this is a devious attempt to make people think the system's fair when it's not), but there are other things you can spend that aren't just labor points.
For example, cash shop lottery boxes that drop items which give an in-game advantage (ah, lotteries. Another, you guessed it, devious way to hide pay-to-win and hell, to hide just HOW expensive on average the items are). And yes, being able to increase your success rate for RNG crafting is a pretty honking huge advantage (....yet ANOTHER devious scheme. Hide your "pay-to-win" under a "It's only increasing your success rate! That's not pay to win!" scheme).
Of course, AA apparently stopped bothering trying to be devious and flat out has the best mounts in the game in those lottery boxes. Given how no one seems to care that you can get the best mounts in the game from a blatant cash grab, I'd say they're rather justified in their "Oh screw it, we can dance around naked in front of them with hats made out of their money and they won't care" attitude. Customers always seem to give money-grubbing cash shops more leeway when it comes to mounts for some reason. Maybe it's that "oooooo, horsey!" effect. I remember one facebook game where they offered a mount if you spent (not recharged. SPENT) $500 worth of cash shop currency and even the whales complained but they brought it anyways. ...twice. Archeage still has some catching up to do, I guess.
TL;DR: Yes, the amount you can spend to replenish your labor is capped. The cap is high enough that all it really does is equalize whale-vs-whale combat. And there's still other things you can spend on anyways if you want to whale things up further.
Wow. I really enjoy reading your posts. You make so much sense. Pure win
Originally posted by TiamatRoar Tons of people are tricked into thinking it isn't pay-to-win That's why the business model is so successful and why so many games other than Archeage have "pay to advance" systems in a labor point style game. By having a labor/energy/stamina system to cover up the pay-to-win aspects, companies can encourage whales to pay them to win without anyone else realizing that's the case (and thus still playing, providing fodder for the whales and maybe giving some cash of their own) until they've already become so committed to the game that it's hard to turn back.
Fantastic post that sums of AA very well.
But what is being "covered up" ? Everyone knows the labor pots are available. And how do we as players, know what the whales are spending? Are all the top players whales? Or did some get there, by working with a guild and other players to accomplish their goals?
How can you make this statement with any accuracy?
Trion has already stated they will eventually sell gear just like in Rift. Look the shit up. If you can't understand how I could spend $1000 on Apex and get the best gear immediately that is your own problem for being dumb. AA is no better then any other Asian game point blank.
Pay no attention to this completely false statement. Trion has NEVER mentioned ANY cash shop changes until they were already released. This also applied to alpha/beta.
Nice try though.....
If AA is so P2W, then why does it take soooo many discussions and explanations as to why? Maybe because it is a stretch to say it's P2W and is purely based on opinion. With all the goals that I have in AA and the time sinks involved, I would gladly throw cash at a way to mitigate some of the sinks and there is little to nothing I can find on the cash shop which will directly do that. Sorry more LP doesn't directly translate to win AT ALL. You still need the profession skill, the materials and more importantly, THE TIME. There is no amount of cash which will help most of those.
I enjoy seeing the logic in how this game is not pay 2 win.
Basically they are saying that money advances you higher faster, but with time and effort..You will reach the same spot.
That is true for every game on this Damn planet. By your standards, even games like perfect world international is not pay2win and that is just so far from the truth.
So in your world, no game can be pay2win. Pay to advance is a hilarious attempt at putting a band aid on it. So is pay4convenience.
Anyways, being on topic, Jack of all trades is better then master of one. Look at wildstar lol
Amazing how every discussion on AA turns into white knights putting hands over ears and screaming "not p2w, not p2w, not p2w!" . It is especially funny in this case, because of everything in the OP the p2w part is the most objective comment, (although I basically agree with the OP on the other points as well).
It is funny that people use the RNG and low chances as a way of negating the P2W problem. But what about then when after months of playing and the F2P players get their 1 chance at something good for The month? i bet it will hurt them even more.. RNG on this scale is so Greedy and screams cash grab why would anyone go for that kind of system i don't know.. Also when you then add the "patron" which is basically a Sub without getting all the stuff a Sub game gives. No they also want your money for their "stamina" system and the gamble boxes,the scrolls, It is one of the better constructed grabs.It is basically all the systems of the facebooks/browser games combined in one. At least in those games you will hit the paywall quite fast and realize it is not worth it to spend the money. But here AA is having an advantage in that they make hitting that point take quite some time so you feel more invested in your account and your lvl 50 char and thus more inclined to spend the extra money for that bigger chance at getting a spin at the RNG, and if you then fail you will buy labor pots to come back to that point faster again and probably also use the scrolls to minimize it. AND all that AFTER you have PAID FOR A SUB!?!?!? it is ridiculous.. STAMINA+SUB+SHOP+CRAZY RNG... in one game! It really is F2 be a sucker and P2Pay2Pay2RNG *SMH*
And i guess some people can have fun playing their MMO's like a single player game just doing their own stuff, power to them.But if you really wanna enjoy the full game you atleast need the sub and even then the people that use the store will end up being miles ahead. And i realize that in the first few months of the game the difference wont be so big but as some have mentioned the people that pay the extra $$ will keep getting further and further away as the RNG and requirements will be larger. And then the F2P will really be left behind
Sorry if i sound really negative, im really not, but the systems in place really all seem to be against the players and their wallets in everyway possible.. Have a nice day
(I hope my English doesn't make it too painfull to read )
No idea why people hate AA and go overboard about with their opinion about AA. Beside the launch issues the company behind has been open about what it is, no one forced anyone to anything etc. and then we have all sort of unfair comments and reviews.
First of all all of you are in MMORPG forum discussing a MMORPG. 2 things should be clear at this point.
a) There will be char progression. In some shape or another there will be some system in place which let you advance your char over time in attributes, abillities etc. It will need playing the game and investing time in the game before you can reach some "mastered" status.
b) There will be differences in gear. There is diufferent types of gear and different grades of gear. You won't be handed your best suit of armor and best choice of weapon for free on first day.
now since Archeage is a open world sandbox MMORPG game more things should be clear at that point :
a) there won't be many situation where you face other people in a perfect 1 vs 1 scenario and also should know about what this means regarding class balance etc.
b) there is freedom in bonding and socializing and crating groups who work together. Your group and contacts may not be the biggest and with most influence on the world.
I don't think many of the critics points stand afetr being clear about these basic things.
Comments
Yea, you are correct actually
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Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Once An Addict Always An Addict .
I will agree that the crafting is lackluster. Theres no mini-game to it, there is simply gather the ingredients and hit a button. Vanguard had wonderful crafting, even EQ2 had a unique system. The only good thing about the crafting here is that it is actually meaningful (ie Best in slot).
As to the whole Pay to win in crafting, players are still living in a make-believe world of "what-ifs". Just because you can buy alittle extra labor, doesnt automagically give you a full set of Delphinad gear. There isnt a single person in the game that has Delph, not one piece, let alone a full set. Just because a person "could" spend 15k dollars doesnt mean they have or will. Even if you do, you still only have a chance at getting what you are looking for. It could easily cost you over 25k for a single piece, but noone is ever going to do that.
What is happening, is people are starting to build up some Magnificents. Maybe even an Ephirium or two, nowhere near an entire set of either, and they are lucky if 3 pieces are Celestial or higher. There isnt a single Mythic anything on any server right now. There are server wide messages for anything Celestial or higher.
Personally I have 90k tailoring. I am working on completing my own set of Magnificents. Havent even started Ephirium, let alone Delphinad. So I pretty much have the best on the server right now. I also have a full set of GHA gear, cloth and plate. Which is equal (and in some cases better) than the Mag. pieces I have. And those are dropped in a dungeon, not crafted. Oh and did I mention I havent spent a dime in the game yet?
So while you live in your delusional world where "some random whales are spending tens of thousands of dollars" to get best in slot items and making this game Pay to Win, the rest of us are playing on the Trion servers, where noone has any best in slot anything, PVP is actually fun (not onesided or OP), and some of us havent spent a cent to be competitive. But thats cool, enjoy your make-believe pay to win servers, let me know how that works out for you, ok?
I doubt that.
Lies, All Lies !!!
Cheers
Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Once An Addict Always An Addict .
Everything here is pretty spot on.
1. PVE - The PVE is definately lacking something. It is a huge throwback to "old school" MMOs. Back when buttonmashing and hotbar spam was "cool". You wont see any new fancy "action combat" here, or even simply dodging or rolling, which newer MMOs have switched to. The dungeons are well done, but very short and lack challenge. I believe this to be deliberate, since the games main focus is PVP. PVE was just a way to easily get "starter" gear and keep everyone on a somewhat level playing field, until some of the higher crafted tiers can be made.
2. PVP falls to many of the same pitfalls. Instead of the newer systems of "limited skill sets", in which you have to pick and choose your build carefully, this is more old school again, in that you can load up multiple hotbars with alittle of everything. You have room for AOE, single target nukes, CC, heals, whatever you got, you can put it on your bar. It definitely takes something away when everyone can do everything, and becomes more of a "CC then nuke", and not reaction to the situation. I know theres alot of hate out there for new MMOs have only give you 4-6 skills, but this is why. It does add strategy and options to builds, not take them away. I know thats confusing to some, but in this case, less is more.
3. Land can be a huge issue. In the first few days of the server, everyone was scrambling to get as much as they could. Problem was that the server had so many issues, some could get way more than others, and in many cases, more than they needed. I personally know people in my guild with 14+ properties ( i think one guy has 20). This is disgusting, and there needed to be an account max. Sure a person could just make more accounts, but they would be paying out the ass to keep them all Patron. I got the land I wanted, but many were no so lucky. And now that the initial rush is over, its plagued with bots and hacks getting all the expiring land. If it werent for that, this would actually be a fun system, and land would have been more evenly distributed. Luckily, there is always an alternative, and everyone who wants one can use an 8x8 (on the temp farmland, in the starter zones). Its not ideal, but you always have something.
4. Farming itself is subjective. I know people who only log in to farm, then log off. Yes, its pretty much farmville. But honestly, I like it. If farmville gave me an avatar, in a 3D world, and let me own land and farm it the way I do in ArcheAge, I would happily quit and play just that. Im not saying its a great system, im also not saying its not. Some find it boring and repetitive, some people love it. I know people in EQ2 that only decorate houses. No literally, thats all they do, is decorate player housing. Its not going to be for everyone, but it is good at what it is.
Devious F2P Business Tactic #88: Make the P2W elements not really come into play until later in the game.
Yes, you have a full GHA set and that's the best on the server right now. But then what? The fact that the next tiers up are so ridiculously impossible to get is where the Pay-to-Win (and Devious F2P Business Tactic #whatever) come in.
Make the game easy. Hook them in. Then gradually make things harder and harder and the grind longer and longer until the people feel more and more inclined to spend (and the costs of spending gets higher with each tier). And then make them buy success rate boosters because by the time you actually get to that point, a single failure will set you back half a childhood so people are willing to pay anything for even a slight increase in success rate.
Pretty much a staple tactic of every F2P game out there that's on an energy system and/or has success rate boosters in the cash shop. Hell, I think that one might have been directly stated in R2Game's presentation (at least the enhancement thing and the increasing tier difficulty/cost. I forget. Been a while. Could have sworn it was, though)
*checks*
...yep.
Quote from OP:
Sure AA has it, you can quest to max level but in comparison to games like ESO, GW2, TSW this game just falls horribly short both in storyline and execution.
Say what! Since when did those games become the beacon of PVE storyline and execution. :P
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
The problem with this theory is that there is no finish line. Look at DMKano's recent thread on the best geared player in Korea. After 2 years he still hasn't crossed the finish line.
When you look at a game like GW2, the gear power scale is absolute. Within a very reasonable short time, you will be on par with the best of them. It plateaus and is easily attainable.
Not the case in AA. You will never reach the finish line. No one will, ever (They'll move it when someone gets close). Thus, the gear scale is always relative. Someone who has lapped you because they paid real money, will continue to lap you, again and again and again. the gap will only widen and you never converge without your credit card.
^ True
Also, people forget that the stats gap between really really good gear and decent gear is actually quite marginal. Anything Illustrious or GHA/Hasla level or above are pretty close in stats and not distinguished enough to flat out win you a fight because of it alone.
This is no WoW or SWTOR, where the gear gap between tiers are insane.
[mod edit], this game is awsome, my friend is best pvper without spending any real money in game, same as me and i have like tons of money, pvp is awsome, but seems you dont understand it, there is counter for everything...
Dungeons are not tank and spank like most of wow dungeons, at least when i played it
pvp=> seems you dont know how to arena or never been in naval pvp
land ownership awsome concept and people are selling all the time their places=> for cheap gold=200-500g thats like 2hour of farming money to get land , but guess you are retarded to get money
farming is awsome but what can you know when you judge without having a farm
total troll
lp=> 12g you can earn that in 10min just by doing fig run and it doesnt rly buff anything at all. just get faster exp, and gha gear is better then normal crafted gear, yes crafted gear is best, but still you get like 5% more armor and 5% more dps when you get FULL Crafted gear so dont bullshit me, you are just bad at gaming and should stop it. honest opinion.
Well, he did say "but in comparison". For all we know, maybe he considers ESO, GW2, and TSW to be absolutely horrid in terms of PvE storyline and execution but AA just happens to be even worse.
That's what all the Wildstar white knights told everyone when everyone else complained about its hardcore mentality. Look where it got that game.
(heck, possibly look where it got Archeage if you look at how well AA is doing in other regions...)
Wow the amount of hate this game generates is large. The game must be really successful for that
Anyway.. just a reply to the "I can just spend a 1000 bucks and get the best gear in game"..
No you can't. The odds of crafting the best gear is so low that even if you buy a lot of gold you just can't get a hold of the gear. Remember, someone has to make it in the end and most likely that person will not part with it.
Also, what is really the issue. Are people really so afraid that they could in theory meet someone in the game world with better gear?
I remember old games where stuff was really rare and some items might only belong to one or two persons on the server (I'm looking at you nullity sphere in AO).. And we were fine with it.. This person had an advantage because he/she was lucky.
It's a RPG, not a FPS ...
Did someone say just a thousand bucks to get the best gear in game? Well, that's wrong. Trion would have to be idiots to make it that easy. There are whales out there that are willing to spend tens of thousands on a game, so why make the best gear available at only $1,000? Hide it behind a random number luck wall so the whales don't know just how expensive it'll truly be and you've got yourself a winning business formula.
As for the issue... well, as I've stated in another thread, some people are fine with "the price" of "open world PvP" (which is the inherent imbalance caused by numbers and gears differences). Archeage is the type of game that will appeal to those people.
Most people, however, are not fine with that. A cash shop that offers advantages only makes it worse. Truthfully, however, even without a cash shop, there would always be those inherent imbalances in an open world PvP game. Just to a lesser extent. Which is why open-world PvP games have always been more niche than those who like that thing would care to admit. That said, open world PvP + pay-to-advance/win/advantage/whatever cash shop just shrinks the niche further, as a good chunk of people who'd otherwise desire an open world PvP even with the inherent balances would refuse to play such a game with that cash shop on principle (same goes for hacks and cheats, of which some people would tolerate but many others would not).
If you're one of those players that don't mind the cash shop giving advantages in a competitive open world PvP game (for whatever reason, say because there are already inherent balances so what's a few more? Or maybe because they "don't make that big a difference" or whatever), that's fine. However, other people do mind, so it's good for them to know that the cash shop can offer those sorts of advantages.
The odds of getting these pieces are so low that I think you would have to spend several hundred thousand dollars to even bump the odds a little.
Even so you will run into labour problems _very_ fast.
In any case you will be standing and crafting for ages before you hit your combo even without the labour issues.
If one or two players actually manage to get an advantage by funding the game with several hundred thousand dollars I'm not that worried. The odds are just so low.
Personally I would never spend any rl cash to get gear as I play casually, but I'm still able to beat a large portion of the other characters 1v1 since I play daggerspell. I'd worry more about class balance.
Wow. I really enjoy reading your posts. You make so much sense. Pure win
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
This is such a great analogy.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
Basically they are saying that money advances you higher faster, but with time and effort..You will reach the same spot.
That is true for every game on this Damn planet. By your standards, even games like perfect world international is not pay2win and that is just so far from the truth.
So in your world, no game can be pay2win. Pay to advance is a hilarious attempt at putting a band aid on it. So is pay4convenience.
Anyways, being on topic, Jack of all trades is better then master of one. Look at wildstar lol
How?
Amazing how every discussion on AA turns into white knights putting hands over ears and screaming "not p2w, not p2w, not p2w!" . It is especially funny in this case, because of everything in the OP the p2w part is the most objective comment, (although I basically agree with the OP on the other points as well).
It is funny that people use the RNG and low chances as a way of negating the P2W problem. But what about then when after months of playing and the F2P players get their 1 chance at something good for The month? i bet it will hurt them even more.. RNG on this scale is so Greedy and screams cash grab why would anyone go for that kind of system i don't know.. Also when you then add the "patron" which is basically a Sub without getting all the stuff a Sub game gives. No they also want your money for their "stamina" system and the gamble boxes,the scrolls, It is one of the better constructed grabs.It is basically all the systems of the facebooks/browser games combined in one. At least in those games you will hit the paywall quite fast and realize it is not worth it to spend the money. But here AA is having an advantage in that they make hitting that point take quite some time so you feel more invested in your account and your lvl 50 char and thus more inclined to spend the extra money for that bigger chance at getting a spin at the RNG, and if you then fail you will buy labor pots to come back to that point faster again and probably also use the scrolls to minimize it. AND all that AFTER you have PAID FOR A SUB!?!?!? it is ridiculous.. STAMINA+SUB+SHOP+CRAZY RNG... in one game! It really is F2 be a sucker and P2Pay2Pay2RNG *SMH*
And i guess some people can have fun playing their MMO's like a single player game just doing their own stuff, power to them.But if you really wanna enjoy the full game you atleast need the sub and even then the people that use the store will end up being miles ahead. And i realize that in the first few months of the game the difference wont be so big but as some have mentioned the people that pay the extra $$ will keep getting further and further away as the RNG and requirements will be larger. And then the F2P will really be left behind
Sorry if i sound really negative, im really not, but the systems in place really all seem to be against the players and their wallets in everyway possible.. Have a nice day
(I hope my English doesn't make it too painfull to read
)
Its boaringly slow stand still fighting unless you a few select builds.
No idea why people hate AA and go overboard about with their opinion about AA. Beside the launch issues the company behind has been open about what it is, no one forced anyone to anything etc. and then we have all sort of unfair comments and reviews.
First of all all of you are in MMORPG forum discussing a MMORPG. 2 things should be clear at this point.
a) There will be char progression. In some shape or another there will be some system in place which let you advance your char over time in attributes, abillities etc. It will need playing the game and investing time in the game before you can reach some "mastered" status.
b) There will be differences in gear. There is diufferent types of gear and different grades of gear. You won't be handed your best suit of armor and best choice of weapon for free on first day.
now since Archeage is a open world sandbox MMORPG game more things should be clear at that point :
a) there won't be many situation where you face other people in a perfect 1 vs 1 scenario and also should know about what this means regarding class balance etc.
b) there is freedom in bonding and socializing and crating groups who work together. Your group and contacts may not be the biggest and with most influence on the world.
I don't think many of the critics points stand afetr being clear about these basic things.