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EQN's primary focus is the PS4?

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  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Member UncommonPosts: 2,225
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A Million slots would be bad. 8 slots are bad too.

    You want to have one eye, or three? No, two eyes is fine. 16-24 buttons is ideal.

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    You could make it with 12 slots as long as they are very different and timing really matters, particularly if you use chain skills.

    But yes 4-8 ain't enough (and that is from someone who played GW for 5 years, the 8 slots was really my biggest turnoff there).

    What truly matters however is how fun the combat is, and focusing on timing and positioning lets you use less skills then a game where you more or less hit the same spot the entire combat.

    24 buttons work really well for spellcasters but is frankly a bit much for a melee fighting warrior, that tends to mean that many attacks becomes rather similar to eachothers and having 5 very similar attacks are exactly as fun as a single one.

    8 slots is great, and no more than 12 it tolerable I'd think.  The problem with having 20 slots is you end up either having to use keyboard AND mouse to dance all over the screen, or you end up building macro's (which gets it down to less than 8, anyway). 

    A problem with many MMO's is there are so many redundant abilities (Whirl AND Cleave?) that the screen ends up looking like a HUD (Head's Up Display) of a military fighter get.  And folks end up spending time focusing on the buttons while their eyes are kind of off the scenery before them.

    Less buttons and ... more strategy maybe is the key, but I never want to see 20 or more abilities scattered across multiple action bars ever again.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A Million slots would be bad. 8 slots are bad too.

    You want to have one eye, or three? No, two eyes is fine. 16-24 buttons is ideal.

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    You could make it with 12 slots as long as they are very different and timing really matters, particularly if you use chain skills.

    But yes 4-8 ain't enough (and that is from someone who played GW for 5 years, the 8 slots was really my biggest turnoff there).

    What truly matters however is how fun the combat is, and focusing on timing and positioning lets you use less skills then a game where you more or less hit the same spot the entire combat.

    24 buttons work really well for spellcasters but is frankly a bit much for a melee fighting warrior, that tends to mean that many attacks becomes rather similar to eachothers and having 5 very similar attacks are exactly as fun as a single one.

    8 slots is great, and no more than 12 it tolerable I'd think.  The problem with having 20 slots is you end up either having to use keyboard AND mouse to dance all over the screen, or you end up building macro's (which gets it down to less than 8, anyway). 

    A problem with many MMO's is there are so many redundant abilities (Whirl AND Cleave?) that the screen ends up looking like a HUD (Head's Up Display) of a military fighter get.  And folks end up spending time focusing on the buttons while their eyes are kind of off the scenery before them.

    Less buttons and ... more strategy maybe is the key, but I never want to see 20 or more abilities scattered across multiple action bars ever again.

    What are you looking at besides the buttons? You think those animations are going to be so necessary to watch over and over again? The combat they have shown is FPS-ish in it's mouselook hyper movement nature, so the only reasons for restricting the buttons are the shooter style hopping and bouncing along with making the button scheme friendly for consoles.

    Strategy is strategy, you can have that with or without a lot of buttons, so that excuse is a wash.

    Exact repeats of abilities are a stupid example, and yet I bet you will see that in the tier advancement. As cleave becomes whirlwind at Tier 2. So you will have the same sort of thing but in a sidegrade button at the next tier, all with less choices.

    Restrictionist, Shooter combat is a dumb thing to put in a game like this.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Member UncommonPosts: 2,225
    Originally posted by Archlyte
     

    What are you looking at besides the buttons? You think those animations are going to be so necessary to watch over and over again?

    I think watching the "animations" and what's going on before you during a fight is very important. 

    The combat they have shown is FPS-ish in it's mouselook hyper movement nature, so the only reasons for restricting the buttons are the shooter style hopping and bouncing along with making the button scheme friendly for consoles.  Then they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason, which works for me.

     

    Strategy is strategy, you can have that with or without a lot of buttons, so that excuse is a wash.

    No, too many buttons and after awhile, you spend your focus more on the display than on the world.

    Exact repeats of abilities are a stupid example, and yet I bet you will see that in the tier advancement. As cleave becomes whirlwind at Tier 2. So you will have the same sort of thing but in a sidegrade button at the next tier, all with less choices.

    Restrictionist, Shooter combat is a dumb thing to put in a game like this.  Agreed here, shooter combat is dumb.  But I am firm on believing combat abilities ought to be a subset of a single action bar and not having two, three or four bars of abilities.

     

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Archlyte
     

    What are you looking at besides the buttons? You think those animations are going to be so necessary to watch over and over again?

    I think watching the "animations" and what's going on before you during a fight is very important. 

    The combat they have shown is FPS-ish in it's mouselook hyper movement nature, so the only reasons for restricting the buttons are the shooter style hopping and bouncing along with making the button scheme friendly for consoles.  Then they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason, which works for me.

     

    Strategy is strategy, you can have that with or without a lot of buttons, so that excuse is a wash.

    No, too many buttons and after awhile, you spend your focus more on the display than on the world.

    Exact repeats of abilities are a stupid example, and yet I bet you will see that in the tier advancement. As cleave becomes whirlwind at Tier 2. So you will have the same sort of thing but in a sidegrade button at the next tier, all with less choices.

    Restrictionist, Shooter combat is a dumb thing to put in a game like this.  Agreed here, shooter combat is dumb.  But I am firm on believing combat abilities ought to be a subset of a single action bar and not having two, three or four bars of abilities.

     

    Yeah you say that until you realize there really wasn't that much to watch.

     

    I love these arguments where you guys try to make a tiny selection of abilities sound like the world.

    Controller Button 1: Swordmaster Yen teaches me to Fight - I woke up that chilly morning and prepared myself for the fight of my life. It wasn't a real fight of course, but the fate of my sister Ladal and my dear Aunt Porfie lay in the balance. Master Yen approached my voxel hovel and appraised me with his steely eyes .....

    Controller Button 2: In Which I bust a sick ass Whirlwind like a Lion King- .....

     

    It's not going to work. You are not going to convince me that by taking shit away from me my life became better

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    I like to look at it, like golf..

         In golf you are only allowed 14 clubs in the bag.. Now granted on any given day on any given course most of your club count will never change.. Just like my Druid character in EQ1.. But there is always need to customize some of your slots for a specific purpose and reason..  I support "ONLY" allowing a 10 key hotbar, and forcing players to make choices what their line-up will be.. Agreed shooter combat is the poorest idea for a MMORPG type of game where ROLES should be the main focus..  How do I rez a fallen buddy if I can NOT target him?  How do I give a selected player (tank) damage shield so it makes his job at tanking easier if I can not target him?  And how do I give him the needed heals if I can not target him?  Billy Bob is KOS to dark elves and needs me to "invis" him so he can sneak past.. How do I invis him if I can NOT target him..

         I hope people will soon realize that the LOSS of targeting players and mobs actually reduces are abilities and role playing.. We LOSE much much more then any shooter combat bs..  Shooter combat only appeals to the esport mentality, and that will only offend others into quitting.. IMO..

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    TERA uses targeted heals and it works great. There is also the option to have abilities that are self/group targeted. There is no delineation between role playing and aimed targeting. Would the player have to be more aware of their positioning and line of sight? Yes and that's a good thing right? I thought we wanted challenge. It will of course change group/raid sizes as to not make spell casting on friendlies impossible but hey... maybe that would be a "zerg" approach less desirable (one of the GW2 complaints applied to EQN).

    Aimed combat comes with a lot of advantages.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    *make a "zerg" approach...
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I hope people will soon realize that the LOSS of targeting players and mobs actually reduces are abilities and role playing.. We LOSE much much more then any shooter combat bs..  Shooter combat only appeals to the esport mentality, and that will only offend others into quitting.. IMO..

    What's the difference between aiming at a friendly/enemy and hitting skill 1 and tab cycling or clicking on them and then hitting skill 1?

    Maybe I've played more types of games or something, but beyond lacking coordination or wanting a more casual/slow experience, both systems work pretty much the same.

    Single target and AOE work perfectly fine in both types of systems.

    Guess one of the bid differences is that when you have to aim, you have to actually be active and stay with the target. Can't just select Tank, then hit Heal over and over while eating a sandwich and the Tank is moving all over the map. You have to actually stay with them and participate. Much like a Medic in TF2. As well as having to think a head and use terrain/movement in game play, not just stay relatively static going down the row of skills. Aiming does require more effort, but I guess everyone doesn't enjoy the extra challenge.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    It's not going to work. You are not going to convince me that by taking shit away from me my life became better

    Honestly, it sounds like you simply like a very specific type of game play which EQN will not have. Not a matter of it being good/bad, you just like what you like and you're right, no one is going to magically change your mind.

    What they have shown works in some form in various games without issue. If you started gaming after WoW or simply have focused on games with a ton of skills/UI, it makes sense. But there are other ways to do it. They could of went the 50 skills per class design and still been console friendly, they decided to go with more class quantity and less skills per each instead.

    If it had never been done before or been a total failure in previous tries, I could see where it could be a bad idea, but that simply isn't the case. Beyond personal preference, what they are doing doesn't have anything wrong with it from a form/function stand point.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I hope people will soon realize that the LOSS of targeting players and mobs actually reduces are abilities and role playing.. We LOSE much much more then any shooter combat bs..  Shooter combat only appeals to the esport mentality, and that will only offend others into quitting.. IMO..

    What's the difference between aiming at a friendly/enemy and hitting skill 1 and tab cycling or clicking on them and then hitting skill 1?

    Maybe I've played more types of games or something, but beyond lacking coordination or wanting a more casual/slow experience, both systems work pretty much the same. ( sorry I totally disagree here.. playing call of duty "shooter combat" doesn't remotely play like tab targeting games such as EQ1 and WoW )

    Single target and AOE work perfectly fine in both types of systems.  ( again, not in the slightest.. One of the beauties that I loved playing a healer in WoW or EQ1 is mana management, and placing a priority on who gets heals and when..  In EQ I played both Druid and Cleric, and prefered Druid more.. In WoW, my two favs were playing my holy Pally, and holy Priest.. Both healers played completely different then each other and BOTH could never survive played in a "shooter combat" type of system..  )

    Guess one of the bid differences is that when you have to aim, you have to actually be active and stay with the target. Can't just select Tank, then hit Heal over and over while eating a sandwich and the Tank is moving all over the map. You have to actually stay with them and participate. Much like a Medic in TF2. As well as having to think a head and use terrain/movement in game play, not just stay relatively static going down the row of skills. Aiming does require more effort, but I guess everyone doesn't enjoy the extra challenge.  Tank is active as you admit and therefore makes it impossible to "cast" spells on a moving target unless you use insta-cast.. Is that EQN?  Everything being insta-cast on the move with cooldowns?  If I can NOT auto target my group member, how do you cast a 2 second  AOE to a target that is moving in / out of my that AOE?  Catching on yet?  As for eating a sandwich comment.. I could NEVER eat a sammie doing group/raid content.. You either have never played a healer in WoW, or just making something up to justify your position to endorse shooter combat.. You appear to focus on DPS twitch combat, which is tunnel focused and ignores much of everything else.. AIMING requires NO LAG whatsoever, and is very unforgiving to any ISP or computer that is substandard.. That is another con against shooter combat.. BIG TURN OFF and game breaker..  

    As I have said before.. I can generate MORE cons against shooter combat then anyone could ever give pros for it..  Shooter combat is very restrictive..

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Targeting something and having any ability cast just on them is easy. Taking encounter mechanics out tab targeting is very basic and takes little effort other than selecting a UI nameplate in some cases.

    In other cases where there is a click to select... You're doing essentially the same except click/typing twice instead of once. So not only is tab targeting an easier method but also redundant.

    The likeness to an FPS will depend a lot on how the skills are set up and what the pace of combat is like. Since EQN will work with resource pools on top of cooldowns there may not be the spamming of buttons frequently seen in FPS games. There are MMO titles already out there that prove this.

    I for one would love an active tank that kept mobs off of my group mates rather than rely on RNG taunt/DPS mechanics. Those who tank generally like to control the field. You'd have that more with an aimed system with CC/push-backs.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I hope people will soon realize that the LOSS of targeting players and mobs actually reduces are abilities and role playing.. We LOSE much much more then any shooter combat bs..  Shooter combat only appeals to the esport mentality, and that will only offend others into quitting.. IMO..

    What's the difference between aiming at a friendly/enemy and hitting skill 1 and tab cycling or clicking on them and then hitting skill 1?

    Maybe I've played more types of games or something, but beyond lacking coordination or wanting a more casual/slow experience, both systems work pretty much the same. ( sorry I totally disagree here.. playing call of duty "shooter combat" doesn't remotely play like tab targeting games such as EQ1 and WoW )

    How is EQN's system anything like COD's? You are correct, but very apples to oranges comparison. Take a look at SMITE, TERA or more fantasy aka not realistic/gun dominated games. While you gave a different system as an example, you didn't answer my first question.

    I sure as heck hope you can't hold down Skill 1 and just shoot off fireballs like a madman and then pick up fire to reload your staff...to think EQN won't have resource management or any sort of cooldown is a big leap.

    Single target and AOE work perfectly fine in both types of systems.  ( again, not in the slightest.. One of the beauties that I loved playing a healer in WoW or EQ1 is mana management, and placing a priority on who gets heals and when..  In EQ I played both Druid and Cleric, and prefered Druid more.. In WoW, my two favs were playing my holy Pally, and holy Priest.. Both healers played completely different then each other and BOTH could never survive played in a "shooter combat" type of system..  )

    Why not? You jump straight to "it isn't possible" but I'm missing any reasoning or facts.

    I'm assuming friendly/enemies will still have HP bars or clear status indicators. If I see Billy the Warrior at low health or better yet, if I'm paying attention and see him smacked in the face by a Giant's club, I'll aim at him, hit Heal 1 and tada, he's healed. Does it take more active playing? Yes, but it doesn't take a lot more "skill" or effort. As they've said, they want players watching/in the action, not staring at the UI. If you weren't able to only watch the UI in a decent chunk of WoW's content as a healer, we must of had totally different experiences.

    While I assume we'll still see plenty of single target skills, AOE/Group skills are also probably going to be very effective. As shown with the Cleric's AOE bubble that did double duty for allies and enemies. It does change team/strat dynamics where you can't just go down the row hitting heal heal heal, but have to use team work and placement so when you drop the heal bubble, people know to gravitate towards you.

    "Oh crap I'm dying, sweet there is a heal bubble/patch of ground, I'll go stand near it for few sec and regain my health, maybe I should check to see if the healer is okay while I'm at it."

    For me, action combat encourages team work quite a lot as you can't stand back 100 yards spamming heals/cc while the dps folks are up in the mix.

    The "Tank" would be near the healers/casters and be using shields to physically block (Bulwark) for example. Not spamming taunt in a corner so the mob lets everyone stab it in the back.

    Guess one of the bid differences is that when you have to aim, you have to actually be active and stay with the target. Can't just select Tank, then hit Heal over and over while eating a sandwich and the Tank is moving all over the map. You have to actually stay with them and participate. Much like a Medic in TF2. As well as having to think a head and use terrain/movement in game play, not just stay relatively static going down the row of skills. Aiming does require more effort, but I guess everyone doesn't enjoy the extra challenge. 

    Tank is active as you admit and therefore makes it impossible to "cast" spells on a moving target unless you use insta-cast.. Is that EQN?  Everything being insta-cast on the move with cooldowns?  If I can NOT auto target my group member, how do you cast a 2 second  AOE to a target that is moving in / out of my that AOE? 

    As I mentioned above, either the team works together and learned to be at the right place at the right time and not over extend or much easier, you simply aim at them for 2 seconds.

    Ex: Aim at Tank, Tank moves around, keep aiming at tank (crazy I know), cast 1, 2, 10 second heal while continuing to aim. You can do this while standing still or moving around.

    Saying it is impossible is like saying it is impossible to shoot someone in a FPS. You can't just follow them with your crosshairs while continuing to spray away? Same concept, be it a different system. In a mmorpg you still have to account for cooldowns, resource management, and other things that slow down combat.

    Catching on yet?  Not really beyond I get you only like what you like.

    As for eating a sandwich comment.. I could NEVER eat a sammie doing group/raid content.. You either have never played a healer in WoW, or just making something up to justify your position to endorse shooter combat.. 

    I played a Mage in WoW, but my roommate played a Priest and he never seemed to be sweating bullets because of the stress. Especially in 40 man raids. Usually only had to heal 1-2 main tanks, while druid/shaman/extra priests handled everyone else. Not saying WoW/EQ were cake walks, far from it, one missed cast or error could wipe everyone. But WoW's design is not EQN's. Different systems in place that require different approaches. Sandwich was just being a smart ass, but there were plenty of times where I could multi task while playing EQ/WoW. 

    You appear to focus on DPS twitch combat, which is tunnel focused and ignores much of everything else.. AIMING requires NO LAG whatsoever, and is very unforgiving to any ISP or computer that is substandard.. That is another con against shooter combat.. BIG TURN OFF and game breaker..  

    Again, do you have any evidence of this? I've played countless hours of FPS/Action games and not suffered greatly from lag. Once again, Medic in TF2. While a simple example as there are very few skills, the system is designed around movement and faster paced combat. I've seen 1 good medic keep a team of 15 others up and winning against a team with several medics that suck. While I'm sure if the medic had lagged out, we would of been screwed, but lag is the enemy of any gamer/game beyond turn based maybe...

    You seem to focus on skills working like bullets? No reason a "heal" can't be cast at a moving target and soft lock on them or at least heal them if in a general area. Such as cone skills. Heal everyone in 180 degree area, 20 ft away. Sort of like Wildstar. It doesn't have to be extreme with a heal having to instant head shot someone. Friendly/enemy skills and function differently within the same system as well. Friendly being more forgiving...

    Tank hits Bulwark, going to assume friendlies don't have to literally be right behind them, hugging their back, to receive the benefit, these are fantasy games, again not COD "realistic" shooters.

    As I have said before.. I can generate MORE cons against shooter combat then anyone could ever give pros for it..  Shooter combat is very restrictive..

    EQN isn't "shooter" combat if that term means COD style. You can give all the cons you like, but they are personal cons. Multiple games show that it works and differs for different types of game play. I could generate pros, but it is more of personal tastes.

    Both systems (along with others), work perfectly fine when game play is designed around them.

    No EQN's system wouldn't work in WoW/EQ, nor would it work in COD. Why? Different games. I've said it before, but you can't try to shoehorn in something that wasn't designed with the system in mind to prove it works or not. Games are sum of the parts, action/aim combat is part of the total package, you can't just replace it with tab targeting without any issue.

    If you could explain how Tera, Smite, Skyrim, TESO and Wildstar (in some ways), TF2, and even newly announced Overwatch fail to allow for Single-AOE-Cone-GTAOE etc style skills, please do. PS2, a full on SOE made bullet spraying twitch FPS has healers... I get you don't like it, but it already works in multiple games in different ways. EQN's system isn't new or untested.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I hope people will soon realize that the LOSS of targeting players and mobs actually reduces are abilities and role playing.. We LOSE much much more then any shooter combat bs..  Shooter combat only appeals to the esport mentality, and that will only offend others into quitting.. IMO..

    Why not? You jump straight to "it isn't possible" but I'm missing any reasoning or facts.

    I'm assuming   Lets stay with what is IN THE GAME, not your assumptions what it "could" be.. From what I"m seeing and hearing the ONLY heals will be self imposed like GW2, and AE heals.. There will be NO SINGLE TARGET heals like you assume will be in the example below.. lol 

    Ex: Aim at Tank, Tank moves around, keep aiming at tank (crazy I know), cast 1, 2, 10 second heal while continuing to aim. You can do this while standing still or moving around.

    As for eating a sandwich comment.. I could NEVER eat a sammie doing group/raid content.. You either have never played a healer in WoW, or just making something up to justify your position to endorse shooter combat.. 

    I played a Mage in WoW, but my roommate played a Priest and he never seemed to be sweating bullets because of the stress. Especially in 40 man raids. Usually only had to heal 1-2 main tanks, while druid/shaman/extra priests handled everyone else..Seriously dude.. Your roommate priest was main tank healer? and you had shaman's healing too in WoW raids?  I sure would love to know which era this was.. When I left the game in WoTLK era, holy pally's were the ideal main tank healer, druids were great at regens and combat rez, and my priest was good at raid party other then tanks.. As for shaman's?  ummmmm NEVER had them in our raids as healers..

    EQN isn't "shooter" combat if that term means COD style. EQN is exactly bouncing bunny shooter combat..

     

         I don't think you will ever get it, or understand what the loss of auto targeting does to your options..  Since you claim to have played WoW regularly, Imagine doing the Moroes raid boss fight without auto targeting.. That would be insanely hard if not impossible unless you dummy down the mobs to account for countless MISSES and MISTAKES in targeting..  And YES, that is exactly what you get..   NO denying that.. FACT

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Why not? You jump straight to "it isn't possible" but I'm missing any reasoning or facts.

    I'm assuming   Lets stay with what is IN THE GAME, not your assumptions what it "could" be.. From what I"m seeing and hearing the ONLY heals will be self imposed like GW2, and AE heals.. There will be NO SINGLE TARGET heals like you assume will be in the example below.. lol 

    Where are you getting this information? Please point out where they said GW2/AE style is it. They've said that there will still be "healers", simply not dedicated one dimensional heal bots that are required for all content. 40+ classes and you think not 1 will have 1 single target heal? You could be right, but I have no reason to believe that.

    Ex: Aim at Tank, Tank moves around, keep aiming at tank (crazy I know), cast 1, 2, 10 second heal while continuing to aim. You can do this while standing still or moving around.

    The above example is entirely possible. Simply pointing out your impossible view as being incorrect.

    I played a Mage in WoW, but my roommate played a Priest and he never seemed to be sweating bullets because of the stress. Especially in 40 man raids. Usually only had to heal 1-2 main tanks, while druid/shaman/extra priests handled everyone else..Seriously dude.. Your roommate priest was main tank healer? and you had shaman's healing too in WoW raids?  I sure would love to know which era this was.. When I left the game in WoTLK era, holy pally's were the ideal main tank healer, druids were great at regens and combat rez, and my priest was good at raid party other then tanks.. As for shaman's?  ummmmm NEVER had them in our raids as healers..

    I left early on in TBC and played Horde, so no Pally in our vanilla raids. We tried lots of things and while Shaman weren't main tanking it, we did have some that would heal once in a while. They did have 50 skills plastered all over the screen, I'm sure they would use everyone every fight right? No way they only used a handful because that would go against the anti-small skillset crowds argument =)

    EQN isn't "shooter" combat if that term means COD style. EQN is exactly bouncing bunny shooter combat..

    Are you talking Landmark or EQN? While Landmark's combat has been toned down already, it is still bouncy and very over the top. As it should be. It isn't a fantasy game and is a game on its own.

    The little shown of EQN, mostly pre-recorded, but some live, seems typical pace of an action mmo. Would be nice to see a realistic demo and not 1 shotting dummy mobs and focusing on showing off individual skills though.

    Go way back to the reveal, you're telling me the Warrior shield bashing the Kobolds is shooter combat? While this SOE Live's demo was much faster paced, it still was in the realm of the typical fantasy combat we've seen for years. Melee swing normal speed, range still shoot/cast at a reasonable pace. This again is without knowing the mechanics that will be in place like resource management and cooldowns.

    If you think that is anything like COD or a FPS style of hold down trigger and run around combat, guess we live in different gamer worlds.

         I don't think you will ever get it, or understand what the loss of auto targeting does to your options.. 

    I won't because you haven't pointed them out really and I've played games with a similar system and enjoyed it. Off chance is might remove options that are available in a tab system, new options are added to make up for it.

    Since you claim to have played WoW regularly, Imagine doing the Moroes raid boss fight without auto targeting.. That would be insanely hard if not impossible unless you dummy down the mobs to account for countless MISSES and MISTAKES in targeting..  And YES, that is exactly what you get..   NO denying that.. FACT

    Honestly can't remember if I ever fought him as I left pretty early on in TBC. The grind was just too much. Fight looks to take 5 min or so at 70 and looked like the typical WoW boss.

    Could you point out which class/role/skill would be extremely hard without auto target on that fight?

    You are correct aiming could be harder and require more active playing, and yes it would need to be designed with misses/mistakes in mind, hence me saying that a game is a sum of the parts. You have to design everything together. But it doesn't have to be tab is lvl 1 skill and aim is lvl 10000 skill. It isn't that big of a difference and in most cases, equal.

    Focusing on movement/aim usually comes with smaller skills. Which balances it out instead of having 50 skills (most of which aren't used) and having to chain them together perfectly. Probably the same amount of effort in both systems.

    I would rather go that route then each class be limited to a small role and or need macros to do an action over and over (many boss fights, including Moroes apparently). 

    Which is why I really hope they make content larger and less focus on 1 mob vs X number of players. More room for personal preference then YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY! Many WoW fights left little room for experimenting (at least early on) and each class had a very set list or single duty. To me this is boring after it because farm status.

    I'll toss this is again as it directly relates to your concern...

    If you could explain how Tera, Smite, Skyrim, TESO and Wildstar (in some ways), TF2, and even newly announced Overwatch fail to allow for Single-AOE-Cone-GTAOE etc style skills, please do. PS2, a full on SOE made bullet spraying twitch FPS has healers... I get you don't like it, but it already works in multiple games in different ways. EQN's system isn't new or untested.

    It appears you think EQN will function like COD for some reason, no clue why, but from what has been shown, I see more Tera, Smite myself. I'm sure there are other similar games with aim combat (does it even have a name?), but I don't need 100 games to know if EQN system will work or not. Based on the little shown and what I've played, it should work FOR ME. If you are against aiming, there simply isn't anything that will change it beyond you giving it a try and liking it or not. If you are looking for WoW/EQ's system to magically work in a completely different design/game, no you won't find it. Doesn't mean it won't still work and be enjoyable for many.

    Here is a very old small article about Tera's healing and obviously everyone's experiences differ, but he gets the point across at the end.

    http://www.pcgamer.com/healing-in-tera-is-more-than-just-whack-a-mole/

    And another that points out some of the issues (you should like this one) and examples of how healing could work in EQN when you think beyond the WoW/EQ box. 

    http://www.gameskinny.com/yijaa/healing-in-tera-cooperate-this-instant

    As both say, healing in action games can be very fun and rewarding. The little SMITE I've played, I usually go for the more supportive gods and in TF2, I've played a lot of Medic. It doesn't have to be all DPS DPS DPS aka COD or even the typical mmorpg these days. Every role can function and be fun if a game is designed well. EQN is still up in the air, but to say XYZ are impossible without even knowing what they are planning seems a bit early.

    Have you played any of the games I listed above or any game that has aiming + roles? Or just COD? Can't really get where you are coming from, beyond enjoying EQ/WoW's style.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I'm assuming   Lets stay with what is IN THE GAME, not your assumptions what it "could" be.. From what I"m seeing and hearing the ONLY heals will be self imposed like GW2, and AE heals.. There will be NO SINGLE TARGET heals like you assume will be in the example below.. lol 

    You could be right, but I have no reason to believe that. That is on you then, not my problem

    Ex: Aim at Tank, Tank moves around, keep aiming at tank (crazy I know), cast 1, 2, 10 second heal while continuing to aim. You can do this while standing still or moving around. Think about it.. Try casting a heal on a moving target that requires you to aim and HIT that target.. Due to the nature of misses and hits, the heal spell would have a wide spread effect.. A 1,000 pt heal done by a good player will give 800 actual heal on average.. Where as that same ability performed by a poor player will only yield a 300 pt heal.. Trying to heal a moving target without auto targeting is VERY bad for the game and will chase less then "good" players away.. This is why anyone thinking of doing shooter combat will resort to "AOE" type of heals.. It minimizes the hit/miss bullshit in trying to heal a moving target..

    EQN isn't "shooter" combat if that term means COD style. EQN is exactly bouncing bunny shooter combat..

    Go way back to the reveal, you're telling me the Warrior shield bashing the Kobolds is shooter combat?  While this SOE Live's demo was much faster paced, it still was in the realm of the typical fantasy combat we've seen for years. Melee swing normal speed, range still shoot/cast at a reasonable pace. This again is without knowing the mechanics that will be in place like resource management and cooldowns. Anytime you perform a combat action without the use or need of a target, that is shooter combat.. Yes, the shield bash is shooter combat, just like Call of Duty has the R3 melee combat skill for mobs in your face..

    If you think that is anything like COD or a FPS style of hold down trigger and run around combat, guess we live in different gamer worlds. Welcome to shooter zerg combat.. EQN is going to play a lot like GW2 with no auto targeting.. Sure there will be heals and other lame watered down roles, but it will be mostly DPS DPS and more DPS by everyone..

    Since you claim to have played WoW regularly, Imagine doing the Moroes raid boss fight without auto targeting.. That would be insanely hard if not impossible unless you dummy down the mobs to account for countless MISSES and MISTAKES in targeting..  And YES, that is exactly what you get..   NO denying that.. FACT

    Could you point out which class/role/skill would be extremely hard without auto target on that fight?  Think about it.. You're in a raid with 25 other players fighting against 5 elite enemy NPC's..So you have 30 targets running around trying to avoid being hit, dodge and evade damage.. You notice one of your team mates are taking serious damage is about to "fall" on the battlefield.. Where is he, so you can SINGLE TARGET HEAL them?  Good luck in finding them in time.. Get the idea?  Your main tank loses his "damage shield" that helps him hold agro, and you need to refresh it... Again, good luck in finding him..  Also take this into consideration.. Main tank, assisting tank and rogue are all fighting the same mob(s) in close proximity of each other.. I have to give the main tank a heal.. OOOOOOOPS.. my poor aim with all the bouncing around healed the rogue that didn't need healing, and the main tank DIED.. Dammit.. Welcome to AOE healing and buffing, etc etc..  It's the easiest and more reliable way of supporting group members when you LOSE the ability to auto target..

    You are correct aiming could be harder and require more active playing, and yes it would need to be designed with misses/mistakes in mind,

    Which is why I really hope they make content larger and less focus on 1 mob vs X number of players. More room for personal preference then YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY! Many WoW fights left little room for experimenting (at least early on) and each class had a very set list or single duty. To me this is boring after it because farm status. That I will agree with.. WoW designed too much of their group/raid content to be about dancing.. You had to learn the dance steps that Blizzard demanded of you, with little or no room for variation and creativity.. EQ1 was more of my liking.. However, when you lesson the role formula like GW2 did, you end up with a zerg mentality.. Class are all hybrid with dps being their main focus..

    I'll toss this is again as it directly relates to your concern...

    If you could explain how Tera, Smite, Skyrim, TESO and Wildstar (in some ways), TF2, and even newly announced Overwatch fail to allow for Single-AOE-Cone-GTAOE etc style skills, please do. PS2, a full on SOE made bullet spraying twitch FPS has healers... I get you don't like it, but it already works in multiple games in different ways. EQN's system isn't new or untested.  I don't play any of those games, so I can not comment on them, however I did look at PS2.. it does not have single target healing.. that is AOE heals.. unless you are counting the "combat rez" skill (which is not a heal on a moving target).. lol

    It appears you think EQN will function like COD for some reason, no clue why, but from what has been shown, I see more Tera, Smite myself. I'm sure there are other similar games with aim combat (does it even have a name?), but I don't need 100 games to know if EQN system will work or not. Based on the little shown and what I've played, it should work FOR ME. If you are against aiming, there simply isn't anything that will change it beyond you giving it a try and liking it or not. If you are looking for WoW/EQ's system to magically work in a completely different design/game, no you won't find it. Doesn't mean it won't still work and be enjoyable for many.

    As both say, healing in action games can be very fun and rewarding. The little SMITE I've played, I usually go for the more supportive gods and in TF2, I've played a lot of Medic. It doesn't have to be all DPS DPS DPS aka COD or even the typical mmorpg these days. Every role can function and be fun if a game is designed well. EQN is still up in the air, but to say XYZ are impossible without even knowing what they are planning seems a bit early.

    Have you played any of the games I listed above or any game that has aiming + roles? Or just COD? Can't really get where you are coming from, beyond enjoying EQ/WoW's style.

         Now I know why I don't play those games either.. they are MOBA style Esport games.. I could give a rats ass about that genre.. They are not traditional MMORPG's  All the support abilities are basically AOE and it requires the group and or raid members to stay HUDDLED together to receive the benefit.. BORING.. That is zergy..

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    PS2 absolutely has direct, single target healing along with the other games listed. You don't have to play them, search " healing" on YouTube. It works. You may not like that that play style, which is fine of course, but aimed play changes the dynamic of the fight while providing the same options. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit of tab targeting that aimed doesn't provide, other than ease of casting multiple spells on a single target without extra work.

    Better or worse is subjective to one's enjoyment but IMO aimed provides a more difficult challenge, something sorely needed in MMOs.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Oops, can't use certain characters, "(insert game) healing"...
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Aelious
    PS2 absolutely has direct, single target healing along with the other games listed. You don't have to play them, search " healing" on YouTube. It works. You may not like that that play style, which is fine of course, but aimed play changes the dynamic of the fight while providing the same options. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit of tab targeting that aimed doesn't provide, other than ease of casting multiple spells on a single target without extra work.

    Better or worse is subjective to one's enjoyment but IMO aimed provides a more difficult challenge, something sorely needed in MMOs.

    And that would be YOUR opinion that it's more challenging..  and NOT something sorely needed..  I could equally contest and say that aiming is more of a hand eye physical skill, while auto targeting promotes more mental logical abilities..  Aiming has NO room for lag, while auto targeting allows it.. I noticed you too glazed over my comment on how you heal ONE team member in a raid of 30 people running around in hectic chaos?   That would be a challenge that is insanely stupid for a dev to implement.. IMO..  You really want a challenge.. NO HEALTH BARS at all on group/raid members list.  :)

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I'm assuming   Lets stay with what is IN THE GAME, not your assumptions what it "could" be.. From what I"m seeing and hearing the ONLY heals will be self imposed like GW2, and AE heals.. There will be NO SINGLE TARGET heals like you assume will be in the example below.. lol 

    You could be right, but I have no reason to believe that. That is on you then, not my problem

    True, but some how you are making the leap to impossible land based on zero reason that I see and can state your opinion as FACT. Where EQN is a fantasy mmorpg and like every other tab or aim based game in the genre, there should be multiple ways to use skills. Why EQN would go off the rails in this area is confusing.

    Ex: Aim at Tank, Tank moves around, keep aiming at tank (crazy I know), cast 1, 2, 10 second heal while continuing to aim. You can do this while standing still or moving around. Think about it.. Try casting a heal on a moving target that requires you to aim and HIT that target.. Due to the nature of misses and hits, the heal spell would have a wide spread effect.. A 1,000 pt heal done by a good player will give 800 actual heal on average.. Where as that same ability performed by a poor player will only yield a 300 pt heal.. Trying to heal a moving target without auto targeting is VERY bad for the game and will chase less then "good" players away.. This is why anyone thinking of doing shooter combat will resort to "AOE" type of heals.. It minimizes the hit/miss bullshit in trying to heal a moving target..

    You might need to think a bit outside the box if that is all you see. What about heals that track/lock on to a moving target? What about aim, cast, if you were aiming at them when it fired, it hits them? You seem to keep going back to this COD mentality where you are firing off skills like bullets that need to be precise head shots. There are many ways for skills to active and land beyond tab/auto aim and precision aiming.

    And while not mandatory, I have nothing wrong with heals being more AOE-GTAOE-Group-Frontal Cone etc. No reason it has to be all 1 to 1 for friendly or enemy. You swing a sword in an arc, but it only hits 1 of 5 mobs in front of you? No rules that say a heal has to only hit 1 player. Again, they aren't going for the dedicated heal bot design. So no need to spam direct heals on one target non stop. Would I like to see a "healer" with a life saving mega heal? Sure, but the class should be more then a single heal machine.

    EQN isn't "shooter" combat if that term means COD style. EQN is exactly bouncing bunny shooter combat..

    Go way back to the reveal, you're telling me the Warrior shield bashing the Kobolds is shooter combat?  While this SOE Live's demo was much faster paced, it still was in the realm of the typical fantasy combat we've seen for years. Melee swing normal speed, range still shoot/cast at a reasonable pace. This again is without knowing the mechanics that will be in place like resource management and cooldowns. Anytime you perform a combat action without the use or need of a target, that is shooter combat.. Yes, the shield bash is shooter combat, just like Call of Duty has the R3 melee combat skill for mobs in your face..

    Lol well we will just have to differ then. Guess Mario is a shooter then, since you can attack things without targeting...

    I'm going to guess that the Warrior shield bash hits anything in the front region, unlike say a bullet which has to hit a precise target.  Your scale of variation of games seems to be a bit smaller then mine. While I don't play COD, I'm going to assume people can't use melee skill to be effective against enemies shooting them in the face or getting to close to friendlies.

    Beyond the very basic concept of both games have a melee attack, I don't see any connection between COD and EQN. And you still need a target, you have to be at least aiming in the general direction of something I'd assume. You simply just have to point your cursor at it and not click the target so it's just 1 step less, both of which take more effort then tab cycling.

    If you think that is anything like COD or a FPS style of hold down trigger and run around combat, guess we live in different gamer worlds. Welcome to shooter zerg combat.. EQN is going to play a lot like GW2 with no auto targeting.. Sure there will be heals and other lame watered down roles, but it will be mostly DPS DPS and more DPS by everyone..

    Proof of this? While I don't totally disagree, I've always thought it silly that roles are so one dimensional. Why can't the Wizard whack someone against the face? Why can't the Cleric club someone in the foot and slow them down? Outside of trinity mmorpgs, fantasy doesn't work like this. Be it movies, books, single player games, PnP, etc. Characters/Classes usually have a bit of diversity to them, even if they have a designated "role."

    As seen with the Cleric, skills can be offensive and defensive. If the goal is to kill an enemy asap, why only have 1/5 the team or whatever doing damage? We'll have to see how it turns out, but unless they carbon copy GW2 classes and make every one have a self heal, self rez, dps, cc, off/def capabilities (they've already alluded to this not being the case), I don't see it happening as you say.

    Since you claim to have played WoW regularly, Imagine doing the Moroes raid boss fight without auto targeting.. That would be insanely hard if not impossible unless you dummy down the mobs to account for countless MISSES and MISTAKES in targeting..  And YES, that is exactly what you get..   NO denying that.. FACT

    Could you point out which class/role/skill would be extremely hard without auto target on that fight?  Think about it.. You're in a raid with 25 other players fighting against 5 elite enemy NPC's..So you have 30 targets running around trying to avoid being hit, dodge and evade damage.. You notice one of your team mates are taking serious damage is about to "fall" on the battlefield.. Where is he, so you can SINGLE TARGET HEAL them?  Good luck in finding them in time.. Get the idea?  Your main tank loses his "damage shield" that helps him hold agro, and you need to refresh it... Again, good luck in finding him..  Also take this into consideration.. Main tank, assisting tank and rogue are all fighting the same mob(s) in close proximity of each other.. I have to give the main tank a heal.. OOOOOOOPS.. my poor aim with all the bouncing around healed the rogue that didn't need healing, and the main tank DIED.. Dammit.. Welcome to AOE healing and buffing, etc etc..  It's the easiest and more reliable way of supporting group members when you LOSE the ability to auto target..

    I do get the idea when you are zoomed out 100 ft like WoW. Take a look at EQN's combat so far or even Landmarks and how people play in the games I listed. A much closer POV helps in this case as does staying together as a unit, not spread across a large map where again in WoW you have off-tanks and whatever mechanics going on with people taunting/CC mobs for X amount of time until the group can focus on them.

    Why can't everyone be in the action and not just playing paddy cake with a mob in the corner? What if the healer is being attacked? How is that "tank" going to hit Bulwark and shield them if they are across the screen? Goes both ways.

    Everything depends highly on how content is designed, if it is copied from WoW, then yes it will be a mess, but I'd bet you that EQN won't copy WoW's mechanics. Why? Different game.

    You say AOE like it is the worst word ever created. You never cast a group heal/buff in your life? Why not drop a AOE/GTAOE heal sphere or even aim and cast it on a tank so he radiates healing to others? Maybe a "healer" channels health around them and everyone needs to be aware of where they are. There are so many ways to design combat that my little mind surely can't be the only one that can think things up.

    As of now, we don't know how game play will actually function, so I can't give you a fact answer, unlike yourself. Simply believe the team is bright enough to not water down game play to zerging or have to rely on one dimensional roles.

    What if that 25 group doesn't have any "healers", what then? We still don't know how far the "no dedicated healers/tanks" design will go. Will content be so easy that no one dies or needs healing? Will everyone have a unlimited self 100% heal? I have no clue, but with 15 years of gaming experience, I'm guessing they aren't clueless. I'm betting your answer will be YES YES YES though =)

    You are correct aiming could be harder and require more active playing, and yes it would need to be designed with misses/mistakes in mind,

    Which is why I really hope they make content larger and less focus on 1 mob vs X number of players. More room for personal preference then YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY! Many WoW fights left little room for experimenting (at least early on) and each class had a very set list or single duty. To me this is boring after it because farm status. That I will agree with.. WoW designed too much of their group/raid content to be about dancing.. You had to learn the dance steps that Blizzard demanded of you, with little or no room for variation and creativity.. EQ1 was more of my liking.. However, when you lesson the role formula like GW2 did, you end up with a zerg mentality.. Class are all hybrid with dps being their main focus..

    I agree, but again, no evidence of EQN being like GW2, they've specifically said they've played GW2 and see/have the same issues some of us have. That's why I don't get the whole one extreme or another deal. It's either WoW, GW2, or COD. There are no other ways to design a game? No chance the devs saying they are thinking outside the box and doing things never done before, might not be exactly what's been done before?

    I'll toss this is again as it directly relates to your concern...

    If you could explain how Tera, Smite, Skyrim, TESO and Wildstar (in some ways), TF2, and even newly announced Overwatch fail to allow for Single-AOE-Cone-GTAOE etc style skills, please do. PS2, a full on SOE made bullet spraying twitch FPS has healers... I get you don't like it, but it already works in multiple games in different ways. EQN's system isn't new or untested.  I don't play any of those games, so I can not comment on them, however I did look at PS2.. it does not have single target healing.. that is AOE heals.. unless you are counting the "combat rez" skill (which is not a heal on a moving target).. lol

    They have a Medical Applicator which can single target heal moving players (it locks on to them without needing tab, I know it's crazy that there are different mechanics within one game). Very FPSish, but a easy example of "healing" working in a "shooter."

    Take 10 steps back and start factoring in fantasy mmorpg mechanics and it becomes even easier for it to function properly. Plenty of videos of healing/support characters in any of those game if you need examples. While all vary in popularity, they are all big name games without anything special allowing for aiming + insert skill type working. It simply works in a game designed for it.

    The fact that you haven't played any of those gives me the impression you simply don't have enough experience to make a informed opinion. If your experience is based on EQ/WoW and COD, that isn't much to go on. Saying you dislike something without any experience is kind of closed minded.

    I like how those games work and could hate EQN, but if it works anything like them, I don't see why I would. I've played all of those games (some much more then others) and I've yet to ever go "Man I really wish I could just hit tab right now" or "How can I do XYZ without auto targets!" Yet I enjoyed the targeting system in EQ, WoW, DAoC, Aion, GW2, WAR, GW1, AC, UO, SWG...

    It appears you think EQN will function like COD for some reason, no clue why, but from what has been shown, I see more Tera, Smite myself. I'm sure there are other similar games with aim combat (does it even have a name?), but I don't need 100 games to know if EQN system will work or not. Based on the little shown and what I've played, it should work FOR ME. If you are against aiming, there simply isn't anything that will change it beyond you giving it a try and liking it or not. If you are looking for WoW/EQ's system to magically work in a completely different design/game, no you won't find it. Doesn't mean it won't still work and be enjoyable for many.

    As both say, healing in action games can be very fun and rewarding. The little SMITE I've played, I usually go for the more supportive gods and in TF2, I've played a lot of Medic. It doesn't have to be all DPS DPS DPS aka COD or even the typical mmorpg these days. Every role can function and be fun if a game is designed well. EQN is still up in the air, but to say XYZ are impossible without even knowing what they are planning seems a bit early.

    Have you played any of the games I listed above or any game that has aiming + roles? Or just COD? Can't really get where you are coming from, beyond enjoying EQ/WoW's style.

         Now I know why I don't play those games either.. they are MOBA style Esport games.. I could give a rats ass about that genre.. They are not traditional MMORPG's  All the support abilities are basically AOE and it requires the group and or raid members to stay HUDDLED together to receive the benefit.. BORING.. That is zergy..

    Huh? Tera, The Elder Scrolls Online, Wildstar are MOBA? News to me. Despite Smite being a MOBA/FPS, TF2/PS2/Overwatch being FPS, they still have a lot of "traditional" aspects to them. Skill bars, gear, builds, roles etc. Nothing like say COD. Again, back to the game scale, you seem to have a very small one. EQN looks to share things in common with TERA/Smite and most likely they others when it comes to combat, but it is no where near MOBA/FPS land.

    This concept of AOE, playing together, team work, awareness of what is going on being evil, seems odd. Guess I don't find it very exciting to have players spread across a huge map throwing skills 100 yards to each other while each does it's little duty alone. I want to play as a team. Zergy apparently is any number of people working together?

    Did you play EQ? Players were "huddled" together in camps and very much so in dungeons, yet I don't remember it being called Zerging. I don't remember pullers just going to town on their own, they brought mobs back to the group where the battle went down. Even then, there is no reason large scale encounters can't work with aim targeting, once again, it works in various games, regardless if you have played them or choose to believe it.

    Did you read those 2 articles I linked? While they won't change your mind, they give a decent view of pros/cons of the aim system in a mmorpg. I still find it strange that you discuss/follow a game that you clearly are opposed to in fundamental ways, but maybe you'll come around and enjoy it in the end. Thank you F2P =)

    Edit: And just an FYI, EQN might not be a traditional mmorpg as you see it. You might not give a rats ass about different games/genres, but EQN might fall in there somewhere and you seem to care enough. Might want to at least look into similar products and get an idea of what SOE seems to be doing. All we can do is compare at this point, but there is plenty to look at for source material outside of GW2 being the worst game ever to you.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Aelious
    PS2 absolutely has direct, single target healing along with the other games listed. You don't have to play them, search " healing" on YouTube. It works. You may not like that that play style, which is fine of course, but aimed play changes the dynamic of the fight while providing the same options. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit of tab targeting that aimed doesn't provide, other than ease of casting multiple spells on a single target without extra work.

    Better or worse is subjective to one's enjoyment but IMO aimed provides a more difficult challenge, something sorely needed in MMOs.

    And that would be YOUR opinion that it's more challenging..  and NOT something sorely needed..  I could equally contest and say that aiming is more of a hand eye physical skill, while auto targeting promotes more mental logical abilities..  Aiming has NO room for lag, while auto targeting allows it.. I noticed you too glazed over my comment on how you heal ONE team member in a raid of 30 people running around in hectic chaos?   That would be a challenge that is insanely stupid for a dev to implement.. IMO..  You really want a challenge.. NO HEALTH BARS at all on group/raid members list.  :)

     

    I don't think there would be a difference in mental abilities, they could have the same toolset, just different delivery methods. That's why I make a case that aimed targeting would be more of a challenge, because on top of deciding what skill to use and when, you also have to keep LoS and hand-eye coordination in mind.

     

    Lag is a good point but depending on the severity of the lag and the difficulty of the fight, you'd be hosed in either case.

     

    As far as a 30 man raid I'll assume that there would be five or six healers so the heals would be spread out. I would point out there has been a lot of front loaded grief about EQN possibly being "zergy" like GW2. Maybe encounters that have more than 10-15 people would be handicapped just for that reason. A self-policing safeguard? Aside from that there would need to be coordination just like in any raid. Both healers and everyone else would have to know where they need to be and when. I thought this would be a good thing for group mechanics in an MMO.

     

    You brought up PS2 and how they didn't have single target heals, just AoE via healing aura and "chained" heals that bounce. The Medic in PS2 can, in fact, have all of those thought they start off single target, the rest come with certs as a class perk. The same could be used in EQN. We've seen the Cleric field be placed, we've seen the Elementalist put down a field that turned dirt into ice. With aimed targeting you can have single target, chained, targeted that changes to aura, self aura, etc. healing.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Aelious
    PS2 absolutely has direct, single target healing along with the other games listed. You don't have to play them, search " healing" on YouTube. It works. You may not like that that play style, which is fine of course, but aimed play changes the dynamic of the fight while providing the same options. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit of tab targeting that aimed doesn't provide, other than ease of casting multiple spells on a single target without extra work.

    Better or worse is subjective to one's enjoyment but IMO aimed provides a more difficult challenge, something sorely needed in MMOs.

    And that would be YOUR opinion that it's more challenging..  and NOT something sorely needed..  I could equally contest and say that aiming is more of a hand eye physical skill, while auto targeting promotes more mental logical abilities..  Aiming has NO room for lag, while auto targeting allows it.. I noticed you too glazed over my comment on how you heal ONE team member in a raid of 30 people running around in hectic chaos?   That would be a challenge that is insanely stupid for a dev to implement.. IMO..  You really want a challenge.. NO HEALTH BARS at all on group/raid members list.  :)

     

    I don't think there would be a difference in mental abilities, they could have the same toolset, just different delivery methods. That's why I make a case that aimed targeting would be more of a challenge, because on top of deciding what skill to use and when, you also have to keep LoS and hand-eye coordination in mind.  And because you have to keep LoS and keep moving while healing, all spells and skills have to be "insta" cast to avoid the dreaded "INTERRUPT".. oops.. did you forget that?  That was something all casters had to keep in mind when doing their job.. NO MOVING, or being hit while casting.. From what I see in EQN, all casters will have to be mobile and will be hit regularly.. =  NO MORE INTERRUPT to worry about..  That feature or issue has been removed from the game due to shooter combat..  TY.. :(  This is why casters stayed away from the chaos..

     Lag is a good point but depending on the severity of the lag and the difficulty of the fight, you'd be hosed in either case.  No you wouldn't..  In shooter combat, a second delay is a game breaker.. That ONE second in a game where players are mobile means everything.. I shot you!.. No you didn't, your computer made you think you did, but in reality, I moved a 1/2 second ago and you missed.. Lag sucks..  In an auto target system, that 1/2 second lag has NO EFFECT on mobile players.. Lag only becomes an issue when clicking on spells and abilities.. Which is less severe then aim targeting.. 

     As far as a 30 man raid I'll assume that there would be five or six healers so the heals would be spread out. I would point out there has been a lot of front loaded grief about EQN possibly being "zergy" like GW2. Maybe encounters that have more than 10-15 people would be handicapped just for that reason. A self-policing safeguard? Aside from that there would need to be coordination just like in any raid. Both healers and everyone else would have to know where they need to be and when. I thought this would be a good thing for group mechanics in an MMO. You're not getting it..  The problem isn't the workload of having enough healers, the issue is FINDING that player that needs heals in a crowd of moving targets and actually HITTING your target without missing or hitting the wrong target..  Imagine this:  A group of 10 players battling a group of 8 orcs.. One player needs a heal desperately, try to find him in that chaos, and shoot him a heal without missing him (lag), or healing the wrong target? Because I know this will happen often, I suspect that people will not have man/energy issues to manage because you'll need to cast that heal spell MULTIPLE times before you complete your job as healer.. LOL  This is why I suspect almost all the heals will be in a form of AOE delivery, just like buffs..

     You brought up PS2 and how they didn't have single target heals, just AoE via healing aura and "chained" heals that bounce. The Medic in PS2 can, in fact, have all of those thought they start off single target, the rest come with certs as a class perk. The same could be used in EQN. We've seen the Cleric field be placed, we've seen the Elementalist put down a field that turned dirt into ice. With aimed targeting you can have single target, chained, targeted that changes to aura, self aura, etc. healing.

    I still sense that many of ya'll think that just because you can toss around some bandages, that makes you a healer.. This is exactly why many do not like the direction the MMO genre is going, where everyone is MAINLY  dps, and then have minor side roles like support and heal..  I like GW2, but every class feels like dps hybrid, which is why it's so zergy when playing with others.. I don't see EQN playing any different..  Rift is very much the same way as well.. Just charge in, with little or no strategy and deal with whatever happens..

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Rydeson

    You seem to think "we're" not getting it and somehow you and your "vets" do. Which woidl make sense if it wasn't for the handful of titles that already show that it works, and in large group settings as well. So because most of the spells may not have long casting times they are not "real" heals? You're probably right that mobility will be traded for long cast times but to be that's a great trade. Doesn't have to be the rule though.

    ANet intentionally made GW2 healing the way it is and SoE doesn't have to follow that same path. Will they? Doubtful considering what info we have buy its their prerogative. It does not have to be that way however and GW2 doesn't even have aimed combat so I'm not quite sure what the comparison is for other than straw man.

    Aimed combat is not acceptable to you. That's fine, it doesn't need to be in order to make EQN or have it be fun. Mechanics wise it's different but can accomplish the same goals, despite what you think dictates "real" healing. I for one can't wait. I have to however so I'll keep enjoying my tab target fun until then because I can enjoy both :)
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Oh, one thing I forgot to mention was channeled healing. That would probably augment the toolset where instead of standing there to cast you'd "paint" the target. This is how single target healing works in PS2 where health, while channeled, goes up incrementally. There are, in fact, a lot of ways to implement healing and still include casting times for some.
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Rydeson

    You seem to think "we're" not getting it and somehow you and your "vets" do.

    Aimed combat is not acceptable to you. That's fine, it doesn't need to be in order to make EQN or have it be fun. Mechanics wise it's different but can accomplish the same goals, despite what you think dictates "real" healing. I for one can't wait. I have to however so I'll keep enjoying my tab target fun until then because I can enjoy both :)

         I went and looked how aim combat works in a number of games such as PS2.. It is painfully clear that some promoting aim combat are supporting a  PVP mentality.. As one thread in "The Pub" section talks about.. PvE and PvP do NOT mix well, and I wholeheartedly agree.  Playing a combat medic is a DPS hybrid class.. Which is what I'm saying about ALL these new classes in these moba style games.. EVERYONE is forced to dps, or they hurt themselves and the group they are in..  In a PvE world, aim combat requires certain skills be nerfed, or ignored for the sake of PvP balance.. As a combat medic can I stand back and shoot long range 20 meter heals?  OH HELLLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOO.. And rightfully so too.. But if you think active shooter combat is fun in a PvE world, I don't.. 

         As I said, and I think most everyone on this website agrees.. PvE mechanics do NOT mix well with PvP mechanics.. EQN is obviously trying to appease the PvP crowd at the expense of a well rounded and exciting PvE game play..  But we'll have to wait and see, but lets see if EQN allows me to snare targets and kite them to death.. or lets see if EQN allows me to mez or charm targets for MINUTES at a time, or lets see if we have the magical ability to levitate and run over valleys like "spirit of eagle" or dmf..  I suspect from what I have seen so far that melee combat will be avoided, so why bother with damage shields when most everyone are using range weapons.. LOL  I wonder if I can use my archery skills to fire a "sleep" arrow that stuns my target for 1 FULL minute? OH NO, I doubt that as that would not be PvP friendly.. LOL  Get the idea now?    But like I said, we'll see what the array of SKILLS and SPELLS look like once SOE releases them, IF they ever do..

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Rydeson

    You seem to think "we're" not getting it and somehow you and your "vets" do.

    Aimed combat is not acceptable to you. That's fine, it doesn't need to be in order to make EQN or have it be fun. Mechanics wise it's different but can accomplish the same goals, despite what you think dictates "real" healing. I for one can't wait. I have to however so I'll keep enjoying my tab target fun until then because I can enjoy both :)

         I went and looked how aim combat works in a number of games such as PS2.. It is painfully clear that some promoting aim combat are supporting a  PVP mentality.. As one thread in "The Pub" section talks about.. PvE and PvP do NOT mix well, and I wholeheartedly agree.  Playing a combat medic is a DPS hybrid class.. Which is what I'm saying about ALL these new classes in these moba style games.. EVERYONE is forced to dps, or they hurt themselves and the group they are in..  In a PvE world, aim combat requires certain skills be nerfed, or ignored for the sake of PvP balance.. As a combat medic can I stand back and shoot long range 20 meter heals?  OH HELLLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOO.. And rightfully so too.. But if you think active shooter combat is fun in a PvE world, I don't.. 

    They've already said that dedicated healers won't be a thing or at least not required. So a player standing 20 meters away spamming heals probably won't exist to the extent of previous games. No surprises here. Unfortunately for you, your preference has been overshadowed as most gamers now play active games in some form. People want to be moving, fighting, in the action. Not off the the edge doing a one dimensional role/task.

         As I said, and I think most everyone on this website agrees.. PvE mechanics do NOT mix well with PvP mechanics.. EQN is obviously trying to appease the PvP crowd at the expense of a well rounded and exciting PvE game play..  But we'll have to wait and see, but lets see if EQN allows me to snare targets and kite them to death.. or lets see if EQN allows me to mez or charm targets for MINUTES at a time, or lets see if we have the magical ability to levitate and run over valleys like "spirit of eagle" or dmf..  I suspect from what I have seen so far that melee combat will be avoided, so why bother with damage shields when most everyone are using range weapons.. LOL  I wonder if I can use my archery skills to fire a "sleep" arrow that stuns my target for 1 FULL minute? OH NO, I doubt that as that would not be PvP friendly.. LOL  Get the idea now?    But like I said, we'll see what the array of SKILLS and SPELLS look like once SOE releases them, IF they ever do..

    Since the AI is supposed to be more player like (PVPish) it makes sense that combat would reflect that. Go do PVP in WoW or EQ. Do you play like you do in PVE? Certain skills have little to no use, others become very useful.

    You bring up all this long term CC. Why would you need to do so? You seem to assume that content would function the same as previous games that relies on such mechanics. While I get you might enjoy putting a mob to sleep for a min with an arrow, what would you be doing during that time instead of killing them? If you've seen any of the demo combat, you should of noticed action is fast and melee can move around easily. The traditional design of "tanks" or melee being slow sacks of HP and armor are being displaced somewhat. Hence the whole "Heroic" movement/combat design. The Hulk aka the Warrior doesn't stand in place and taunt an enemy, he is running, jumping, bashing, smashing, swinging, throwing, etc. 

    EQN is not EQ/WoW. Just as it isn't X game. Different game, different design. Might as well question why EQN doesn't have Blood Elves or Tauren. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

    I think I addressed many of your issues with my wall of text a few posts up, but no matter what anyone says you are clearly going to dislike EQN. You want EQ 3 and it isn't happening. Even SOE is smart enough not to make that mistake.

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