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EQN's primary focus is the PS4?

VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,898

I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

 

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Comments

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    here's a quote, with a source, from a year ago August 2013

    http://www.shacknews.com/article/80474/everquest-next-needs-to-be-kickass-on-pc-first-before

    "We need to make sure that it's a kickass game on PC before we do anything else," EverQuest franchise director Dave Georgeson told Shacknews. "We're going to nail down all our questions and design and everything like that so that it's a really good game. Then we'll talk about other platforms."

     

    i never heard Smed saying *when* EQN will be on PS4

    you have a sourced link?

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,826

    The limited number of abilities was a big tip-off.

    Also, look at DCUO, and PS2. Console-oriented. THey are telegraphing the direction they are taking pretty loudly.

    And, look at the name of the company: Sony. I'm surprised they hadn't pushed SOE to the console much earlier, like when the PS3 was struggling early on (or maybe that is when they started to push, but Online games are just that far out in the pipeline we didn't start to see it until DCUO). I guess we had EQOA early on.

    It may come to the PC first - but it's console oriented for certain.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

    I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

     

    First of all, I think it's smart to lock down the console market. It's Sony and EQN, H1Z1, PS2 will all sell consoles. With every other business unit basically taking a bath, Playstation and SOE might actually be the only bright lights remaining. 

     

    Secondly, you're equating abilities with depth. I think that's probably one of the worst paradigms that we ever established in MMOs. Personally, I play tank classes exclusively and 90% of my time in combat spent in one hotbar. That'll probably be more, now that they've trimmed abilities. There are so many other ways the create depth. Things like procs, buffs, chaining abilities, combinations, etc. THAT is depth. There is, literally, an infinite number of possibilities. There could be 20 button chains that unleash devastating attacks. There could be 100 button combinations. What do we have right now? We press a button and all of our abilities go on a global cooldown....... Sorry, that's not depth. 

     

    I'm hoping that it's good on consoles, because that's where I'd like to play it, but I really want a solid PC game too, plus a single account so I can play on either platform please!! 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

    I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

     

    Focus is PC not PS4.. it seems to be a tent with a lot of recent mmos to have less skills on your hotbar...  but saying that having a million slot hot bar does not make a game good or more complex anyway.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    The limited number of abilities was a big tip-off.

    look at DCUO, and PS2. Console-oriented. THey are telegraphing the direction they are taking pretty loudly.

    I agree EQN will be ported to consoles but it  will likely be a year after PC  (like Elder Scrolls)

     

    FreeRealms: PC first,  came to consoles 2 years later

    Planetside 2: PC first,  coming to consoles 2 years later  (late this year)

    DCUO is the only SOE mmo that had a simultaneous multiplatform release

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

    I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

     

    Focus is PC not PS4.. it seems to be a tent with a lot of recent mmos to have less skills on your hotbar...  but saying that having a million slot hot bar does not make a game good or more complex anyway.

    A Million slots would be bad. 8 slots are bad too.

    You want to have one eye, or three? No, two eyes is fine. 16-24 buttons is ideal.

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A Million slots would be bad. 8 slots are bad too.

    You want to have one eye, or three? No, two eyes is fine. 16-24 buttons is ideal.

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    You could make it with 12 slots as long as they are very different and timing really matters, particularly if you use chain skills.

    But yes 4-8 ain't enough (and that is from someone who played GW for 5 years, the 8 slots was really my biggest turnoff there).

    What truly matters however is how fun the combat is, and focusing on timing and positioning lets you use less skills then a game where you more or less hit the same spot the entire combat.

    24 buttons work really well for spellcasters but is frankly a bit much for a melee fighting warrior, that tends to mean that many attacks becomes rather similar to eachothers and having 5 very similar attacks are exactly as fun as a single one.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,567
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    +1

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A Million slots would be bad. 8 slots are bad too.

    You want to have one eye, or three? No, two eyes is fine. 16-24 buttons is ideal.

    Doesn't matter how many buttons though, the combat they came up with is absolute fucking trash anyway.

    You could make it with 12 slots as long as they are very different and timing really matters, particularly if you use chain skills.

    But yes 4-8 ain't enough (and that is from someone who played GW for 5 years, the 8 slots was really my biggest turnoff there).

    What truly matters however is how fun the combat is, and focusing on timing and positioning lets you use less skills then a game where you more or less hit the same spot the entire combat.

    24 buttons work really well for spellcasters but is frankly a bit much for a melee fighting warrior, that tends to mean that many attacks becomes rather similar to eachothers and having 5 very similar attacks are exactly as fun as a single one.

    I agree that 12 done right could work, and mainly from a melee perspective, but I think that the problem with fewer attacks is that for me it sometimes feels like the variety takes a hit. In GW2 I was bored of my options, and the inability to customize and expand was stifling.

    the thing I don't get is why there is this trend of mandating linearity in UI and Builds. Games have to be so static and balanced that there is no room for exploration in how you play?

    Will all players quit if they can't quantify the builds and point counts so that they essentially make the hard fights mechanically easy? This of course forces game designers to tune up difficulty so that doable is only achieved by maxing out a few sacred builds.

    There is something very wrong with how this plays out to me, and it's super boring. Why have an RPG if you have to build the same guy each time? Makes no sense. I made a warrior, now guess what, there is either a roadmap that I have to follow, or the devs just take away trees and make you follow the righteous path to stat superiority.

    There must be some other answer to this problem.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    I agree that 12 done right could work, and mainly from a melee perspective, but I think that the problem with fewer attacks is that for me it sometimes feels like the variety takes a hit. In GW2 I was bored of my options, and the inability to customize and expand was stifling.

    the thing I don't get is why there is this trend of mandating linearity in UI and Builds. Games have to be so static and balanced that there is no room for exploration in how you play?

    Will all players quit if they can't quantify the builds and point counts so that they essentially make the hard fights mechanically easy? This of course forces game designers to tune up difficulty so that doable is only achieved by maxing out a few sacred builds.

    There is something very wrong with how this plays out to me, and it's super boring. Why have an RPG if you have to build the same guy each time? Makes no sense. I made a warrior, now guess what, there is either a roadmap that I have to follow, or the devs just take away trees and make you follow the righteous path to stat superiority.

    There must be some other answer to this problem.

    Have you heard of EQN? =)

    40 classes x 12 abilities each (at least) = 480 abilities. 

    4 to swap per class = 160 to some what freely play with.

    X number of items and achievements that can alter abilities in multiple ways.

    They will be adding classes, items, achievements in as time goes on, increasing these numbers.

    Add all this up and you have endless possibilities to build a character.

    While I had no trouble with GW2's limitations as I played a lot in the arena with multiple classes/builds, I do see the limitations. Especially when every single class had the same basic outline with varying degrees of useful builds within each.

    EQN takes the limited skill bar (which has been around since the start, 8 in EQ) tosses in a few more slots but then allows quite a lot of customization. Not total freedom like some games, but they keep the some what traditional and iconic class designs/roles going but allowing more options.

    I'm sure there will be min/max "best" builds for particular things, but there is a huge amount of experimentation room for players. Don't like the basic Warrior? Add in other class skills or find gear/achievements that change the base enough that it fits better. Better still, play another "Warrior" type class that is completely different.

    I'll admit, EQN has a lot of things going on that people might not like, but the class system seems pretty nice compared to most. Trying to hold on to the "old school" iconic classes, while allowing for more player choice. Even with the little shown so far, it comes across as being more entertaining and complex then EQ, EQ2, WoW, GW2, etc. EQN shouldn't be lacking variety at all.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

    I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

    Smed can talk all he wants. He can't snap his fingers and make the game appear on any system. They don't appear to be developing for the PS4 currently, not that they can't be planning ahead, but it won't be out any time soon.

    They were never going with 4 abilities on the bar. 12 has been the number since the start. I'm assuming they'll be more announced later (consumables, clickies, and what not).

    Total number =/= complexity level. They can go hand in hand, but many other factors come into play.

    EQ is praised by many around here as the most amazing thing ever, yet only had 8 skills for several years. MOBAs/FPS have few skills and aren't "easy" to master or we'd all be making millions on the competitive level.

    As seen with FFXIV ARR, a fairly standard mmorpg can be made for a console, maybe not as complex as some would like, but not too simple either. It has more skills then EQN will have also.

    I wouldn't doubt if EQN comes to PS4 eventually, but it will most likely be a different game to some degree or at least tailored to fit the system (UI and Controls). Probably be some what popular, but if it isn't cross platform like FFXIV, highly doubt it would be too alluring to most mmorpg fans. Of course they could be going after the so called "console crowd" but again, doubt there would be many takers as if you are in that crowd, why would you want to play a mmorpg?

  • jacker1991jacker1991 Member UncommonPosts: 191
    It could probably run on a PS1 so they could/should. :D
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,898
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I remember Smed saying that the game will be on that system at the beginning of the year, but I wasn't expecting it to be seemingly primarily designed with that audience in mind...

    Are they still going with 4 abilities on your hot bar at a time? I mean, I get that this is great for a controller, but it seems to lack depth?

    I don't hate consoles, but I guess this probably doesn't spell out anything good for deep challenge or complexity for this title.

    Smed can talk all he wants. He can't snap his fingers and make the game appear on any system. They don't appear to be developing for the PS4 currently, not that they can't be planning ahead, but it won't be out any time soon.

     

    Sure, I hear you, but it is worth noting that the PS4 game has been confirmed already.

    Just because they are using the PC version as their test bed, in the same way as they are using Landmark as the same, doesn't mean that it isn't the focus.

     

    They were never going with 4 abilities on the bar. 12 has been the number since the start. I'm assuming they'll be more announced later (consumables, clickies, and what not).

     

    Consumables and clickies are not abilities/ skills in the sense being discussed.

    The demos I have seen, and I admit I haven't seen them all by a long shot so am willing to be educated with links etc, talk about 4 slot abilities. I actually saw an interview for Fanfaire this year that talked about the 4 slots, explaining that environment and cross skill effects would make it  somewhat deeper.

    It actually felt like he was getting the explanations and excuses in early a bit to me tbh, but my mind remains open.

     

    I wouldn't doubt if EQN comes to PS4 eventually, but it will most likely be a different game to some degree or at least tailored to fit the system (UI and Controls). Probably be some what popular, but if it isn't cross platform like FFXIV, highly doubt it would be too alluring to most mmorpg fans. Of course they could be going after the so called "console crowd" but again, doubt there would be many takers as if you are in that crowd, why would you want to play a mmorpg?

     

    This last bit confuses me somewhat... Why wouldn't a SOE cash shop led MMORPG not be viable on a Sony console?

    It being a different game seems somewhat of an assumption, considering Smed seems to be aiming the game directly at the PS4 even now. Designing  with both in mind from the outset seems the sensible business approach from the get go?

     

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,898
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    The limited number of abilities was a big tip-off.

    look at DCUO, and PS2. Console-oriented. THey are telegraphing the direction they are taking pretty loudly.

    I agree EQN will be ported to consoles but it  will likely be a year after PC  (like Elder Scrolls)

    DCUO is the only SOE mmo that had a simultaneous multiplatform release

     

    So we agree that there is a precedent? 

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Smed can talk all he wants. He can't snap his fingers and make the game appear on any system. They don't appear to be developing for the PS4 currently, not that they can't be planning ahead, but it won't be out any time soon.

    Sure, I hear you, but it is worth noting that the PS4 game has been confirmed already.

    Just because they are using the PC version as their test bed, in the same way as they are using Landmark as the same, doesn't mean that it isn't the focus.

     "Confirmed" not made. If EQN isn't a money maker, there won't be a PS4 version. Even then, the amount of work that might need to go into a PS4 version might be years. He could confirm it for his iPhone if he wants, doesn't make it reality. Could release in 2020 and still be truthful. If you've played any Landmark, you might have seen they are trying to make the UI and gameplay as minimum as possible (not perfect yet). Going to a console wouldn't really mean too much to the PC version that I'd see. People play WoW, GW2, FFXIV with a controller no problem...

    They were never going with 4 abilities on the bar. 12 has been the number since the start. I'm assuming they'll be more announced later (consumables, clickies, and what not).

    Consumables and clickies are not abilities/ skills in the sense being discussed. 

    Just meant that there might be more to the UI then we know, we haven't even seen it yet.

    The demos I have seen, and I admit I haven't seen them all by a long shot so am willing to be educated with links etc, talk about 4 slot abilities. I actually saw an interview for Fanfaire this year that talked about the 4 slots, explaining that environment and cross skill effects would make it  somewhat deeper.

    It actually felt like he was getting the explanations and excuses in early a bit to me tbh, but my mind remains open.

     http://everquestnext.wikia.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

    12 skills during combat. 8 visible at a time. 4 of the 8 can be swapped during battle (switch weapons). So three groups of 4. Might be where you saw/heard the number. 4 slots are open to swap skills from other classes as well.

    Gear, other class skills, and achievements can alter the default class skills to act very differently. They've also confirmed combos of some sort, which could mean a lot more "skills" depending how it works.

    Overall, the class/build system has a decent amount of depth compared to most popular mmorpgs. Instead of having 50 skills on a screen and only using 10-20 at a time, you'll make a build of 12 and work with it. Then swap to another build/class as needed.

    I wouldn't doubt if EQN comes to PS4 eventually, but it will most likely be a different game to some degree or at least tailored to fit the system (UI and Controls). Probably be some what popular, but if it isn't cross platform like FFXIV, highly doubt it would be too alluring to most mmorpg fans. Of course they could be going after the so called "console crowd" but again, doubt there would be many takers as if you are in that crowd, why would you want to play a mmorpg?

    This last bit confuses me somewhat... Why wouldn't a SOE cash shop led MMORPG not be viable on a Sony console?

    Who plays mmorpgs? PC or console players? Since there is some huge distinction apparently, I don't know why someone that plays Halo would jump all over EQN. Destiny is a good mix, but still pretty much a FPS. Obviously folks that enjoy a variety of games (myself), but many only play a particular genre or system for a reason. Not saying it couldn't be a huge console hit and fail on PC, but seem unlikely. Didn't say it couldn't be viable, simply that if they are releasing first on PC (which they are) and it made no profit, would be very surprised if they then tossed more cash at it to develop for PS4. Then again they could be developing for both currently and simply not telling the truth when asked.

    It being a different game seems somewhat of an assumption, considering Smed seems to be aiming the game directly at the PS4 even now. Designing  with both in mind from the outset seems the sensible business approach from the get go?

     I'll agree that they are probably pre-planning for PS4, but what alterations need to be made to make that happen? Most mmorpgs could be played on a console with a controller with minimum changes. Clean up the UI to make it easier to navigate (do it for the PC while their at it) and make the controls less of hassle (again, PC please). Beyond that, the content itself doesn't need to be "dumbed down" or anything. As seen with other games, beyond having to tweak the graphics and power to make it not melt a console, porting doesn't have to be a huge deal. As far as "diferent" I meant maybe PS4 can only handle 50 people in an area and PC can handle 200, they'd need to design around that.

    What you are seeing beyond the limited skill bar that would have you believe it is being "directed" at the PS4 is confusing to me. EQ had 8 skills and played fine on PC, along with countless other games without a screen filled with boxes.

     

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    I agree that 12 done right could work, and mainly from a melee perspective, but I think that the problem with fewer attacks is that for me it sometimes feels like the variety takes a hit. In GW2 I was bored of my options, and the inability to customize and expand was stifling.

    the thing I don't get is why there is this trend of mandating linearity in UI and Builds. Games have to be so static and balanced that there is no room for exploration in how you play?

    Will all players quit if they can't quantify the builds and point counts so that they essentially make the hard fights mechanically easy? This of course forces game designers to tune up difficulty so that doable is only achieved by maxing out a few sacred builds.

    There is something very wrong with how this plays out to me, and it's super boring. Why have an RPG if you have to build the same guy each time? Makes no sense. I made a warrior, now guess what, there is either a roadmap that I have to follow, or the devs just take away trees and make you follow the righteous path to stat superiority.

    There must be some other answer to this problem.

    Have you heard of EQN? =)

    40 classes x 12 abilities each (at least) = 480 abilities. 

    4 to swap per class = 160 to some what freely play with.

    X number of items and achievements that can alter abilities in multiple ways.

    They will be adding classes, items, achievements in as time goes on, increasing these numbers.

    Add all this up and you have endless possibilities to build a character.

    While I had no trouble with GW2's limitations as I played a lot in the arena with multiple classes/builds, I do see the limitations. Especially when every single class had the same basic outline with varying degrees of useful builds within each.

    EQN takes the limited skill bar (which has been around since the start, 8 in EQ) tosses in a few more slots but then allows quite a lot of customization. Not total freedom like some games, but they keep the some what traditional and iconic class designs/roles going but allowing more options.

    I'm sure there will be min/max "best" builds for particular things, but there is a huge amount of experimentation room for players. Don't like the basic Warrior? Add in other class skills or find gear/achievements that change the base enough that it fits better. Better still, play another "Warrior" type class that is completely different.

    I'll admit, EQN has a lot of things going on that people might not like, but the class system seems pretty nice compared to most. Trying to hold on to the "old school" iconic classes, while allowing for more player choice. Even with the little shown so far, it comes across as being more entertaining and complex then EQ, EQ2, WoW, GW2, etc. EQN shouldn't be lacking variety at all.

    Where did you get 12 buttons?

    4 weapon + 4 secondary = 8 Buttons

    I think the class system has some potential, but it's not really classes, they would have been better named something else. 4 buttons is not a class to me. I don't care what game had 5 or 8 buttons or 2, that shit sucks, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to have a tiny few buttons.

    Although if the EQN combat is framed from the Landmark combat, hitting those extra 6 buttons will feel like a cornucopia of choices, which makes me wonder why they can't just allow the extra buttons?

    I imagine the reason is that having 16 buttons would break their system, and in PvP/PvE the 16 button guy would destroy the 8 button Console pounder. SO that cuts off a revenue stream and is verboten. If they have separate servers for PS4 and PC, then I guess it just means they thought their idea was milk from the golden calf, and drank the groupthink juice like when they decided that Little Mermaid characters would be cool as all get out.

    If they were going for an essentially de-classed game, then they have considered the balancing issue, and I imagine they did something like GW2, and made the balance sheet end up as square as they could, which essentially just means you get 8 animations for the same power.

    Speaking of those animations, that seems like another restrictor they built in, as each weapon supposedly has different animations based on the class of the guy who holds it. So adding combinations requires animation work, so that is probably something you can forget ever happening. When you are Warrior primary and hold a spear, you get those animations because that Warrior/Spear/1 action is hard locked. You can change out 5678 buttons, but the weapon sets are fixed, so I'm not falling for the "classes built from scratch" pitch. You get Warrior Spear with what is essentially a tree for 5678 but locked to warrior prefix (Movement,Offense, Offense, Defense, etc.).

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    I agree that 12 done right could work, and mainly from a melee perspective, but I think that the problem with fewer attacks is that for me it sometimes feels like the variety takes a hit. In GW2 I was bored of my options, and the inability to customize and expand was stifling.

    the thing I don't get is why there is this trend of mandating linearity in UI and Builds. Games have to be so static and balanced that there is no room for exploration in how you play?

    Will all players quit if they can't quantify the builds and point counts so that they essentially make the hard fights mechanically easy? This of course forces game designers to tune up difficulty so that doable is only achieved by maxing out a few sacred builds.

    There is something very wrong with how this plays out to me, and it's super boring. Why have an RPG if you have to build the same guy each time? Makes no sense. I made a warrior, now guess what, there is either a roadmap that I have to follow, or the devs just take away trees and make you follow the righteous path to stat superiority.

    There must be some other answer to this problem.

    Have you heard of EQN? =)

    40 classes x 12 abilities each (at least) = 480 abilities. 

    4 to swap per class = 160 to some what freely play with.

    X number of items and achievements that can alter abilities in multiple ways.

    They will be adding classes, items, achievements in as time goes on, increasing these numbers.

    Add all this up and you have endless possibilities to build a character.

    While I had no trouble with GW2's limitations as I played a lot in the arena with multiple classes/builds, I do see the limitations. Especially when every single class had the same basic outline with varying degrees of useful builds within each.

    EQN takes the limited skill bar (which has been around since the start, 8 in EQ) tosses in a few more slots but then allows quite a lot of customization. Not total freedom like some games, but they keep the some what traditional and iconic class designs/roles going but allowing more options.

    I'm sure there will be min/max "best" builds for particular things, but there is a huge amount of experimentation room for players. Don't like the basic Warrior? Add in other class skills or find gear/achievements that change the base enough that it fits better. Better still, play another "Warrior" type class that is completely different.

    I'll admit, EQN has a lot of things going on that people might not like, but the class system seems pretty nice compared to most. Trying to hold on to the "old school" iconic classes, while allowing for more player choice. Even with the little shown so far, it comes across as being more entertaining and complex then EQ, EQ2, WoW, GW2, etc. EQN shouldn't be lacking variety at all.

    Where did you get 12 buttons? That is a new one to me as well.. 12?  One gent mentioned that the new 4 may only be consumables like potions, drink, food.. etc etc..  Big whoop if it is.. It's not like you can chain chug health potions as a form of complete heals.. lol 

    4 weapon + 4 secondary = 8 Buttons Yep, and 90% of the combat will be based on the 4 weapon skills like GW2.. Don't get me wrong, I actually like GW2's  5+5 set up..  I'm just not a fan of the second five (6,7,8,9,0) buttons.. I would rather of seen those buttons be more class defining skills like 5 minute snares, or charm target, feign death.. etc etc..

    I think the class system has some potential, but it's not really classes, they would have been better named something else. 4 buttons is not a class to me. I don't care what game had 5 or 8 buttons or 2, that shit sucks, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to have a tiny few buttons. True.. they really aren't classes, they are more just skill packets, and window dressing of the same skill just dressed differently.. 

    Although if the EQN combat is framed from the Landmark combat, hitting those extra 6 buttons will feel like a cornucopia of choices, which makes me wonder why they can't just allow the extra buttons?

    I imagine the reason is that having 16 buttons would break their system, and in PvP/PvE the 16 button guy would destroy the 8 button Console pounder. SO that cuts off a revenue stream and is verboten. If they have separate servers for PS4 and PC, then I guess it just means they thought their idea was milk from the golden calf, and drank the groupthink juice like when they decided that Little Mermaid characters would be cool as all get out.

    If they were going for an essentially de-classed game, then they have considered the balancing issue, and I imagine they did something like GW2, and made the balance sheet end up as square as they could, which essentially just means you get 8 animations for the same power.

    Speaking of those animations, that seems like another restrictor they built in, as each weapon supposedly has different animations based on the class of the guy who holds it. So adding combinations requires animation work, so that is probably something you can forget ever happening. When you are Warrior primary and hold a spear, you get those animations because that Warrior/Spear/1 action is hard locked. You can change out 5678 buttons, but the weapon sets are fixed, so I'm not falling for the "classes built from scratch" pitch. You get Warrior Spear with what is essentially a tree for 5678 but locked to warrior prefix (Movement,Offense, Offense, Defense, etc.).

         The only reason they have as many classes as they promote, or skills, or whatever they are calling it.. Is because they have relabeled and redressed the same combat numbers in different clothes.. I'm flabergassed how so many can hype and get excited with so little intel and misleading info.. When it comes to combat there are ONLY SO MANY WAYS to describe an action..  Such as:

    1. Single target DD (direct damage)
    2. AOE  DD
    3. Single target DoT (damage over time)
    4. AOE  DoT
         Now there are two ways to do AOE damage.. You can make it an area freely placed by the player, or make it damage surrounding your target..  So I guess technically you have 6 total ways damaging a target.. There aren't dozens or hundreds of damage skills as some are trying to proclaim or hint to.  What EQN is doing is trying to sell that  a Shadow Priest using shadow damage (50 points) is different then a Fire Priest using fire damage (50 points)..  Does it really matter?  50 points of damage is 50 points.. Dead is dead, does it matter how you died.. lol    Same as with the animation as you described..  I"m sure weapon buttons 1-4 will be the focus of button mashing in combat, and those are NOT interchanable between classes..  Warrior spear set up will never change.. The only exception are the secondary skills like movement..  As if "blink" is any different then "dash".. Same skill, just different animation..
     
         I have yet to see ONE FULL class set up of skills and abilities yet..  I wonder why?   I hear endless talk and hype, but absolutely nothing to sink my teeth into..  Warrior is one of the starting classes, so obviously they have it complete.. I would like to see the 4 weapon skills both in animation and FULL discription... Then I want to hear in detail what their 4 class skills are..  I don't think telling us and showing us a FULL class disclosure of a starting character is going to break the bank.. 
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Each class will have two weapon sets. 2x4=8 + 4 secondary abilities from your pool of available classes. Granted, I don't believe there has been word on whether "hot swapping" will be an option but I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

    Jeff Butler said at SoE Live '13 that they want the players to have their eyes on the action, not the hotbars. This is due to it not being tab target but aimed reticle. As others have stated if you take the 8/12 abilities and add item abilities the free movement nature should be more than engaging enough.

    That said, being console designed doesn't mean it cannot have a lot of abilities. FFXIV has a regular amount of hotbars and pulls it off just fine for a gamepad.
  • SephastusSephastus Member UncommonPosts: 455

    Amount of buttons has nothing to do with the fun of a game.

     

    Go look up Japan's most popular game at the moment: Monster Hunter

     

    Based on that alone, knowing that we will have more weapon classes than that game AND that you could have classes that will add more combination possibilities makes it so that at least on paper, this is going to be awesome.

     

    However... I have played Landmark... and while it is a great builder, if the world is going to be like that... it is going to feel... lacking. Can't put my finger on it... but it is like walking through toyland while being an adult. At one point all those action figures could have held some interest... but tastes are just in a different direction.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    Where did you get 12 buttons?

    4 weapon + 4 secondary = 8 Buttons

    2 Weapon Sets with 4 abilities each, can be swapped during combat. GW2 classes (generally speaking) had 10 visible with 5 on 2nd weapon = 15 total. Same concept.

    I think the class system has some potential, but it's not really classes, they would have been better named something else. 4 buttons is not a class to me. I don't care what game had 5 or 8 buttons or 2, that shit sucks, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to have a tiny few buttons.

    I agree that they should of took the time to think up something else to call it because I'm still missing how they work in one character being able to be 40 "classes" doesn't make much sense from a roleplay/lore stand point. They are basically basic builds to work with and the build options are pretty endless. 12 is fairly small, but I've gone back and looked at previous games and I never really used too high a number even with a lot available. Between the long duration buffs, fluff, and redundant skills, most games could easily get by with fewer. Just find it odd that so many praise early EQ, yet seem to forget it only had 8 skills, some classes were even less (melee) that were actually needed each fight.

    I imagine the reason is that having 16 buttons would break their system, and in PvP/PvE the 16 button guy would destroy the 8 button Console pounder. SO that cuts off a revenue stream and is verboten. If they have separate servers for PS4 and PC, then I guess it just means they thought their idea was milk from the golden calf, and drank the groupthink juice like when they decided that Little Mermaid characters would be cool as all get out.

    I'm highly doubting we'll see EQN on PS4 any time soon and even if it makes it, not shared servers. Even still, GW2, WoW and especially FFXIV ARR are all playable with a controller. While it makes sense that controller = design for fewer skills, it doesn't really have to. I think FF has 32 skills possible through creative key mapping.

    So adding combinations requires animation work, so that is probably something you can forget ever happening. When you are Warrior primary and hold a spear, you get those animations because that Warrior/Spear/1 action is hard locked. You can change out 5678 buttons, but the weapon sets are fixed, so I'm not falling for the "classes built from scratch" pitch. You get Warrior Spear with what is essentially a tree for 5678 but locked to warrior prefix (Movement,Offense, Offense, Defense, etc.).

    I'm curious how animations will work with skills from other classes. I'm guessing either the 8 skills tied to weapons and unswappable will be more of the unique animations/stances, while 4 secondary skills will be more generic animations so they work with all races/classes. They did say there would be skill "combos" but what that means is unknown.

     

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Where did you get 12 buttons?

    4 + 4 + 4 = 12

    Weapon Sets can be swapped in combat, or at least they said so previously.

    4 weapon + 4 secondary = 8 Buttons Yep, and 90% of the combat will be based on the 4 weapon skills like GW2.. Don't get me wrong, I actually like GW2's  5+5 set up..  I'm just not a fan of the second five (6,7,8,9,0) buttons.. I would rather of seen those buttons be more class defining skills like 5 minute snares, or charm target, feign death.. etc etc..

    Like GW2, EQN would have 8 instead of 10 active weapon skills. I would like to see the 4 secondary (swap slots) be useful skills and not just total fluff or OP must haves. GW2 had some decent ones, but a lot of them were pretty useless.

    I think the class system has some potential, but it's not really classes, they would have been better named something else. 4 buttons is not a class to me. I don't care what game had 5 or 8 buttons or 2, that shit sucks, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to have a tiny few buttons. True.. they really aren't classes, they are more just skill packets, and window dressing of the same skill just dressed differently.. 

    I'll agree with the skill packet ("Class" is a poor choice by them), but there is no evidence of the "same skill just dressed differently" yet. Not that it couldn't be the case. While I doubt each class will be 95% unique like EQ, no reason each will be a carbon copy either.

         The only reason they have as many classes as they promote, or skills, or whatever they are calling it.. Is because they have relabeled and redressed the same combat numbers in different clothes.. I'm flabergassed how so many can hype and get excited with so little intel and misleading info..

    (Same way you can be so critical?)

    When it comes to combat there are ONLY SO MANY WAYS to describe an action..  Such as:

    1. Single target DD (direct damage)
    2. AOE  DD
    3. Single target DoT (damage over time)
    4. AOE  DoT
         Now there are two ways to do AOE damage.. You can make it an area freely placed by the player, or make it damage surrounding your target..  So I guess technically you have 6 total ways damaging a target.. There aren't dozens or hundreds of damage skills as some are trying to proclaim or hint to.  What EQN is doing is trying to sell that  a Shadow Priest using shadow damage (50 points) is different then a Fire Priest using fire damage (50 points)..  Does it really matter?  50 points of damage is 50 points.. Dead is dead, does it matter how you died.. lol    Same as with the animation as you described..  I"m sure weapon buttons 1-4 will be the focus of button mashing in combat, and those are NOT interchanable between classes..  Warrior spear set up will never change.. The only exception are the secondary skills like movement..  As if "blink" is any different then "dash".. Same skill, just different animation..
    So you don't like the class/skill set up in any mmorpg or game? You've broke it down to the most basic level so obviously it is "the same" for each class. Regardless if you are comparing a Warrior to a Cleric, then you just have DD dmg vs DD heal or an EQ class to GW2, they all function like you describe.
     
    I've never seen a game not set up this way. What usually differentiates classes and basic skills is the secondary attributes. DD + Snare, DD + Dot, DD + Debuff, DD + Self Heal, etc. Not to mention Debuffs, Buffs, Heals, CC, Utility themselves, minus any damage.
     
    Since EQN won't be a vertical power stacking game, it appears they are heavily focusing on the secondary type parts of skills. Actually seems like they aren't focusing on DD (DPS) from what they've shown. They could have 1 skill per weapon that actually does damage and have 10 skills that impact it along with combat overall. DD (DPS) focus is the laziest form of design to me. Passive and less PEW PEW PEW skills seem to be important looking at gear/achievements.
     
    Regardless if it is 4, 8, 50. In any given situation it usually comes down to "button mashing". Pushing 1,2,3,4 x 5 or mashing 1-20 x 1 isn't very different "skill" wise. Again, never played a game where I would stop and go "hmmm do I hit 1 or do I hit 7?" Some how hitting 1-4 multiple times vs 1-50 makes one twitchy as well, confuses me how though. As we only have so many fingers/buttons it just goes from 1-5 to shift + 1-5, Alt + 1-5.
     
    Honestly confused what you would rather see that would fit remotely into what they are going for or any game that doesn't function like this.
     
    Did you watch this? If so, we must be seeing it completely differently. 
     
     
    Look at the skills, gear, achievements, and how they can be used to build upon a basic "class" setup. 8 skills aren't going anywhere, but between the 4 secondary, X number of items, and X number of achievements (assuming that is as creative as they've got and nothing else will impact a player), still leaves a lot of ways to go.
     

    Pretend with me:

    DD + Dot (Fire Type) + item that makes all Fire skills heal for Dot amount + achievement that doubles Fire skill duration. Just turned a DD + Dot into a pretty decent self heal. Then again it is JUST a DD skill...

         I have yet to see ONE FULL class set up of skills and abilities yet..  I wonder why?   I hear endless talk and hype, but absolutely nothing to sink my teeth into..  Warrior is one of the starting classes, so obviously they have it complete.. I would like to see the 4 weapon skills both in animation and FULL discription... Then I want to hear in detail what their 4 class skills are..  I don't think telling us and showing us a FULL class disclosure of a starting character is going to break the bank.. 

    They have no reason to. What AAA games have you seen that give out full class details pre-Alpha/Alpha or whatever we want to call EQN's current state? They have nothing to prove to you or entice you into playing/paying for something not available any time soon. Heck, they might not have one class complete yet. No clue how it works, but I'm betting if they get to class 23 and see it uses X skill type better, they might go back to class 15 and change it a bit. Why would they give any full even "work in progress" class fully? Only leaves room for more complaining and we have no context how any of it would work regardless.

    It is still a fantasy mmorpg, no matter the number of skills on a bar, total classes, or whatever else. Shouldn't be that hard to figure out what is going on. Spend a couple minutes playing EQ, WoW, GW2, Tera, SMITE and use some imagination. They aren't reinventing the wheel.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Each class will have two weapon sets. 2x4=8 + 4 secondary abilities from your pool of available classes. Granted, I don't believe there has been word on whether "hot swapping" will be an option but I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

    https://twitter.com/TaliskerDev/statuses/366395799065739265

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,985

    However many skills you have active, make them all useful--and not just once in a blue moon.  Having 50 skill buttons on the screen at once, four of which account for 90%+ of your skill usage, is stupid.

    The PS3 was very limited on memory capacity.  The PS4 is not comparably constrained.

  • xoonerxooner Member Posts: 5

    EQN is obviously being designed with consoles in mind the same way ESO was designed for console release.  Don't buy the limited quickbar nonsense it's better for game play, it's cause controllers have limited buttons!

     

     

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    Originally posted by xooner

    EQN is obviously being designed with consoles in mind the same way ESO was designed for console release.  Don't buy the limited quickbar nonsense it's better for game play, it's cause controllers have limited buttons!

     

     

    Gamepad didnt prevent square enix from being able to have 50+ active skills on hot bar in Final Fantasy XIV and traditional mmo combat.  I personally use up to 32+ active skills on the gamepad in FFXIV and I PvP in it too.

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