Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen

Tyggs

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by jdnewell

Good luck to you and your team!

I will be keeping an eye on the game development and hope it gets released. I personally do not do kickstarters but wish you guys the best. 

Edit: i wouldnt get too bent out of shape about comments on these forums. Sticks and stones and all that

Sorry if I sound bent out of shape -- I'm actually in a fantastic mood because of how well the game is coming along.

That said, sometimes a straw breaks the camels back.  This person was posting misinformation over and over again and occasionally I've got to call it out for what it is:  inaccurate at best.

A lot of us still have faith, Brad.

 

Just..... give us a badass enchanter!

flizzer

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by Dakeru

It's funny that you say it's ok for him to take the money that was meant to build the game but at the same time there is no need to pay the devs. You know.. the guys actually building the game?

 

Brad is a criminal and I wish mmorpg.com would finally take a stance and forbid any support for his criminal activities on this site.

These lies really need to stop.  I paid myself and my team.  We worked from Sept. 2013 to April of 2014, when there was a dispute over how much I was paid.  You can debate all you want about whether I was paid 'too much' for that period, but this 'the team wasn't paid anything' is misinformation at best.   Where do you think the rest of the money raised went?  98% to the team and probably 2% to software licenses, etc.  

The majority of the team left over this dispute.  They left with the majority of the crowdfunded money.  I am still here, working 8-12 hour days with my new team, and have made less then $1k. since April.  I have sold a LOT of personal items and am currently selling a rental property so I can pay the bills while I and the new team poor our hears and souls into the game.

So that's now over a year I've worked on this project, and I'm a criminal because I've been paid ~$46k? And the rest of the ~$147k that went to the old team -- they haven't touched the game since April.  What should get your more upset?  Who walked with their portion of the money and who stayed?

All I know is that I've learned a lot about team building, working with volunteer teams, and working remotely.  The result is this new team is not only very talented but incredibly committed and working their butts off.  When crowdfunding does come in, I give it to the team members who work crazy hours and who don't have day jobs.  And of course, there's software and hardware that needs to be paid for.

But is there proof or is the game just vaporware?

We try to release a movie every 1-2 months showing measurable forward progress, with screenshots more frequently.  Take a look at the August movie and compare it to the one we just released.  This game is being made and it's coming together relatively quickly.  Do we still need more funding than crowdsourcing to finish it?  Preferably yes.  And we hope that these movies mitigate risk for the potential investor and that funding will come 'soon'.  In the meantime, we continue to move this game forward and at the same time keep the community informed with our progress via these movies and screenshots.

Anyway, I don't usually participate in these threads, but the 'criminal' this, and the 'team didn't get paid' that just has to be addressed.  And so I'm addressing it:  it's a bunch of crap.  That said, despite the misinformation and negativity, the team and I are tenacious.  I'm not going anywhere, that's for sure.  Come hell or high water, Pantheon will be finished.

-Brad

"I don't usually participate in these threads".   I actually would love to see you participate more actually. It is great getting a response and understanding what is happening.  

 

Regardless, I hope you do finish this game because I would love to play it.   Good luck!

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Kyleran

Originally posted by blueturtle13

Originally posted by Kyleran
You can't make a MMORPG for 600k....so don't get your hopes up.

    Bioware and Lucas Arts proved you can't make one for $150-$200 million. ESO cost $200 million so that does not really matter.

    One of the reasons I posted this was in the hopes of people seeing it and perhaps supporting a game like this. I just discovered it through Reddit of all places. lol Just trying to bring attention to a game that needs those who 'say' they want a game like this to step up and support it. I just did.

C'mon now, let's not be disingenuous,  both SWTOR and ESO are well developed MMO's, even if you (or I for that matter) don't like them.

But Brad's response clearly shows he's not trying to make a MMORPG on a shoestring, he's well aware he'll need some active (and much larger) scale funding to complete the final game.

Many of us here are well aware of this effort, and have mixed feelings on it.  For me, just a matter that EQ1 and Vanguard aren't my style of games, I prefer them more centered around PVP and territory control.

However I know there are many who would like to see this style of game play come back, so good luck in getting this launched and completed one day, never hurts to have more choices in the very bland MMO world.

 

Poslo

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by Dakeru

It's funny that you say it's ok for him to take the money that was meant to build the game but at the same time there is no need to pay the devs. You know.. the guys actually building the game?

 

Brad is a criminal and I wish mmorpg.com would finally take a stance and forbid any support for his criminal activities on this site.

These lies really need to stop.  I paid myself and my team.  We worked from Sept. 2013 to April of 2014, when there was a dispute over how much I was paid.  You can debate all you want about whether I was paid 'too much' for that period, but this 'the team wasn't paid anything' is misinformation at best.   Where do you think the rest of the money raised went?  98% to the team and probably 2% to software licenses, etc.  

The majority of the team left over this dispute.  They left with the majority of the crowdfunded money.  I am still here, working 8-12 hour days with my new team, and have made less then $1k. since April.  I have sold a LOT of personal items and am currently selling a rental property so I can pay the bills while I and the new team poor our hears and souls into the game.

So that's now over a year I've worked on this project, and I'm a criminal because I've been paid ~$46k? And the rest of the ~$147k that went to the old team -- they haven't touched the game since April.  What should get your more upset?  Who walked with their portion of the money and who stayed?

All I know is that I've learned a lot about team building, working with volunteer teams, and working remotely.  The result is this new team is not only very talented but incredibly committed and working their butts off.  When crowdfunding does come in, I give it to the team members who work crazy hours and who don't have day jobs.  And of course, there's software and hardware that needs to be paid for.

But is there proof or is the game just vaporware?

We try to release a movie every 1-2 months showing measurable forward progress, with screenshots more frequently.  Take a look at the August movie and compare it to the one we just released.  This game is being made and it's coming together relatively quickly.  Do we still need more funding than crowdsourcing to finish it?  Preferably yes.  And we hope that these movies mitigate risk for the potential investor and that funding will come 'soon'.  In the meantime, we continue to move this game forward and at the same time keep the community informed with our progress via these movies and screenshots.

Anyway, I don't usually participate in these threads, but the 'criminal' this, and the 'team didn't get paid' that just has to be addressed.  And so I'm addressing it:  it's a bunch of crap.  That said, despite the misinformation and negativity, the team and I are tenacious.  I'm not going anywhere, that's for sure.  Come hell or high water, Pantheon will be finished.

-Brad

 

Finally,  Brad,  you've had your say!  I'm certain you had to be safe (legally) and you wanted to be understanding to the old team.  Still,  the people who ignore the facts, and statements from some of the old team, showing they were paid for their work,  were flooding the gaming internets with incomplete ( at best ;D ) truths.   Good for you, setting the record straight!

 

Lutorin

I am one of those 1999 EQ players and one of those who gave some money for Pantheon. A long time lurker on this site.

Pantheon is meant to be a niche game and I sit square in the middle of the target. Along with some 10 000 people who played and play Project 99. and others who play nothing because the SWTORs, WoWs, Archeages and TESOs are just boring after 5 days of solo play.

 

What we want is a difficult and hard game. A game where when you die it really means something. A game where you achieve little or nothing alone. A game where for high rewards there are very high risks. A game that doesn't shring a huge world to a carricature with insta ports everywhere. A game where one has to be patient, skilled and a team player to achieve something.

There is no single game on the market that would give us that. Brad is the first who tries and I respect it.

More. I am saying myself that if for some reason Panthon is not released, I am over with MMORPGs in general because I have not found a single one in the past 6 years that would keep me interested for more than a few months (perhaps an exception for Lotro).

 

I fully realize that the majority prefers their games easy, instanced and soloable for most of the content. This kind wouldn't like EQ and won't like Pantheon.

But this doesn't matter. It is not being done for them.

 

So if there are readers who feel like me, don't hesitate and inform yourself about Pantheon. I think that Brad and his team are doing an exceptionnal job and am reasonably optimistic that this game will advance according to schedule as expected.

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Niklacz

---

Originally posted by blueturtle13
Also Brad is not the reason Vanguard did not perform at the financial level that was expected. I loved the game and thousands apon thousands did as well. The ISSUE which Brad admits was that the technology required to run that game in 2007 was too ahead of it's time. So it lost a ton of money. He was screwed over by Sony, Screwed over making Vanguard. So THEN he goes and creates Rift which is still a top performer today on the market.

---

I'm not gonna lie, Rifts was one hell of a game, so i'd like to take the occasion to say Thanks a ton to Aradune McQuaid, i enjoyed that one a lot, might reactivate my account if that somehow contributes to the support of Pantheon.

SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

Aradune

Originally posted by Niklacz

 

---

Originally posted by blueturtle13
Also Brad is not the reason Vanguard did not perform at the financial level that was expected. I loved the game and thousands apon thousands did as well. The ISSUE which Brad admits was that the technology required to run that game in 2007 was too ahead of it's time. So it lost a ton of money. He was screwed over by Sony, Screwed over making Vanguard. So THEN he goes and creates Rift which is still a top performer today on the market.

---

 

I'm not gonna lie, Rifts was one hell of a game, so i'd like to take the occasion to say Thanks a ton to Aradune McQuaid, i enjoyed that one a lot, might reactivate my account if that somehow contributes to the support of Pantheon.

Actually I did not work on Rifts, though I have good friends that did.  I was the producer on EQ 1 & Vanguard, and was also involved managing EQoA, the first several EQ 1 expansions, SW:G early on, etc.

Aradune

Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

Blinkenn

SuperNick

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

Being in the millions is a different story - I assumed the budget (from the Kickstarter) sat at around $0.5m, which was my point posed as such.

I think passion and commitment can overcome small budgets - it just has to be the driving force behind any project. I also think minimum technology requirements are a big thing now though and a game like Camelot Unchained (which basically looks like the DAOC engine) is gonna have a really hard time.

If you look at ArcheAge (a game with a high budget but no real soul) you can tell it went the complete opposite direction. It's a game and company that is completely devoid of passion and thought they could make a pretty ROI (well, maybe they did..) and as such the community response reflects this lack of passion in the project.

I wish you the best of luck though. As someone who has been in the industry a long time (Asheron's Call), it saddens me to see the market so stagnant and my optimism always hopes for someone breaking the coma the market seems to be in.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

given inflation that's "about right".

I'm sure there are other factors such as better tools in order to do what one did in 1999 faster or better. Then again, are salaries and benefits in line with inflation? Of course if you are paying contractors then you don't have to worry about benefits unless there is some law that compels a business to pay benefits to a contractor after a certain amount of time employed.

The real challenge is budgeting everything and then staying on target with your goals and not going over budget.

Aradune

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

given inflation that's "about right".

I'm sure there are other factors such as better tools in order to do what one did in 1999 faster or better. Then again, are salaries and benefits in line with inflation? Of course if you are paying contractors then you don't have to worry about benefits unless there is some law that compels a business to pay benefits to a contractor after a certain amount of time employed.

The real challenge is budgeting everything and then staying on target with your goals and not going over budget.

Yes, I should have mentioned the tech.  For EQ we had a primitive (by today's standards) 3D display engine and a lot of work on it (we had the source code) had to be done.  With Pantheon we are using Unity, which is more than a display engine, but a game engine.  That, plus the Unity store, *really* accelerates development in ways even 5-10 years ago would have been impossible.

Gestankfaust

Welcome to MMORPG.com Brad. Where "Swimming withe the sharks" is the sport of the day. Doesn't matter the truth, only interested in the blood in the water.

 

I'll still keep up with Pantheon. You guys keep on truckin!

Niklacz

---

Originally posted by Aradune

---

Originally posted by Niklacz

---

Originally posted by blueturtle13 Also Brad is not the reason Vanguard did not perform at the financial level that was expected. I loved the game and thousands apon thousands did as well. The ISSUE which Brad admits was that the technology required to run that game in 2007 was too ahead of it's time. So it lost a ton of money. He was screwed over by Sony, Screwed over making Vanguard. So THEN he goes and creates Rift which is still a top performer today on the market.

---

I'm not gonna lie, Rifts was one hell of a game, so i'd like to take the occasion to say Thanks a ton to Aradune McQuaid, i enjoyed that one a lot, might reactivate my account if that somehow contributes to the support of Pantheon.

---

Actually I did not work on Rifts, though I have good friends that did. I was the producer on EQ 1 & Vanguard, and was also involved managing EQoA, the first several EQ 1 expansions, SW:G early on, etc.

---

Ah ok, well i never played EQ and Vanguard didn't run on my computer back then because the graphics were too demanding, but i assume by 'friends' you are referring to people on your team, working on your current game right now?
That's pretty good news to me, i remember when Rift came out it ran flawlessly right out of the box, so if you guys manage to deliver that same level of polish as you did back then in Rift, that would be a pretty good start for your product.

As for SW:G, since you created the Star Wars games, you should have plenty of contacts in the industry, wouldn't it be possible to address people like Chris Roberts for helping you with some sort of cross-promotion? I'm sure your games had quite a bit of influence and inspiration on him, and that guy's game made 58 million dollars, 2 million of which he made in like a single week with croundfounding alone.

SuperNick

Originally posted by Aradune

Yes, I should have mentioned the tech.  For EQ we had a primitive (by today's standards) 3D display engine and a lot of work on it (we had the source code) had to be done.  With Pantheon we are using Unity, which is more than a display engine, but a game engine.  That, plus the Unity store, *really* accelerates development in ways even 5-10 years ago would have been impossible.

I think that's a good call - as someone who works in the web industry, I cringe when I hear small companies attempting to buy in or create a bespoke content management system. I'd say that philosophy is no different in the games industry.

Something I wrestle with these days is why do so many companies rush to make new IPs and games? The MMO industry has got to be one of the very few industries that has never attempted a remake of a game.

If Batman can get remade successfully every 10 years, why can't something like Ultima Online, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Vanguard or Star Wars Galaxies see a successful remake? Especially since in a way the technology is what has hindered so many great ideas in the past. (The ideas were there, the tech wasn't so much.)

Sure, you'd have to modernize them but that's what a remake is. Taking the existing foundation and improving it. It would of course be a big undertaking and not cheap but it certainly puts you a few steps further than nothing-to-something with a brand new game.

It's just a bit strange to me really.. companies have these fantastic IPs and choose to keep making new ones. Even if they didn't remake say Ultima Online or Asheron's Call, why isn't the IP getting used for a new game?

Cendharia

Originally posted by blueturtle13

 

    I just saw their updated October video released and wondered how many of you have info on it? I know Brad McQuaid is the lead developer so to me that is a good thing. The Kickstarter was not a success but after that ended fans still donated an additional

$162,000 even after the KS fail. Looks old school but more modern and has a great old school vibe! Anyone in the know?

link to site: Admin if this needs removed please do so! Sorry if so!

 

                                 https://www.pantheonrotf.com/

 I was happy with the latest video,  I am taking a wait and see approach, after all that has gone on.   The video was a definite step forward,  lets see if they follow through. 

Cendharia

Originally posted by blueturtle13

Originally posted by Kyleran
You can't make a MMORPG for 600k....so don't get your hopes up.

    Bioware and Lucas Arts proved you can't make one for $150-$200 million. ESO cost $200 million so that does not really matter.

    One of the reasons I posted this was in the hopes of people seeing it and perhaps supporting a game like this. I just discovered it through Reddit of all places. lol Just trying to bring attention to a game that needs those who 'say' they want a game like this to step up and support it. I just did.

 

Indeed ..throwing 300 million or whatever that price tag was for SWTOR, doesn't guarantee that your game will be popular, and that people will play it for longer than a month running.   My whole guild left at the end of the first month.   And that's not the only recent game I have seen with that fate.    It needs to have that immersive hook that keeps people striving for that next piece of armor or that next level. or whatever it is that attracts gamers and keeps them playing.   Community is another asset.   Good community keeps people around.     Good community should be fostered and nurtured.  It's to the game company's advantage.   Everything else is icing on the cake. 

Cendharia

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by Vonatar

The Pantheon Kickstarter failed, right? So unless Kickstarter has changed the rules that means the game didn't see a dime of the $460,000 pledged, since the goal was $800,000 iirc.

Therefore not sure why people are saying Pantheon has raised funding of over $600,000. There's $162,265 in post-Kickstarter pledges on the site.

It's our bad for not just taking down that 'total' from the website.  The reality is ~$147k was raised post-kickstarter, not $162.  In fact, I'm just going to have them yank that from the site today.  It's misleading, at best.

-Brad

 Good Luck,  Aradune,  I'll be keeping an eye on this project.

SuperNick

SWTOR is doing excellent now. From my understanding it even sits in the top 3 list of both players and revenue. They have regular content, expansions and continue to improve the game.. which is the entire reason it IS doing well now. Sure, it had a shaky start but sometimes maturing your game means everything where so many give up.

Now, compare that to Guild Wars 2.. they basically don't seem to care. No expansions, no new zones, no new classes and VERY questionable "content" updates (usually consist of some boring 2 hour long story quest) that cost real money. The number of players and popularity reflect that in spades.

I think so many companies want to be WoW in their first year and when that doesn't happen, they give up and move onto the next game. So many people don't even realise how low-key WoW was for the first 2 years.. hell it didn't even get EU servers or raids until like 6 months in. It was a buggy, broken content-less mess on the whole. Entire class specs were broken, entire zones missing.

..but they kept at it. They patched hard, sometimes you'd see 200mb patches DAILY and became what they are today.

So many companies fail to realize the REAL development begins at launch, not champagne and holidays while you watch dollars fly in.

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kjempff

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

Without knowing much about developing a full mmorpg, my gut feeling tells me that you can go a long way if you spend resources in the right places. Clever game mechanics and core gameplay should be able to carry a game like Pantheon, and if those things work well then the game may not need 50m worth of the latest gfx effects, as long as it looks well enough.. Not to mention atmosphere and ambient sound can really make imagination take you a long way.

Not following the themepark recipe with the need to create stories and cutscenes for everything, I am guessing could be a huge advantage and resource saving. Instead focusing on good long term game mechanics and enough content to allow players to use it.

Atleast it seem like 100-200m budgets doesn't ensure success, eso, wildstar etc. The right game for the target audience - If there is players for Pantheon is hard to judge for an old eq fart.. But damnit, quality must be able to attract new players.. Hoppers will land for awhile and if intrigued they will come back.

The mmorpg genre could really use a good pve game with oldschool virtues and modern mechanics. Good luck on the Pantheon project.

I hope future threads here will be about the game, and not derailed by unsupported claims and half truths about Brad. When you work with people there will be disputes, mistakes, disagreements, and some will leave feeling they didn't get what they should..but remember there are always two sides to a story, and often there is not even right and wrong, things just happen and especially on a creative game dev team.

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