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Have they updated the character looks?

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,053
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by tawess
    The characters will always be stylized to some degree. It is the artstyle they choose and they have explained several times why they did it...

     


    Yes we know their explanation, "They age better." Does anyone really believe that? I think we all know the real reason SOE chose this look, and it's the same reason they chose arcade style combat.

    They do age better.

    There's nothing to believe it's true.

    Take something that is aiming to look "realistic" and then give it a few years with advances in technology and it will look dated.

    Take something that is stylized and it will require less updating as it  will never require looking anything other than stylized for quite some time.

    They age better because they start at "Suck" and remain that way. They don't ever reach anything appealing so the bar is set low.

    So you design your characters to last eons only to turn a ton of people off instantly. I'm sure at no time in the life of this game could you update the graphics, oh wait you could!

     

    Here is bugs bunny:

    Other than making him have finer textures or making him more "3d" he will never need to look more "realistic". I would even say that if given greater fidelity he will only look weirder. There is no "more realistic" because he is as he is. He is this way and can be this way in 20 years.

    Here is diablo:

    It certainly is more realistic than:

    Though in truth one can't say that "Adventure" was going for realistic so much as "we need to depict a dragon this is the best way to do it" However, there is much greater fidelity and more realism. Heck, when I saw Diablo II  I marvelled at how realistic the metal seemed with the "light reflecting off it".

    Now you look at:'

    and that is much more realistic than Diablo or Adventure.

    Show someone a bugs bunny game and they arent' going to mind the look of bugs bunny because he is what he is. Show someone a duck looking dragon made out of blocks and there will be a different story.

    You not liking the style they choose is another matter as that is subjective. There are people who don't think they "start at suck".




  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    They age better because they start at "Suck" and remain that way. They don't ever reach anything appealing so the bar is set low.

    So you design your characters to last eons only to turn a ton of people off instantly. I'm sure at no time in the life of this game could you update the graphics, oh wait you could!

    Are these the same ton of people that play EQ, EQ2, AC, DAoC, WAR, WoW, Wildstar, every MOBA, TF2, yadda yadda? Because there sure seems to be a few people that either don't mind or actually enjoy the more stylized art. Not to mention all the folks that love Disney, Pixar, Dreamworks, Anime, cartoons in general...

    Looking at the genre as a whole, pretty much seems to be either some sort of stylized "cartoony" look which tends to age better and be up to what EQN's tech, then there are the oh so serious games like AoC, Mortal Online, Darkfall that looked.....and then Eastern games with various degrees of "realism" even though to me it is just stylized with Eastern influences (FF games, GW2, ArcheAge, Wushu, Bless, Black Desert, etc).

    If you go by the numbers and longevity, you'll see one thing in common with the art.

    I highly doubt when Valve made TF2, Riot made LoL, or Blizzard makes a game they go "Alright lets make a super cartoony game and go after all those 8 year olds that make up our core demographic."

    Yes EQN could look more like EQ's SOL models or a bit more gritty, but they've gone with a more flashy look because that is what sells and when compared to the competition, it does not "suck". Models hopefully still being polished, but quality wise, they are pretty nice compared to say WoW's updated models, Wildstar, SMITE, etc.

    I thought EQ's graphics were fairly silly when I first started and never got the impression it was a dark, gritty, mature, realistic game through the look or gameplay. EQ2 seemed to try to do this a bit and went with the weird dead eye plastic doll rendered look and I think suffered because of it.

    We all like what we like, but I'm betting that EQN isn't going to do poorly because of the art style, plenty of other areas where they can screw up though =)

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613
    Originally posted by Alders

    While i understand the criticism, i don't get them at all.  EQ1 and EQ2 character models are absolutely atrocious.  I'm sorry but they are.  While i would have preferred a style more similar to ArcheAge, the new models are far better looking than anything SoE has ever done.

    I also assumed by now that EQ vets would understand that EQNext is not targeted at them.  It's a harsh reality to come to grips with and it's also a huge gamble on SoE's part, but it's the direction i feel they're going.

    I don't agree with the direction personally but it is what it is.

    Sadly this seems to be true.

    Apart from some EQ peeps that insist on EQN being the holy grail still... it is not targeted at EQ players. Pantheon or maybe Project: Gorgon are targeted at EQ players. Sadly both lack proper funding and SoE is doing an action cartoon "next"... /sadface

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


      

     


     

     

     

    You have proved that cartoons look like cartoons perpetually. However, technology advances, and so EQ characters that were fine in 2000 are not so fine in 2014. But according to you, if they would have made bugs bunny, then there would be no reason to update EQ.

    The problem is that the capability is available to do graphics that look more realistic, are tuned to current average machines, and could be updated later if your game is successful. I'm talking like 10 years later, because no one is going to stop playing your game because your realistic characters are not looking as nice as cartoons.

    And don't give me that Valley bullshit. That was not an experiment meant to gauge what people would like to have in video games.

     

    Finally, this is a financial excuse that benefits only the Devs that you are giving for features in an entertainment product. It's a retarded move to skimp on this part of the game, and therefore alienate customers.

     

    Then again maybe it's not so dumb, as there are amateur enablers out there willing to champion this fucking garbage.

     

     

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    They age better because they start at "Suck" and remain that way. They don't ever reach anything appealing so the bar is set low.

    So you design your characters to last eons only to turn a ton of people off instantly. I'm sure at no time in the life of this game could you update the graphics, oh wait you could!

    Are these the same ton of people that play EQ, EQ2, AC, DAoC, WAR, WoW, Wildstar, every MOBA, TF2, yadda yadda? Because there sure seems to be a few people that either don't mind or actually enjoy the more stylized art. Not to mention all the folks that love Disney, Pixar, Dreamworks, Anime, cartoons in general...

    Looking at the genre as a whole, pretty much seems to be either some sort of stylized "cartoony" look which tends to age better and be up to what EQN's tech, then there are the oh so serious games like AoC, Mortal Online, Darkfall that looked.....and then Eastern games with various degrees of "realism" even though to me it is just stylized with Eastern influences (FF games, GW2, ArcheAge, Wushu, Bless, Black Desert, etc).

    If you go by the numbers and longevity, you'll see one thing in common with the art.

    I highly doubt when Valve made TF2, Riot made LoL, or Blizzard makes a game they go "Alright lets make a super cartoony game and go after all those 8 year olds that make up our core demographic."

    Yes EQN could look more like EQ's SOL models or a bit more gritty, but they've gone with a more flashy look because that is what sells and when compared to the competition, it does not "suck". Models hopefully still being polished, but quality wise, they are pretty nice compared to say WoW's updated models, Wildstar, SMITE, etc.

    I thought EQ's graphics were fairly silly when I first started and never got the impression it was a dark, gritty, mature, realistic game through the look or gameplay. EQ2 seemed to try to do this a bit and went with the weird dead eye plastic doll rendered look and I think suffered because of it.

    We all like what we like, but I'm betting that EQN isn't going to do poorly because of the art style, plenty of other areas where they can screw up though =)

    A landslide starts somewhere, and the discontent with EQNext will begin with people shifting uncomfortably in their seats as they watch the Disney MMO on their monitors. People will also see ads for the game and simply say, "I'll pass." It's started already.

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by Allein

    Could you link to what you find stupid/dopey? I'm not understanding if you mean the art style itself (stylized/cartoony) or the models/animations like how humans walk around or swing a weapon. While everything could use more polish and will since EQN is a long ways off, I find most of the animation to be pretty decent. If you are focusing on the large hands/eyes or something, then I guess I get it as that is simply a subjective aspect. They are going for the whole "heroic" look with some what out of proportion parts working with gear/animations and such.

    It is not the fact that the character models are stylized, I have nothing against stylizes graphics. I wouldn't link it to some specific feature of the models or the animations, although there are some that stand out, like the oversized eyes the emotes, the walk-cycle and the way the characters stand with their chest pushed forward.

    The real problem is how the specific style of the models and the over the top animations come together. It all exactly nails the specific Disney-style.

    This specific style makes the characters just look lame, shallow and schmaltzy. They look as if they would start singing any moment. I just can't relate to these type of characters and they aren't suitable for any type of serious storytelling.

    So if you ask me what I would like to be changed, the answer is, I don't even care as long as the models and character animations diverge from that specific feel. Anything that makes them less look like Disney characters would be ok. They should be stylized but less cartoony, maybe a bit like in GW2 as a general direction. Then they would fit better with the world graphics too. Note that I don't demand super realistic or gritty character models, although a tiny push in that direction would be fine.

     

    I understand that they wanted the characters to be expressive, but I'm sure there can be expressive characters that don't rip off Disney. The way they look I just can't identify with them or even take them serious. They just completely ruin my immersion.

    The worst of all that is that it is all so unnecessary. SOE could have chosen everything they wanted. Almost everything else would have been better. This specific look is a milestone around the neck of EQN and it is alienating a lot of players. 

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    The problem is that the capability is available to do graphics that look more realistic, are tuned to current average machines, and could be updated later if your game is successful. I'm talking like 10 years later, because no one is going to stop playing your game because your realistic characters are not looking as nice as cartoons.

    Factoring in voxels, storybricks, and other machine taxing features? Or they should dump those and go for realistic models instead? Basically go back to either of the other two versions of the game they were working on. There were a couple leaked animated models years back and they were more realistic looking, but weren't that exciting. Maybe they just can't hack it when it comes to realism and had to go the more stylized look?

    Our of curiosity, what would you prefer EQN to look like, compared to? Please don't say Bless/Black Desert.

     

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A landslide starts somewhere, and the discontent with EQNext will begin with people shifting uncomfortably in their seats as they watch the Disney MMO on their monitors. People will also see ads for the game and simply say, "I'll pass." It's started already.

    You seem to have completely ignored my list of popular products that say otherwise. Then again, we do tend to talk as if our opinions = everyone else's, so I get it. What options do those passing have that fit more into what you'd want? The fact that you are here leads me to believe that there isn't much else out there worth your time currently.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Sengi
    Originally posted by Allein

    Could you link to what you find stupid/dopey? I'm not understanding if you mean the art style itself (stylized/cartoony) or the models/animations like how humans walk around or swing a weapon. While everything could use more polish and will since EQN is a long ways off, I find most of the animation to be pretty decent. If you are focusing on the large hands/eyes or something, then I guess I get it as that is simply a subjective aspect. They are going for the whole "heroic" look with some what out of proportion parts working with gear/animations and such.

    It is not the fact that the character models are stylized, I have nothing against stylizes graphics. I wouldn't link it to some specific feature of the models or the animations, although there are some that stand out, like the oversized eyes the emotes, the walk-cycle and the way the characters stand with their chest pushed forward.

    As they explained, kind of hard to have SOEmote work without that large eyes and what not. As I said above, guess they could ditch SOEmote for the sake of smaller eyes. The walking is a bit off, but then again, most games are like that and who walks? Seems like everyone will be sprinting non stop anyway, which is another issue.

    This specific style makes the characters just look lame, shallow and schmaltzy. They look as if they would start singing any moment. I just can't relate to these type of characters and they aren't suitable for any type of serious storytelling.

    This I get. While I've never found EQ games to be "serious" I do get the break into song vibe. My hope is that it is simply due to lack of variety. The DE look less likely to be members of Glee, assuming Iksar/Ogres will be even less so. Between character customizing and adding in more detail (gear, atmosphere) the rainbow sunshine vibe will be less in your face.

    Then again this isn't Dark Souls, so it probably will never go too far into what some would prefer.

    So if you ask me what I would like to be changed, the answer is, I don't even care as long as the models and character animations diverge from that specific feel. Anything that makes them less look like Disney characters would be ok. They should be stylized but less cartoony, maybe a bit like in GW2 as a general direction. Then they would fit better with the world graphics too. Note that I don't demand super realistic or gritty character models, although a tiny push in that direction would be fine.

     Hoping the same thing. As I said above, I think it will happen, just need to see more. I could single out some totally silly things from EQ, doesn't mean the entire game have a bunch of giggling skeletons, blinding particle effects, or giants that looked ripped out of a kids coloring book.

    I understand that they wanted the characters to be expressive, but I'm sure there can be expressive characters that don't rip off Disney. The way they look I just can't identify with them or even take them serious. They just completely ruin my immersion.

    While I can some what agree, I actually might feel the opposite as well. The fact that they are even close to being Disney quality or worth comparing, gives me the impression that they at least look "good" relatively speaking. Don't see anyone comparing WoW/Wildstar to Disney for example. Guess I'd rather have quality over a vague feeling of it being more "right", not sure the word to use.

    I bet many would rather EQN looks like TESO. But to me it is so blah looking and lacks any originality. Just another colorless fantasy mmorpg. I don't need everyone to be rainbow striped, but it is nice to seeing them at least try to being something else, even if they took it a bit too far.

    The worst of all that is that it is all so unnecessary. SOE could have chosen everything they wanted. Almost everything else would have been better. This specific look is a milestone around the neck of EQN and it is alienating a lot of players. 

    As I said to Archlyte, it might be true that some dislike it, but looking at other popular products, there are still more then enough that will like or at least tolerate it. Actually think there might be more interest in EQN because it looks so different, then the other way around. When people scanned the game boxes and saw WoW in the crowd, I bet it stood out. Highly doubt many are going crazy over GW2/TESO type graphics as they aren't unique at all within the genre. They don't hurt the games as EQN's might, but don't think they are selling more copies because of their art style either.

     

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550

    If emotion indication is the goal which trumps all, why not save some time and money and just use these on top of player's heads.

    imageimage

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,619
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Archlyte
    The problem is that the capability is available to do graphics that look more realistic, are tuned to current average machines, and could be updated later if your game is successful. I'm talking like 10 years later, because no one is going to stop playing your game because your realistic characters are not looking as nice as cartoons.

    Factoring in voxels, storybricks, and other machine taxing features? Or they should dump those and go for realistic models instead? Basically go back to either of the other two versions of the game they were working on. There were a couple leaked animated models years back and they were more realistic looking, but weren't that exciting. Maybe they just can't hack it when it comes to realism and had to go the more stylized look?

    Our of curiosity, what would you prefer EQN to look like, compared to? Please don't say Bless/Black Desert.

     

    Well they wouldnt have to drop stroybricks or voxels to have less of a Disney vibe for character models. The Voxel Farm Engine ( the guys they are relying on for help ) use a more realistic look and they also do not have the horrible LOD at distance that Landmark has...

    What leaked models are you referring? There was a leaked screenshot a couple years ago that was pretty darn awesome of a Human Male.

    I personally just want them to drop the Disney models in favor of something mixed along the lines of GW2 or RIFT. They even bypassed artistic and jumped right to ripping off Tangled / Frozen and any other recent Disney movie. May as well name my character Flynn Rider...

    I think the world can look really good if they solve the LOD issue like VFE has ( more or less ) and resize the trees(!).. It may have been in this thread or another where I said I didnt think the character models actually match the game world.

    The models isnt all we have to worry about either but what comes with it.. Oversized armor and weapons. There wont be any sleek looking swords but rather a giant paddle that kinda looks like it has an edge.. Gloves may as well be boxing gloves and the boots...yikes. Not even going to touch on the obvious coming of the giant shoulder guards. 

    On another note I am not sure why they are wanting to push SOEmote when very few people used it in EQ2 ( I didnt know anyone personally that used it ).. Which makes me scratch my head as to why they think it is a priority or important.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    SlyLoK

    I agree that the models could look more realistic and I have no doubt there will be options there. We've only been showed a handful of faces thus far though for the intended effect they will only be so realistic.

    I think the same holds true of the armor. I think the proportions shown in the combat and content videos are a pretty good. I don't think the intent is realism and I think when the scales are tilted too far in that direction it's boring and less fantasy.

    It would be interesting to see a poll of why SoEMote wasn't used in EQ2 more. Could be performance was part of the issue and also relevance. In order to see the facial movements, due to the model type, you had to be close and with the textures used did not look very good. That may have been one of the reasons for a more stylized look with Next. I think people will be surprised at the total feel when they walk up to someone and talk to them.

    The importance of SoEMote goes far beyond the players use for it however. In development they can use it to make all the NPCs that have voice dialog also have matching facial movements without the added cost of separate animation. That alone with worth it. In EQ2 this gave the world a much more immersive feel. In Next where there will be more "feelings" associated with AI and an artsyle that accentuates these features it should be even more immersive. We'll have to see if this is the case.
  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by Allein
     

    As they explained, kind of hard to have SOEmote work without that large eyes and what not. As I said above, guess they could ditch SOEmote for the sake of smaller eyes. The walking is a bit off, but then again, most games are like that and who walks? Seems like everyone will be sprinting non stop anyway, which is another issue.

    As I said it is not one single feature alone but a combination of many things. So if the eyes are so important, they can stay that way. There are other games that have character model that are optimized to be expressive. The Sims 4 did a great job there. But their characters don't have that Disney vibe to them and they are a bit more on the realistic side compared to EQN.

    This I get. While I've never found EQ games to be "serious" I do get the break into song vibe. My hope is that it is simply due to lack of variety. The DE look less likely to be members of Glee, assuming Iksar/Ogres will be even less so. Between character customizing and adding in more detail (gear, atmosphere) the rainbow sunshine vibe will be less in your face.

    Then again this isn't Dark Souls, so it probably will never go too far into what some would prefer.

    I hope that too. Maybe it will all not be that bad, but maybe it will. The game still has a long way to go. It seems that with the new models they have shown they are gong baby steps in the right direction compared to "Joleena" and "Keesha".

    In the combat video there was the paladin. Apparently this time they tried to make him look as badass as they could. But it is still the same style and while I can get to like this character a bit more, I still get a strong King Triton vibe from him.

     Hoping the same thing. As I said above, I think it will happen, just need to see more. I could single out some totally silly things from EQ, doesn't mean the entire game have a bunch of giggling skeletons, blinding particle effects, or giants that looked ripped out of a kids coloring book.

    I think it doesn't really matter what EQ and EQ II looked like. In EQ the player characters where kind of a mixed bag. Some where more on the realistic side and some where really comedic, but one couldn't really tell due to the technical limitations. 

    While I can some what agree, I actually might feel the opposite as well. The fact that they are even close to being Disney quality or worth comparing, gives me the impression that they at least look "good" relatively speaking. Don't see anyone comparing WoW/Wildstar to Disney for example. Guess I'd rather have quality over a vague feeling of it being more "right", not sure the word to use.

    I bet many would rather EQN looks like TESO. But to me it is so blah looking and lacks any originality. Just another colorless fantasy mmorpg. I don't need everyone to be rainbow striped, but it is nice to seeing them at least try to being something else, even if they took it a bit too far.

    I think that there is a reason why WoW and Wildstar don't get compared to Disney that much. It is actually pretty hard to nail that style so precisely. It must have been done on purpose. Rosie Rappaport already admitted that she's a giant Disney fan.

    I wouldn't say that Disney automatically means quality. I must say that the graphics in Landmark and in the videos don't look very polished yet.

    I think you have a problem with the fact that art can't be quantified. But apparently see that there is something wrong with this graphics, and the vast majority of the veteran mmo crowd thinks that too.

    You have to consider that it really not that hard to satisfy most players when it comes to an art style. I have never seen any game where the art style was so controversial. Normally this is not a huge topic. Apparently this time they have done something that just doesn't fit. It heard two types of responses so far: "I hate the characters" and "I can tolerate it and graphics don't really matte anyway." but never met a singe person who was impressed by the art style. You have to admit that this is odd.

    As I said to Archlyte, it might be true that some dislike it, but looking at other popular products, there are still more then enough that will like or at least tolerate it. Actually think there might be more interest in EQN because it looks so different, then the other way around. When people scanned the game boxes and saw WoW in the crowd, I bet it stood out. Highly doubt many are going crazy over GW2/TESO type graphics as they aren't unique at all within the genre. They don't hurt the games as EQN's might, but don't think they are selling more copies because of their art style either.

    Maybe you are right and we are just not SOEs main target demographic. It seems to me that they try to appeal to younger players, the casual games crowd and MOBA crowd. Other design decisions go in this direction too.

    On the other hand they are building a sandbox with lots of innovative features. I think that these two things clash, because it is hard to be casual friendly at the same time.

    It often seems to me as if SOE was really making two different games, a sandbox that will revolutionize the genre and some casual action mmo. I not sure which game we are going to get in the end.

    I wouldn't say that cartoony graphics is something that is different. I mean you already mentioned WoW and Wildstar. 

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,608

    I love character design and individualization in games, so I can understand the distress of those who don't feel enthused about the look of characters in EQ:N.  

     

    But 'I don't like' is not the same thing as 'Was done bad'.

     

    I'm going to give it a whirl, not personally put off by the art style.  The game will live or die based on the Storybricks implementation imo.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by Sengi

    I think that there is a reason why WoW and Wildstar don't get compared to Disney that much. It is actually pretty hard to nail that style so precisely. It must have been done on purpose. Rosie Rappaport already admitted that she's a giant Disney fan.

    As are millions of others. It does scream Disney, but as an adult that has enjoyed Disney movies for the last 30+ years, I don't see why that is such a bad thing. To me it is no different then how comics change drastically depending on the artist or story or current trends. Some times I see a Spiderman comic and want to puke, but it is what it is. They went out on a limb to try something very different then the competition, it may or may not pay off.

    I wouldn't say that Disney automatically means quality. I must say that the graphics in Landmark and in the videos don't look very polished yet.

    Agreed, but compared to WoW's updated models or other actual recent releases, I feel EQN's models are a step above at least quality wise. ESO's painted on armors for example. If it means going a bit cartoony to give some textures, depth, "realism"?, then I'm for it.

    I think you have a problem with the fact that art can't be quantified. But apparently see that there is something wrong with this graphics, and the vast majority of the veteran mmo crowd thinks that too.

    My problem is that the vet crowd or at least the vocal minority which is made up of a fairly small number think that SOE should be making a game for them instead of the much larger crowd that seems to enjoy such art.

    You have to consider that it really not that hard to satisfy most players when it comes to an art style. I have never seen any game where the art style was so controversial. Normally this is not a huge topic. Apparently this time they have done something that just doesn't fit. It heard two types of responses so far: "I hate the characters" and "I can tolerate it and graphics don't really matte anyway." but never met a singe person who was impressed by the art style. You have to admit that this is odd.

    Then again who is paying any attention to EQN currently? Going to go on limb and say most are those that played EQ either early on or at least a while back. SOE has said they aren't really the main demo. Not nice to hear, but it is what it is. Cater to 35+ crowd that might not be playing the game in 1, 5, 10 years or go after a slightly younger crowd or at least those playing other games with stylized art.

    I personally like the art style. Would I mind something a bit more "mature" of course not, but I get where they are going and it fits. WoW was a fairly decent step away from other previous games and it did pretty good. Playing DAoC at the time, I sure heard a load of talk of how silly and childish it looked, despite the Warcraft franchise being known for it. Wanna guess where most of those DAoC people ended up? I remember laughing at some guidies when they seemed to forget all the things they said.

    Maybe you are right and we are just not SOEs main target demographic. It seems to me that they try to appeal to younger players, the casual games crowd and MOBA crowd. Other design decisions go in this direction too.

    With those groups making up the vast majority of gamers, I'd have to agree.

    On the other hand they are building a sandbox with lots of innovative features. I think that these two things clash, because it is hard to be casual friendly at the same time.

    It often seems to me as if SOE was really making two different games, a sandbox that will revolutionize the genre and some casual action mmo. I not sure which game we are going to get in the end.

    While I think EQN will appeal to casuals, it doesn't have to only appeal to them. With the AI, difficulty scaling, Tiers, etc they can very easily have a wide variety of content. This black or white view seems to not fit. Then again, we don't know a heck of a lot about the game so it could go any number of ways.

    I wouldn't say that cartoony graphics is something that is different. I mean you already mentioned WoW and Wildstar. Not too different, but WoW/WS are much more light hearted even comedic games. EQN at least from the lore and what they've said seem a bit more serious. Doubting half the NPCs are going to have one liners ready to go.

     

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by SlyLoK

    Well they wouldnt have to drop stroybricks or voxels to have less of a Disney vibe for character models. The Voxel Farm Engine ( the guys they are relying on for help ) use a more realistic look and they also do not have the horrible LOD at distance that Landmark has...

    As is, Landmark doesn't run well on many machines. Could be any number of reasons, but I'm assuming that tossing in all the dynamic AI stuff, lots more pretty races/gear/animations, mobs of all shapes and sizes, etc that it will be even more power intensive. Voxel Farm doesn't have much going on, it is just the world from what I've seen. Toss in hundreds/thousands of players and all the typical mmo stuff into one of the Voxel Farm systems and it might be a different story. Not that EQN models aren't fairly high poly count and what not, but if you crank of the realism, so does everything else and it just pushes the power need further. Then again, I don't know that much about the tech end so I could be wrong.

    What leaked models are you referring? There was a leaked screenshot a couple years ago that was pretty darn awesome of a Human Male.

    The one with the red face? That is actually from SOE Live (fan faire). There were at least two, one looked like a human in full plate armor and either an Orc or Ogre. Both were game renders or whatever in running mode. Weren't a huge leap away from EQ2's art style. Probably could find them somewhere, but I know they weren't allowed to be posted here. EQN is on it's 3rd reboot, at least one of the previous 2 versions were playable to some degree says EQHammer. One of them claims to have had hands on. So I'm assuming there was a fairly different look until the last 2 years or so when they adapted for Voxels and the whole action/heroic deal.

    I personally just want them to drop the Disney models in favor of something mixed along the lines of GW2 or RIFT. They even bypassed artistic and jumped right to ripping off Tangled / Frozen and any other recent Disney movie. May as well name my character Flynn Rider...

    Understandable. To me though, GW2/Rift/Tera and the majority of Eastern mmos all look a like. Just like ESO, DAoC and some of the Western games. None of them really stand out. I posted some clips a while back of Black Desert or Bless (can't remember) besides GW2, despite how pretty the BD/Bless look, in action they aren't much better then GW2. Probably be hard for some to tell them apart honestly. No SOE didn't have to go Frozen, but they did and they will at least not be compared to any other mmorpgs (beyond WoW, because cartoon...). I want SOE devs to drive 20 min to my house and cut my grass, we don't always get what we want.

    I think the world can look really good if they solve the LOD issue like VFE has ( more or less ) and resize the trees(!).. It may have been in this thread or another where I said I didnt think the character models actually match the game world.

    Landmark is made to be a bit over the top from what I understand, from all the stuff shown of EQN demos, I'm not really worried of EQN having the same appearance as Landmark, despite the shared art assets. 

    The models isnt all we have to worry about either but what comes with it.. Oversized armor and weapons. There wont be any sleek looking swords but rather a giant paddle that kinda looks like it has an edge.. Gloves may as well be boxing gloves and the boots...yikes. Not even going to touch on the obvious coming of the giant shoulder guards. 

    They seem to be aware of the hatred for such things and have made note of it. Then again, they want everything to be over the top. This isn't the typical bland, everything is brown and gloomy, fantasy world. Again, they could of made GW2.5 or whatever art, but then everyone would of gone "It looks just like GW2 OMG!"

    On another note I am not sure why they are wanting to push SOEmote when very few people used it in EQ2 ( I didnt know anyone personally that used it ).. Which makes me scratch my head as to why they think it is a priority or important.

    Web cams and mics are much more common then even a short while ago. People love to be watched and recorded apparently. They have the tech and it looks much improved from EQ2, why not use it? I could understand if made the models look "bad" but as stylized/cartoony they still look "good." Even without SOEmote. Simple /smile emotes will look much improved over other games as well. Shouldn't need to be zoomed in 2 inches from someone's character to know what they are doing without also reading text.

     

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Archlyte

    A landslide starts somewhere, and the discontent with EQNext will begin with people shifting uncomfortably in their seats as they watch the Disney MMO on their monitors. People will also see ads for the game and simply say, "I'll pass." It's started already.

    You seem to have completely ignored my list of popular products that say otherwise. Then again, we do tend to talk as if our opinions = everyone else's, so I get it. What options do those passing have that fit more into what you'd want? The fact that you are here leads me to believe that there isn't much else out there worth your time currently.

    Why don't you get back on topic instead of trying to make this about me. I ignored your point because it's baseless. The capability to make more physiologically correct characters exists, but they don't need to use it because XY had Z game had such characters so it's ok?

    The voxel world doesn't match the characters anyway. To make a micro voxel you have to really fuck with that thing until you get a small block that is either a dot of material or is a smaller square that is bloated on it's faces. You can't actually make anything in the game that looks like your character's Hair or any of that.

     

    There is no good excuse for making the characters like this other than their stupid art design people got their way.

     

    The defenses here are simply excuse making. The EQ title is a lie, pure and simple, because nothing about the game is EQ, and making the game look ridiculous is the first evidence of the acrimony that the name carries. Dealer advertises a CorvetteNext but just put the Corvette feel on a Subcompact with oversized windows and a rounded body. They are the makers of the corvette, they can do what they want right? I just hope you didn't have any kind of attachment to Corvettes.

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,619

    Looking at the Barbarian picture up a few posts... Outside of the boots and face it is acceptable. Though it would look better if there was a cloak / cape coming over his shoulders that attach to those things ( arg I forget what they are called ) on the chest armor at the shoulder.

    Not sure why the boots would be the size of his waste and both the size of the chest width.. Nonsense.

  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by Allein

    As are millions of others. It does scream Disney, but as an adult that has enjoyed Disney movies for the last 30+ years, I don't see why that is such a bad thing. To me it is no different then how comics change drastically depending on the artist or story or current trends. Some times I see a Spiderman comic and want to puke, but it is what it is. They went out on a limb to try something very different then the competition, it may or may not pay off.

    ...

     Not too different, but WoW/WS are much more light hearted even comedic games. EQN at least from the lore and what they've said seem a bit more serious. Doubting half the NPCs are going to have one liners ready to go.

    I wasn't arguing that Disney movies are bad. I enjoy them too for what they are. The problem is that Disney movies an Everquest just don't belong together.

    Disney movies have a certain tone and a certain type of storytelling. They are schmaltzy, goofy and not particularly smart, especially the newer ones. (Of course they are meant to be that way.)

    If EQN looks so much like a Disney movie it will naturally be associated with them, including their tone and their type or storytelling.

    As you said, EQN is going a more serious route with its lore. Now there is a dissonance between the art style and the storytelling that is irritating. This is sometimes done on purpose to make things more creepy, in Toystory III for example, but it is certainly no good idea to give EQN that general undertone.

     

    I'm not arguing against stylized graphics in general but only against the very odd choice to give the characters this Disney vibe. It is certainly possible to archive everything they want to archive with the graphics while getting rid of that connotation. Other games manage to do that too.

     

    Ok, you can see the Disney thing as kind of a gamble. They run it up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes to it. Maybe there is a demographic out there that is into that thing, who knows.

    On the other hand the Everquest franchise already has a quite large fan-base. I think it is risky to alienate the fans you have in order to get new ones. Maybe the people who play LoL don't want to play a sandbox mmo. I really hope SOE has a plan. Maybe I only speak for a minority, but there is one thing we can be sure of and that is that  the vast majority of players doesn't want to be reminded of Disney movies all the time when they play EQN. 

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Archlyte

    "There is no good excuse for making the characters like this other than their stupid art design people got their way."

    No, there are many reasons and I listed a big one earlier on this thread. What "EQ" was had nothing to do with graphics IMO.

    I'll also have to disagree that the characters don't match the world. They share the same color palette and shading. I've seen egregious examples where they didn't match and some where the colors are so dull it doesn't matter.
  • mikunimanmikuniman Member UncommonPosts: 374
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Gameplay is what will make or break EQNext.

    In the end its all about gameplay.

    Very true, shouldn't be a sacrifice though.  I  wouldn't drive a butt ugly car just because it performed well. If I'm going to spend countless hours on an mmo it better be pleasing to my eye and have good gameplay.

    On the cartoon subject. I think what most are saying and I agree about EQN is the damn doe eyed Disney look. At least they could have given it some sort of edge. Same goes for facial animations where it's even more prominent. 

  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Originally posted by Sengi
    I wasn't arguing that Disney movies are bad. I enjoy them too for what they are. The problem is that Disney movies an Everquest just don't belong together.

    Disney movies have a certain tone and a certain type of storytelling. They are schmaltzy, goofy and not particularly smart, especially the newer ones. (Of course they are meant to be that way.)

    If EQN looks so much like a Disney movie it will naturally be associated with them, including their tone and their type or storytelling.

    As you said, EQN is going a more serious route with its lore. Now there is a dissonance between the art style and the storytelling that is irritating. This is sometimes done on purpose to make things more creepy, in Toystory III for example, but it is certainly no good idea to give EQN that general undertone.

     

    I'm not arguing against stylized graphics in general but only against the very odd choice to give the characters this Disney vibe. It is certainly possible to archive everything they want to archive with the graphics while getting rid of that connotation. Other games manage to do that too.

     

    Ok, you can see the Disney thing as kind of a gamble. They run it up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes to it. Maybe there is a demographic out there that is into that thing, who knows.

    On the other hand the Everquest franchise already has a quite large fan-base. I think it is risky to alienate the fans you have in order to get new ones. Maybe the people who play LoL don't want to play a sandbox mmo. I really hope SOE has a plan. Maybe I only speak for a minority, but there is one thing we can be sure of and that is that  the vast majority of players doesn't want to be reminded of Disney movies all the time when they play EQN. 

    You have missed the point entirely, do not get offended many people seem to make this mistake.

    • Dave Georgeson became enamored with a piece of technology they called SOE Emote.
    • This was supposed to 'enhance' game play by displaying the players facial expressions on the Avatar in real time.
    • They trialed this in Everquest 2 (maybe elsewhere as well)
    • They found that the 'normal' avatars did not display the facial expression sufficiently clearly for recognition
    • So they developed Avatars for EQ Not! that had larger eyes, mouths etc.  so that SOE Emote would work better
    • This emphasis on eyes, mouths etc is what Disney do to enhance the readability of faces in cartoon characters for children.
    • Hence the two styles look similar.
    What SOE and Dave Georgeson have not done is explain what use the SOE Emote technology actually is for game play.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Indeed. SoEMote and the world NPCs in general due the emotions through AI.
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,619
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Indeed. SoEMote and the world NPCs in general due the emotions through AI.

    We will be in 3rd person and probably zoomed out a decent bit because of how the combat is going to be.. Unless we zoom in when interacting with NPCs I fail to see how facial expressions add anything of significance to gameplay ( and I HOPE we dont have to deal with those mini cutscenes so many MMOs use when talking with NPCs. I hate that! ). I know I wouldnt be able to hardly see any emotes at my normal camera setup.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by SlyLoK

    Looking at the Barbarian picture up a few posts... Outside of the boots and face it is acceptable. Though it would look better if there was a cloak / cape coming over his shoulders that attach to those things ( arg I forget what they are called ) on the chest armor at the shoulder.

    Not sure why the boots would be the size of his waste and both the size of the chest width.. Nonsense.

    The problem is that the barbarian is closer to human norms, except he is a giant sized guy compared to humans, who are stunted and have Disney faces with hominid bodies. So you have to be a Barbarian to look halfway human (Albeit over-muscled), and if you play a human you will be a primate with a Disney face.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
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