I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Spoken like a true dungeoneer. Those of us who actually PvP and seek 1on1s or 2on2s or 5on5s would disagree with 99% of your post. So all I can say to you and the OP is learn to play I guess. Gw2 has many systems. Most of them can be tweaked to the liking of a casual person and the liking of a hardcore player, while both type of people enjoy the same game and the same gametype. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
Personally my dodge button is not the rotation, its the "OSHICRAP" button. If dodge is your rotation then I have some really really bad news for you.
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Spoken like a true dungeoneer. Those of us who actually PvP and seek 1on1s or 2on2s or 5on5s would disagree with 99% of your post. So all I can say to you and the OP is learn to play I guess. Gw2 has many systems. Most of them can be tweaked to the liking of a casual person and the liking of a hardcore player, while both type of people enjoy the same game and the same gametype. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
I make a point of dismissing any post that has learn to play as its central argument.
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Spoken like a true dungeoneer. Those of us who actually PvP and seek 1on1s or 2on2s or 5on5s would disagree with 99% of your post. So all I can say to you and the OP is learn to play I guess. Gw2 has many systems. Most of them can be tweaked to the liking of a casual person and the liking of a hardcore player, while both type of people enjoy the same game and the same gametype. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
I make a point of dismissing any post that has learn to play as its central argument.
[mod edit]
The simple fact that projectiles do not follow you around makes Gw2 more combat-ish than other MMOs some of you tend to compare it to. I can simply strafe against a ranged class and avoid most of the damage without ever dodging. It's how people solo certain dungeon bosses you know
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Most of GW2s AI combat is not telegraphed, therefore, pressing "a" button like in WS is completely different. Dodging in GW2 is an integral part of the combat system and isn't just part of the rotation.
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Most of GW2s AI combat is not telegraphed, therefore, pressing "a" button like in WS is completely different. Dodging in GW2 is integral part of the combat system and isn't just part of the rotation.
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Most of GW2s AI combat is not telegraphed, therefore, pressing "a" button like in WS is completely different. Dodging in GW2 is integral part of the combat system and isn't just part of the rotation.
I think some people just are clueless as to what 'action combat' actually is. And since it's largely a made-up term to begin with, it makes it annoying trying to provide an 'official' definition. There's been so many discussions on this, and by every basic criteria for what constitutes 'action combat' GW2 meets those requirements.
Things like telegraphs & such are mostly just icing. And serve to make the combat more/less engaging or challenging. You can have action combat with or without those things. Though having some sort of telegraph is usually needed to make the combat actually enjoyable (so you don't feel like you're dying to BS all the time).
- Btw really nice video. Does a good job explaining (in depth) some of the fundamental skills that separate the good PvPers from the bad. I see a lot of people who just kind of go through the motions (use a rotation), and they are extremely predictable. It's not hard to use that against them and end up whipping the floor w/ them repeatedly. It doesn't really cover when to prioritize certain moves over others (defensively), but it does get the point across. This is a skill-based game, which is one of the primary factors for having action combat.
I thought GW2 was widely accepted as a hybrid tab-targetting/ action system. Personally I think it is a poor version of both.
The problem with having a dodge button which you press when an enemy telegraphs a move is that it becomes just another button in your rotation. It is not like true action combat which is fluid and requires tactics and positioning, it is more the Pavlov's dog of gaming design- you are told to press a button so you press it.
Most of GW2s AI combat is not telegraphed, therefore, pressing "a" button like in WS is completely different. Dodging in GW2 is integral part of the combat system and isn't just part of the rotation.
I think some people just are clueless as to what 'action combat' actually is. And since it's largely a made-up term to begin with, it makes it annoying trying to provide an 'official' definition. There's been so many discussions on this, and by every basic criteria for what constitutes 'action combat' GW2 meets those requirements.
Things like telegraphs & such are mostly just icing. And serve to make the combat more/less engaging or challenging. You can have action combat with or without those things. Though having some sort of telegraph is usually needed to make the combat actually enjoyable (so you don't feel like you're dying to BS all the time).
- Btw really nice video. Does a good job explaining (in depth) some of the fundamental skills that separate the good PvPers from the bad. I see a lot of people who just kind of go through the motions (use a rotation), and they are extremely predictable. It's not hard to use that against them and end up whipping the floor w/ them repeatedly. It doesn't really cover when to prioritize certain moves over others (defensively), but it does get the point across. This is a skill-based game, which is one of the primary factors for having action combat.
I mostly agree with your post, just your last sentence makes me wonder a bit that "skill" doesn't determine whether a game is good or bad. I guess there is skill in WoW, once you've done all the gear treadmill bullshit and have equal armor/stats, there's some level of player skill involved as to which combos to trigger and take down your opponent faster. I wouldn't say WoW is an action game however. Same goes for SWTOR as well, its even more evident in there. Combat is rather static in a way that your position doesn't really matter and you can't dodge/step away from a projectiles since they're all like a homing missile, sometimes even hitting through obstacles like hugeass rocks and stuff xD
Gw2 on the hand takes all of the above into consideration and "fixes" it and still provides tab target combat for the people with worse reflexes. It really is a game that can be consumed by anyone. From the most casual to the most action-oriented hardcore players. This alone, IMO, makes it one of the best games on the market today. When people judge Gw2 they tend to forget all those facts. And plainly just turn blind eye to amazing set of systems that augment user experience. But that's a talk for another topic Good post though!
Nah, he just misinterpret mine, I guess. Understandable since my comment was rather off topic :-P
I wasn't talking about combat mechanics, just the visual, art side of combat - something that wasn't satisfying me.
And no, combat "flow" and combat mechanics are not separate. Combat mechanics sets technical parametrs for artist who then work on the "feel". It determines how the combat will "feel" by large margin.
Well you borrowed the "feedback from" someone that described the combat as "flailing around with impunity".
I have read many times people using the expression "hitting air" to describe certain games where they dislike the combat or that "they get no feedback when they hit".
Not many used this to describe GW2 but I have seen many applying it to a game that released between Tera and GW2 - TSW.
I felt TSW combat was clunky compared to GW2 and disliked some of the animations, especially the jump one, but I don't see how in TSW people feel like hitting air and in a game like WoW or GW2 they don't.
Also you can turn GW2 combat into combat Tera, and vice-versa, by adjusting some settings - in fact GW2 has attacks that you have to stop (and a bunch of those were actually reworked to not have to stop).
On the other hand a game like WoW would require quite a rework to have its combat match GW2 or Tera.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I would not call it action combat. It is definitely a hybrid in my opinion.
It is also one of the most disappointing aspects of GW2. My biggest problems are what many others have mentioned already. There is no feedback, nothing feels solid. Even the sounds make you feel like you are hitting nothing much. The other being that there is not much strategy to it at all, you basically roll around like a maniac auto-attacking until your cooldowns expire. Maybe I had my expectation too high but it was not what I thought it would be.
I remember seeing some videos before the game was released that made the combat seem better than it actually turned out to be on release. This is actually my problem in general with GW2. Many of the features seemed a whole lot better on paper before release.
Oh well, many still enjoy the game...good for them. I still jump in occasionally, but I usually get bored with it pretty quickly.
I would not call it action combat. It is definitely a hybrid in my opinion.
It is also one of the most disappointing aspects of GW2. My biggest problems are what many others have mentioned already. There is no feedback, nothing feels solid. Even the sounds make you feel like you are hitting nothing much. The other being that there is not much strategy to it at all, you basically roll around like a maniac auto-attacking until your cooldowns expire. Maybe I had my expectation too high but it was not what I thought it would be.
I remember seeing some videos before the game was released that made the combat seem better than it actually turned out to be on release. This is actually my problem in general with GW2. Many of the features seemed a whole lot better on paper before release.
Oh well, many still enjoy the game...good for them. I still jump in occasionally, but I usually get bored with it pretty quickly.
Yeah I feel you. From what you've described in terms of combat I suppose you are a free frag. If I have to auto attack to kill someone I'll kill myself.
It's not an action combat. The devs never labeled as such. The dodging feels and looks bad, and there's no feedback to speak of. Playing it I never felt the feedback like when I play Bayonetta, God of War or Vindictus.I wish I had the technical know-how to explain it. Flailing around with impunity does not and never will equal action combat to me.
Feedback! That is the term I was looking for and feeling I had lacking when playing the game.
Feedback for me is another word like immersion that are thrown around to try to make something that is personal preference into some kind of a fact.
Gdemami isn't doing that, though. They're describing it as what it feels like to them personally.
Seems that you're just looking for a way to dismiss an opinion you disagree with.
I think the statements saying 'GW2 has action combat' are definitely correct, because the combat is filled with actions. A typical fight includes multiple dodges, moving from danger zones, positioning (ie; flanking bonuses), and using weapon skills.
The weapon skills can reflect projectiles across a certain area, so placing it in the right place in the world is necessary (action!). There are weapon skills that grant you invulnerability for .5 to 2.5 seconds (or longer) so timing them right is important (action!). There are weapon skills that teleport you around (action!). Every class has examples of these.
GW2 is a highly mobile game. And in end game dungeon speed runs where the stacking method is used, it's all about timing dodges/invuls/reflects/etc perfectly or your stack fails and everyone dies. GW2 requires practice on timing and memorizing enemy tells to avoid damage.
It's full of action. Forget the usual action combat definition because as someone posted above, there isn't one. If you want action, GW2 has it. It is a very fast paced game for some classes.
If you don't think it's an action game, roll a thief, solo some champs with dagger/dagger, and come back to me.
edit: In terms of feedback, I agree with a lot of posters here. Feedback is definitely missing for some abilities, especially dodging. Even a soft "whoosh" sound for each successful evade would be cool.
Gdemami isn't doing that, though. They're describing it as what it feels like to them personally.
Seems that you're just looking for a way to dismiss an opinion you disagree with.
If someone says that it feels they are hitting air, yeah I'll dismiss it.
If someone says that they don't like how the combat feel, it is their opinion and there is nothing to dismiss.
Actually, 'hitting' air is something that some action games address. Vindictus is the ONLY online MMO-ish game that does address it though. When you actually slice an enemy, your attack speed actually slows down, which is part of what gives the 'feedback' of actually hitting an enemy. There's also the property of knockback that's built into many of the more powerful moves in Vindictus. Attacks that makes your character charge in a straight line will get diverted when you charge into a large enough enemy because you can't pass through it. Sound effects also have a lot to do with it the 'feel' of the combat.
When people complain about games not feeling actiony enough, they're generally comparing it to console action games like God of War or Bayonetta. The only online game that comes close to replicating that feel is Vindictus. Even TERA is pretty much lacking when it comes to action mechanics compared to Vindictus.
Here are a few videos that hopefully demonstrate what I mean:
The reason why Vindictus is a step above every other combat MMO is because its hit boxes are actually precise. When bosses attack, only their attack 'area's are considered hitboxes. The player's hitbox isn't just a box or sphere, but the actual 3D model. For example, if a boss does a horizontal swipe, it's actually possible to duck under the bosses's attack and not get hit. There's no duck mechanic in the game, but certain moves for various characters forces the animation to hug closer ot the ground than the standard standing animation, allowing short characters (yes, height actually matters) to use certain attacks to dodge moves that normaly would require the use of an invincibility frame dodge to evade.
Gdemami isn't doing that, though. They're describing it as what it feels like to them personally.
Seems that you're just looking for a way to dismiss an opinion you disagree with.
If someone says that it feels they are hitting air, yeah I'll dismiss it.
If someone says that they don't like how the combat feel, it is their opinion and there is nothing to dismiss.
Actually, 'hitting' air is something that some action games address. Vindictus is the ONLY online MMO-ish game that does address it though. When you actually slice an enemy, your attack speed actually slows down, which is part of what gives the 'feedback' of actually hitting an enemy. There's also the property of knockback that's built into many of the more powerful moves in Vindictus. Attacks that makes your character charge in a straight line will get diverted when you charge into a large enough enemy because you can't pass through it. Sound effects also have a lot to do with it the 'feel' of the combat.
When people complain about games not feeling actiony enough, they're generally comparing it to console action games like God of War or Bayonetta. The only online game that comes close to replicating that feel is Vindictus. Even TERA is pretty much lacking when it comes to action mechanics compared to Vindictus.
Here are a few videos that hopefully demonstrate what I mean:
The reason why Vindictus is a step above every other combat MMO is because its hit boxes are actually precise. When bosses attack, only their attack 'area's are considered hitboxes. The player's hitbox isn't just a box or sphere, but the actual 3D model. For example, if a boss does a horizontal swipe, it's actually possible to duck under the bosses's attack and not get hit. There's no duck mechanic in the game, but certain moves for various characters forces the animation to hug closer ot the ground than the standard standing animation, allowing short characters (yes, height actually matters) to use certain attacks to dodge moves that normaly would require the use of an invincibility frame dodge to evade.
Part of what Vindictus can do comes from the fact it is small instances and not open world.
One can just compare GW1 AI and full body block vs GW2.
Knock backs and deflections GW2 also has them. Guardian hammer #4 is always fun as is seeing people bouncing of a line or ring of warding.
In Vindictus, hit the enemy or hit the air, the animation is still the same as one can see from the videos you linked.
If one compares some of GW2 animations to Vindictus they are fairly similar. Vindictus seems to spend more time at the end of swing that GW2, but in GW2 some weapons, like hammer, can have long animation cycles.
Vindictus hit boxes are still boxes - you can't aim the head or the arms.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I wouldn't say Action combat, but it is "actiony".
The entire game though plays more like an MMOAG than an MMORPG. The watered down and shallow skill system, the lack of trinity and zerg type activities fit more of an action type game than an RPG....
Originally posted by mikunimanGreat vid I ran across while back explaining combat models in mmos mentioned, creds to acolyterushWhat Does 'Action Combat' Mean'?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc
Excellent video. It very much explains what I had on mind and why after playing TERA, GW2 just won't cut it for me.
Also, it is a great reminder how difficult MMO development is, those things just won't happen, there is lots of thoughts, decisions and compromises behind something seemingly so commonplace as combat.
Gdemami isn't doing that, though. They're describing it as what it feels like to them personally.
Seems that you're just looking for a way to dismiss an opinion you disagree with.
If someone says that it feels they are hitting air, yeah I'll dismiss it.
If someone says that they don't like how the combat feel, it is their opinion and there is nothing to dismiss.
Actually, 'hitting' air is something that some action games address. Vindictus is the ONLY online MMO-ish game that does address it though. When you actually slice an enemy, your attack speed actually slows down, which is part of what gives the 'feedback' of actually hitting an enemy. There's also the property of knockback that's built into many of the more powerful moves in Vindictus. Attacks that makes your character charge in a straight line will get diverted when you charge into a large enough enemy because you can't pass through it. Sound effects also have a lot to do with it the 'feel' of the combat.
When people complain about games not feeling actiony enough, they're generally comparing it to console action games like God of War or Bayonetta. The only online game that comes close to replicating that feel is Vindictus. Even TERA is pretty much lacking when it comes to action mechanics compared to Vindictus.
Here are a few videos that hopefully demonstrate what I mean:
The reason why Vindictus is a step above every other combat MMO is because its hit boxes are actually precise. When bosses attack, only their attack 'area's are considered hitboxes. The player's hitbox isn't just a box or sphere, but the actual 3D model. For example, if a boss does a horizontal swipe, it's actually possible to duck under the bosses's attack and not get hit. There's no duck mechanic in the game, but certain moves for various characters forces the animation to hug closer ot the ground than the standard standing animation, allowing short characters (yes, height actually matters) to use certain attacks to dodge moves that normaly would require the use of an invincibility frame dodge to evade.
Part of what Vindictus can do comes from the fact it is small instances and not open world.
One can just compare GW1 AI and full body block vs GW2.
Knock backs and deflections GW2 also has them. Guardian hammer #4 is always fun as is seeing people bouncing of a line or ring of warding.
In Vindictus, hit the enemy or hit the air, the animation is still the same as one can see from the videos you linked.
If one compares some of GW2 animations to Vindictus they are fairly similar. Vindictus seems to spend more time at the end of swing that GW2, but in GW2 some weapons, like hammer, can have long animation cycles.
Vindictus hit boxes are still boxes - you can't aim the head or the arms.
Yes, Vindictus can only do what it can do because it's instanced. GW2 not being able to do so is a limitation of the current internet infrastructure as well as server capabilities. I'm just pointing out what people are looking for when they think 'action combat'. Whether or not that's possible to replicate in a true MMORPG is another issue altogether.
It's not too noticeable from the videos, but there is roughly a 20% speed decrease when your attacks hit in Vindictus. It actually created the play style of hitting air with normal attacks before actually hitting the boss with the final 'smash' attacks in order to increase damage while reducing vulnerability.
The biggest difference in terms of animation of the attacks between Vindictus and GW2 is that Vindictus locks you into the animation when you choose to commit it. Once you attack you have to follow through, you can't change your direction once youv'e picked it and you can't move. This is pretty much how all console action and fighting games play, where there is a serious risk in leaving yourself open when attacking because you cannot block/evade until you finish your animation. In GW2 you can move around while using most attacks/skills and cancel into evade almost whenever. The two kinds of playstyles are completely different.
Lastly, in Vindictus there is separate hitboxes for different parts of monsters. This is mainly used for the game's breakoff mechanic where different parts can be damaged separately in order to get better item loots. Some of most difficult breakoffs were incredibly difficult to get, as often the boss would die before players could do enough damage to the breakoff part. Do due to the animation and hitbox of certain attacks, some characters are better able to get those breakoffs for some bosses.
There are also spears and hookshots in the game that can be aimed in first person. The spear itself follows a curved trajectory, making gauging the distance and predicting flight path an additional factor. One of the first raid bosses in the game had a breakoff as one of its eyes that you had to spear. It also had legs that required 2 players to aim and shoot chainhooks at in order to cripple it.
Comments
I self identify as a monkey.
Spoken like a true dungeoneer. Those of us who actually PvP and seek 1on1s or 2on2s or 5on5s would disagree with 99% of your post. So all I can say to you and the OP is learn to play I guess. Gw2 has many systems. Most of them can be tweaked to the liking of a casual person and the liking of a hardcore player, while both type of people enjoy the same game and the same gametype. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
Personally my dodge button is not the rotation, its the "OSHICRAP" button. If dodge is your rotation then I have some really really bad news for you.
I make a point of dismissing any post that has learn to play as its central argument.
[mod edit]
The simple fact that projectiles do not follow you around makes Gw2 more combat-ish than other MMOs some of you tend to compare it to. I can simply strafe against a ranged class and avoid most of the damage without ever dodging. It's how people solo certain dungeon bosses you know
Most of GW2s AI combat is not telegraphed, therefore, pressing "a" button like in WS is completely different. Dodging in GW2 is an integral part of the combat system and isn't just part of the rotation.
Decent video on the subject from the perspective of Warrior class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_G8J25cffw
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Hahah that first warrior trying to land eviscerate was terribad. Good for educational purposes though. Thumbs up!
I think some people just are clueless as to what 'action combat' actually is. And since it's largely a made-up term to begin with, it makes it annoying trying to provide an 'official' definition. There's been so many discussions on this, and by every basic criteria for what constitutes 'action combat' GW2 meets those requirements.
Things like telegraphs & such are mostly just icing. And serve to make the combat more/less engaging or challenging. You can have action combat with or without those things. Though having some sort of telegraph is usually needed to make the combat actually enjoyable (so you don't feel like you're dying to BS all the time).
- Btw really nice video. Does a good job explaining (in depth) some of the fundamental skills that separate the good PvPers from the bad. I see a lot of people who just kind of go through the motions (use a rotation), and they are extremely predictable. It's not hard to use that against them and end up whipping the floor w/ them repeatedly. It doesn't really cover when to prioritize certain moves over others (defensively), but it does get the point across. This is a skill-based game, which is one of the primary factors for having action combat.
I mostly agree with your post, just your last sentence makes me wonder a bit that "skill" doesn't determine whether a game is good or bad. I guess there is skill in WoW, once you've done all the gear treadmill bullshit and have equal armor/stats, there's some level of player skill involved as to which combos to trigger and take down your opponent faster. I wouldn't say WoW is an action game however. Same goes for SWTOR as well, its even more evident in there. Combat is rather static in a way that your position doesn't really matter and you can't dodge/step away from a projectiles since they're all like a homing missile, sometimes even hitting through obstacles like hugeass rocks and stuff xD
Gw2 on the hand takes all of the above into consideration and "fixes" it and still provides tab target combat for the people with worse reflexes. It really is a game that can be consumed by anyone. From the most casual to the most action-oriented hardcore players. This alone, IMO, makes it one of the best games on the market today. When people judge Gw2 they tend to forget all those facts. And plainly just turn blind eye to amazing set of systems that augment user experience. But that's a talk for another topic
Good post though!
Well you borrowed the "feedback from" someone that described the combat as "flailing around with impunity".
I have read many times people using the expression "hitting air" to describe certain games where they dislike the combat or that "they get no feedback when they hit".
Not many used this to describe GW2 but I have seen many applying it to a game that released between Tera and GW2 - TSW.
I felt TSW combat was clunky compared to GW2 and disliked some of the animations, especially the jump one, but I don't see how in TSW people feel like hitting air and in a game like WoW or GW2 they don't.
Also you can turn GW2 combat into combat Tera, and vice-versa, by adjusting some settings - in fact GW2 has attacks that you have to stop (and a bunch of those were actually reworked to not have to stop).
On the other hand a game like WoW would require quite a rework to have its combat match GW2 or Tera.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I would not call it action combat. It is definitely a hybrid in my opinion.
It is also one of the most disappointing aspects of GW2. My biggest problems are what many others have mentioned already. There is no feedback, nothing feels solid. Even the sounds make you feel like you are hitting nothing much. The other being that there is not much strategy to it at all, you basically roll around like a maniac auto-attacking until your cooldowns expire. Maybe I had my expectation too high but it was not what I thought it would be.
I remember seeing some videos before the game was released that made the combat seem better than it actually turned out to be on release. This is actually my problem in general with GW2. Many of the features seemed a whole lot better on paper before release.
Oh well, many still enjoy the game...good for them. I still jump in occasionally, but I usually get bored with it pretty quickly.
Yeah I feel you. From what you've described in terms of combat I suppose you are a free frag. If I have to auto attack to kill someone I'll kill myself.
If someone says that it feels they are hitting air, yeah I'll dismiss it.
If someone says that they don't like how the combat feel, it is their opinion and there is nothing to dismiss.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I think the statements saying 'GW2 has action combat' are definitely correct, because the combat is filled with actions. A typical fight includes multiple dodges, moving from danger zones, positioning (ie; flanking bonuses), and using weapon skills.
The weapon skills can reflect projectiles across a certain area, so placing it in the right place in the world is necessary (action!). There are weapon skills that grant you invulnerability for .5 to 2.5 seconds (or longer) so timing them right is important (action!). There are weapon skills that teleport you around (action!). Every class has examples of these.
GW2 is a highly mobile game. And in end game dungeon speed runs where the stacking method is used, it's all about timing dodges/invuls/reflects/etc perfectly or your stack fails and everyone dies. GW2 requires practice on timing and memorizing enemy tells to avoid damage.
It's full of action. Forget the usual action combat definition because as someone posted above, there isn't one. If you want action, GW2 has it. It is a very fast paced game for some classes.
If you don't think it's an action game, roll a thief, solo some champs with dagger/dagger, and come back to me.
edit: In terms of feedback, I agree with a lot of posters here. Feedback is definitely missing for some abilities, especially dodging. Even a soft "whoosh" sound for each successful evade would be cool.
Actually, 'hitting' air is something that some action games address. Vindictus is the ONLY online MMO-ish game that does address it though. When you actually slice an enemy, your attack speed actually slows down, which is part of what gives the 'feedback' of actually hitting an enemy. There's also the property of knockback that's built into many of the more powerful moves in Vindictus. Attacks that makes your character charge in a straight line will get diverted when you charge into a large enough enemy because you can't pass through it. Sound effects also have a lot to do with it the 'feel' of the combat.
When people complain about games not feeling actiony enough, they're generally comparing it to console action games like God of War or Bayonetta. The only online game that comes close to replicating that feel is Vindictus. Even TERA is pretty much lacking when it comes to action mechanics compared to Vindictus.
Here are a few videos that hopefully demonstrate what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JQBT6Coxvqw#t=152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0qmeE6s9O8A#t=7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX5a5fi7Phc
The reason why Vindictus is a step above every other combat MMO is because its hit boxes are actually precise. When bosses attack, only their attack 'area's are considered hitboxes. The player's hitbox isn't just a box or sphere, but the actual 3D model. For example, if a boss does a horizontal swipe, it's actually possible to duck under the bosses's attack and not get hit. There's no duck mechanic in the game, but certain moves for various characters forces the animation to hug closer ot the ground than the standard standing animation, allowing short characters (yes, height actually matters) to use certain attacks to dodge moves that normaly would require the use of an invincibility frame dodge to evade.
Part of what Vindictus can do comes from the fact it is small instances and not open world.
One can just compare GW1 AI and full body block vs GW2.
Knock backs and deflections GW2 also has them. Guardian hammer #4 is always fun as is seeing people bouncing of a line or ring of warding.
In Vindictus, hit the enemy or hit the air, the animation is still the same as one can see from the videos you linked.
If one compares some of GW2 animations to Vindictus they are fairly similar. Vindictus seems to spend more time at the end of swing that GW2, but in GW2 some weapons, like hammer, can have long animation cycles.
Vindictus hit boxes are still boxes - you can't aim the head or the arms.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I think somewhere in-between.
MMOAG <---------------------MMOARPG------------GW2-----------------------MMORPG>
Great vid I ran across while back explaining combat models in mmos mentioned, creds to acolyterush
What Does 'Action Combat' Mean'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc
Excellent video. It very much explains what I had on mind and why after playing TERA, GW2 just won't cut it for me.
Also, it is a great reminder how difficult MMO development is, those things just won't happen, there is lots of thoughts, decisions and compromises behind something seemingly so commonplace as combat.
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Yes, Vindictus can only do what it can do because it's instanced. GW2 not being able to do so is a limitation of the current internet infrastructure as well as server capabilities. I'm just pointing out what people are looking for when they think 'action combat'. Whether or not that's possible to replicate in a true MMORPG is another issue altogether.
It's not too noticeable from the videos, but there is roughly a 20% speed decrease when your attacks hit in Vindictus. It actually created the play style of hitting air with normal attacks before actually hitting the boss with the final 'smash' attacks in order to increase damage while reducing vulnerability.
The biggest difference in terms of animation of the attacks between Vindictus and GW2 is that Vindictus locks you into the animation when you choose to commit it. Once you attack you have to follow through, you can't change your direction once youv'e picked it and you can't move. This is pretty much how all console action and fighting games play, where there is a serious risk in leaving yourself open when attacking because you cannot block/evade until you finish your animation. In GW2 you can move around while using most attacks/skills and cancel into evade almost whenever. The two kinds of playstyles are completely different.
Lastly, in Vindictus there is separate hitboxes for different parts of monsters. This is mainly used for the game's breakoff mechanic where different parts can be damaged separately in order to get better item loots. Some of most difficult breakoffs were incredibly difficult to get, as often the boss would die before players could do enough damage to the breakoff part. Do due to the animation and hitbox of certain attacks, some characters are better able to get those breakoffs for some bosses.
There are also spears and hookshots in the game that can be aimed in first person. The spear itself follows a curved trajectory, making gauging the distance and predicting flight path an additional factor. One of the first raid bosses in the game had a breakoff as one of its eyes that you had to spear. It also had legs that required 2 players to aim and shoot chainhooks at in order to cripple it.
Yeah, GW2 is not a beat'em up game.
But Action Combat isn't simply beat'em up combat.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders