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I hope EQN takes a page from UO and Darkfalls book.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    I really hope EQN has a real crafting based economy, supported by either Full Loot and/or Severe Item Decay. I want to slay a dragon with my guild, then skin it and use the hide, scales, and bones to make gear sets. I want those gear sets to eventually filter out of the game so I have a reason to slay another dragon. I don't want a perpetual treadmill of increasingly powerful items that constantly marginalize the usefullness of older content. I don't want gearflation, and constant expansions of +5 levels that makes the older zones empty of players.. I really hope they follow through and make this a sandbox game in the vein of Ultima Online and Darkfall.

     

    How did I know this would have something about free looting... EQN shouldn't repeat the FAILURES of the past.

     

    There are very few indicators that EQN is going to do anything like this globally.  Actually, there is probably a zero percent change they would do this globally.  They certainly could do it using a server with a different rule set though.  If they did, people would have a choice of whether or not to play on Full Loot servers.  Choice is generally a good thing.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    I really hope EQN has a real crafting based economy, supported by either Full Loot and/or Severe Item Decay. I want to slay a dragon with my guild, then skin it and use the hide, scales, and bones to make gear sets. I want those gear sets to eventually filter out of the game so I have a reason to slay another dragon. I don't want a perpetual treadmill of increasingly powerful items that constantly marginalize the usefullness of older content. I don't want gearflation, and constant expansions of +5 levels that makes the older zones empty of players.. I really hope they follow through and make this a sandbox game in the vein of Ultima Online and Darkfall.

     

    How did I know this would have something about free looting... EQN shouldn't repeat the FAILURES of the past.

     

    There are very few indicators that EQN is going to do anything like this globally.  Actually, there is probably a zero percent change they would do this globally.  They certainly could do it using a server with a different rule set though.  If they did, people would have a choice of whether or not to play on Full Loot servers.  Choice is generally a good thing.

     

    Agreed and I beleive that EQ2 is still "partial loot", where there is a chance when a person dies to drop a piece of worn loot, along with coin.

  • asdarasdar Member UncommonPosts: 662

    Darkfall did a lot of things right. I drift back an forth between PvE and PvP so I'll try a new game that features one or the other and played Darkfall for a year and a bit.

    The combat was really fun. I didn't like the melee it seemed like hopping sprinting and spinning and too frantic for me to enjoy, but the ranged combat was awesome, pure awesome. The perfect way the arrows arc'd and the cast spells flew straight made for some pure joy in game play. I don't think there's any way they'll have a system for ranged as good as DF.

    I liked the one world feel, and the natural way this area led to that area. I can't name a single game that just feels open the same way DF did. People say Archeage does, but to me it's just a slightly wider canyon that goes from one zone to another. EQ had square zones mostly but I felt like within that square they were open. To me DF and EQ felt the same there.

    The Crafting in DF might have been simple, but it was vital to the game. I can't figure out the 'right' way to do crafting in a game. EQ certainly didn't have it, except that I like some of the quests that went with it.

    I think the biggest thing I don't want from DF is the forum posters. They were always so violent and bitter. If I had to pick one thing from the original EQ that I miss it's the feeling of friendliness that pervaded the forums and chat in that game right up to the Luclin expansion.

    Asdar

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 454
    Originally posted by asdar

    Darkfall did a lot of things right. I drift back an forth between PvE and PvP so I'll try a new game that features one or the other and played Darkfall for a year and a bit.

    The combat was really fun. I didn't like the melee it seemed like hopping sprinting and spinning and too frantic for me to enjoy, but the ranged combat was awesome, pure awesome. The perfect way the arrows arc'd and the cast spells flew straight made for some pure joy in game play. I don't think there's any way they'll have a system for ranged as good as DF.

    I liked the one world feel, and the natural way this area led to that area. I can't name a single game that just feels open the same way DF did. People say Archeage does, but to me it's just a slightly wider canyon that goes from one zone to another. EQ had square zones mostly but I felt like within that square they were open. To me DF and EQ felt the same there.

    The Crafting in DF might have been simple, but it was vital to the game. I can't figure out the 'right' way to do crafting in a game. EQ certainly didn't have it, except that I like some of the quests that went with it.

    I think the biggest thing I don't want from DF is the forum posters. They were always so violent and bitter. If I had to pick one thing from the original EQ that I miss it's the feeling of friendliness that pervaded the forums and chat in that game right up to the Luclin expansion.

    Dfo(not unholy wars) got so much right, but failed in a lot of other aspects. I would still be playing Darkfall online if AV didn't shut it down. Unholy wars removed even more great aspects of the game and in my opinion ruined the game.

    THE GOOD

    ---------------

    -Mounts that are killable/steal able

    -Magic/Range combat was very precise and felt rewarding

    -Full loot

    -Great drop and drag inventory system(Completely horrible in UW)

    -Crafted items are the best in game

    -Boats, Warhulk, and mounted battles

    -Territory control and player housing

    - Great utility spells that weren't instant wins(Although mostly for magic)

    -Great risk vs reward

    -Racial alliances and alignment system was good(Needed rewards for helping your faction), but was removed in Unholy wars

    -Great aiming reticle,pretty much pefect(ruined in UW)

    ____________

    The Bad

    ---------------

    -Unbalanced classes(Was fixed towards the end) with magic being almost necessary

    -Early on it was very zergy with 1000s vs 1000s battles where a smaller guild couldn't survive

    -Player load whenever someone is nearby, and dungeon log teleporting

    -HUGE GRIND(Was lessened towards the end) 

    -No skill cap which means everyone has every spell and ability in the game resulting in a lot of cookie cutter builds.

    -Not enough advantages to expanding your territory control(Being worked on in Unholy wars

    -Not enough sandbox features and other content other than Pvp(Treasure hunting was in the right direction)

    -Absolutely horrible AI and Pve combat that would spawn whenever you get near it.

    -Everything in the game revolves around pvp(and I am a huge pvp fan) with nothing but horrible crafting or pve in its stead

    -Crafting while good in the sense it controlled the economy, was horribly grindy and bland. Not to mention everyone could max it out. Needed a separate skill cap.

    _________________________

    There are probably more pros and cons, but I can't think of them at the moment. Anyways those who don't like full loot, are the ones who like to be cuddled and never have the feeling like they could lose and as someone else pointed out repair costs for gear in other games is just like full loot. DFO could have been so much better if AV fixed it, but atlas they made that shit game Unholy wars instead.

    MurderHerd

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,305


    Originally posted by Lustmord


    Why is it wrong to ask for a true crafting based economy in a sandbox game, supported by a big budget studio like SOE?

     


    not wrong to ask but lets be realistic here. having a system like that would alienate even more of their fans that they have already done a good job alienating, as well as the vast majority of potential customers.

    there is a reason why full loot ffa pvp mmo's are not popular, because it opens all sorts of doors for griefing.

    not only that but it also forces you to join gank squads to combat the other gank squads, rather than play how you want.

    heck, a lot of people don't like forced pvp of any kind, let alone full looting ffa pvp.

    i guess if there was a designated area for it and not the entire world, or possibly a designated server, then it could work.

    soe wants to have a highly successful and profitable game, they are not going to just cater to a small niche audience and alienate the vast majority of their potential customers.

    if they do they are committing financial suicide.

  • asdarasdar Member UncommonPosts: 662


    Originally posted by baphamet
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    Why is it wrong to ask for a true crafting based economy in a sandbox game, supported by a big budget studio like SOE? 

    not wrong to ask but lets be realistic here. having a system like that would alienate even more of their fans that they have already done a good job alienating, as well as the vast majority of potential customers.

    there is a reason why full loot ffa pvp mmo's are not popular, because it opens all sorts of doors for griefing.

    not only that but it also forces you to join gank squads to combat the other gank squads, rather than play how you want.

    heck, a lot of people don't like forced pvp of any kind, let alone full looting ffa pvp.

    i guess if there was a designated area for it and not the entire world, or possibly a designated server, then it could work.

    soe wants to have a highly successful and profitable game, they are not going to just cater to a small niche audience and alienate the vast majority of their potential customers.

    if they do they are committing financial suicide.


    I don't think that sandbox equals full Loot PvP, but I don't want to get into a definition of sandbox discussion.

    I don't want PvP at all, or maybe let there be PvP servers like EQ had.

    I do think both UO and DF had points that were good, but I don't want the PvP.

    Asdar

  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,282

    The chance of EQN being a full loot game is practically zero. Different rule set servers, ok maybe, but as staple of the core game design, no.

    Actually, the way that classes, gear and skills work in EQN could make for a very lively economy. Especially since gear will be about boosting specific skills and not about statistical gains. I would imagine finding the perfect match of gear to best suit your particular chosen skill set could be difficult. 

    If anything, full loot is the "easy way out" in terms of generating a crafting economy. There are other ways of helping these economies grow to fruition without alienating the majority of a potential playerbase.

  • ElmberryElmberry Member UncommonPosts: 195

    I think SOE will take a huge risk if they go for full loot. I think instead they wants to sell lots of games, keep their subscribers happy and not by letting their customers being ganked and robbed all the time so they loose interrest of their game which has cost SOE lots of money already. SOE will not be so stupid, that they will do a niche game... or maybe they are!?

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,921
    Why would any mmo take anything from a game like Darkfall?
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687


    Originally posted by LustmordUO has been around for 17 years and still has a healthy population, despite all the competition on the market.Darkfall is the best MMO available on the market today. It hasn't failed yet, it maintains a strong community of hardcore fans.The only thing "lame", is the community of carebears that ask for dumbed down ez-mode MMO's with no risks or penalties, and they wonder why they get bored and unsub 2 months after launch.

    Erm...do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

    Here is a little hint: There is no way the revenue of current UO+DF to ever pay off for development budget of EQN.

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,125
    I doubt Smedley will follow a failed game like Darkfall. Why would any game developer follow that game ?

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509
    Originally posted by kitarad
    I doubt Smedley will follow a failed game like Darkfall. Why would any game developer follow that game ?

    Why does everyone repeat that Darkfall is a failed game? It is still live, still with a subscription and there was even a successor. How many games can say the same? Yeap.. it is niche, and yeap it is for a more hardcore following.

    And for the one commenting it is just running because of the developers rich dad.. well that would be Mortal Online and not Darkfall. ;)

    However.. with the history of SOE and the F2P main stream appeal they have to go with they will not make EQN in its entireness very complex nor very hardcore, and in no way both.

    So the best pvp fans could hope would be different ruleset servers, which are a lot more than just a pvp flag. However i actually doubt that this will be the case, too. They would need to invest serious time for all the different rulesets, invest time and money to marketing/advertising them correctly and all that stuff.

    With that said.. i am afraid that EQN will be the typical modern main stream game with a huge casual appeal.. with other words not very complex, but rather simpilistic, with no or almost no penality for whatsoever.

    Maybe i will be surprised and EQN will get more deepness, will get more specialized ruleset servers, like hardcore pve servers with real penality, like territory control pvp servers with full loot and stuff, and all the different subsets, which are popular and do have a strong, but mostly hardcore and small following. But.. i doubt it.

    Nevertheless.. as i said already often in different EQN threads, you have to applaud SOE that they actually tried technology wise something new, and do actually evolve withit the genre. Maybe SOE is not capable(because of mass appeal) to make out of those technology more complex and more hardcore systems, but other will pick that stuff up in the future and will deliver a more defined, more complex and more hardcore experience for a niche playerbase. The advanced Voxel Engine, the Storybrick emergent AI are big steps forward to be able to create more immersive, more dynamic virtual worlds or mmos in general.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,411
    I thought Darkfall UW was pretty crap- terrible UI, combat was lacklustre, animations clunky and floaty, afk farming for mats a game feature; the only thing I really liked about it was the music and atmosphere.
    ....
  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    They are not doing anything you describe to the game.

    Its already been confirmed that they will not do systems that "Deny Service" of potential customers.

    Like having a very dark night where people need torches to see.

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  • winterwinter Member UncommonPosts: 2,281
    Originally posted by NagilumSadow
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    [...] I don't want a perpetual treadmill of increasingly powerful items that constantly marginalize the usefullness of older content. I don't want gearflation, and constant expansions of +5 levels that makes the older zones empty of players.. I really hope they follow through and make this a sandbox game in the vein of Ultima Online and Darkfall.

     

    Well said. I fully agree on most every point. Darkfall is an astonishingly good mmo, it just needs a little more sand in the sandbox. I liked UO when is was first released, but didn't have time to play back then. Both of these mmos have their own very unique player history that cannot be overlooked, which is something I hope EQN nurtures.

    So you don't want to grind for new gear you want grind for the same old gear again and again after it wears down or is ganked from you again and again.?  Your not removing the gear grind your just making it static so everyone will have the exact same gear after awhile with no new gear ever added as new things according to you and the OP are bad? Does anyone even think this logic through? 

  • winterwinter Member UncommonPosts: 2,281
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    Originally posted by nennafir
    Interesting.  I hope it regards UO as an old game that succeeded because it didn't have much competition and Darkfall as a game that failed because it was lame.

    UO has been around for 17 years and still has a healthy population, despite all the competition on the market.

    Darkfall is the best MMO available on the market today. It hasn't failed yet, it maintains a strong community of hardcore fans.

    The only thing "lame", is the community of carebears that ask for dumbed down ez-mode MMO's with no risks or penalties, and they wonder why they get bored and unsub 2 months after launch.

     Best MMO as compared to what? Most people I know to include previous darkfall players do not think very highly of it. YMMV but to say its the best because you play yet your hoping another game comes out like it so you can play it instead doesn't hold much weight.

     In this message you complain carebears are lame because supposibly they don't want a challenge yet in your OP you state you want to be able get max level ands max gear and then never have any new levels or gear added as you basically don't want the challenge of having to level or gear quest anything new ever again. static same old same generally gets pretty boring in my opinion, and its not like everyone else wont eventually get the max level and same gear as you in a game that never grows.

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by NagilumSadow
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    [...] I don't want a perpetual treadmill of increasingly powerful items that constantly marginalize the usefullness of older content. I don't want gearflation, and constant expansions of +5 levels that makes the older zones empty of players.. I really hope they follow through and make this a sandbox game in the vein of Ultima Online and Darkfall.

     

    Well said. I fully agree on most every point. Darkfall is an astonishingly good mmo, it just needs a little more sand in the sandbox. I liked UO when is was first released, but didn't have time to play back then. Both of these mmos have their own very unique player history that cannot be overlooked, which is something I hope EQN nurtures.

    So you don't want to grind for new gear you want grind for the same old gear again and again after it wears down or is ganked from you again and again.?  Your not removing the gear grind your just making it static so everyone will have the exact same gear after awhile with no new gear ever added as new things according to you and the OP are bad? Does anyone even think this logic through? 

    You are a smart one, right? Did you go this logic through? Does not look like it.

    You can have new gear, so much as you like.. that is not the problem.. the problem is that your gear does always have better stats and makes old gear, and old content obsolte. And the best part.. in comparsion to your surrounding(content, other players) it is still the same gear stat wise.. just everyone was scaled up.

    So you do think that it is good to bring in new level and gear with higher stats every year to make all the rest of your content obsolete, without chaging in the overall picture nothing at all? Did you think this logic through?

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687


    Originally posted by Apraxis

    So you do think that it is good to bring in new level and gear with higher stats every year to make all the rest of your content obsolete, without chaging in the overall picture nothing at all?

    MMOs are not an exercise n logic, they are entertainment and here lies the issue - people like new shiny and sense of progression towards a power scale, despite how inefficient it is production and development wise.

    You can try to provide some alternative but the chances are, you are likely going to burn yourself.


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687


    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Why does everyone repeat that Darkfall is a failed game? It is still live

    Becase DF is a failed game. It is not alive, it was shut down.

  • LorgarnLorgarn Member UncommonPosts: 417

    I'm even skeptical about EQN having just a standard open world PvP ruleset available, while you're talking of 'Full loot' and things of similar nature?

     

    Don't mistake this for my personal preference on the matter; EQN and 'Full loot' will never happen. I'll be very surprised, and happily so mind you, if they even have open world PvP available. I'm however suspecting a much more casual and consensual PvP in EQN.

  • collektcollekt Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    Originally posted by nennafir
    Interesting.  I hope it regards UO as an old game that succeeded because it didn't have much competition and Darkfall as a game that failed because it was lame.

    UO has been around for 17 years and still has a healthy population, despite all the competition on the market.

    Darkfall is the best MMO available on the market today. It hasn't failed yet, it maintains a strong community of hardcore fans.

    The only thing "lame", is the community of carebears that ask for dumbed down ez-mode MMO's with no risks or penalties, and they wonder why they get bored and unsub 2 months after launch.

     Best MMO as compared to what? Most people I know to include previous darkfall players do not think very highly of it. YMMV but to say its the best because you play yet your hoping another game comes out like it so you can play it instead doesn't hold much weight.

     In this message you complain carebears are lame because supposibly they don't want a challenge yet in your OP you state you want to be able get max level ands max gear and then never have any new levels or gear added as you basically don't want the challenge of having to level or gear quest anything new ever again. static same old same generally gets pretty boring in my opinion, and its not like everyone else wont eventually get the max level and same gear as you in a game that never grows.

    You need to understand that in general, PvE things like leveling or questing are not challenging to decent gamers. Just because they require more time does not make them more challenging. I'm a PvPer first and foremost, but I can respect that some people prefer PvE.. and I can also understand that there can be challenging aspects of PvE such as raids. However, raising the max level or having to get to max level are NOT what I'd consider challenging. It's just an easy time sink. PvP is where the real challenge is, having to outwit and outplay a real human player as opposed to predictable AI.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,830
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Lustmord
    Originally posted by nennafir
    Interesting.  I hope it regards UO as an old game that succeeded because it didn't have much competition and Darkfall as a game that failed because it was lame.

    UO has been around for 17 years and still has a healthy population, despite all the competition on the market.

    Darkfall is the best MMO available on the market today. It hasn't failed yet, it maintains a strong community of hardcore fans.

    The only thing "lame", is the community of carebears that ask for dumbed down ez-mode MMO's with no risks or penalties, and they wonder why they get bored and unsub 2 months after launch.

     Best MMO as compared to what? Most people I know to include previous darkfall players do not think very highly of it. YMMV but to say its the best because you play yet your hoping another game comes out like it so you can play it instead doesn't hold much weight.

     In this message you complain carebears are lame because supposibly they don't want a challenge yet in your OP you state you want to be able get max level ands max gear and then never have any new levels or gear added as you basically don't want the challenge of having to level or gear quest anything new ever again. static same old same generally gets pretty boring in my opinion, and its not like everyone else wont eventually get the max level and same gear as you in a game that never grows.

    You need to understand that in general, PvE things like leveling or questing are not challenging to decent gamers. Just because they require more time does not make them more challenging. I'm a PvPer first and foremost, but I can respect that some people prefer PvE.. and I can also understand that there can be challenging aspects of PvE such as raids. However, raising the max level or having to get to max level are NOT what I'd consider challenging. It's just an easy time sink. PvP is where the real challenge is, having to outwit and outplay a real human player as opposed to predictable AI.

    Except just like PvE, PvP has rotations, and after a while it becomes really easy to know what your opponent is going to do next.  At least with PvE content that changes, very little ever changes in PvP.

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