Are MMOs with Aim based combat Limited when it comes to making unique playable race models due to hi

MMOExposed

Are MMOs with Aim based combat Limited when it comes to making unique playable race models due to hitbox balance?

Thats my question.

 

I remember a while ago, when Darkfall 2 was in the news, and the subject at hand, was that the developers were making the race's hitbox and body frame identical to one another due to balance.

This way, smaller races dont get an advantage in combat since they would be harder to hit.

 

Well if this is truly the case, then that would mean that aim based combat systems like that really do limit the creative freedoms of making unique races to play as in the game.

 

Cant have Asura from GW2, or Gnomes from WoW, and the Dwarfs from WoW, because they would have an advantage over the Orcs in WoW, Norn in GW2, and the Humans in both, if these games were fully aim based like that.

 

But maybe there was ways around this. If so what are they?

sacredfool

That:

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/14/guild-wars-2-will-let-you-replace-pvp-opponents-with-standardize/

Shaigh

No its not.

Kuviski

They shouldn't be. RPGs are not competitive games, even if they include some abstract form of competition. Darkfall: Unholy Wars' choice of standardizing all races was bad and made the game feel even more like a giant battle arena to me, as all the races looked identical to one another, except for their textures.

Because the main point of RPGs by nature is not to solely act as a competitive platform, complete balance is not in my opinion necessary. But if you really want to balance hitbox differences, you could do it by excluding specializations from some races or granting attribute bonuses to others. Rather do that than make all character models the same for sure.

zzax

Originally posted by Shaigh

This is perfect example of the game where everyone plays one race (the smallest one).

On Topic: Yes, there is two possible solutions:

- Gender-locked and Race-locked classes (balanced accordingly with racials and passives)

- keep everyone same (everyone human-like)

Kuuhn

Tera is a great example of a game with different sized hit boxes. People argue til they are blue in the face that it makes a tremendous difference. Everyone will tell you that a certain specific race is required to play competitively.. but I simply don't agree. While a tiny difference it may make, its never a game play altering difference despite what some may say.

Apraxis

If it is actually a true aim based game, like Tera, DF:UW or Planetside, then it matters. However as already said, you could balance it with racial abilities/passives to counter a smaller size. Nevertheless all of the use 1 hitbox, and that can be slightly bigger than the actual character.

However.. for most games with not so true aim based combat, like ESO or most other MMOs for that matter, the actual hitbox is by far larger than the actual character, with that said the hitbox of a huge or a tiny character can be exactly the same, and are in a lot of cases. And then it matters not.

Bottomline.. as more hitboxes you do have and as more precisely they are, they more it matters and you have to count size in your balance calculation(like give extra benefits to huge races). But both is uncommon in MMOs.

And by the way.. if we talk about something like that in a MMO. Latency matters more. 50ms Latency vs. 150ms Latency does have more impact as character size... with that said.. character size does not really matter much in MMOs.

YashaX

The size of a character gives an advantage in all pvp games, even tab targeting ones. The advantage is exacerbated if the game has no or limited cast bars (like in GW2) since you have to watch the animation to see what is being cast and the animation is usually easier to define on larger models.

 

Pure action mmos take the issue a step further still  because obviously it is harder to hit a smaller character. This would be balanced out if the reach of smaller characters was also smaller, but in Tera's case Elin actually has the longest reach and smallest hitbox, while in GW2 the effects of Asura skills are actually larger than they appear in the animations.

 

Another interesting thing with different sized characters is body blocking- I think we had that in tera. A larger sized tank could more effectively prevent mobs from getting past.

 

Many mmos seem to use different sized races, but seem loath to give a semi realistic reflection of size in the game's mechanics. I think the main issue is not whether the mmo has aim based combat, but whether it wants to be a competitive pvp type of game or just a pve fantasy romp.

Rydeson

     Good point OP and observation..  I never played those games so I"m unaware of the "box" balancing..  The thing I find ironic is that many of the advocates that promote "twitch" target combat normally say that "tab" targeting is cheating and not skillful..  Well.. ummm couldn't that be said about box balancing too..  It's just another form of equalizing a disadvantage in a way.. LOL   Cheating is cheating, no matter how you cut it..  

thinktank001

Originally posted by MMOExposed

But maybe there was ways around this. If so what are they?

 

As another poster pointed out, the only way to solve the problem is by implementing real drawbacks to having stature.  

 

i.e. shorter reach, smaller mass, etc.     

mmoguy43

Actiony MMOs that have aiming don't calculate hits based on character model size. All targetable characters would have the same sized target area. If not its just bad design...

Loktofeit

Originally posted by mmoguy43

Actiony MMOs that have aiming don't calculate hits based on character model size. All targetable characters would have the same sized target area. If not its just bad design...

This ---^

zzax

Originally posted by mmoguy43

Actiony MMOs that have aiming don't calculate hits based on character model size. All targetable characters would have the same sized target area. If not its just bad design...

Tiny character models are still huge advantage. You obviously havent played many multiplayer games if you think otherwise. I suggest you downloading Quake Live (or similar game with normalized hitboxes) and playing as Tank (huge model).

 

Loktofeit

Originally posted by zzax

Originally posted by mmoguy43

Actiony MMOs that have aiming don't calculate hits based on character model size. All targetable characters would have the same sized target area. If not its just bad design...

Tiny character models are still huge advantage. You obviously havent played many multiplayer games if you think otherwise. I suggest you downloading Quake Live (or similar game with normalized hitboxes) and playing as Tank (huge model).

 

In PVP, that can make a difference, especially if terrain makes for viable cover or defense. In PvE, those issues are usually negated or of no consequence as AI is designed with that in mind. 

Quizzical

Graphics and physics are two completely independent things in the internal code of a game.  They often differ by enough to be visible, and sometimes are wildly different.

In the case of hitboxes, no matter what a character looks like, for damage or collision detection purposes, the character is probably a box, cylinder, or sphere.  It's easy to give every single race exactly the same size of hitbox.  If some races are much larger than others, it can make some of the hitboxes feel wrong, but it won't break play balance.

MMOExposed

Originally posted by Quizzical

Graphics and physics are two completely independent things in the internal code of a game.  They often differ by enough to be visible, and sometimes are wildly different.

In the case of hitboxes, no matter what a character looks like, for damage or collision detection purposes, the character is probably a box, cylinder, or sphere.  It's easy to give every single race exactly the same size of hitbox.  If some races are much larger than others, it can make some of the hitboxes feel wrong, but it won't break play balance.

how so. Because that seem like a contradiction

Anireth

Some games actually set reach and speed depending on model size.

One way or the other, it's just another stat. It can be balanced if it's needed, like anything else. If it's tied to race or lcass even more so - other races and classes would not be affected after all. Imagine everyone, across class and race could choose between 0.5 and 5 meter size.

Depending oh the game, colours and texture might actually be more important for PVP, too.

Loktofeit

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Quizzical

Graphics and physics are two completely independent things in the internal code of a game.  They often differ by enough to be visible, and sometimes are wildly different.

In the case of hitboxes, no matter what a character looks like, for damage or collision detection purposes, the character is probably a box, cylinder, or sphere.  It's easy to give every single race exactly the same size of hitbox.  If some races are much larger than others, it can make some of the hitboxes feel wrong, but it won't break play balance.

how so. Because that seem like a contradiction

Not really. Hitboxes are often, as Quiz said, a box, cylinder or sphere overlaid over the character. It is rare that the hitbox is framed to the character because that puts significantly more demands on the hardware for collision detection. You may have several hitboxes per object, too. 

Quizzical

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Quizzical

Graphics and physics are two completely independent things in the internal code of a game.  They often differ by enough to be visible, and sometimes are wildly different.

In the case of hitboxes, no matter what a character looks like, for damage or collision detection purposes, the character is probably a box, cylinder, or sphere.  It's easy to give every single race exactly the same size of hitbox.  If some races are much larger than others, it can make some of the hitboxes feel wrong, but it won't break play balance.

how so. Because that seem like a contradiction

It's easy to make all hitboxes the same size and shape in the same sense that it's easy to make the top quarter of the game window always be solid black:  if you decide that's what you want to do, it's easy to code up.  That doesn't automatically make it a sensible thing to do.

Ergload

Im of the opinion that races absolutely should have their own hitboxes to reflect their size. Smaller chars should be harder to hit, but have some type of penalty for being small. Larger chars should be easier to hit, but be tankier or hit harder.

Quirhid

People choose smaller characters in PvP even in games without aiming.

PioneerStew

This has probably been mentioned but why not just make smaller hit boxes take more damage?  

Caldrin

No its not limited at all..

I see you mentioned Darkfall..The original when it came to race hitboxes was broke like many other parts of it but with DF:UW well AV were just too lazy to do the character models and hit boxes correctly so instead made everyone a human with different skins and then made up some junk law about humans mating with dwarfs and the other races evolving into humans with different skins.

MMO with aim based combat can work fine with different race sizes but then they have to look at balance as well.. Shorter races would have a bit of an advantage as they would be easier to hit, so maybe making them a bit slower wolud counter that a bit after all they have shorter legs.

So yeah you can have it but its more work to balance the races out.

 

mmoguy43

Originally posted by Ergload
Im of the opinion that races absolutely should have their own hitboxes to reflect their size. Smaller chars should be harder to hit, but have some type of penalty for being small. Larger chars should be easier to hit, but be tankier or hit harder.

Still, there is no reason to do it that way. You can easily do this with stats and it wouldn't permanently break the balance and require extra 3d/animation work.

Quizzical

Originally posted by Quirhid
People choose smaller characters in PvP even in games without aiming.

Smaller characters are an advantage in a lot of games because they block less of your screen, and thereby let you have a better view of the game world.

Quirhid

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Quirhid
People choose smaller characters in PvP even in games without aiming.

Smaller characters are an advantage in a lot of games because they block less of your screen, and thereby let you have a better view of the game world.

That and they are a smaller target to select by clicking, harder to spot and easier to hide behind rocks etc.