Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
The game has been made easier every year for the last 9 years you would have to be insane to think they would reverse flow now.
And what would be the incentive if they did?
Cata showed that they would piss of the larger, more profitable section of customers by going back to "Hard mode" dungeons and thus they quickly resumed the easy mode flow.
I totally agree. Anyone who did wotlk already noticed that people stepped out of challenging dungeons. Every time you got oculus or HOR during end of wotlk people jumped out of the group and would rather have a 15 minute lfg-debuff to get an easier daily dungeon next time.
The only people that benefited from cataclysm dungeons were the ones in proper guilds or had a longer friends list, but it wasn't particularly pug-friendly.
I don't know about HoR, but people didn't want to run Oculus because of that stupid 'bird combat' part at the end of it. In fact, that applies to all 'vehicle combat' that was introduced in WotLK; you were taken out of your character and put to another one, which didn't benefit any of your gear, buffs or skills. How fun is that? This was supposed to be an RPG.
And the dungeons not being pug-friendly.. We can only blame random dungeon finder and how it was executed. The range of levels able to queue for dungeons was too big, along with the fact that healing was undertuned (that's what i've heard) at the beginning of Cata.
Dungeons were too easy even in WotLK, and they became a joke in Cata and later on. Experienced casual like myself did quit because the game became too easy, and the remaining playerbase couldn't handle 'normal' difficulty.
Originally posted by waveslayer with the stat squish and class changes(further dumbing down) the game almost plays itself now, add in the character model upgrades , it almost seems like a different game, so no, other then the higher tier raiding and PvP it will not be more challenging, it will be even less.
My holy paladin on the PTR has the same amount of health as it did in WotLK, and still has more skills than it had in WotLK...you sir, have no idea what you are talking about lol.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
The game has been made easier every year for the last 9 years you would have to be insane to think they would reverse flow now.
And what would be the incentive if they did?
Cata showed that they would piss of the larger, more profitable section of customers by going back to "Hard mode" dungeons and thus they quickly resumed the easy mode flow.
You guys should really research your nonsense before commenting...
The heoric 5 mans in WoD are going back to Cata level, and they are adding "normal" level 100 versions for each that will be essentially on par with WotLK/MoP heroics. The "normal" dungeons will be used to gear for LFR, and the "heroic" dungoens will be used to gear for normal/heroic raids.
They, yet again, are adding more options for everyone to choose from, ranigng from hard to easy....a good thing for everybody, wouldn't you agree?
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
The game has been made easier every year for the last 9 years you would have to be insane to think they would reverse flow now.
And what would be the incentive if they did?
Cata showed that they would piss of the larger, more profitable section of customers by going back to "Hard mode" dungeons and thus they quickly resumed the easy mode flow.
You guys should really research your nonsense before commenting...
The heoric 5 mans in WoD are going back to Cata level, and they are adding "normal" level 100 versions for each that will be essentially on par with WotLK/MoP heroics. The "normal" dungeons will be used to gear for LFR, and the "heroic" dungoens will be used to gear for normal/heroic raids.
They, yet again, are adding more options for everyone to choose from, ranigng from hard to easy....a good thing for everybody, wouldn't you agree?
Yes, sir, yes I would.
This is actually where I see Wildstar as having failed. WoW is constantly expanding to suit a wider user base. LFR is like a god-send for me ever since my guildies buggered off and I'm essentially a filthy casual now. However, I have friends who are still doing heroics. So there is a huge gap that needs to be covered and they've done an excellent job in patching that. Since Raids are a barrier to the end of the story, everyone should have a chance to experience that.
If you read the beta forums, you will see that WoD is much more difficult that MoP, At least in the 5 man dungeons anyway. So it should be more difficult. Of course tons of people are complaining about it being too hard, so we will see if they nerf it
Originally posted by evilized No. Want proof? Look at how well Wildstar is doing because of it being "challenging." Blizz won't do something that will lose them money, even if it makes the game more fun.
I think WS problem is more the focus on raiding... Content should challenge but not overwhelm the players and while the noob areas should be easy the difficulty should increase as you learn to play.
In fact Wow originally had something like that, and that was actually part of what made it so big.
Originally posted by OhhPaigey No, if you choose to quest to 100, and LFR.
And no, if you choose to do mythics (heroics) because most people haven't even cleared heroic SoO even after they gave an ilevel boost.
All they have changed recently is that they have made it easier for new players to understand & learn the game.
No "challenge" has been taken out of the game.
Same tried argument again and again.
90% of the game has had passes which reduced complexity, strategy and difficulty.
The remaining 10% content (raids ect) does not represent the whole game, Does not represent the games difficulty adequately and only caters to a small minority of players.
Maybe it's the same argument because it's true.
Can you name some patches that made 90% of the game easier?
It doesn't matter what percent of the game has hard content, that doesn't even make sense, the reason it caters to a small group of players is because 99% of the players who play WoW aren't able to do it.
Btw, it's funny you think just because questing and LFR isn't hard that it makes the game easier, none of that is end game, and leveling shouldn't be hard like raiding is, so what is your point?
You should see how many people spend hundreds of dollars for challenge mode clears because they can't do it, or even normal/heroic SoO clears because they can't do it.
Anyways, I'm just curious what parts of the game you think are easy and what patches have made it that way.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
People keep jumping to dungeons and raids and assume that is what needs to be beefed up. No, that leveling shit needs to be upped a bit. You know, like a real possibility you can actually get killed? Mobs that can pull as a group instead of one at a time. Leveling that requires more than 24 hours to hit max level.
Dungeons/raids are just a hamster wheel. Get in, run and run and run and run. That's all there is to it. WoW lacks the sense of achievement it once had. It lacks depth. It's just plain boring. And within 2 months of WoD's release, half the returning player base will have left because of just that. So been there... so have done that over and over and over again.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
Even I have to defend wow because that's exactly what they do. They lowered skill requirement while heroic last tier is as hard as any game. The facts speak for themeselves in that only 1% have completed ths heroic level end raid. Wildstar got it wrong because it aimed at that 1% and overestimated the other 98%
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I think it will be slightly more difficult, but not much. On one hand, I think they're hoping to stem the tide of people quitting because the regular content is too trivial and consumed too quickly, but on the other hand are also afraid of alienating those who're not prepared for challenging content to raise the difficulty level significantly. I don't think we'll be seeing vanilla, TBC or early Cata difficulty, but I also don't think we'll be seeing mists or later wrath style facerolling.
The thing that usually gets me to quit an xpac is spamming 5 mans for badge gear and it's all just easy-mode mass pull aoe fests. So, while I'd like the dungeons in wod to have pulls requiring cc, it's been proven that just doesn't work anymore in wow, because cc'ing things is hard, apparently.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
Sounds like somebody who has never done a heroic raid.
Gear is important, it is on every single MMORPG, ever, that's how they're made to last. But skill is far more important. It's not about reading guides, what do you do if the guide is for 25m and you're 10m? Or what happens if that strat only works because of a specific class composition? Or it only works for them because they're the best players in the world and your groups DPS and/or healing can't make a specific mechanic for that fight? A lot of groups, even now when the content is over a year old, don't follow what the world first guild did, if all it takes was reading a guide to clear heroic raids why do people pay $700+ for heroic clears? How did they get world first to begin with?
Actual heroic raiding where you're clearing fairly early on in content, requires skill, it requires A LOT of skill believe it or not, you have to read a lot of logs if you really want to be good, you have to figure out what your opening will be on each boss fight, do you use CDs or wait because of a mechanic, what do you even do when those CDs are up, when do you DoT, who do you DoT, where should you be location wise to maximize DPS and still be able to do that bosses mechanics, what talents/glyphs are better for that fight, are you even able to do the mechanics, what trinket is better, what should my uptime be on the boss, what should my DoT uptime be, how many CDs can I fit in this boss fight, can they line up well with my trinket/meta gem procs, is it worth waiting and losing 1 rotation of CDs so you can have procs up for the other two times, when does my team need my healing CD, is there an add that does a lot of damage/healing that I should be saving my CDs for, are there a lot of smaller adds I can use my AoE stun or slow on, who should I kill first, is there an add that needs to stay alive, when is it okay to kill that add so that I can AoE again.
Then you get into class specific details, what eclipse do you start in for each boss fight, why is one better than the other, why does your legendary meta gem change that answer, when should you use Hurricane instead of multi dotting, how are you making sure you're in Solar eclipse so you can do that at the right time, is a cleave trinket better than a multistrike trinket for this boss, I have NG + 1 Trinket up is it worth it to refresh my DoTs, when will my other trinket come up, does my other trinket even have an ICD, when are my CDs up, should I use my CDs with my trinket procs or did their proc just end, am I in the right eclipse for this mechanic, should I use CDs in this eclipse, are there adds coming so that I can use Starfall or should I wait, do I reapply DoTs first or use Starsurge, do I just apply my eclipsed DoT, does my raid team need HoTW + Tranq, should I wait for something else to proc before using Treants, how many should I use, do I stop Hurricane to reapply DoTs, do I stop mind searing to get MB on CD.
And all of those questions and a TON more you're asking yourself every few seconds of a boss fight, over and over, and so are your other 9 or 24 teammates, if 1 person messes up even 1 of those questions, there's a good chance it'll be a wipe.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
From what I understand, Cataclysm brought challenge to WoW and people left in droves. The majority of people just aren't looking for a hard game; they're looking for one they can enjoy with friends.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
This so much!
I did normals pretty religiously back in the day, but I don't think I ever understood the difficulty ramp until I stepped away and came back. I mean LFR are pretty much laughable, but trying to pug even a 10-man is just horrible. So I give total props to anyone who has the patiences for heroics now. I'll have even more respect for those doing the mythics.
As far as current WoW PvE experience, I don't think that people really want challenge in questing, tbh. If I thought that the majority of players really cared about the story, then I might think differently, but right now I would doubt if 20% of people really gave a crap about the story. It's mostly about the rush to max level. That's not to say it's not fun, it is fun. However, those who need a challenge will find their own. Personally, I'll pull 7, 8, 10 mobs at a time just for kicks. So questing difficulty can be ramped on your own. Although, I would like to see them ramp up the difficulty on group quests. I remember when it was like 3-5 meant 3-5, not 1-3.
Originally posted by waveslayer with the stat squish and class changes(further dumbing down) the game almost plays itself now, add in the character model upgrades , it almost seems like a different game, so no, other then the higher tier raiding and PvP it will not be more challenging, it will be even less.
My holy paladin on the PTR has the same amount of health as it did in WotLK, and still has more skills than it had in WotLK...you sir, have no idea what you are talking about lol.
so yor saying they have given Holy Paladins more skills?
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
Sounds like somebody who has never done a heroic raid.
Gear is important, it is on every single MMORPG, ever, that's how they're made to last. But skill is far more important. It's not about reading guides, what do you do if the guide is for 25m and you're 10m? Or what happens if that strat only works because of a specific class composition? Or it only works for them because they're the best players in the world and your groups DPS and/or healing can't make a specific mechanic for that fight? A lot of groups, even now when the content is over a year old, don't follow what the world first guild did, if all it takes was reading a guide to clear heroic raids why do people pay $700+ for heroic clears? How did they get world first to begin with?
Actual heroic raiding where you're clearing fairly early on in content, requires skill, it requires A LOT of skill believe it or not, you have to read a lot of logs if you really want to be good, you have to figure out what your opening will be on each boss fight, do you use CDs or wait because of a mechanic, what do you even do when those CDs are up, when do you DoT, who do you DoT, where should you be location wise to maximize DPS and still be able to do that bosses mechanics, what talents/glyphs are better for that fight, are you even able to do the mechanics, what trinket is better, what should my uptime be on the boss, what should my DoT uptime be, how many CDs can I fit in this boss fight, can they line up well with my trinket/meta gem procs, is it worth waiting and losing 1 rotation of CDs so you can have procs up for the other two times, when does my team need my healing CD, is there an add that does a lot of damage/healing that I should be saving my CDs for, are there a lot of smaller adds I can use my AoE stun or slow on, who should I kill first, is there an add that needs to stay alive, when is it okay to kill that add so that I can AoE again.
Then you get into class specific details, what eclipse do you start in for each boss fight, why is one better than the other, why does your legendary meta gem change that answer, when should you use Hurricane instead of multi dotting, how are you making sure you're in Solar eclipse so you can do that at the right time, is a cleave trinket better than a multistrike trinket for this boss, I have NG + 1 Trinket up is it worth it to refresh my DoTs, when will my other trinket come up, does my other trinket even have an ICD, when are my CDs up, should I use my CDs with my trinket procs or did their proc just end, am I in the right eclipse for this mechanic, should I use CDs in this eclipse, are there adds coming so that I can use Starfall or should I wait, do I reapply DoTs first or use Starsurge, do I just apply my eclipsed DoT, does my raid team need HoTW + Tranq, should I wait for something else to proc before using Treants, how many should I use, do I stop Hurricane to reapply DoTs, do I stop mind searing to get MB on CD.
And all of those questions and a TON more you're asking yourself every few seconds of a boss fight, over and over, and so are your other 9 or 24 teammates, if 1 person messes up even 1 of those questions, there's a good chance it'll be a wipe.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
Readfing up in logs on what to do when in a fight is not skill, thats preperation...
Figuring out how to beat an encounter.... and/or making real time tacticall decisions based on unexpected events, thats skil..
So i do agree that WoW really requires player skill, for those that face new encounters for the first time.... but for the rest its not so much skill but preperation
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
Sounds like somebody who has never done a heroic raid.
Gear is important, it is on every single MMORPG, ever, that's how they're made to last. But skill is far more important. It's not about reading guides, what do you do if the guide is for 25m and you're 10m? Or what happens if that strat only works because of a specific class composition? Or it only works for them because they're the best players in the world and your groups DPS and/or healing can't make a specific mechanic for that fight? A lot of groups, even now when the content is over a year old, don't follow what the world first guild did, if all it takes was reading a guide to clear heroic raids why do people pay $700+ for heroic clears? How did they get world first to begin with?
Actual heroic raiding where you're clearing fairly early on in content, requires skill, it requires A LOT of skill believe it or not, you have to read a lot of logs if you really want to be good, you have to figure out what your opening will be on each boss fight, do you use CDs or wait because of a mechanic, what do you even do when those CDs are up, when do you DoT, who do you DoT, where should you be location wise to maximize DPS and still be able to do that bosses mechanics, what talents/glyphs are better for that fight, are you even able to do the mechanics, what trinket is better, what should my uptime be on the boss, what should my DoT uptime be, how many CDs can I fit in this boss fight, can they line up well with my trinket/meta gem procs, is it worth waiting and losing 1 rotation of CDs so you can have procs up for the other two times, when does my team need my healing CD, is there an add that does a lot of damage/healing that I should be saving my CDs for, are there a lot of smaller adds I can use my AoE stun or slow on, who should I kill first, is there an add that needs to stay alive, when is it okay to kill that add so that I can AoE again.
Then you get into class specific details, what eclipse do you start in for each boss fight, why is one better than the other, why does your legendary meta gem change that answer, when should you use Hurricane instead of multi dotting, how are you making sure you're in Solar eclipse so you can do that at the right time, is a cleave trinket better than a multistrike trinket for this boss, I have NG + 1 Trinket up is it worth it to refresh my DoTs, when will my other trinket come up, does my other trinket even have an ICD, when are my CDs up, should I use my CDs with my trinket procs or did their proc just end, am I in the right eclipse for this mechanic, should I use CDs in this eclipse, are there adds coming so that I can use Starfall or should I wait, do I reapply DoTs first or use Starsurge, do I just apply my eclipsed DoT, does my raid team need HoTW + Tranq, should I wait for something else to proc before using Treants, how many should I use, do I stop Hurricane to reapply DoTs, do I stop mind searing to get MB on CD.
And all of those questions and a TON more you're asking yourself every few seconds of a boss fight, over and over, and so are your other 9 or 24 teammates, if 1 person messes up even 1 of those questions, there's a good chance it'll be a wipe.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
Readfing up in logs on what to do when in a fight is not skill, thats preperation...
Figuring out how to beat an encounter.... and/or making real time tacticall decisions based on unexpected events, thats skil..
So i do agree that WoW really requires player skill, for those that face new encounters for the first time.... but for the rest its not so much skill but preperation
All the preparation in the world won't get you the kill unless everyone can do what they are required to do. If Heroic Raiding was a matter of simple preparation, then way more people would be able to do it. The fact that so few can actually have any form of success in heroic raiding is a testament to the skill actually involved, no matter how much people want to discount that.
What is so hard about top teir rading? Other than casting afew spells at the right time and not standing in the fire. Seriously, I'm not joking, it's not hard at all. Excluding organization.
Originally posted by nbtscan From what I understand, Cataclysm brought challenge to WoW and people left in droves. The majority of people just aren't looking for a hard game; they're looking for one they can enjoy with friends.
Yep, and those SAME people complain about group content.
CATA was far from difficult/challenging.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Im not the same MMO player I was back in 2004. I don't have a tremendous amount of free time and have more responsibiltys now. Everyone seemed to hate MOP, I LOVED IT, with the exception of Pandas of course. I thought MOP was visually stunning and the music was epic. I Loved the fact I could log on for 1-2 hours and feel a real sense of accomplishment. LFR was a GODSEND and allowed allowed me to do what Iove, which was raiding and collecting gear without the HUGE time investment of old.
I just simply don't have the time or patience for games like Wildstar & Archeage, Nor am I sure I would even want to play these games if I had the free time.
I may be in the minority here but I really hope wow doesn't stray to far from what they did in MOP. Although BC will always be my favorite expansion because of the GREAT TIMES I had raiding , MOP will be a very close second for the accomadating expierance and overall fun I had with the expansion
What is so hard about top teir rading? Other than casting afew spells at the right time and not standing in the fire. Seriously, I'm not joking, it's not hard at all. Excluding organization.
Well..
what is so hard about writing music.. it is just jutting down a few notes and then playing them...
What is so hard about driving a F1 car.. it is just two pedals and a control unit ...
What is so hard about walking a tight-rope, it is just putting one foot ahead of the other...
Now the answer to your question depends on what you refer to with "top tier" raiding. So i will give both
A: if you by top tier refers to the most difficult level of the latest released content in the release cycle. What is hard about it is that it will be tuned for the top percent of raiders. Unlike normal content it will not see as much adjusting and it will take longer time for it to happen. Normal raids will have their difficulty adjusted if it proves to be to hard for the average consumer. Yop tier raiding will not. Now for a seasoned veteran gamer this will not be overly hard any way. You are familiar with most types of mechanics and know who to read up on guides from. That does not makeit easy.
B: If by top tier you refer to the top 1% of the raiding community the difficulty lies in keeping ahead of the pack towards that world first. With these people the raid it self is not all that hard, but to do it fast and with the minimum amount of deaths over and over again until the content is beaten... that is very hard.
Buy your message give me a sense that you have not done all that much top tier raiding in neither A or B... Rather you do normals, perhaops even after one or two difficulty tweaks... And in that case the answer is.. it is not hard at all. It is not designed ot be"hard" it is designed to be a challenge for a more casual player. And it still is.. trust me on that one.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Is it a step away from the easy modo?
I dont expect the questing to change, nor do I expect the raiding to change...so essentially it will have "easy" questing, and the raids will range from easy to the hardest they have ever been/the hardest on the market.
That's the reason the game still has 7 mil subs 10 years on, oodles of content for everyone.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
Sounds like somebody who has never done a heroic raid.
Gear is important, it is on every single MMORPG, ever, that's how they're made to last. But skill is far more important. It's not about reading guides, what do you do if the guide is for 25m and you're 10m? Or what happens if that strat only works because of a specific class composition? Or it only works for them because they're the best players in the world and your groups DPS and/or healing can't make a specific mechanic for that fight? A lot of groups, even now when the content is over a year old, don't follow what the world first guild did, if all it takes was reading a guide to clear heroic raids why do people pay $700+ for heroic clears? How did they get world first to begin with?
Actual heroic raiding where you're clearing fairly early on in content, requires skill, it requires A LOT of skill believe it or not, you have to read a lot of logs if you really want to be good, you have to figure out what your opening will be on each boss fight, do you use CDs or wait because of a mechanic, what do you even do when those CDs are up, when do you DoT, who do you DoT, where should you be location wise to maximize DPS and still be able to do that bosses mechanics, what talents/glyphs are better for that fight, are you even able to do the mechanics, what trinket is better, what should my uptime be on the boss, what should my DoT uptime be, how many CDs can I fit in this boss fight, can they line up well with my trinket/meta gem procs, is it worth waiting and losing 1 rotation of CDs so you can have procs up for the other two times, when does my team need my healing CD, is there an add that does a lot of damage/healing that I should be saving my CDs for, are there a lot of smaller adds I can use my AoE stun or slow on, who should I kill first, is there an add that needs to stay alive, when is it okay to kill that add so that I can AoE again.
Then you get into class specific details, what eclipse do you start in for each boss fight, why is one better than the other, why does your legendary meta gem change that answer, when should you use Hurricane instead of multi dotting, how are you making sure you're in Solar eclipse so you can do that at the right time, is a cleave trinket better than a multistrike trinket for this boss, I have NG + 1 Trinket up is it worth it to refresh my DoTs, when will my other trinket come up, does my other trinket even have an ICD, when are my CDs up, should I use my CDs with my trinket procs or did their proc just end, am I in the right eclipse for this mechanic, should I use CDs in this eclipse, are there adds coming so that I can use Starfall or should I wait, do I reapply DoTs first or use Starsurge, do I just apply my eclipsed DoT, does my raid team need HoTW + Tranq, should I wait for something else to proc before using Treants, how many should I use, do I stop Hurricane to reapply DoTs, do I stop mind searing to get MB on CD.
And all of those questions and a TON more you're asking yourself every few seconds of a boss fight, over and over, and so are your other 9 or 24 teammates, if 1 person messes up even 1 of those questions, there's a good chance it'll be a wipe.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
Readfing up in logs on what to do when in a fight is not skill, thats preperation...
Figuring out how to beat an encounter.... and/or making real time tacticall decisions based on unexpected events, thats skil..
So i do agree that WoW really requires player skill, for those that face new encounters for the first time.... but for the rest its not so much skill but preperation
If all it takes is preparation why have less than 1 percent of WoWs playerbase completed heroic SoO? There's groups that raid for 20+ hours a week and aren't even near it yet, your argument is invalid.
Btw, are you even able to read a log properly?
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
If they brought back the challenge and time requried they had in the leveling game that was in Vanilla and TBC my wife and I would buy the expansion. The reality of it is this will never happen and easy mode leveling is here to stay. If they wanted people to rush to the end they should have let people start at the level of the last expansion and let those that enjoyed their leveling game alone. It's why we have moved to a private server to find that fun again.
Comments
I don't know about HoR, but people didn't want to run Oculus because of that stupid 'bird combat' part at the end of it. In fact, that applies to all 'vehicle combat' that was introduced in WotLK; you were taken out of your character and put to another one, which didn't benefit any of your gear, buffs or skills. How fun is that? This was supposed to be an RPG.
And the dungeons not being pug-friendly.. We can only blame random dungeon finder and how it was executed. The range of levels able to queue for dungeons was too big, along with the fact that healing was undertuned (that's what i've heard) at the beginning of Cata.
Dungeons were too easy even in WotLK, and they became a joke in Cata and later on. Experienced casual like myself did quit because the game became too easy, and the remaining playerbase couldn't handle 'normal' difficulty.
My holy paladin on the PTR has the same amount of health as it did in WotLK, and still has more skills than it had in WotLK...you sir, have no idea what you are talking about lol.
You guys should really research your nonsense before commenting...
The heoric 5 mans in WoD are going back to Cata level, and they are adding "normal" level 100 versions for each that will be essentially on par with WotLK/MoP heroics. The "normal" dungeons will be used to gear for LFR, and the "heroic" dungoens will be used to gear for normal/heroic raids.
They, yet again, are adding more options for everyone to choose from, ranigng from hard to easy....a good thing for everybody, wouldn't you agree?
Yes, sir, yes I would.
This is actually where I see Wildstar as having failed. WoW is constantly expanding to suit a wider user base. LFR is like a god-send for me ever since my guildies buggered off and I'm essentially a filthy casual now. However, I have friends who are still doing heroics. So there is a huge gap that needs to be covered and they've done an excellent job in patching that. Since Raids are a barrier to the end of the story, everyone should have a chance to experience that.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I think WS problem is more the focus on raiding... Content should challenge but not overwhelm the players and while the noob areas should be easy the difficulty should increase as you learn to play.
In fact Wow originally had something like that, and that was actually part of what made it so big.
Maybe it's the same argument because it's true.
Can you name some patches that made 90% of the game easier?
It doesn't matter what percent of the game has hard content, that doesn't even make sense, the reason it caters to a small group of players is because 99% of the players who play WoW aren't able to do it.
Btw, it's funny you think just because questing and LFR isn't hard that it makes the game easier, none of that is end game, and leveling shouldn't be hard like raiding is, so what is your point?
You should see how many people spend hundreds of dollars for challenge mode clears because they can't do it, or even normal/heroic SoO clears because they can't do it.
Anyways, I'm just curious what parts of the game you think are easy and what patches have made it that way.
People keep jumping to dungeons and raids and assume that is what needs to be beefed up. No, that leveling shit needs to be upped a bit. You know, like a real possibility you can actually get killed? Mobs that can pull as a group instead of one at a time. Leveling that requires more than 24 hours to hit max level.
Dungeons/raids are just a hamster wheel. Get in, run and run and run and run. That's all there is to it. WoW lacks the sense of achievement it once had. It lacks depth. It's just plain boring. And within 2 months of WoD's release, half the returning player base will have left because of just that. So been there... so have done that over and over and over again.
I can't disagree more with this statement. There is nothing about WoW raids that is hard, It is 95% gear and numbers. If your in a guild that has gear and can get people on team speak running a high level WoW raid is no different from reading a guide. After the world first figure it out and write the guides this game is not even remotely challenging, thats the nature of hotkey games in our meta-theory gaming age.
Skill and challenge will only come back with a major rethinking of how these things should work. Wildstar wasn't the answer because its base skill requirement was too high. The challenge will be to design a low base skill req like WoW while adding the a higher challenge cap.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Sounds like somebody who has never done a heroic raid.
Gear is important, it is on every single MMORPG, ever, that's how they're made to last. But skill is far more important. It's not about reading guides, what do you do if the guide is for 25m and you're 10m? Or what happens if that strat only works because of a specific class composition? Or it only works for them because they're the best players in the world and your groups DPS and/or healing can't make a specific mechanic for that fight? A lot of groups, even now when the content is over a year old, don't follow what the world first guild did, if all it takes was reading a guide to clear heroic raids why do people pay $700+ for heroic clears? How did they get world first to begin with?
Actual heroic raiding where you're clearing fairly early on in content, requires skill, it requires A LOT of skill believe it or not, you have to read a lot of logs if you really want to be good, you have to figure out what your opening will be on each boss fight, do you use CDs or wait because of a mechanic, what do you even do when those CDs are up, when do you DoT, who do you DoT, where should you be location wise to maximize DPS and still be able to do that bosses mechanics, what talents/glyphs are better for that fight, are you even able to do the mechanics, what trinket is better, what should my uptime be on the boss, what should my DoT uptime be, how many CDs can I fit in this boss fight, can they line up well with my trinket/meta gem procs, is it worth waiting and losing 1 rotation of CDs so you can have procs up for the other two times, when does my team need my healing CD, is there an add that does a lot of damage/healing that I should be saving my CDs for, are there a lot of smaller adds I can use my AoE stun or slow on, who should I kill first, is there an add that needs to stay alive, when is it okay to kill that add so that I can AoE again.
Then you get into class specific details, what eclipse do you start in for each boss fight, why is one better than the other, why does your legendary meta gem change that answer, when should you use Hurricane instead of multi dotting, how are you making sure you're in Solar eclipse so you can do that at the right time, is a cleave trinket better than a multistrike trinket for this boss, I have NG + 1 Trinket up is it worth it to refresh my DoTs, when will my other trinket come up, does my other trinket even have an ICD, when are my CDs up, should I use my CDs with my trinket procs or did their proc just end, am I in the right eclipse for this mechanic, should I use CDs in this eclipse, are there adds coming so that I can use Starfall or should I wait, do I reapply DoTs first or use Starsurge, do I just apply my eclipsed DoT, does my raid team need HoTW + Tranq, should I wait for something else to proc before using Treants, how many should I use, do I stop Hurricane to reapply DoTs, do I stop mind searing to get MB on CD.
And all of those questions and a TON more you're asking yourself every few seconds of a boss fight, over and over, and so are your other 9 or 24 teammates, if 1 person messes up even 1 of those questions, there's a good chance it'll be a wipe.
I can keep going on but the end game content, which is heroic raiding is extremely difficult to learn and I challenge anybody who says the game is easy to try it, even SoO, go try it, it's been out for over a year and I bet you can't, then try to clear a WoD raid the week, and month it opens up, let's see how you do.
This so much!
I did normals pretty religiously back in the day, but I don't think I ever understood the difficulty ramp until I stepped away and came back. I mean LFR are pretty much laughable, but trying to pug even a 10-man is just horrible. So I give total props to anyone who has the patiences for heroics now. I'll have even more respect for those doing the mythics.
As far as current WoW PvE experience, I don't think that people really want challenge in questing, tbh. If I thought that the majority of players really cared about the story, then I might think differently, but right now I would doubt if 20% of people really gave a crap about the story. It's mostly about the rush to max level. That's not to say it's not fun, it is fun. However, those who need a challenge will find their own. Personally, I'll pull 7, 8, 10 mobs at a time just for kicks. So questing difficulty can be ramped on your own. Although, I would like to see them ramp up the difficulty on group quests. I remember when it was like 3-5 meant 3-5, not 1-3.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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so yor saying they have given Holy Paladins more skills?
Godz of War I call Thee
Readfing up in logs on what to do when in a fight is not skill, thats preperation...
Figuring out how to beat an encounter.... and/or making real time tacticall decisions based on unexpected events, thats skil..
So i do agree that WoW really requires player skill, for those that face new encounters for the first time.... but for the rest its not so much skill but preperation
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
All the preparation in the world won't get you the kill unless everyone can do what they are required to do. If Heroic Raiding was a matter of simple preparation, then way more people would be able to do it. The fact that so few can actually have any form of success in heroic raiding is a testament to the skill actually involved, no matter how much people want to discount that.
What is so hard about top teir rading? Other than casting afew spells at the right time and not standing in the fire. Seriously, I'm not joking, it's not hard at all. Excluding organization.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Yep, and those SAME people complain about group content.
CATA was far from difficult/challenging.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Im not the same MMO player I was back in 2004. I don't have a tremendous amount of free time and have more responsibiltys now. Everyone seemed to hate MOP, I LOVED IT, with the exception of Pandas of course. I thought MOP was visually stunning and the music was epic. I Loved the fact I could log on for 1-2 hours and feel a real sense of accomplishment. LFR was a GODSEND and allowed allowed me to do what Iove, which was raiding and collecting gear without the HUGE time investment of old.
I just simply don't have the time or patience for games like Wildstar & Archeage, Nor am I sure I would even want to play these games if I had the free time.
I may be in the minority here but I really hope wow doesn't stray to far from what they did in MOP. Although BC will always be my favorite expansion because of the GREAT TIMES I had raiding , MOP will be a very close second for the accomadating expierance and overall fun I had with the expansion
Aloha Mr Hand !
Well..
what is so hard about writing music.. it is just jutting down a few notes and then playing them...
What is so hard about driving a F1 car.. it is just two pedals and a control unit ...
What is so hard about walking a tight-rope, it is just putting one foot ahead of the other...
Now the answer to your question depends on what you refer to with "top tier" raiding. So i will give both
A: if you by top tier refers to the most difficult level of the latest released content in the release cycle. What is hard about it is that it will be tuned for the top percent of raiders. Unlike normal content it will not see as much adjusting and it will take longer time for it to happen. Normal raids will have their difficulty adjusted if it proves to be to hard for the average consumer. Yop tier raiding will not. Now for a seasoned veteran gamer this will not be overly hard any way. You are familiar with most types of mechanics and know who to read up on guides from. That does not makeit easy.
B: If by top tier you refer to the top 1% of the raiding community the difficulty lies in keeping ahead of the pack towards that world first. With these people the raid it self is not all that hard, but to do it fast and with the minimum amount of deaths over and over again until the content is beaten... that is very hard.
Buy your message give me a sense that you have not done all that much top tier raiding in neither A or B... Rather you do normals, perhaops even after one or two difficulty tweaks... And in that case the answer is.. it is not hard at all. It is not designed ot be"hard" it is designed to be a challenge for a more casual player. And it still is.. trust me on that one.
This have been a good conversation
If all it takes is preparation why have less than 1 percent of WoWs playerbase completed heroic SoO? There's groups that raid for 20+ hours a week and aren't even near it yet, your argument is invalid.
Btw, are you even able to read a log properly?