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When will Developers learn?
oldschoolpunk
Member Posts: 281
When will developers learn that Open PVP just doesnt work. It's a curse on any MMO. The worst part about is that all (not most...all) of the new Sandbox games coming out are Open PVP.
I only need bring up one argument to prove that Open PVP is nothing more than a niche for a niche crowd....might as well just make a MOBA if you want to make a complete and large game but kill it with Open PVP.
Darkfall - there are people playing, but not many. They got their dream...a sandbox game with Full Loot PVP.
Mortal Online - Same, people playing, but had to go FTP. A little more interesting than Darkfall (imho) but the open PVP kills it.
Eve Online - Niche game and it's space travel/battle so I wouldn't say that you could compare it to anything other than other space games.
I know Im gonna get killed for this post, but I truly think that devs need to realize that the PVE groups are much larger than the PVP groups and that although it's less time consuming and cheaper to make open PVP games, you'll never make as much money.
Just my rant...Im sick of all the open pvp games...especially since it's never been proven that they are popular in any way shape or form.
Comments
EVE Online and +300k subs beg to differ.
I think you missed part of my post where I said that Eve is not comparable because it is a space game...can only compare it to other space games. I'd think that the only thing you could do with a space game is build ships and kill each other...regardless it IS niche
I didn't miss it, I ignored it as it is not relevant argument.
I'm starting to think you're right on that one. I think all devs have that conversation, and there seems like two different takes on it.
In the West:
"Our goal is to maximize interaction, and studies show that PVP is the optimal content strategy to laser-focus on. The target audience's social-media engagement is key to a viral send on this type of immersive gameplay, so the big push is going to be on integration of the Twitch.tv and YouTubes. If we want to evolve the global community, messaging open PVP as core gameplay is priority one. The strategy? Make exactly what everyone else did, but... ready? wait for it... wait for it...
...say it's different!"
In the East:
"Make game for great pleasure. Give 29 level of happiness and joy. Rest of game all big challenge. Very big challenge. PVP BONANZA!"
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Eve is the exception that proves the rule so to speak. It is the only truly successful game in the bunch; at least in the West anyway. That it has managed to survive while others don't says something, but since I never could get into Eve personally, I can't put a finger on why it works while others don't.
But like I said, just cause Eve works doesn't mean it will in other games. If it worked across the board then the PVE games would be the niche games while the majority of successful MMOs would be open world PVP sandboxes, but it isn't that way.
Sure 300K subs, but only a fraction of them are original players. No, I don't believe EVE is the shining star everyone makes it out to be. CCP just struck gold in figuring out how to re-monetize a niche player base.
Why it works is very simple - EVE has got NPC law enforcement authority and very complex PVP flag rule set.
EVE does not use OWPVP to promote PVP but sandbox gameplay.
Which MMO can't that be said of?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't say it is the same, I said that the difference does not matter.
Nope,they both say 'lets make a game where we can maximise profit so it has to be one hotbar and easy to understand so that a 5 year old can play it too' well maybe I'm wrong..it is just the west that does this.
correct me if I'm wrong its been many years since I played But CCP milks players for subscriptions, Want a alt then you have to have a alt subscription . When I played EvE I had like 3 subscriptions so I could try out characters from the 3 different cultures and their ships. When I played WoW I only needed one subscription to play several different character classes from the different races.
I play neither game anymore But I wouldn't be surprised if EVE's 300 k subscribers is actuall only arounf 100K with a average of 3 subscriptions (some more some less) per player) WOW on the other hand most likely just one subscription per player on average
Soooooo, In an mmorpg you go out on a map, doing quests and PvE exploration and gankers murder your soul every time you respawn and that is wrong, but then the exact same thing happen on EVE (even worse because you lose a lot of real money ships) and suddenly its fine because its in space?
What is bad is bad no matter what color or shape it has. Open world pvp is not bad, but i agree it shouldnt be in every single mmo. Thats the beauty of variety, different games with different content. Everyone wants to do the same as their neighbor and all of them flop.
And here goes the correction:
You can have up to 3 characters per account. You need no additional subscription.
To you.
There are no "real money ships" in EVE Online.
nvm, not worth the reply..
This same argument can be said of more than a few things that now seem to be a staple of MMOs.
Active skill limited to keys 1-6 or 1-8
PvP skirmishes with ranked ladder progression
Daily quests
Do raid 100000x for a chance at loot X so you can do a more difficult raid 100000x for a chance at loot Y.
Crafting systems where materials to make level 10 gear doesn't start dropping/become available until level 10 mobs making sure that by the time you get enough to make that gear, you have outleveled it...in other words, crafting that is mostly worthless until end game. Better yet, crafting with insane timers to make items like in SWTOR, Neverwinter, AA...
This could end up being a long list if I continue to list so many things that have been popping up in MMORPGs over the last 7 years that are being repeated more and more even though they are not very liked outside of WoW...and who likes that crafting where it takes an hour to make an item?!? Yet...so many developers copy it.
This is what happens when developers look at spreadsheets and studies to make a game instead of learning what is actually FUN, and making that. Where are the GAME PLAYING DEVELOPERS? There used to be a lot of them.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Many players actually do want a massive open world where they have far reaching control over what they can do within that world. The glaring issue is that both developers and players apparently think that freedom to whatever they want is the answer. This in fact is not the answer.
What sandbox games need developed and added are methods to implement MORE restrictions. There is often a complete lack of policing and judiciary punishment in these games. Players want a real life (albeit fantasy extremes) play space but are allowed to do the worst of the worst to each other with hardly any way to preserve what is gained. Griefing becomes rampant and this is the number one reason why players quit.
You can go back thousands of years and still find meaningful laws in human advanced cultures. To be bad is a very bad thing indeed to those willing to do harm to others. The power to punish is put in the hands of the individual player in most mmos but in reality the power to punish is squarely in the hands of those in power for millennia on Earth. Developers have become flat out lazy and go halfway in developing open world games but then fail to offer players any tangible tools to police community.
The reason why so many open sandbox pvp games fail outright or fail to capture larger audiences is because they are incompetently developed. Developers lack the understanding of how nearly all intelligently run rpg's are game mastered. You NEVER give ANY player complete freedom. Choices matter. Does anyone here honestly think that a Greek citizen around 700 BC could simply murder another and get away with it? Would a Roman in 100 AD? Would a Chinese during any peek period of their rule over the last 3000 years? Hell you can go back as far as 12000 years and find advanced and self ruled cultures. Even small tribes have strict governance over their own people.
Open sandbox games even with global pvp settings CAN exist and CAN draw in larges player bases IF they actually provide proper tool sets for players to realistically construct the worlds they envision. Up until now we have largely seen massive open arenas of death. Of freaking course the vast majority of balanced humans would refuse such an environment to play in for any length of time. People take their mmos very seriously. What they grow and build through time, sweat and conflict is as real to them as real life at times. Most people do not want to get brutally murdered the second they leave their front door. Call it a quirk but it is fucking reality in both life and games emulating life even if fantasy based.
You stay sassy!
Wow has a good crafting system? I guess I missed it after was blinded by the great graphics and the level 50 guy with horns constantly standing in front of my level three toon trying to duel me.
Well, I guess you have a point there. I just happen to think it's more prevalent in EVE. But it all comes down to what you can do in a game with more than one account vs. having only one account based on game mechanics.
What can you do with 2 accounts in WoW that you can't do on one?
You'd know better than me but if that conversation ever takes place in an actual meeting, stand up and walk out. That game is doomed.
Go figure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_RsLCPkoI