What about Permadeath? Is that harsh enough? There's going to be an optional permadeath option in Shards Online so I'll be interested in seeing how well this is implemented.
Also, since it's player-run servers, it might actually be something that will provide the greatest amount of variation when it comes to death penalties.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Special servers that dont follow the norm of RP, PvP and PvE servers have the lowest populations and are normally the first that have to be shut down because of it. In theory they sound awesome but in the end dont help the game. When servers get shut down and the population is forced to pick a new server you lose players.
This only holds true if the game is so shit already that it can't sustain a population for general servers.. Trust me when I say that Blizzard's WoW having OVER 100 servers, that adding one more isn't going to brake them.. And I bet that 1 server could stay open to satisfy group minded people like me.. But yeah, games like Rift, Tera or SWToR that have a small number of PvE servers can justify adding in another.. Think about it this way.. Having a "hard" server were grouping is almost needed for open world content, would discourage gold sellers..
So not true, the games I have played that had special servers like you are asking for was EQ1 and DAoC two of the biggest founding MMOs to date. Point to one game that has a speciality server thats still standing. You cant because MMOs that flag shipped that idea fail. No matter how epic the game is.
So according to YOU.. People that want hard group content are such a minority, there is no demand for it... AHHH OK.. I guess Blizzard should just close down their heroic dungeons and raids, because NO ONE plays them.. according to YOU.. lmaoooooo Thank you for the info..
A game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
So I guess you're just going to hope SOE has never heard of WoW before and buy that line of bullshit ?
LOL yup I find these post so funny. Give up perma death and the game will beat wow. I wish they would make a game like this just to see how fast it will fail in todays market.
A game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
So I guess you're just going to hope SOE has never heard of WoW before and buy that line of bullshit ?
LOL yup I find these post so funny. Give up perma death and the game will beat wow. I wish they would make a game like this just to see how fast it will fail in todays market.
In case you are new to the mmo scene for the past 7 years every mmo modelled after WoW that has come out has flopped horribly. Then you have the mmos with unique ideas, but horrible implementation, developers, decisions, and finacial backings that caused them to fail miserably.
Hence why everyone is looking forward to something new and unique with sandbox elements. Enter the nomadic gamer syndrome where they go from game to game because they are all pieces of shit that try to do XXX YYY ZZZ formula.
My 2nd favorite mmo Darkfall online tried new and suceeded, but were destroyed from within by a lazy incompetant development team, specific flaws within their game, and trying to casualize and reinvent their original game which has done very, very badly. Thanks Aventurine for slapping your fanbase and alienating them.
Originally posted by Zhjris In case you are new to the mmo scene for the past 7 years every mmo modelled after WoW that has come out has flopped horribly. Then you have the mmos with unique ideas, but horrible implementation, developers, decisions, and finacial backings that caused them to fail miserably.Hence why everyone is looking forward to something new and unique with sandbox elements. Enter the nomadic gamer syndrome where they go from game to game because they are all pieces of shit that try to do XXX YYY ZZZ formula. My 2nd favorite mmo Darkfall online tried new and suceeded, but were destroyed from within by a lazy incompetant development team, specific flaws within their game, and trying to casualize and reinvent their original game which has done very, very badly. Thanks Aventurine for slapping your fanbase and alienating them.
Maybe you could shrug off your arbitrary qualifiers for what "flopped" is and reasons for "fail" and you shoudl talking in behalf of anyone but you since your views certainly do not represent "everybody".
Why do these posts keep popping up? EqNext will be NOTHING like eq, based on what we know. All you do is build up illusions for yourself and move focus away from discussion about what the game will actually be. Yes I would like to see a game that takes up some eq virtues, but that game will not be EqNext.
No, the SM community of the world is rather small. "Harsh" and "punishing" are fine for a few swings, but not amazing long-term for most ppl. Yes, there are the odd thousands that played Dark Souls till their eyes were bleeding, but they aren't enough to make up the playbase of a very large MMO. Most went in, played a bit (perhaps finished some objectives), then moved on; great change of pace, but no more than that.
An honestly, "glory days of EQ" ppl....NO game, NO movie, NO book, NO NOTHING will ever revert you back to being 16 and not caring about school/money/a job/family...sorry, move on.
With twitch based combat you don't want harsh death penalties. Normally I would be all for making death a bummer, but the high incidence of misses and lag deaths that are sure to exist in EQN will make harsh death penalties a random and un-fun frustration mechanic.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Why can't computer games be treated the same respect?
Well that is a common sense answer. Its called the majority. The majority pays the bills and lines the pockets of investors with cash. No one (except Brad McQuad) wants to create nostalgic games because they know that very few want to play them. Most of those nostalgic gamers are working adults with families now (though I am sure still live at mom's house) and while it sounds great to live the glory days. It really isn't.
I am one of those glory day gamers and tried to get back into EQ via Project 1999 and it was brutal. I just do not have the time these days to thrive in that sort of world anymore. Not to say you are me, but give it a try and see if it is still your cup of tea.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Special servers that dont follow the norm of RP, PvP and PvE servers have the lowest populations and are normally the first that have to be shut down because of it. In theory they sound awesome but in the end dont help the game. When servers get shut down and the population is forced to pick a new server you lose players.
This only holds true if the game is so shit already that it can't sustain a population for general servers.. Trust me when I say that Blizzard's WoW having OVER 100 servers, that adding one more isn't going to brake them.. And I bet that 1 server could stay open to satisfy group minded people like me.. But yeah, games like Rift, Tera or SWToR that have a small number of PvE servers can justify adding in another.. Think about it this way.. Having a "hard" server were grouping is almost needed for open world content, would discourage gold sellers..
So not true, the games I have played that had special servers like you are asking for was EQ1 and DAoC two of the biggest founding MMOs to date. Point to one game that has a speciality server thats still standing. You cant because MMOs that flag shipped that idea fail. No matter how epic the game is.
So according to YOU.. People that want hard group content are such a minority, there is no demand for it... AHHH OK.. I guess Blizzard should just close down their heroic dungeons and raids, because NO ONE plays them.. according to YOU.. lmaoooooo Thank you for the info..
No, there is a difference between adding harder content to all servers over making a server just for hard content. If you dont get that well lol. Again point at one game that added special servers that still even does them. Like I said the few games I knew that had them, shut them down due to population problems.
As an old EQ vet who has played on some of the private Vanila pvp servers, if this game is easy mode, I won't touch it. With that said, I don't think experience penalties are the way to go, but there are many ways to make death meaningful.
I have recently been playing a game in alpha testing called Project: Gorgon. It likens itself to the old school days and one of the penalties for dying is that if you die to certain bosses, (there are cows, pigs, ravens, wolves and more!) you become cursed and turn into whatever the boss you died to was. along with this you gain access to a new "class" which has its own abilities that you can level up. You can then undo the curse by doing a quest line, or by defeating the monster that cursed you.
(side note) Every full moon in game, everyone turns into a wolf, how much fun is that??? These forms are actually powerful (ravens can fly, etc) and some people love the animal forms so much that they play them permanently! There is also gear tailored specifically to these forms to increase their abilities just like "normal" ones.
I think the team at Project:Gorgon did a great job of making dying a risky venture, but even when you die something pretty cool happens. You also get "death experience" (a skill which levels up when you die) from dying in different ways. Like the first time you are burned to death, you get experience. Eventually after leveling up the "death skill" you gain access to another form which walks the nether world and creates a whole new gameplay experience.
TL:DR SoE doesn't have to rehash what it has been done in the past to make death meaningful, they just need to think outside the box. But they haven't done that since Vanguard, so GL!
Seriously dude.. You need to stop assuming and reading ideas not in print or said.. I NEVER said a thing about splitting people up based on skill.. And NO WHERE did I say anything about people playing heroic dungeons should be on their own server.. double WOW /slocked..
As I'm not the only one that understood what you said as such, obviously it wasn't as crystal clear as you believe. Welcome to the internet.
Regardless, what you are saying can still be taken that way.
If a regular server mob is 100% difficulty and designed for an average player, a server with 300% harder difficulty implies that players are either 3X better or have multiple players at all times. Average players wouldn't be able to play on that server without a full time group, which is awesome if you have that (assuming you do), not everyone does.
So it is basically not welcoming average or unorganized players, which I'd guess are quite a few people. I still have no problem with this, just pointing out what I understood you to mean, I accept that it might not be what you meant.
This isn't a huge leap away from early EQ/WoW and games with high end raiding content. You were some what expected to have a full understanding of your character (sadly many never do), be able to work as a team member (hard for some), and actually have a decent team to be a part of (again not so easy to come by always).
Not too different then what I'm hoping we see in EQN. The fully you understand your character and how to play, on top of the group you play with, the more complex the challenges can become.
Your ASSUMPTION of tiers has never been said by Sony, and that concept of tiers lives in your own mind..
Never said other wise. You're the one seems to have first hand knowledge of how they will/won't work. I'm simply taking what they've said and running with it. Also giving examples of what could work and still provide everyone with a good experience.
In any case you are wanting to divide the player base up into skill groups.. And that is exactly what this game doesn't need.. MMORPG have enough problems with building communities, and here you go off promoting "Esport" concepts of I or We are better then you.. NO THANKS..
I'm wanting to provide all skill groups content to enjoy. With reason for them to play together as well. Can easily have both and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I do NOT want to be doing tier 5 content, and be forced to ignore my friends that are lower skilled, or go play their tier feeling like a god because the mobs are too easy..
How would you solve this problem? The only suggestion you seem to have is average it out. No mmorpg does this. There is simply too large of a skill range to average it around some imaginary player.
Like my example gave, you could have a Tier 5 class and still enjoy Tier 1 content and the other way around. As they seem to allude to everyone gaining Tier 5 classes over a short period of time, I imagine it is fairly similar to leveling where time = Tier 5, not skill only.
Within each Tier, skill can come into play. Just as a lvl 60 class in Vanilla WoW wasn't instantly soloing Rag or whatever boss, there was further development needed (gear, builds, group, etc). Should still be plenty of solo, Pug, small/large scale content to tackle for a wide variety of players.
I don't envision Tier 5 = Dragons all day every day and Tier 1 = Bunnies. I imagine a wide diversity of content, which they've basically said is the case and with horizontal progression, players should be free to go between them, minus any requirements such as attuning. Not simply Tier 5 > Tier 1 in every possible way.
Again though, please give a real example (use EQ/WoW if needed) of how you would design content that caters to everyone. What would a typical mob, pack, boss, etc look like where 1, 5, 25, 50, 100 people of all skill types could engage and feel challenged.
As for my comment about mobs being 300% harder, that doesn't effect skill, it promotes GROUP play in the open world.. Good luck in soloing that shit.. Even mobs 300% tougher can be taken down by a weak group of less skilled players.. I'm starting to think you NEVER played a game where the open world was actually dangerous.. Making mobs 300% harder with NO leash sure as hell does
If by tougher you mean more HP/DMG then ya I agree. If you account for Storybricks and what they hype it to be, I think you'll run into a problem. They aren't going for the stack HP/DMG = harder model of EQ/WoW (again that whole horizontal deal). The AI will get increasingly harder (from what I understand) within and through the Tiers.
It shouldn't be a matter of endurance and just hitting 1111111 longer, it will involve actual brain power. They've said mobs will use their own tactics and exploit player weaknesses, not simply stand there and let you beat on them, the end. This is where skill comes into play.
Yes 10 poor players can stack power to equal 5 better players when HP/DMG are the only variable, but once the AI starts actually fighting back and players will need to know how to actually play and work together, we should hopefully see an entire new way of playing these games. Wishful thinking until they produce a product though.
And no I've not played games where the open world was "dangerous" or where there were "harsh" death penalties. EQ? Oh no, run to the zone line or die. Get corpse, continue on. EQ wasn't "easy", but looking back after playing so many other games, it wasn't exactly a grueling experience where every moment I was on the edge of my seat sweating bullets.
I also wouldn't play a game a lone where everything is 300% harder. As I don't play HC in Diablo 3 or stress about moving up in Greater Rifts. I play to have fun, not be stressed out or waste my time even more. Killing something 3x longer for no greater reward and just to prove I can is not amazing to me. At least not the HP/DMG route. Nor is having to have a perfect set up of close friends at all times or the game isn't playable. I like a game to appeal to all my styles and in turn, a wide variety of gamers.
Comments
What about Permadeath? Is that harsh enough? There's going to be an optional permadeath option in Shards Online so I'll be interested in seeing how well this is implemented.
Also, since it's player-run servers, it might actually be something that will provide the greatest amount of variation when it comes to death penalties.
Crazkanuk
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So according to YOU.. People that want hard group content are such a minority, there is no demand for it... AHHH OK.. I guess Blizzard should just close down their heroic dungeons and raids, because NO ONE plays them.. according to YOU.. lmaoooooo Thank you for the info..
LOL yup I find these post so funny. Give up perma death and the game will beat wow. I wish they would make a game like this just to see how fast it will fail in todays market.
In case you are new to the mmo scene for the past 7 years every mmo modelled after WoW that has come out has flopped horribly. Then you have the mmos with unique ideas, but horrible implementation, developers, decisions, and finacial backings that caused them to fail miserably.
Hence why everyone is looking forward to something new and unique with sandbox elements. Enter the nomadic gamer syndrome where they go from game to game because they are all pieces of shit that try to do XXX YYY ZZZ formula.
My 2nd favorite mmo Darkfall online tried new and suceeded, but were destroyed from within by a lazy incompetant development team, specific flaws within their game, and trying to casualize and reinvent their original game which has done very, very badly. Thanks Aventurine for slapping your fanbase and alienating them.
Maybe you could shrug off your arbitrary qualifiers for what "flopped" is and reasons for "fail" and you shoudl talking in behalf of anyone but you since your views certainly do not represent "everybody".
tl;dr: It is just solely your personal bias.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
No, the SM community of the world is rather small. "Harsh" and "punishing" are fine for a few swings, but not amazing long-term for most ppl. Yes, there are the odd thousands that played Dark Souls till their eyes were bleeding, but they aren't enough to make up the playbase of a very large MMO. Most went in, played a bit (perhaps finished some objectives), then moved on; great change of pace, but no more than that.
An honestly, "glory days of EQ" ppl....NO game, NO movie, NO book, NO NOTHING will ever revert you back to being 16 and not caring about school/money/a job/family...sorry, move on.
Well that is a common sense answer. Its called the majority. The majority pays the bills and lines the pockets of investors with cash. No one (except Brad McQuad) wants to create nostalgic games because they know that very few want to play them. Most of those nostalgic gamers are working adults with families now (though I am sure still live at mom's house) and while it sounds great to live the glory days. It really isn't.
I am one of those glory day gamers and tried to get back into EQ via Project 1999 and it was brutal. I just do not have the time these days to thrive in that sort of world anymore. Not to say you are me, but give it a try and see if it is still your cup of tea.
No, there is a difference between adding harder content to all servers over making a server just for hard content. If you dont get that well lol. Again point at one game that added special servers that still even does them. Like I said the few games I knew that had them, shut them down due to population problems.
As an old EQ vet who has played on some of the private Vanila pvp servers, if this game is easy mode, I won't touch it. With that said, I don't think experience penalties are the way to go, but there are many ways to make death meaningful.
I have recently been playing a game in alpha testing called Project: Gorgon. It likens itself to the old school days and one of the penalties for dying is that if you die to certain bosses, (there are cows, pigs, ravens, wolves and more!) you become cursed and turn into whatever the boss you died to was. along with this you gain access to a new "class" which has its own abilities that you can level up. You can then undo the curse by doing a quest line, or by defeating the monster that cursed you.
(side note) Every full moon in game, everyone turns into a wolf, how much fun is that??? These forms are actually powerful (ravens can fly, etc) and some people love the animal forms so much that they play them permanently! There is also gear tailored specifically to these forms to increase their abilities just like "normal" ones.
I think the team at Project:Gorgon did a great job of making dying a risky venture, but even when you die something pretty cool happens. You also get "death experience" (a skill which levels up when you die) from dying in different ways. Like the first time you are burned to death, you get experience. Eventually after leveling up the "death skill" you gain access to another form which walks the nether world and creates a whole new gameplay experience.
TL:DR SoE doesn't have to rehash what it has been done in the past to make death meaningful, they just need to think outside the box. But they haven't done that since Vanguard, so GL!