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Missing the good old EQ One type of hardcore gameplay

When EQ first came out, I simply loved the hardcore aspects. I am referring to the death penalty, corpse retrieval, inability to teleport everywhere instantly, food and drinking necessity, etc. The rush I got from the difficulty of EQ made it fun for me. The games now have become easier with respect to risk taking. Now, if things go wrong simply port out, die, etc. It makes no difference IMO. I was wondering how other people feel about this and whether there is a game in development that harkens back to the original difficulties of EQ?
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Comments

  • WickesWickes Member UncommonPosts: 749
    Plenty of people miss it, but you'll find few on this site.  Look around various sites.  For games, it's Vanguard.
  • NorgothNorgoth Member Posts: 7
    I am not sure what you mean Wickes by "you'll find few on this site"? Do you mean that few people that visit this site miss the hardcore system of EQLive? Thanks for the suggestion on Vanguard. I will check it out but I believe it is not slated to release until sometime late in '06.
  • carebearcarebear Member Posts: 188

    Well, EQ1 is still out hehe. image

    But I also enjoyed the challenges of the old school games. It was that challenge and that "I can't eat right now, I'm on a CR!" that made the game so addicting. I guess people got tired of being challenged, including a lot of my friends, so they move to today's easy games. Before Shadowrest and the Guild Lobby summoning altars, imagine what you did if your group died in the south wing of Howling Stones? You all stayed to get your corpse, called friends, bribed other players, etc all to get enough help to try and get those corpses. Now imagine you were in the same situation with the same map but with the WoW engine? For one, they wouldn't lock you out requiring keys and stuff to get back, nothing will aggro you on the way back, and if you just don't care, you can talk to the ghost guy and get all your stuff back instantly.

    Nothing's really dangerous, nothing's really scary. Remember your first time into Plane of Hate or Fear?

    Maybe they should have a difficulty setting in today's games. Hopefully Gods and Heroes adds a little of this "thrill" back into the game! imageimage

    Carebear
    *WoW = Level 60 Priest*
    *EQ2 = Level 25 Druid*

  • Veiled_lightVeiled_light Member UncommonPosts: 836

    EQ has more players than EQ2, altho they both have what you say

    EQ = over 400k population

    EQ2 = 200k - 300k

  • kmimmorpgkmimmorpg Member Posts: 624

    I'm one of those players who aren't familiar with the good ole days of EQ. I wish I had known about it back then - I have a feeling I would have been hooked. But now after playing games like CoH, EQ2 and WoW I probably wouldn't last long if I tried to play EQ today.

    Players that started around the time I did: cry when we get XP debt (CoH and EQ2), want a golden line (EQ2) or a tombstone (WoW) that shows were corpses are, complain when we have to travel across an area to get to our corpse (WoW and EQ2), grind to get a travel ability like super speed or super jump (CoH) and grind for epic mounts that give us 100% speed increase (WoW). Even a reward for being a top player is extra flight paths to other areas.

    I'm not saying all of this is a good thing, but this is what we (fairly new players) are used to. I can't imagine there being an outcry to go "backwards". Then again several people on this board voted for permadeath, so perhaps a hardcore game would garner a decent following.

     

  • TymoraTymora Member UncommonPosts: 1,295

    I see what you mean.  I miss the hardcore aspect of Everquest.  I think the difficult was something that made it addicting, not necessarily fun.

    Everquest II has done away with much of the hardcore aspects of the original, but still has some hardcore appeal in the sheer volume of content.  Now instead of trying to overcome a certain obstacle that was tough to beat, I am trying to accomplish many more obstacles that are not as difficult.

    There is still eating and drinking in EQ2, but again, it has less of an impact on gameplay.  Instant travel is something I have mixed opinions about.  If I've got an hour to play, and I spend 30 minutes trekking across the land, I get angry.  Then again, when I can get up and goto where ever I want in the blink of an eye, it ruins the scale of the gameworld for me.  Even if there is a sense that my character actually travelled a great distance - I am thinking what the old design in Middle Earth Online had planned, which was to show a cutscene of your character on a wagon headed down  the road.

    Now that I brought up the old MEO design, I can really get into my rant about  Hardcore styles of gameplay . . . but I won't.  To make it short, I liked their original idea of permantent death.  I wouldn't like it in most other mmorpgs, but for Middle Earth, it just seems to fit.

    So my take on hardcore gameplay is different for each mmorpg I try.  The bottom line is that if the game is fun, I don't mind whether it's hardcore or more casual. 

  • NorgothNorgoth Member Posts: 7

    I have not played EQLive in a long time(I should mention that I am a graphics junky too. So I like to play games with top lvl graphics). Doesn't EQLive now have gravesites where you can retrieve your corpse? Doesn't that eliminate the need for CR? Also, if I remember correctly you no longer can lose a lvl from the death penalty. I remember in EQLive falling through some hole in the ground that was placed in some tree trunk(was it in blackburrow?). I fell through and the gnolls killed me. I had to beg, plead, cajol, a higher lvl player to come and get my corpse for me. I had literaly given up hope on my character. I thought it was all over and I would have to restart a new toon. I think I was virtually sweating. That for me=fun. Of course, the negative of this aspect was that you could end up staying awake for a ton of hours on corpse retrievel. It was not good for the relationship with my wife.

    Also, I do not think I am a fan of instancing. I most definitely realize the benefit but it seems to take away from the true social aspect of the game. I dont know, maybe I would be happy if they simply recreate EQLive with new graphics, etc.

     

     

  • angerrangerr Member Posts: 865
    yes there is quite a few people out there that want the old skool challange of eq1 pre kunark, you are not alone! the only game i have seen like that, thats comming out is vanguard or maybe darkfall but who knows when either of those games are comming out...

    image

    read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....

  • carebearcarebear Member Posts: 188



    Originally posted by Norgoth

    I have not played EQLive in a long time(I should mention that I am a graphics junky too. So I like to play games with top lvl graphics). Doesn't EQLive now have gravesites where you can retrieve your corpse? Doesn't that eliminate the need for CR? Also, if I remember correctly you no longer can lose a lvl from the death penalty. I remember in EQLive falling through some hole in the ground that was placed in some tree trunk(was it in blackburrow?). I fell through and the gnolls killed me. I had to beg, plead, cajol, a higher lvl player to come and get my corpse for me. I had literaly given up hope on my character. I thought it was all over and I would have to restart a new toon. I think I was virtually sweating. That for me=fun. Of course, the negative of this aspect was that you could end up staying awake for a ton of hours on corpse retrievel. It was not good for the relationship with my wife.
    Also, I do not think I am a fan of instancing. I most definitely realize the benefit but it seems to take away from the true social aspect of the game. I dont know, maybe I would be happy if they simply recreate EQLive with new graphics, etc.
     
     



    I have a good friend who still plays. She says that in the Planes of Power zones, there are graveyards in each zone that will pop your corpse after 15 min. There is also a zone called Shadowrest where after your corpse has been there for a real-time week, instead of permanently rotting, it gets moved there for you to retrieve. With the latest expansion, they added a Guild Lobby where for a couple hundred plat, you can summon all your corpses to that zone. My friend says she uses the guild lobby alot since she dies alot in places that are just too hard or annoying to return to without equipment. image

    Carebear
    *WoW = Level 60 Priest*
    *EQ2 = Level 25 Druid*

  • psydexpsydex Member Posts: 187



    Originally posted by Norgoth
    When EQ first came out, I simply loved the hardcore aspects. I am referring to the death penalty, corpse retrieval, inability to teleport everywhere instantly, food and drinking necessity, etc. The rush I got from the difficulty of EQ made it fun for me. The games now have become easier with respect to risk taking. Now, if things go wrong simply port out, die, etc. It makes no difference IMO. I was wondering how other people feel about this and whether there is a game in development that harkens back to the original difficulties of EQ?


    My suggestion would be to try out final fantasy XI. The game is incredibly hard and has alot of the aspects you are talking about. The only problem is it's hard to find in stores since most places have it back ordered or sold out. Just a suggestion :)
  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    Having played EQ when there was no Kunark I can attest to the challenge that that style of gameplay brought. I can also attest to the immense frustration it brought. I don't miss it at all, though it certainly created some highly memorable moments.

  • WillJones420WillJones420 Member Posts: 263



    Originally posted by Norgoth
    When EQ first came out, I simply loved the hardcore aspects. I am referring to the death penalty, corpse retrieval, inability to teleport everywhere instantly, food and drinking necessity, etc. The rush I got from the difficulty of EQ made it fun for me. The games now have become easier with respect to risk taking. Now, if things go wrong simply port out, die, etc. It makes no difference IMO. I was wondering how other people feel about this and whether there is a game in development that harkens back to the original difficulties of EQ?


    I admit that there's a lot about EQ that I miss that MMO's today, even WoW, don't have.  Many of the reasons stated above are some very good ones.  Mostly I miss the socialism aspect of EQ.  There some great people out there that I've come across, as well as some absolute asscaps, and it did keep the game interesting.  One thing that I will never miss is the constant camping you had to do to excell in the game.  Camp in one spot for eight hours just to increase a half a level or more?  Two days sometimes to get one piece of good equipment?  This was a good bulk of EQ's gameplay and one of the things that made most of the "non-hardcore" players throw up their hands and leave.
  • zensaberzensaber Member UncommonPosts: 787

    the olde EQ rocked we all know that but I doupt you will see anything like this in the future. I myself find that when the orignal EQ came out and to date it's the only game where I felt I was really in the game if you know what i mean.

  • n2soonersn2sooners Member UncommonPosts: 926

    If death isn't downright a pain in the ***, then there is no fear of death. And with no fear of death, there is no real rush when doing something extremely hard. EQ made death painful, and so it had the best rush when something was accomplished.

    EQ was called Evercrack for a reason. The new games only offer a sugar high in comparison.

    image image

  • NorgothNorgoth Member Posts: 7
    I completely agree with n2sooners. Also,(ignite your flames), I did not mind the camping so much. It gave me something to try to accomplish that might take a long time. Nowadays, everything is easily accomplished and we are left with quick leveling. I was in no rush to level up in EQLive. It was dangerous to try and do so.
  • NoubourneNoubourne Member Posts: 349

    If EQ1 still has 400k subscribers, then how do they pack them all onto the decreased number of servers (16 now down from 32 I think)? They just did a pile of server mergers. I suppose this was a reaction to their population staying the same with the 400k subscribers they had 18 months ago? That makes sense, right? No, it doesn't. If EQLive pops were still 400k, no servers would have been merged.

    I would venture to say all station accounts together add up to 400-500k. That includes SWG, Planetside, and both EQs.

    AO has fairly hardcore rules as far as MMOs go. Otherwise, Vanguard it is I think too.

    Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Noubourne
    If EQ1 still has 400k subscribers, then how do they pack them all onto the decreased number of servers (16 now down from 32 I think)? They just did a pile of server mergers. I suppose this was a reaction to their population staying the same with the 400k subscribers they had 18 months ago? That makes sense, right? No, it doesn't. If EQLive pops were still 400k, no servers would have been merged.

    You have any idea how many zones are in EQ now? People are spread way the hell out.

  • SpornSporn Member Posts: 259

    Could it be possible since mmorpg's have seemed to be dumbed down to bring in more players to make more money, that players who would not have survived in a hardcore game like original EQ or Uo will be more likely to give a hardcore title a chance in the future?  Mebe all of the non harcore games we see now will result in more hardcore mmorpg's as the mass's demand more depth once again.

     

    just some thoughts peace

  • LidaleLidale Member Posts: 88

    loosing hours of work in 1 death does not = fun gameplay imo

    edit: tho I used to like those console games like sonic and mario where u could loose all of your progress by loosing too many times =P

    image
  • NorgothNorgoth Member Posts: 7
    Sporn, I would venture to say that is exactly why they have changed the rules of the mmogs. The vast majority of people do not want to experience what Lidale speaks of below. However, I believe that the real issue is in the phrase "loosing hours of work"(should be losing, but np). Those words seem to imply that the goal of the game is to level up. To me the goal of the game is to have a good social experience, some dangerous and risky gaming fun, and to advance forward at the pace dictated by those two issues. The leveling for me was a result, not a goal. The goal was to have fun, and I did not equate that with leveling up.
  • LidaleLidale Member Posts: 88

    I guess thats why raganrok online as so addictive....  leveling was never bad and the social experience was great

    image
  • -KitFox--KitFox- Member Posts: 26


    I would venture to say all station accounts together add up to 400-500k. That includes SWG, Planetside, and both EQs.

    Last month's research by a market consultant (cannot find the source, sorry) stated that EQLive is at 420,000 pop. down from 500k + half a year ago. EQ2 is at 210,000, and SWG at 170,000. Not that bad, but certainly pales in comparison to World of Warcraft.

    Alot of people are posting Vanguard is just another EQ2 "clone";true, the majority of the main developers created the original EQ, but this fact does not indicate that their new game will in fact be a clone, or some half bit copy - I have put my faith in the designers because many of them brought us this genre, and revolutionized online gaming.

    I am active on the forums, and what goes on there and in the FAQ assures me that my hopes are not in vain, that this game may re-revolutionize the genre that is quickly becoming flooded with games trying to cater to the entire population (thus dumbing down their content and challenge to appeal to the casual gamers as well), and that this game is NOT remake of EQ2 - I would ask that all of you, if you care about this genre even an inkling, do some research before listening to the accusations and false perceptions about Vanguard...the differences are vast between - if you want to look beyond a first impression- EQ2 and other game(s) on the market. It is a niche game, and will attract the veteran crowd I have no doubt, that being said, it is coined as a 3rd generation MMORPG for good reason ---- check out these E3 Reports and CCG Movie:

    http://www.thesafehouse.org/viewforum.php?f=18

    ::::32:: Enjoy!

    "when life knocks you to your knees...well, thats the best posistion to pray in, isn't it ?"

  • kmimmorpgkmimmorpg Member Posts: 624



    Originally posted by Sporn

    Could it be possible since mmorpg's have seemed to be dumbed down to bring in more players to make more money, that players who would not have survived in a hardcore game like original EQ or Uo will be more likely to give a hardcore title a chance in the future?  Mebe all of the non harcore games we see now will result in more hardcore mmorpg's as the mass's demand more depth once again.



    Not exactly sure in what context you mean that gameplay has been "dumbed down".  But if it is what I think you mean, and that is a game having mechanics that cause you to have to play several hours non-stop, versus playing something a few hours at a time - that is not dumbing it down. Its realizing the fact some people have a job they sit at for 8 hours (or more) a day. And those same people don't want to sit and play a game for 8 hours too. That's a lot of ass-sitting!
  • PeterPainPeterPain Member Posts: 41

    Agree, I think the days of hardcore gameplay are ending. I don't think I'll miss them.

  • NorgothNorgoth Member Posts: 7
    I am wondering whether a simple change to the death penalties would be sufficient incentive for me. If death was really meaningful in a game it might make the adventuring so much more fun. And the fact that there is a substantial death penalty does not make it necessary to play for several hours. It just makes adventuring and taking risks so much more meaningful.
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