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The one time i should of listened to the nay sayers lol.

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Comments

  • DaakkonDaakkon Member UncommonPosts: 607
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Albatroes
    Honestly, I blame the company for selling alpha/beta/whatever access to people. Sure its his fault for not doing proper research before making a purchase, but every company is trying and will continue to try and make money off of idiots like this. This has to stop.

    lolwut? So companies aren't supposed to offer the rest of us a product or service because some people don't have the common sense to take responsibility for themselves? I don't think so. I would like to continue making my own choices thank you and not have them made for me because some people are foolish.

    Here's a tip to the OP: Don't play or buy into early access. Wait for games to release. Some people aren't suited for early adoption and development and some are. It doesn't seem like early adoption suits you.

    Maybe he's one of those people that thinks software is perfect and easy to make.

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Originally posted by jtripper
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    So your one of the people who believe a game that has all the features it going to have, a cash shop where you can buy all sorts of stuff, and the game saves it progress is a Open BETA game. Lol if you follow elite and dangerous it is in closed beta, and when beta started all you could do was fly into a space station. Yet this alpha game, which has most of its core features, that arent going to change is pre alpha because some one typed that into the code to pop on the screen. I gots ya

    I am an Elite: Dangerous backer.....and your point?  Frontier Games and Portalarium have different dev processes and milestones.  Do you even know what you're talking about?

    Rather than spend a year developing a feature nobody likes or isn't fun, they can prototype it in a month, unleash it in all its ugly glory and get immediate feedback.  If it's not fun or is stupid, they would have only wasted a month or so, rather than a year and be forced to release crap or go back to the drawing board.

    So yes, they have completely changed things around (overland map controversy is a big example) as that is the entire point of the way they're doing these early test releases.  They even have said this publicly multiple times on the forums and in interviews and is one of the reasons why they are letting backers test so early.

    You arent following my point, the words alpha beta open beta and release have no concrete backing. It is different to every one, so using it in this conversation as your point as to why i shouldent be upset they are focusing more on housing then on severs.

    All ive seen so far, is a bunch of hate towards me because i want to back out of supporting the game, because i dont like how they are using their time and money, and focusing more on trying to sell houses then fixing the game. How that makes me a idiot, loser, fool ect is beyond me.

    Even having the idea it seems that you dont like how a game is going, and vocieing ones concern about it, and wanting to back out is just a terrible concept. Once you buy something apparantley you gotta be happy with it, and support it to the end, or your a idiot, loser, fool.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Albatroes
    Honestly, I blame the company for selling alpha/beta/whatever access to people. Sure its his fault for not doing proper research before making a purchase, but every company is trying and will continue to try and make money off of idiots like this. This has to stop.

    lolwut? So companies aren't supposed to offer the rest of us a product or service because some people don't have the common sense to take responsibility for themselves? I don't think so. I would like to continue making my own choices thank you and not have them made for me because some people are foolish.

    Here's a tip to the OP: Don't play or buy into early access. Wait for games to release. Some people aren't suited for early adoption and development and some are. It doesn't seem like early adoption suits you.

    So to you, i cant buy something not like it at all after i tried it, and tell people i dont like it, and should of listened to the other people that said they didnt like it ethier. I gotta do what you people do, and only spend my money how you tell me i should, and if i dont i am a fool.

     

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    So now I am a shit head, because i paid to try the game out to see if i liked it. I didnt buy it to test it, I am not going to do their work for them. It doesnt say in any discription by buying this you are subject to test the game for us, and give us feed back.

    God you people are evil, calling me all sorts of names for no reason. What is making you so made about me buying a game, I didnt like how they were doing, and where they are going, so i quit the game. What the hell......

    Any ways I am done talking about with you people. You dont focus on anything, it went from me explaining how i dont like how they focus on housing more than server stability and bug. To some war about ethics of corporations, and selling early access, to calling me a bunch of names, to a bunch of nonsense about alpha and beta, that has nothing to do with anything i said.

    Good job stealing my post, and turning it into 4 pages of name calling garbage.

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    LOL, you entered the arena the moment you made the post.  If you didn't want to defend yourself, you really shouldn't have post.  People who post here, do so knowing that their parentage will be questioned with due diligence.  Don't act so surprised.
  • Aragon100Aragon100 Member RarePosts: 2,686
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    So now I am a shit head, because i paid to try the game out to see if i liked it. I didnt buy it to test it, I am not going to do their work for them. It doesnt say in any discription by buying this you are subject to test the game for us, and give us feed back.

    God you people are evil, calling me all sorts of names for no reason. What is making you so made about me buying a game, I didnt like how they were doing, and where they are going, so i quit the game. What the hell......

    Don't take it personal. 

    I have been on the SotA forums and the acceptance of balanced criticism as your's is very low. Nay sayers as you and me isn't popular cause for some reason fanbois see us as a threat to their future game.

    But they have gotten it wrong. Criticism is a games best friend. What matters is if developers listen to it.

    And i do agree, houses have taken a unproportional time and effort from other more important features like PvP and a fun combat system. Lag spikes you mentioned earlier isn't your computers fault, it is a game that have issues.

    And i see it like you do, this game isn't pre-alpha since it is supposed to be released december 2014.

    Estimated release date for episode 1 is december 2014.

    http://sotawiki.net/sota/Release_Dates

  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,499
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by jtripper

    Just to clear things up, the game is pre-alpha.  It's not even alpha.  Here's a screenshot, which clearly shows in the top left at what stage the builds are in.

     

    So your one of the people who believe a game that has all the features it going to have, a cash shop where you can buy all sorts of stuff, and the game saves it progress is a Open BETA game. Lol if you follow elite and dangerous it is in closed beta, and when beta started all you could do was fly into a space station. Yet this alpha game, which has most of its core features, that arent going to change is pre alpha because some one typed that into the code to pop on the screen. I gots ya

    The game is alpha no matter what tag you want to put on it.  The developer is using alpha as the tag.  It doesn't matter if they don't change a single item in the game it is Alpha.  Consumers do not get to label what stage a developer is in.  Yes different companies use the words Alpha, Beta, etc.... for different things.  Developers today can't afford to do the close door alpha's of the 80's and 90's were no one but the developers and family play the game and test it because the expense of games have exploded over the years.  I have been testing games for close to 30 years, have family that works for blizzard, etc... and will tell you that alphas today are the betas of 20 plus years ago, but they are what is considered alpha today.  They could drop the entire game and choose an new engine and nothing anyone that paided to get into the alpha can do about it because it is alpha.  That is why they don't change the label until they are ready to do so.  As long as it is behind the terms of an alpha agreement the developer has total control of the game. 

  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,499
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    So now I am a shit head, because i paid to try the game out to see if i liked it. I didnt buy it to test it, I am not going to do their work for them. It doesnt say in any discription by buying this you are subject to test the game for us, and give us feed back.

    God you people are evil, calling me all sorts of names for no reason. What is making you so made about me buying a game, I didnt like how they were doing, and where they are going, so i quit the game. What the hell......

    Any ways I am done talking about with you people. You dont focus on anything, it went from me explaining how i dont like how they focus on housing more than server stability and bug. To some war about ethics of corporations, and selling early access, to calling me a bunch of names, to a bunch of nonsense about alpha and beta, that has nothing to do with anything i said.

    Good job stealing my post, and turning it into 4 pages of name calling garbage.

    I didn't get to your post here till after I posted my earlier response.  This is the main problem today with alphas and betas, people expect a game to play.  Now read that again, a game to play not test.  The whole purpose of alphas and betas is to test a game.  If you don't want to test a game you shouldn't be part of an alpha or beta.  You don't pay to try out a game.  Next time you may just want to wait and play a finished version of a game instead of trying to play something that gets wiped etc.....

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    then why did you buy it? you knew the risks of throwing money at kickstarters and the likes. And you still did it. I played the Alpha very recently and in its current state the game cannot be anyway near ending its development cycle as you say. Im looking forward to playing again after launch, but no, i am not paying for development of games through kickstarters and such.... I will pay for the released product.





  • Joseph_KerrJoseph_Kerr Member RarePosts: 1,113
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Common sense isn't so common.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    So now I am a shit head, because i paid to try the game out to see if i liked it. I didnt buy it to test it, I am not going to do their work for them. It doesnt say in any discription by buying this you are subject to test the game for us, and give us feed back.

    God you people are evil, calling me all sorts of names for no reason. What is making you so made about me buying a game, I didnt like how they were doing, and where they are going, so i quit the game. What the hell......

    Any ways I am done talking about with you people. You dont focus on anything, it went from me explaining how i dont like how they focus on housing more than server stability and bug. To some war about ethics of corporations, and selling early access, to calling me a bunch of names, to a bunch of nonsense about alpha and beta, that has nothing to do with anything i said.

    Good job stealing my post, and turning it into 4 pages of name calling garbage.

    First of all, they aren't offering a paid trial, you're paying for the game. Just like any other retail store, they won't refund your money because you don't like it. If you pre-ordered something horrible then, well, sorry. I don't think this needs to be said, but it's not the first time that it comes up either, so maybe it does. 

     

    I don't think that the focus has been on your not liking something, the focus has been on your making assumptions about where the money you invested is being spent, what their priorities are and how it's only a money grab. Basically, talking out your ass about things you (and nobody else) has any clue about except for those on the development team. 

     

    If you'd like to create a constructive post, I'm sure you'd get constructive feedback, but if you're not creating a post that says "The devs don't care about this game" along with a screenshot from the official forums where the moderators are saying, "Our focus is on selling houses right now, not developing a product or fixing bugs." then you're basically contributing to the same filth and refuse that you're having flung at you right now. 

     

     

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by makasouleater69
    Originally posted by Mizzoufan
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Well i bought this, and i just hope some one on the official forums will buy it. I say this, because the devs that are making this have serious issues on how to fix stuff at what time. The game as it stands is unplayable, but they keep going on and on and on about their garbage house system, and trying to get people to buy their 12000 dollar castle.

    When you meet people in this game, they skip all over the screen. Pvp is this, you smack the guy think your hitting him, and he jumps all over the place. Instead of this being the main focus though, you go to official releases, and what they are saying. They are focused on houses lol.

    You're complaining about a game that has just recently hit it's alpha stage? Here's food for thought. Don't purchase something that isn't finished and then bitch about it being broken. Jesus, is the world losing its capability to use common sense?!?!

    Apparantly you arent. The game is not in alpha, just because they say it is. They are into the end stages of their development. With a release planned for the end of the year. Not to mention I am not complaining about it being broken, I am complaining about them just doing stuff with houses and stuff of that nature, when the server doesnt even work

    So common sense you say, well any game dev that spends 7 months on houses when you cant even connect with out lag, has no common sense and i dont want anything to do with it.

    So do players decide what stage of development they are in now ? 

    It seems every time a company lets people buy into their development you run into a fool who's been parted with their money.

    That is what happens when developers let money do their alpha testing. they get shitheads who have no idea how to test a game and thinks with their wallet. developers need to do "real" alpha test with hired  professional gamers. this is how they shoot themselves in their legs.  

    So now I am a shit head, because i paid to try the game out to see if i liked it. I didnt buy it to test it, I am not going to do their work for them. It doesnt say in any discription by buying this you are subject to test the game for us, and give us feed back.

    God you people are evil, calling me all sorts of names for no reason. What is making you so made about me buying a game, I didnt like how they were doing, and where they are going, so i quit the game. What the hell......

    Don't take it personal. 

    I have been on the SotA forums and the acceptance of balanced criticism as your's is very low. Nay sayers as you and me isn't popular cause for some reason fanbois see us as a threat to their future game.

    But they have gotten it wrong. Criticism is a games best friend. What matters is if developers listen to it.

    And i do agree, houses have taken a unproportional time and effort from other more important features like PvP and a fun combat system. Lag spikes you mentioned earlier isn't your computers fault, it is a game that have issues.

    And i see it like you do, this game isn't pre-alpha since it is supposed to be released december 2014.

    Estimated release date for episode 1 is december 2014.

    http://sotawiki.net/sota/Release_Dates

    If 100 players playing the game with 0 issues and 2 are lagging, where is the "real" problem? common sense seems like a lost ability of human race now. And welcome back to trolling sota, we really missed you aragon.

    And OP go read their website properly, no you are not obliged to give them feedback but the fact is that the game is alpha and a gamer's common sense should tell him that if he is playing an alpha game he is suppose to test it and submit bug report and feedback. but since you are thinking with your wallet as you have indicated multiple time in all your posts in this thread it is normal you will be irritated by the bugs in an alpha game.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

     

    Your first and only mistake was that you expected to play a game that's not ready to be played.  It is in alpha stage.  Alpha stage games are not in playable condition by any stretch of the imagination.  Its a testing stage.  Many changes will be made before release and it is entirely possible that the released version will not resemble its current state in any way.  Try not to be offended by the advice given in this thread.  Some of it may be blunt and harsh, but I hope it has succeeded in educating you on the matter. 

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,033
    I have to be honest.  This thread was amusing to read.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    If people actually took the time to read what I typed and thought for a second, you would realize that alpha/cb testing were usually free to join before this whole buy in barrage began. So yeah, if one company can get away with it, so many others will too. Sure you have the right to utilize your money the way you see fit, but your individual actions can spark things. As far as the OP is concerned, he honestly could've looked on youtube since there are plenty of videos pertaining to the state of this game on a weekly basis. Hell, I did before I got into the beta for free, which it seemed ok, but isn't really my type of game atm. Making purchases period require some level of research such as googling and so on if you have a brain in your head. I do it so much, and so many others probably do to, that its second nature. The company defines what alpha/closed beta stages are, not the player.
This discussion has been closed.