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Characters in Everquest Next are they in the Uncanny valley

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  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,956
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by jusomdude

    MMOs aren't really suited for state of the art graphics. They have to display too much at a time. Life like graphics would just kill even top end systems.

    Anyhow, I love stylized graphics. Love EQN/Landmark character looks. I get enough realistic graphics in real life.

         I agree.. I can do with less "life like" and more performance..  I don't have a problem with stylized like EQN and GW2 art.. Heck I even liked WoW..  However, I think the world terrain can be toned down a bit..  To my eyes, the world is more "life like" then the avatars in the game..  They don't seem to match.. 

         Anyways.. the reason I responded and wanted to add.. I would love to see less flash eye candy combat and allow today's machines to shine with combat performance.. I remember when lag was a huge problem when you get 30 or more people in a tight area.. Now, we have the technology to deal with that, but what did we do, we elevated the bar again (more detail) that still required our video cards to draw too much and lag is still a problem..  Grrrrr..  An example would be a ranger.. Do I really need to see some flash lightening bolt coming from bow where it looks like I'm stuck in some star wars combat scene?   NO.. I don't..   When my warrior does a sweep move with his sward, do we need to see a rainbow of colors?  NO..

         Just my 2 cp

     

    Good lord, I agree with that remark entirely. 

     

    Overdone animations are one of the worst parts of new MMOs, mainly because they are putting the animations on the wrong end (particle effects) as opposed to the right end (body animations).

     

    Body animations can be used to differentiate attacks and create exciting, expressive skills. See Aion for a good example of how to design even the most over-the-top martial animations.

     

    Particle effects are necessary, but must be used SPARINGLY. Otherwise you end up with ridiculous amounts of visual clutter - see Guild Wars 2. 

     

    And, for the love of God, MMOs really need to move away from this trope of massive, glowing weapons and armor that fill the screen with tacky, overdone particles all to appease a crowd that likes shiny things.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by jusomdude

    MMOs aren't really suited for state of the art graphics. They have to display too much at a time. Life like graphics would just kill even top end systems.

    Anyhow, I love stylized graphics. Love EQN/Landmark character looks. I get enough realistic graphics in real life.

         I agree.. I can do with less "life like" and more performance..  I don't have a problem with stylized like EQN and GW2 art.. Heck I even liked WoW..  However, I think the world terrain can be toned down a bit..  To my eyes, the world is more "life like" then the avatars in the game..  They don't seem to match.. 

         Anyways.. the reason I responded and wanted to add.. I would love to see less flash eye candy combat and allow today's machines to shine with combat performance.. I remember when lag was a huge problem when you get 30 or more people in a tight area.. Now, we have the technology to deal with that, but what did we do, we elevated the bar again (more detail) that still required our video cards to draw too much and lag is still a problem..  Grrrrr..  An example would be a ranger.. Do I really need to see some flash lightening bolt coming from bow where it looks like I'm stuck in some star wars combat scene?   NO.. I don't..   When my warrior does a sweep move with his sward, do we need to see a rainbow of colors?  NO..

         Just my 2 cp

     

    Good lord, I agree with that remark entirely. 

     

    Overdone animations are one of the worst parts of new MMOs, mainly because they are putting the animations on the wrong end (particle effects) as opposed to the right end (body animations).

     

    Body animations can be used to differentiate attacks and create exciting, expressive skills. See Aion for a good example of how to design even the most over-the-top martial animations.

     

    Particle effects are necessary, but must be used SPARINGLY. Otherwise you end up with ridiculous amounts of visual clutter - see Guild Wars 2. 

     

    And, for the love of God, MMOs really need to move away from this trope of massive, glowing weapons and armor that fill the screen with tacky, overdone particles all to appease a crowd that likes shiny things.

     

    I also think some of the effects could be toned down a bit.  The Warrior slash and hit effect was the biggest example of this that I seen in the video.  My hope is that some of the effects are "bigger" on purpose for testing synch between the slice animation, particle and enemy reaction animation but we'll see. I'm not in design but I imagine scaling the effect itself isn't entirely hard. I did like the Tempest effect when they turned to lightning.  I like fancy effects, just not over the top without reason.

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Member UncommonPosts: 2,225
    Is is "Uncanny Valley" or "Happy Valley"?  Because, if it's the latter, I want to know if they're making "JoPa" an NPC.
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by jusomdude

    MMOs aren't really suited for state of the art graphics. They have to display too much at a time. Life like graphics would just kill even top end systems.

    Anyhow, I love stylized graphics. Love EQN/Landmark character looks. I get enough realistic graphics in real life.

         I agree.. I can do with less "life like" and more performance..  I don't have a problem with stylized like EQN and GW2 art.. Heck I even liked WoW..  However, I think the world terrain can be toned down a bit..  To my eyes, the world is more "life like" then the avatars in the game..  They don't seem to match.. 

         Anyways.. the reason I responded and wanted to add.. I would love to see less flash eye candy combat and allow today's machines to shine with combat performance.. I remember when lag was a huge problem when you get 30 or more people in a tight area.. Now, we have the technology to deal with that, but what did we do, we elevated the bar again (more detail) that still required our video cards to draw too much and lag is still a problem..  Grrrrr..  An example would be a ranger.. Do I really need to see some flash lightening bolt coming from bow where it looks like I'm stuck in some star wars combat scene?   NO.. I don't..   When my warrior does a sweep move with his sward, do we need to see a rainbow of colors?  NO..

         Just my 2 cp

     

    Good lord, I agree with that remark entirely. 

     

    Overdone animations are one of the worst parts of new MMOs, mainly because they are putting the animations on the wrong end (particle effects) as opposed to the right end (body animations).

     

    Body animations can be used to differentiate attacks and create exciting, expressive skills. See Aion for a good example of how to design even the most over-the-top martial animations.

     

    Particle effects are necessary, but must be used SPARINGLY. Otherwise you end up with ridiculous amounts of visual clutter - see Guild Wars 2. 

     

    And, for the love of God, MMOs really need to move away from this trope of massive, glowing weapons and armor that fill the screen with tacky, overdone particles all to appease a crowd that likes shiny things.

    I completely agree with the AION comment and combat..  I don't mind minor visual effect, and prefer more of the visual combat movement.   I would rather see a Warrior have 10 different movements, then 10 different over the top particle effects that clutter my screen up like fireworks.. 

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,622
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    EQN is using a stylised art style so I am not sure your question is really valid as the stuff about uncanny Valley relates to using a realistic art style, which EQN is not.

    So many people use this "excuse" and it is not valid what so ever.Just because you call something stylistic  does not mean it can't be HD or high poly mesh or use detailed textues,the term stylistic is not an excuse.

    having said that i don't need high end graphics to be "satisfied" so long as they are decent enough.Example i don't like Blizzard's use of textures they are very low end and imo ugly,i don't like any game that uses low detail textures with say for example one color palette textures.I also see that same cheap look in many games effects instead of using multi layered /animated textures ,i call it effort,you either put it into your game or you don't.

    For me a games ability to keep me interested is in it's combat/mob design, if it is too simple i get bored fast because all i do is spam hot bar icons and don't think at all.This is because i know as well as everyone else SHOULD realize that once you start the game your character is covered in gear so the model is almost meaningless.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Member UncommonPosts: 689

    God damn those cartoony graphics! I want ultra realism like Everquest 1!!!!!

     

    Oh wait...

    http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9173/dwarfx.jpg

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
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  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,671
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    As already stated by others, uncanny valley applies when anything, (robots, video games, movie CGI, paintings, etc) trying to look ultra-realistic, but are slightly off, so it looks weird/creepy.

    EQN is stylized in it's character art, so Uncanny Valley doesn't apply here.

     

    Uncanny valley applies no matter what - as it's "emotional response curve experienced by humans observing lifelike non-human entities."

    The curve varies slightly for each person - so *any* graphics could potentially fall into Uncanny Valley for someone.

     

    So saying it doesn't apply to ALL - because it doesn't apply to YOU - is simply false.

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,671
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    EQN char models would be to the left of that uncanny valley. Before you get to creepy on the right of it. EQN shoots for over sized eyes and expression that are larger then life. Thats how you know its stylized. 

    "EQN char models would be to the left of that uncanny valley. " 

    For you. For some they might fit smack in the middle of it.

    It's not the same for everyone.

    The uncanny valley VARIES from person to person. There are entire cultures that might find a particular stylized graphics very creepy.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by DMKano

     

    "EQN char models would be to the left of that uncanny valley. " 

    For you. For some they might fit smack in the middle of it.

    It's not the same for everyone.

    The uncanny valley VARIES from person to person. There are entire cultures that might find a particular stylized graphics very creepy.

    I am sure there are tribes in the deepest jungles that would see ANY graphical representation of a human to be creepy. What is your point, that we should stop making games because someone, somewhere doesn't like them?

    The TARGET audience for Landmark and EQN is what is important here and the art style used is NOT anywhere near uncanny valley.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,671
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by DMKano

     

    "EQN char models would be to the left of that uncanny valley. " 

    For you. For some they might fit smack in the middle of it.

    It's not the same for everyone.

    The uncanny valley VARIES from person to person. There are entire cultures that might find a particular stylized graphics very creepy.

    I am sure there are tribes in the deepest jungles that would see ANY graphical representation of a human to be creepy. What is your point, that we should stop making games because someone, somewhere doesn't like them?

    How in the world did you come up with this conclusion? Did I even hint of such a thing - anywhere? 

    The TARGET audience for Landmark and EQN is what is important here and the art style used is NOT anywhere near uncanny valley.

    That's true for you, again you can't speak for what the emotional response might be for me or others.

     

    That's my entire point - confusing personal experience with universal truth.

     

     

  • itchmonitchmon Member UncommonPosts: 1,953
    i know it's been said in the thread before, but i agree, eq2 actually had the uncanny valley models (it certainly didnt help that they look(ed?) kinda plasticy.  Stylized models that are purposely non-realistic are going to have a leg-up at avoiding the valley.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

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  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by DMKano

     

    That's true for you, again you can't speak for what the emotional response might be for me or others.

     

    That's my entire point - confusing personal experience with universal truth.

     

     

    True but the industry as a whole can as it is their job. Ask any graphical artist if the graphics in EQN fit into the accepted model of what the uncanny valley is or not. Individual quirks shouldn't be taken into account when dealing with a mass market product.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,671
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by DMKano

     

    That's true for you, again you can't speak for what the emotional response might be for me or others.

     

    That's my entire point - confusing personal experience with universal truth.

     

     

    True but the industry as a whole can as it is their job. Ask any graphical artist if the graphics in EQN fit into the accepted model of what the uncanny valley is or not. Individual quirks shouldn't be taken into account when dealing with a mass market product.

    You are correct - a mass market product for a western audience.

    Ask any Korean graphics artists however - you'll hear a very different opinion.

     

     

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782

    A notice a lot of you don't really understand what uncanny valley actually is.

     

    "The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers. The "valley" refers to the dip in a graph of the comfort level of humans as subjects move toward a healthy, natural human likeness described in a function of a subject's aesthetic acceptability."

     

    That means cartoon graphics really can't fall into uncanny valley no matter who you are, as it's a very specific type of creepiness. 

     

    Just because a person finds a character in a game creepy doesn't mean they fall under the category of uncanny valley. I can show you 100s of different game character that look super creepy due to just plain bad modelling. However, that is an entirely different form of creepiness than what is experienced with uncanny valley. 

    If you have a person with a very blocky looking face and the eyes are slightly crooked ...that isn't uncanny valley. In order for it to be uncanny valley the character has to look and move very close to a human, but still be a little off.

     

    TL;DR ... if you find EQN characters to be creepy, it's not uncanny valley you are experienceing.

    ^^^ To me that is creepy, but that isn't uncanny valley. It's creepy for a whole different reason.

     

    Edit: Keep in mind I am not saying that it isn't the same exact feeling. It probably is pretty much the same feeling you would get from uncanny valley.

    Uncanny valley is just a specific category of that feeling I guess you could say. So if it doesn't fall under it being super realistic, but slightly off, than it isn't uncanny valley. It doesn't change on per person bases cause it's a specific definition.

  • TineaTinea Member UncommonPosts: 86
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987

    A notice a lot of you don't really understand what uncanny valley actually is.

     

    "The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers. The "valley" refers to the dip in a graph of the comfort level of humans as subjects move toward a healthy, natural human likeness described in a function of a subject's aesthetic acceptability."

     

    That means cartoon graphics really can't fall into uncanny valley no matter who you are, as it's a very specific type of creepiness. 

     

    Just because a person finds a character in a game creepy doesn't mean they fall under the category of uncanny valley. I can show you 100s of different game character that look super creepy due to just plain bad modelling. However, that is an entirely different form of creepiness than what is experienced with uncanny valley. 

    If you have a person with a very blocky looking face and the eyes are slightly crooked ...that isn't uncanny valley. In order for it to be uncanny valley the character has to look and move very close to a human, but still be a little off.

     

    TL;DR ... if you find EQN characters to be creepy, it's not uncanny valley you are experienceing.

    ^^^ To me that is creepy, but that isn't uncanny valley. It's creepy for a whole different reason.

     

    Edit: Keep in mind I am not saying that it isn't the same exact feeling. It probably is pretty much the same feeling you would get from uncanny valley.

    Uncanny valley is just a specific category of that feeling I guess you could say. So if it doesn't fall under it being super realistic, but slightly off, than it isn't uncanny valley. It doesn't change on per person bases cause it's a specific definition.

    Great post. I completely agree with Brabbit.  You can find any style of character creepy, but the Uncanny Valley has a specific definition -- and EQN isn't it.

    If the goal of the topic is to discuss how creepy EQN's characters are (regardless of the Uncanny Valley definition), then I agree with another previous post that states they are "Disney"-like.  They aren't creepy to me.  I think they would have to be uglier and more disproportioned to creep me out, but then they might be clown-creepy and not just creepy because of the cartoony style.

     

  • InfantryonlineInfantryonline Member Posts: 113
    I dont think cartoons can be nasty. I mean it has to be absolutely repulsive on first sight. And i cant think of any examples.

    ...That's essentially what being smug is. Acting like you're so blatantly right that even the thought of someone disagreeing with you is appallingly stupid and comical. you have a good chance of bullying them into believing you.

  • onidiusonidius Member Posts: 10

    Oh good another one of these pointless discussions; where the OP doesn't even understand the basics of stylized drawing and design. 

     

    Yay!

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