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Amazing article detailing the innovation of EQN and Storybricks

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  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Raelln
     

    It's not a fire and forget type of action here. It's not merely "enable a Storybricks module and now all your NPCs act intelligently". 

    Are you sure?

    Reason I ask is that they showed both the macro demo of Storybricks in action and the micro using in game action. The macro showed a 'risk' like board to show the overall large scale of how storybricks works in the world and the in game demo showed unscripted Dark Elves patrolling a castle, using teleporter pads to change locations and using a well of power if they came across it.

    It certainly looked like you set-up your NPC and the world, let them go, and they go for it. They follow objectives, interact with the world dynamically and made choices based on their profiles.

    I would ask why you are certain what they showed as part of the demo and using in game footage isn't possible?

    I am sure. There would have to be some amount (likely not insignificant) of effort from the devs using Storybrick to custom tailor the different NPCs (factions, beasts, etc etc) to behave differently - that is, unless they think their players would be content with orcs behaving the exact same way dark elves would - or humans acting the same way gnomes would.

    From my time playing EQ1 - I can't imagine players being happy with High Elves acting the same way and making the same automated decisions that Dark Elves do.

    To make them act differently insinuates some level of customization from the devs. 

  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Markusrind

    unscripted Dark Elves patrolling a castle

     

    There is no such thing as unscripted NPC...

    By unscripted I mean it wasn't told specifically what to do, it chose (using it's pre-defined role, wants and needs) to patrol the castle walls, to use the teleporter and to make use of the power focus because those activities and actions fitted what the NPC wanted to do.

    It could have easily not patrolled the walls (had it been given a lazy trait), not used the teleporter (if it wasn't curious) and not used the power focus (if it didn't need to do so).

     

    Of course there would need to be a script that controls the animations and possible choices but the actual choice of activity is not pre-scripted.

    ...but it was told specifically what to do by the default Storybrick's NPC script that was assigned to the Dark Elf. 

    For a NPC to just do something without a script would require the game to have sentience. At that point, I'd have to make the argument that it probably would no longer be a game and likely end up being a threat to the world.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,219
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Markusrind

    unscripted Dark Elves patrolling a castle

     

    There is no such thing as unscripted NPC...

    By unscripted I mean it wasn't told specifically what to do, it chose (using it's pre-defined role, wants and needs) to patrol the castle walls, to use the teleporter and to make use of the power focus because those activities and actions fitted what the NPC wanted to do.

    It could have easily not patrolled the walls (had it been given a lazy trait), not used the teleporter (if it wasn't curious) and not used the power focus (if it didn't need to do so).

     

    Of course there would need to be a script that controls the animations and possible choices but the actual choice of activity is not pre-scripted.

    ...but it was told specifically what to do by the default Storybrick's NPC script that was assigned to the Dark Elf. 

    For a NPC to just do something without a script would require the game to have sentience. At that point, I'd have to make the argument that it probably would no longer be a game and likely end up being a threat to the world.

    You guys are arguing over semantics.

    What they are trying to say when they say "it's unscripted" is that they weren't specifically given 5 things to do and they picked one of those 5 thigns and can only pick from 5 things. More likely than not they have a lot of choices and depending upon a variety of variables they pick from dozens and dozens.

    Of course they are limited to how many choices they are given as this isn't sci-fi AI. But it's not like, say, the skyrim creation kit where I set a path for some guard to patrol and they do that ad nauseum until they see the player and they attack.

    It's probably like "it's their turn to patrol (as opposed to their turn to do something else), they see the party, they react in several different ways due to what they 'see' which could be drink a potion for magic resistance if there is a mage, take cover, just use ranged from a better vantage point or even run away and get a suitable party to counter the player party. Note that I said "suitable party" and not "run away and grab the first npc's they find."

    I imagine that npc player choices are more along the lines of what goes into, say, a civilization game or some other 4X game.

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321

    Here is how Storybrick scripting works:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es#t=100

    It is essentially a quest builder. Many devs use something like that. CCP use similar tool to generate NPC missions.

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Markusrind

    unscripted Dark Elves patrolling a castle

     

    There is no such thing as unscripted NPC...

    By unscripted I mean it wasn't told specifically what to do, it chose (using it's pre-defined role, wants and needs) to patrol the castle walls, to use the teleporter and to make use of the power focus because those activities and actions fitted what the NPC wanted to do.

    It could have easily not patrolled the walls (had it been given a lazy trait), not used the teleporter (if it wasn't curious) and not used the power focus (if it didn't need to do so).

     

    Of course there would need to be a script that controls the animations and possible choices but the actual choice of activity is not pre-scripted.

    ...but it was told specifically what to do by the default Storybrick's NPC script that was assigned to the Dark Elf. 

    For a NPC to just do something without a script would require the game to have sentience. At that point, I'd have to make the argument that it probably would no longer be a game and likely end up being a threat to the world.

    You guys are arguing over semantics.

    What they are trying to say when they say "it's unscripted" is that they weren't specifically given 5 things to do and they picked one of those 5 thigns and can only pick from 5 things. More likely than not they have a lot of choices and depending upon a variety of variables they pick from dozens and dozens.

    Of course they are limited to how many choices they are given as this isn't sci-fi AI. But it's not like, say, the skyrim creation kit where I set a path for some guard to patrol and they do that ad nauseum until they see the player and they attack.

    It's probably like "it's their turn to patrol (as opposed to their turn to do something else), they see the party, they react in several different ways due to what they 'see' which could be drink a potion for magic resistance if there is a mage, take cover, just use ranged from a better vantage point or even run away and get a suitable party to counter the player party. Note that I said "suitable party" and not "run away and grab the first npc's they find."

    I imagine that npc player choices are more along the lines of what goes into, say, a civilization game or some other 4X game.

     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405

    I just can't believe nobody is talking about how this feature will become the new favorite tool of the griefers. I think that the complexity of this element will meet the vandal player base as a violent explosion of bad behaviors.

    This game will come down for several hours every night to adjust issues of NPC herding, glitched orc tribes running in circles, etc. As soon as people figure out how to get these things to KOS against players they will create EVE like traps for PvE folks as well. Unless they adjust for that Open World PvP by proxy will be the rule. Every player could become a PvP pet class with mobs doing their work for them.  

     

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • dandurindandurin Member UncommonPosts: 498

    As eager as I am to see what Storybricks is going to deliver, the promises are way too vague at this point.

     

    So I can "help the dryads" or "help the dark elves" and there are "no quests".  So what?  In the absence of quests, what exactly does "help the dryads" mean besides "Kill Dark Elves?"  If I could, for instance, reason out that planting trees in a certain pattern in a certain area would be a big benefit, that's cool.  If instead an NPC tells me it would be helpful, there's no innovation here.

     

    I get that each NPC is a faction unto himself, which has awesome potential in theory, but the devil is still in the details regarding the behavior choices my character has.  If it's just "NPC x wants a flower delivered to NPC y", does it really matter that there's no exclamation point over his head?

  • amx23amx23 Member Posts: 102
    Originally posted by dandurin

    As eager as I am to see what Storybricks is going to deliver, the promises are way too vague at this point.

     

    So I can "help the dryads" or "help the dark elves" and there are "no quests".  So what?  In the absence of quests, what exactly does "help the dryads" mean besides "Kill Dark Elves?"  If I could, for instance, reason out that planting trees in a certain pattern in a certain area would be a big benefit, that's cool.  If instead an NPC tells me it would be helpful, there's no innovation here.

     

    I get that each NPC is a faction unto himself, which has awesome potential in theory, but the devil is still in the details regarding the behavior choices my character has.  If it's just "NPC x wants a flower delivered to NPC y", does it really matter that there's no exclamation point over his head?

    "rebuild temples, help farmers with crops, open trade routes" are some of the examples in this article: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/21/soe-live-2014-more-everquest-next-tidbits/

     

    ive heard in rallying calls you could help by "cutting down trees, erecting a wall, digging tunnels" found here in the 2013 keynote (when they get to the rallying calls): 

     

    You can also gain abilities from achievements show in the classes panel, i believe its drink 500 mugs of ale: 

  • amx23amx23 Member Posts: 102
    Originally posted by dandurin

    As eager as I am to see what Storybricks is going to deliver, the promises are way too vague at this point.

     

    So I can "help the dryads" or "help the dark elves" and there are "no quests".  So what?  In the absence of quests, what exactly does "help the dryads" mean besides "Kill Dark Elves?"  If I could, for instance, reason out that planting trees in a certain pattern in a certain area would be a big benefit, that's cool.  If instead an NPC tells me it would be helpful, there's no innovation here.

     

    I get that each NPC is a faction unto himself, which has awesome potential in theory, but the devil is still in the details regarding the behavior choices my character has.  If it's just "NPC x wants a flower delivered to NPC y", does it really matter that there's no exclamation point over his head?

     

    Excerpt taken from Maelydd's post:

    "I certainly got the impression that quests can come from all sorts of places. While there might be hubs of civilization they do not have set quests and there are no static NPC's (outside of the fact they will be living in the same town) or mobs (again outside the generalized area in which they might currently be inhabiting).

    The Rohsong seems to not only be a book recording your deeds but also the way to get suggestions for what there is to do in the world. During the Dev brunch we got to spend 2 hours chatting with the devs and the one on the table I sat on went into quite some depth about the way the Rohsong book worked and how quests in general worked.

    Any NPC you speak to could potentially have a quest for you to undertake. They might need materials gathered or their barn cleared of vermin or items delivered but they would only be available when needed so you wouldn't be able to clear the barn of vermin only for the next guy to come along to get the same quest as you just did it.

    Then, depending on your standing with individuals, organisations, guilds, races, political factions or any other individual/group there might be more open quests such as helping reduce banditry in the region or killing off a local population of Orcs that are harassing the area. Several people might be given the task of helping and it may take quite a long time for such an activity to be completed.

    Another really cool thing is that there is the potential for unique quests just for your character should a need arise and your 'standing', past activities, skillset meet their requirements. An individual or 'faction' may seek YOU out for a task/quest.

    One of the other nice things mentioned was that there are lots of possible ways to complete certain quests. For example, say you have to reduce the Orc population. You might just do that by killing Orcs or you might realise that Orcs love weath, especially Gold, and so could achive the same thing by either protecting travellers (making the Orcs decide to move on and find an easier place to target travellers) or even go so far as to mine out all the local deposits of gold (which again might make the Orcs move on to look for other places with gold).

    The Rohsong will also provide clues as to where you might find quests fitting your play style. So if you happened to be a predominantly nature based build favouring combat it would suggest area's in the world where nature was under attack. An example given in the Storybricks presentation was on the druid lands being attacked by the Dark Elves. If you followed the suggestion of the Rohsong then you would travel to the area and help the local Druids defend their lands. Enough players do that and the Dark Elves get driven back, not enough and the Dark Elves might eventually take over the Druid lands and drive them all away. It also means that players can come into conflict, both through combat and in other ways to determine what happens. Although the outcome is dependent on many factors, player intervention in the world will have a very dramatic impact on what cam take place in the world.

    I am sure more information about how it all works will come out in due course and there are some things that still have an embargo but from conversations and watching the presentations the future looks bright.

     

     
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,219
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

  • MuntzMuntz Member UncommonPosts: 332
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

    Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

    Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

    Even bugs aren't random, you can easily reproduce bugs as long as you know how to reproduce them. Programming truly isn't random. If said orc goes to create a village there will be limited locations as to where that said village will be placed. otherwise you'll end up with some very... interesting issues.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • dandurindandurin Member UncommonPosts: 498
    Originally posted by amx23
    Originally posted by dandurin

    As eager as I am to see what Storybricks is going to deliver, the promises are way too vague at this point.

     

    So I can "help the dryads" or "help the dark elves" and there are "no quests".  So what?  In the absence of quests, what exactly does "help the dryads" mean besides "Kill Dark Elves?"  If I could, for instance, reason out that planting trees in a certain pattern in a certain area would be a big benefit, that's cool.  If instead an NPC tells me it would be helpful, there's no innovation here.

     

    I get that each NPC is a faction unto himself, which has awesome potential in theory, but the devil is still in the details regarding the behavior choices my character has.  If it's just "NPC x wants a flower delivered to NPC y", does it really matter that there's no exclamation point over his head?

     

    Excerpt taken from Maelydd's post:

    "I certainly got the impression that quests can come from all sorts of places. While there might be hubs of civilization they do not have set quests and there are no static NPC's (outside of the fact they will be living in the same town) or mobs (again outside the generalized area in which they might currently be inhabiting).

    The Rohsong seems to not only be a book recording your deeds but also the way to get suggestions for what there is to do in the world. During the Dev brunch we got to spend 2 hours chatting with the devs and the one on the table I sat on went into quite some depth about the way the Rohsong book worked and how quests in general worked.

    Any NPC you speak to could potentially have a quest for you to undertake. They might need materials gathered or their barn cleared of vermin or items delivered but they would only be available when needed so you wouldn't be able to clear the barn of vermin only for the next guy to come along to get the same quest as you just did it.

    Then, depending on your standing with individuals, organisations, guilds, races, political factions or any other individual/group there might be more open quests such as helping reduce banditry in the region or killing off a local population of Orcs that are harassing the area. Several people might be given the task of helping and it may take quite a long time for such an activity to be completed.

    Another really cool thing is that there is the potential for unique quests just for your character should a need arise and your 'standing', past activities, skillset meet their requirements. An individual or 'faction' may seek YOU out for a task/quest.

    One of the other nice things mentioned was that there are lots of possible ways to complete certain quests. For example, say you have to reduce the Orc population. You might just do that by killing Orcs or you might realise that Orcs love weath, especially Gold, and so could achive the same thing by either protecting travellers (making the Orcs decide to move on and find an easier place to target travellers) or even go so far as to mine out all the local deposits of gold (which again might make the Orcs move on to look for other places with gold).

    The Rohsong will also provide clues as to where you might find quests fitting your play style. So if you happened to be a predominantly nature based build favouring combat it would suggest area's in the world where nature was under attack. An example given in the Storybricks presentation was on the druid lands being attacked by the Dark Elves. If you followed the suggestion of the Rohsong then you would travel to the area and help the local Druids defend their lands. Enough players do that and the Dark Elves get driven back, not enough and the Dark Elves might eventually take over the Druid lands and drive them all away. It also means that players can come into conflict, both through combat and in other ways to determine what happens. Although the outcome is dependent on many factors, player intervention in the world will have a very dramatic impact on what cam take place in the world.

    I am sure more information about how it all works will come out in due course and there are some things that still have an embargo but from conversations and watching the presentations the future looks bright.

     

     

     

    I wish every post on mmorpg was as valuable as this one.

     

    I've sat through the garbled recordings of Doctor Bura to the point of face-desking, it's good to know someone was actually there and paying attention.

     

    It still raises more questions than it answers though.  If twenty independent players are asked to solve an NPC's big problem, and one of them does it in a subtle way, like posting a sign, while the others are ignoring the request or offline, how does the system know who gets credit?  (I suppose all requests having timeout values could help this somewhat)

     

    More importantly, since everything is based on a single simulated world rather than a phased world for each player, what happens when 1000 people have led their "lives of consequence" and then you show up and nothing's left to be done because the dark elf fortress has been destroyed?  I'm wondering if the previous 1000 lives weren't as "consequential" as they might have hoped.  There is so much pressure on the world simulator to avoid "local minima" as it were, ie boring equilibrium states that are tough to break out of.

     

    There's also the problem of regular group play.  Typically play groups deliberately maximize their diversity, both for group balance reasons and aesthetics.  This system seems to be actively punishing that behavior.

     

    Anyway, it's all exciting but we need more concrete examples if they expect buy-in from cynical veterans of hype.

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Seems like they're forcing themselves to be different, I get a GW2 vibe from this.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-LoL

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by dandurin
    Originally posted by amx23
    Originally posted by dandurin

    As eager as I am to see what Storybricks is going to deliver, the promises are way too vague at this point.

     

    So I can "help the dryads" or "help the dark elves" and there are "no quests".  So what?  In the absence of quests, what exactly does "help the dryads" mean besides "Kill Dark Elves?"  If I could, for instance, reason out that planting trees in a certain pattern in a certain area would be a big benefit, that's cool.  If instead an NPC tells me it would be helpful, there's no innovation here.

     

    I get that each NPC is a faction unto himself, which has awesome potential in theory, but the devil is still in the details regarding the behavior choices my character has.  If it's just "NPC x wants a flower delivered to NPC y", does it really matter that there's no exclamation point over his head?

     

    Excerpt taken from Maelydd's post:

    "I certainly got the impression that quests can come from all sorts of places. While there might be hubs of civilization they do not have set quests and there are no static NPC's (outside of the fact they will be living in the same town) or mobs (again outside the generalized area in which they might currently be inhabiting).

    The Rohsong seems to not only be a book recording your deeds but also the way to get suggestions for what there is to do in the world. During the Dev brunch we got to spend 2 hours chatting with the devs and the one on the table I sat on went into quite some depth about the way the Rohsong book worked and how quests in general worked.

    Any NPC you speak to could potentially have a quest for you to undertake. They might need materials gathered or their barn cleared of vermin or items delivered but they would only be available when needed so you wouldn't be able to clear the barn of vermin only for the next guy to come along to get the same quest as you just did it.

    Then, depending on your standing with individuals, organisations, guilds, races, political factions or any other individual/group there might be more open quests such as helping reduce banditry in the region or killing off a local population of Orcs that are harassing the area. Several people might be given the task of helping and it may take quite a long time for such an activity to be completed.

    Another really cool thing is that there is the potential for unique quests just for your character should a need arise and your 'standing', past activities, skillset meet their requirements. An individual or 'faction' may seek YOU out for a task/quest.

    One of the other nice things mentioned was that there are lots of possible ways to complete certain quests. For example, say you have to reduce the Orc population. You might just do that by killing Orcs or you might realise that Orcs love weath, especially Gold, and so could achive the same thing by either protecting travellers (making the Orcs decide to move on and find an easier place to target travellers) or even go so far as to mine out all the local deposits of gold (which again might make the Orcs move on to look for other places with gold).

    The Rohsong will also provide clues as to where you might find quests fitting your play style. So if you happened to be a predominantly nature based build favouring combat it would suggest area's in the world where nature was under attack. An example given in the Storybricks presentation was on the druid lands being attacked by the Dark Elves. If you followed the suggestion of the Rohsong then you would travel to the area and help the local Druids defend their lands. Enough players do that and the Dark Elves get driven back, not enough and the Dark Elves might eventually take over the Druid lands and drive them all away. It also means that players can come into conflict, both through combat and in other ways to determine what happens. Although the outcome is dependent on many factors, player intervention in the world will have a very dramatic impact on what cam take place in the world.

    I am sure more information about how it all works will come out in due course and there are some things that still have an embargo but from conversations and watching the presentations the future looks bright.

     

     

     

    I wish every post on mmorpg was as valuable as this one.

     

    I've sat through the garbled recordings of Doctor Bura to the point of face-desking, it's good to know someone was actually there and paying attention.

     

    It still raises more questions than it answers though.  If twenty independent players are asked to solve an NPC's big problem, and one of them does it in a subtle way, like posting a sign, while the others are ignoring the request or offline, how does the system know who gets credit?  (I suppose all requests having timeout values could help this somewhat)

     

    More importantly, since everything is based on a single simulated world rather than a phased world for each player, what happens when 1000 people have led their "lives of consequence" and then you show up and nothing's left to be done because the dark elf fortress has been destroyed?  I'm wondering if the previous 1000 lives weren't as "consequential" as they might have hoped.  There is so much pressure on the world simulator to avoid "local minima" as it were, ie boring equilibrium states that are tough to break out of.

     

    There's also the problem of regular group play.  Typically play groups deliberately maximize their diversity, both for group balance reasons and aesthetics.  This system seems to be actively punishing that behavior.

     

    Anyway, it's all exciting but we need more concrete examples if they expect buy-in from cynical veterans of hype.

    I imagine the system isn't as innovative as it seems. There might be a tug-o-war type system in place like various other games where lets say said thing happens there's an opposing force pushes back to revert the change to it's original state. I'm not 100% certain but if the story block system goes through without any opposing force everything will be a one time event. Unless of course they're using phasing.

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  • MuntzMuntz Member UncommonPosts: 332
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

    Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

    Even bugs aren't random, you can easily reproduce bugs as long as you know how to reproduce them. Programming truly isn't random. If said orc goes to create a village there will be limited locations as to where that said village will be placed. otherwise you'll end up with some very... interesting issues.

    How do you read unexpected as random?  It's not a matter of reproducing them or being random it's that bugs are unexpected. If you knew about them ahead of time you wouldn't code them in. The "as long as you know how to reproduce them" can be a large issue.

    Agreed the space is bounded but It doesn't have to be as simple as "if-then." The code could be made adaptive allowing the orcs to migrate to some where dare I say unexpected but not outside the bounds of the game. That would move it from a "feature" to a bug. 

    It's possible it's still too complex for an MMO. At any rate I hope it is more complex then some of you would make it out to be but certainly is could be very simple. Guess we will have to wait until it's available. 

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

    Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

    Even bugs aren't random, you can easily reproduce bugs as long as you know how to reproduce them. Programming truly isn't random. If said orc goes to create a village there will be limited locations as to where that said village will be placed. otherwise you'll end up with some very... interesting issues.

    How do you read unexpected as random? The "as long as you know how to reproduce them" can be a large issue. 

    Agreed the space is bounded but It doesn't have to be as simple as "if-then." The code could be made adaptive allowing the orcs to migrate to some where dare I say unexpected but not outside the bounds of the game. That would move it from a "feature" to a bug. 

    I merely thought you meant random with the usage of unexpected. 

    That's purely how it works though, 'If, then, else'. if 'else' happens then it simply goes down a finite list of 'if, then, else' until it eventually finds it's final solution. If there's a bug in the code it could definitely create something unexpected.

    I'm curious as to how this system is going to be innovative as it merely does what others have already done before. Renaming dynamic events, or public questing, etc to story bricks does not give them the ability to say innovative. It's merely delving deeper into a tree of events using 'if, then, else'.

    I just wonder if they're going to make this a massively phased game or one time occurrences. Does that mean that story blocks will last long enough for thousands or even millions to participate? How will players go about experiencing the game if most of the content has already been progressed?

    This makes me think that when you go down this tree for example, as you progress further into the tree different quests and monsters unlock as you go. which could possibly mean that if this game has different servers. Each server could contain extremely different outcomes.

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  • gothagotha Member UncommonPosts: 1,072
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


     


     


    Thanks so much for posting this; I had heard months ago on this site that UO originally had a great ecology system but scrapped it when players just killed everything, lol. Good to know the details!

    Storybricks isn't an ecology system.

    Ecology was use to describe the system which covered everything from rabbits to orcs.  

    Generally I think something like this would be of better use in a Multiplayer game vs an MMO.  Maybe a guild wars type scenerio with cities as communal hubs.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Member UncommonPosts: 823
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk
    BFD ! It's a faction system. So your actions, choices have affects on the various races and factions in the game thereby alter your access and choice in quests and quest locations. It's similar to what Vanguard had. Possibly better instituted. So they saw the potential of what was in Vanguard and instituted it in this game. Not really ground breaking or earth shattering. In Vanguard you could change bad faction with various races either through grinding quests or diplomacy. Surprisingly Sony is borrowing from a game they've just shut down and adding it to a new game. Meh , let me know when it's something truly new and impressive. As I recall they had something less refined in SWG also.

    It is nothing like a faction system, at least not in the way you have compared other systems with. The approach as explain in presentations and via the Storybricks detailing is a little more complex then kills x to make y happy.

    But killing X will still make Y happy. You will just have to also collect flowers and build a temple to make Y totally love you. Except that you will have no idea what the result of your action will be, so you will just randomly have some npc love while some other will want to kill you.

     

    If anyone has ever played Vanguard they know that there are 4 ways to affect faction. Killing mobs, questing ( run and fetch missions ). crafting certain items in particular areas or the diplomacy card game. None of what has/is being proposed is anything new or ground breaking. The fact that people are actually excited about this shows the lack of experience and naivety of the general community. There were a lot of faction in Vanguard so it could become a very complicated job maintaining those factions. Coincidently Vanguard was owned by Sony and what they are implementing is from a game they owned ? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,219
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

    For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

    However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

    Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

    So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

    But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

    I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

    Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

    ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

    Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

    In a coded program, there is nothing random.

    I appreciate that but I am talking about one of the developers actually saying he was surprised out "what happened".

    I don't remember what he did for the project but he just related a surprise element. And who knows, maybe every time the npc went to find a weapon they did so in the map the player was in except the one time that it couldn't find one and sought another map?

     

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by Azoth

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    How many combinations are there to a rubiks cube and are you capable of listing every combination and pattern possible? The creator of the rubiks cube didn't have such an easy time solving his own puzzle.

    The point I am making is that the Storybricks engine is sort of like a puzzle. A combination of possibilities. Yes the programmer has to program it to do these things. But it doesn't mean they thought of every single thing. They could add in code, and end up with some pretty unexpected results depending on the way the storybricks engine handles it and puts it all together.

    Think of a normal puzzle. Sometimes you find the unexpected piece that fits in a spot, but is wrong.

     

    With that said, it only remains unexpected till they witness it. Obviously at that point they will bonk themselves in the head and know exactly what is going on. Sometimes these unexpected situations could end up being pretty interesting things. It might end up being something they want to keep rather than calling it a bug. Truthfully even normal programming has these sort of things happen, but with Storybricks I would imagine it would happen more frequently.

    Write a story on a piece of paper. Than cut out all the sentences and throw them in the air. Now imagine a system that put all the pieces together to form another story. It would have so many combinations, that there has got to be a story in there that you wouldn't expect it to form right?

     

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Azoth

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    How many combinations are there to a rubiks cube and are you capable of listing every combination and pattern possible? The creator of the rubiks cube didn't have such an easy time solving his own puzzle.

    The point I am making is that the Storybricks engine is sort of like a puzzle. A combination of possibilities. Yes the programmer has to program it to do these things. But it doesn't mean they thought of every single thing. They could add in code, and end up with some pretty unexpected results depending on the way the storybricks engine handles it and puts it all together.

    Think of a normal puzzle. Sometimes you find the unexpected piece that fits in a spot, but is wrong.

     

    With that said, it only remains unexpected till they witness it. Obviously at that point they will bonk themselves in the head and know exactly what is going on. Sometimes these unexpected situations could end up being pretty interesting things. It might end up being something they want to keep rather than calling it a bug. Truthfully even normal programming has these sort of things happen, but with Storybricks I would imagine it would happen more frequently.

    Write a story on a piece of paper. Than cut out all the sentences and throw them in the air. Now imagine a system that put all the pieces together to form another story. It would have so many combinations, that there has got to be a story in there that you wouldn't expect it to form right?

     

    43,252,003,274,489,856,000 combinations. Rubick's Cubes are also extremely simple to solve, World Record belongs to a robot at 3.25 seconds, current world record for a human is 5.55 seconds.

    image

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  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Azoth

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    How many combinations are there to a rubiks cube and are you capable of listing every combination and pattern possible? The creator of the rubiks cube didn't have such an easy time solving his own puzzle.

    The point I am making is that the Storybricks engine is sort of like a puzzle. A combination of possibilities. Yes the programmer has to program it to do these things. But it doesn't mean they thought of every single thing. They could add in code, and end up with some pretty unexpected results depending on the way the storybricks engine handles it and puts it all together.

    Think of a normal puzzle. Sometimes you find the unexpected piece that fits in a spot, but is wrong.

     

    With that said, it only remains unexpected till they witness it. Obviously at that point they will bonk themselves in the head and know exactly what is going on. Sometimes these unexpected situations could end up being pretty interesting things. It might end up being something they want to keep rather than calling it a bug. Truthfully even normal programming has these sort of things happen, but with Storybricks I would imagine it would happen more frequently.

    Write a story on a piece of paper. Than cut out all the sentences and throw them in the air. Now imagine a system that put all the pieces together to form another story. It would have so many combinations, that there has got to be a story in there that you wouldn't expect it to form right?

     

    43,252,003,274,489,856,000 combinations. Rubick's Cubes are also extremely simple to solve, World Record belongs to a robot at 3.25 seconds, current world record for a human is 5.55 seconds.

    It took the original creator about a month to solve it. A rubiks cube isn't easy to solve. We just now know algorithms in order to solve it. Give someone a Rubiks cube who knows nothing about the algorithms and I bet you they wouldn't be able to solve it. So please .. tell me again how easy it is. You obviously have no freaking clue.

     

    Stop deluding yourself.

     

    Edit: Just as an example i am capble of solving a rubiks cube in about 1 - 2 minutes. I don't really do speed solving. I only learned how to solve a rubiks cube AFTER I learned the various algorithms to do so. That means with out the hard work of mathematicians who figured out all these algorithms, I and pretty much everyone who isn't a mathematician wouldn't be able to solve it at all. I don't see how you can claim that is a simple puzzle.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Azoth

    I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

    How many combinations are there to a rubiks cube and are you capable of listing every combination and pattern possible? The creator of the rubiks cube didn't have such an easy time solving his own puzzle.

    The point I am making is that the Storybricks engine is sort of like a puzzle. A combination of possibilities. Yes the programmer has to program it to do these things. But it doesn't mean they thought of every single thing. They could add in code, and end up with some pretty unexpected results depending on the way the storybricks engine handles it and puts it all together.

    Think of a normal puzzle. Sometimes you find the unexpected piece that fits in a spot, but is wrong.

     

    With that said, it only remains unexpected till they witness it. Obviously at that point they will bonk themselves in the head and know exactly what is going on. Sometimes these unexpected situations could end up being pretty interesting things. It might end up being something they want to keep rather than calling it a bug. Truthfully even normal programming has these sort of things happen, but with Storybricks I would imagine it would happen more frequently.

    Write a story on a piece of paper. Than cut out all the sentences and throw them in the air. Now imagine a system that put all the pieces together to form another story. It would have so many combinations, that there has got to be a story in there that you wouldn't expect it to form right?

     

    43,252,003,274,489,856,000 combinations. Rubick's Cubes are also extremely simple to solve, World Record belongs to a robot at 3.25 seconds, current world record for a human is 5.55 seconds.

    It took the original creator about a month to solve it. A rubiks cube isn't easy to solve. We just now know algorithms in order to solve it. Give someone a Rubiks cube who knows nothing about the algorithms and I bet you they wouldn't be able to solve it. So please .. tell me again how easy it is. You obviously have no freaking clue.

     

    Stop deluding yourself.

    I think you're giving a simple kid's puzzle too much credit. When the world's fastest solve is 5.5 second by a human it's extremely simple. It requires more time to solve a Sudoku puzzle then to solve a rubick's cube.

    image

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