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Amazing article detailing the innovation of EQN and Storybricks

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  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Gallus85

     

    Comparing Story Brick's Emergent AI to GW2's dynamic event system is completely asinine lol. 

    exactly - but not for the reasons you think.

    It's more of a - one is an actual existing system in a live game

    The other is still a concept yet to be implemented.

    IMO - no actual comparison can even be possible as we don't know what EQN with storybricks will actually be like in gameplay - it's all theoretical at this point.

     

         Bingo Bingo.. We have a winner..   That is what many of us have been saying..  Until this super wonder Storybricks goes live and has some mileage behind it, it is impossible to compare and rate..  GW2's dynamic events and Rift's invasions are actually working codes.. and mostly successful..  Storybricks has the potential to raise the bar, but until it becomes a working model with thousands playing it, we have NO CLUE if it is "working as intended"..

  • BetaguyBetaguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,623
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by azzamasin

     http://www.eqhammer.com/column/making-worlds-content-delivery-everquest-next

    I think it's obvious that EQN will have amazing innovation features that have never been present in the genre. I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself.

    I think it is fairly obvious why Tenton Hammer and others have lauded over it's potential with unheralded and unprecedented awards!

     


    EDIT: For some reason it isn't letting me link with the editor so just cut and paste.

    Nothing innovative there, same o, same o with a different skin. Majority don't care about NPC's developing and story. That is a small percentage of the majority that will end up trying this game.

     

    Oh wow, the inn keeper remembers me pissing him/her off. Yay!

    WHo cares what the majority wants, and why do you think you can speak for them?

    I just did, that' why. I am a natural born leader and know what's best.

    image

  • angerbeaverangerbeaver Member UncommonPosts: 1,074
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    The key thing to note is that players will be able to change their surroundings by their actions and the world will also change over time even without player intervention.  You don't need to get so specific, as in something like "Can players bar other players from being shamans!?" to understand this fact.  They've already given examples of possibilities that work within their system.  Things like orcs taking over a town, and players driving orcs out of the town making it peaceful again where you can then use the town to buy items and resources... then the orcs could come back in force with a larger raid-sized army.... OR maybe brigands see the orcs are no longer there are decide to attack.  Or maybe that town turns into a xenophobic militarized community that attacks everyone on sight because they're so afraid from being attacked all the time.  This is already done by ArenaNet (GW2) with dynamic events, just on a smaller scale..  Trion's Rift touches this with their zone wide invasions .. So this really isn't anything new, it's just done on a bigger scale.. The wheel has already been invented, but because SOE is making it a bigger wheel isn't invention..

    All you questions have already been answered.  You don't need to know about a specific scenario you dreamed up answered right now.  The key point is that the world will constantly be changing and it's not the same as scripted events like GW2 or a simple faction KOS vs Friendly system.

    GW2's world is always changing too.. in fact each server is different then others..  No two servers are technically the same..  These are not real changes, they are only short term temporary effects.. Have you played GW2 yet? lol

    I've played GW2 for many months and I don't understand why you can't figure out that they're drastically different systems that work in drastically different ways.

    Probably because they aren't that much different on a player perspective. A scripted event triggered by players.

    This statement only proves you don't know anything about the system, how it works and why it's drastically different.

    Bookmarked for post-release review.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,096
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Why are so many EQN supporters speaking about Storybricks as if its fully implemented and working in the game already?

    Can we just wait to see how it actually works in game before comparing this to ANY playable game right now?

    Storybricks is a great systems, it has a lot of potential but that's all it is right now - potential, a possibility.

    Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless.

     

    Because of posts like you started last week expressing there is no innovation in EQN.

     

    I am not an EQN apologist but I knew coming out of SOE Live 2013 (last years event and 1st announcement) that EQN was going to be different.  I aint saying it's going to be the bees knees or cats pajamas but it sure as hell is going to be evolutionary and quite possibly revolutionary.  For the record it the system is working and was shown at SOE live 2014.  Which is what the jest of this article describes.

     

    Listen I understand that the MMO genre is saturated with flop after flop but lets not be so blinded, jaded and pessimistic that it blinds our inability to look forward too and spot something cool waiting in the wings.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,096
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Markn

     

    Ya people will hate because haters are jealous.  Funny they slam the graphics when it uses the same engine as PS2 which has great graphics.  GW2 clone probably not as GW2 has a level system.

    Actually funny thing is, graphics are made out of textures, models, LODs .. ect. Even if these are in the same engine doesn't mean they are all of equal quality.

     

    So technically, 2 games made in the same engine could have differeing levels of graphics. It depends on quality and what technologies of the engine are utilized. Game development 101 XD

     

    By the way, I am in no way saying EQN has lower quality. Actually in my opinion, the quality is perfectly fine.

    Exactly right.  Nice to see you get it.

    EQN doesn't have "bad graphics".  It's not like they're outdated or poorly done.  They might not be what you prefer or what you think is best when it comes to style, but they are technologically on the high end and they accomplish exactly what the designers want: More lifelike characters that can show a wide range of emotion.

    And if history is any indication, it's not like stylized graphics are a bad way to go.  Some of the highest selling, most popular and critically acclaimed games in history are stylized or don't even use high end 3D graphics..

    League of Legends, WoW, Minecraft, Mario Kart 8, the Sims series, TF2, FTL, Terraria, etc etc.

    Ultra realistic graphics don't make the game inherently better.  

    I dunno, maybe I just care more about game play than I do with how nice the graphics are.

    Lolol.

    Exactly.

     

    For record look at games like Albion Online, Shroud of the Avatar or Pathfinder for dated graphics.  Couple that with poor animations and those games are 10+ years too late.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,651
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Why are so many EQN supporters speaking about Storybricks as if its fully implemented and working in the game already?

    Can we just wait to see how it actually works in game before comparing this to ANY playable game right now?

    Storybricks is a great systems, it has a lot of potential but that's all it is right now - potential, a possibility.

    Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless.

     

    Because of posts like you started last week expressing there is no innovation in EQN. 

    Have you played EQN? No - so you can't speak about any actual innovation, you are just speculating.

    You could say *possible* or *planned* innovation - but there is no game yet - and without the game there is NOTHING, there is no innovation.

    Nobody knows what future can bring no matter how much they THINK they know - San Diego might get hit by a catastrophic earthquake in 3 months - and guess what - no EQNext, or some crazy thing happens and they just change the planned features or something.

    Who knows? The earthquake scenario - highly unlikely, but features getting cut during MMORPG dev cycle - yeah happens with every game.

    Don't count eggs before they hatch, don't count on innovation before you actually see it first hand.

     

     

    I am not an EQN apologist but I knew coming out of SOE Live 2013 (last years event and 1st announcement) that EQN was going to be different. 

    Maybe - again I hope it is different, I hope SoE delivers on all planned features - but we don't know yet.

    I aint saying it's going to be the bees knees or cats pajamas but it sure as hell is going to be evolutionary and quite possibly revolutionary.

    Exactly.

      For the record it the system is working and was shown at SOE live 2014.  Which is what the jest of this article describes.

     Yeah stop right here "the system" - what exactly was shown - Storybricks in ISOLATION was shown - not integrated in EQNext, heck they didn't even have a video of it in EQN (at least combat for example they showed videos)

    We don't know how Storybricks scales, what message queue system does it support and at what rate? How deep will the Storybricks branching go in a multiplayer setting (like 400 players talking to the same NPC at the same time, or players that talk to 100 NPCs - come back 5 months later to a much more evolved world - what's does Storybricks keep track of all 100 conversations and the exact branch/ "brick" they were on with every NPC? And that's just tip of the iceberg.

    Listen I understand that the MMO genre is saturated with flop after flop but lets not be so blinded, jaded and pessimistic that it blinds our inability to look forward too and spot something cool waiting in the wings.

    I think it's awesome to be excited about the possibility what EQN might be - but what's wrong IMO is taking a stance as if we're in 2019 and speaking about EQN as if it were complete with 100% promised features working flawlessly and all bugs ironed out.

     The chance of EQN launching with 100% of currently promised features working as described is highly unlikely.

    It is much more likely when rubber meets the road - Storybricks implemention into EQN *could* hit some unforseen roadblocks (due to  factors that even the devs are unaware of) and some key features have to get cut. 

    This happens with every MMORPG - the further you go into dev cycle, due to time/budget and other constraints - you must cut features. 

    Due to very early state of EQN - I would not be surprised if we see some stuff get axed - there is a very good possibility of this happening.

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,815


    Originally posted by Brabbit1987Aka .. you are just being picky about wording.


    It is not just the words, it is the lack of critical thinking behind it.


    Example? Your next paragraph.


    Originally posted by Brabbit1987Technically from a technical stand point. It WILL be better as long as they achieve what they say they will.

    "What they say", "achieve", "what they want to achieve" - all is just subjective.

    There can be easily miles difference between what they think they are saying and what YOU think they are saying.

  • ArthasmArthasm Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Yeah, 10 years old crap and bs, talking, interviews, pr shit, demo videos, articles, but when comes to the game - 0. Cut the crap, let's see how it works in real game.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,416
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself. 

    So anyone who isn't as hyped or should i say as gullible and starry eyed as you are fooling themselves lol. Your comment about not getting hyped is a joke considering this pontificating thread you have made.

    So you have seen this all working in game then, an article is written and you consider that proof lmfao.

    I think the only fool is you who actually believes the hype without actually seeing anything.image




  • kinkyJalepenokinkyJalepeno Member UncommonPosts: 1,033
    Originally posted by flizzer
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by flizzer

    Of course I am excited and anxious to play this , but I do fear this is a lot of pre release hype.  After all, some of this type of talk was heard prior to the release of GW2. I play GW2 and do love the game but I do admit the pre release hype and the actual gameplay differ in degrees of magnitude.  How will EQN actually play?   

    Im still not clear if anything described is really all that different.  Players will now have choices. Okay,  They will still need to add these content choices in to the game.  Whether you call it an update, expansion, or whatever, developers will need to add these changes in to the game and players will be waiting for the next content addition similar to the way we already do.   It almost seems like they are just calling these systems by different names and trying to convince us they are new and different.  I hope they are. I will be there on day one to play this game and hope I am completely wrong.  Perhaps I am just a jaded gamer who has listened to much too much pre release game hype to believe what I read.

    A small example.

    The developers put a gold mine into the game.

    Now every faction, group or individual that is affected by the desire for wealth has been dynamically changed by the introduction of this gold mine. Not only that but with every faction, group or individual affected, there will be a knock on effect with those that are not interested simply through their interaction with those that are. If you have thousand of factions, groups and individuals that are all interacting then any change could potentially have a very dramatic effect.

    In essence Storybricks allows for a world to operate with a very real 'butterfly effect' going on.

    Hard to imagine the complexity of all the content that will be needed to allow for this.  GW2 claims they have teams working on all aspects of the game.  How many would be needed for all these different choices?   How often would we get updates?  Yes, they would need to be updates. You might not like the word and SOE apparently doesnt but when you add content to the game you update.  Again, I forsee players just waiting on the next additional content update to the game so they can play with more choices.  Not a bad thing if SOE can deliver, for sure, but I feel we are being bamboozled with the language and superlatives used in describing these systems. 

    Not many needed at all..  Story bricks would generate what it needed to for any choices.  Geddit?

  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    There is a difference between writing a system that has two possible outcomes, and writing a system that tells the system to find an outcome that fits a particular set of criteria.

     

    In one case, there will only ever be 2 outcomes and adding additional outcomes scales up the amount of work required to produce the outcomes in a linear manner.  In the second case, there are many possible outcomes, allowing for many possible responses from players without scaling up the amount of work required to generate the additional outcomes.  A change in the environment by the players results in a change in the possible outcomes and responses in the AI mobs.  I don't know if it is a "living world", but the AI mobs are certainly reactive to the players and environmental changes without intervention from the developer.

     

    There is not as much difference as you may think.

    In a system where a single event may conclude numerous different ways, each of those forks must have scripts created and tested to handle the actions of the NPCs should that fork be chosen by players. For random repeatable events, this would certainly help make the content last longer.

    For static content, such as a choice between which city gets built/unlocked versus another - from a certain perspective, there is a lot of development time wasted to create forks in the story that will never be seen.

    The scripting involved to provide NPCs with the ability to seem "intelligent" and be able to respond in a myriad of ways at the conclusion of an event would require a monumental amount of AI & event scripting. Each event outcome may literally chain into dozens of unique story pathways. The amount of time to just script these story pathways would be huge - without even bearing down on the monetary costs of voice acting and building the animation sequences involved with the events.

    Let us also not forget that MMOs these days push 30GB of disk space - having the game also support voiceovers for potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of events that may or may not ever play out would certainly make these games much larger.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,651
    Originally posted by Wolfhammer
     

    Not many needed at all..  Story bricks would generate what it needed to for any choices.  Geddit?

    Complete speculation on your part.

    We don't know what the limits are of Storybricks servers once implemented in EQN.

    To say not many needed at all without any inside knowledge or understanding of the implementation details is just BS.

     

  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987

    Aka .. you are just being picky about wording.

     

    Technically from a technical stand point. It WILL be better as long as they achieve what they say they will. I think that is a better way to word it.

    He's not being picky about the wording. He's just asking people to be reasonable and not just lay down on the tracks of the hype train.

     

    If EQN actually pulls off what they want storybricks to accomplish, I won't argue it will be neat - at least at first. My reservation is, after playing MMORPGs for 15+ years, how frustrating is it going to be to have to try to constantly find where that orc camp moved to when everyone and their brother  is trying to farm them for "orc bones" because an important recipe requires 150 of them per combine.

    I've seen a mountain of ideas that looked good on paper, looked good in the dev blog bragging them up, sounded awesome at lunch talking with friends but after they were put in the game - some other mechanic in the game made them just absolutely frustrating to deal with on a daily basis.

  • naaminaami Member UncommonPosts: 216

    If you want to see how storybricks works they have a video uploaded from two years ago.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es

    I think it has potential to speed up game development when it comes to adding new mobs and factions. Because they want to create a virtual world where all mobs and factions interact with each other, rather than doing a lot of scripting for how they would behave with others, they can just give them whatever tags and let em loose. 

  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,419
    I remember being excited for dynamic events in GW2 but skeptical. Once I played them I felt my skepticism was justified. The dynamic events dont really feel meaningful and there is a decided lack of engaging story told through the events.  This might be the major shortcoming of they GW2 dynamic events-inability to tell a compelling story.  The way I hear this Storybricks possibly working is through storytelling that is lacking in GW2.  Of course, all this is just mere speculation fueled by desire at this point.  Remaining skeptical is what we all should be at this point until we get to play the game and see for ourselves. 
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,780

    I don't always agree with Kano.However, in this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with his points.

    1. You are comparing a Pre-Alpha development spec against a system that is already released. But let's look at a bit of history here and compare apples to apples.

    Going back in time a few years to GW2 pre-alpha and quite frankly even into it's Betas, and look at the threads about what Dynamic Events were going to do for the genre. THAT is the comparison you should be making here. Looking at what DEs were supposed to do vs what they actually did. 

    Why do am I saying to compare it like that? Because at that time, you had the actual product that ANET developed, but the data, info and facts that anyone had access to, 1st had to go through marketing. Marketing will ALWAYS take a product and blow it up to be bigger than what it really is. Story Bricks is no exception.

    If GW2 were still in Development and we were reading about what DE's are going to do for the genre based on what ANET told us back in 2010 and 2011, These threads comparing the 2 would be quite different.

  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 570
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I don't always agree with Kano.However, in this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with his points.1. You are comparing a Pre-Alpha development spec against a system that is already released. But let's look at a bit of history here and compare apples to apples.Going back in time a few years to GW2 pre-alpha and quite frankly even into it's Betas, and look at the threads about what Dynamic Events were going to do for the genre. THAT is the comparison you should be making here. Looking at what DEs were supposed to do vs what they actually did. Why do am I saying to compare it like that? Because at that time, you had the actual product that ANET developed, but the data, info and facts that anyone had access to, 1st had to go through marketing. Marketing will ALWAYS take a product and blow it up to be bigger than what it really is. Story Bricks is no exception.If GW2 were still in Development and we were reading about what DE's are going to do for the genre based on what ANET told us back in 2010 and 2011, These threads comparing the 2 would be quite different.

     

    except dynamic events ARE changing the genre? Storybricks is the next step and after storybricks who knows what we'll get. I'm sure blizzard has been working on their own version of this whole thing for their next MMO (titan?) as well. Innovation is a moving target... you never arrive.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    There is a difference between writing a system that has two possible outcomes, and writing a system that tells the system to find an outcome that fits a particular set of criteria.

     

    In one case, there will only ever be 2 outcomes and adding additional outcomes scales up the amount of work required to produce the outcomes in a linear manner.  In the second case, there are many possible outcomes, allowing for many possible responses from players without scaling up the amount of work required to generate the additional outcomes.  A change in the environment by the players results in a change in the possible outcomes and responses in the AI mobs.  I don't know if it is a "living world", but the AI mobs are certainly reactive to the players and environmental changes without intervention from the developer.

     

    There is not as much difference as you may think.

    In a system where a single event may conclude numerous different ways, each of those forks must have scripts created and tested to handle the actions of the NPCs should that fork be chosen by players. For random repeatable events, this would certainly help make the content last longer.

    For static content, such as a choice between which city gets built/unlocked versus another - from a certain perspective, there is a lot of development time wasted to create forks in the story that will never be seen.

    The scripting involved to provide NPCs with the ability to seem "intelligent" and be able to respond in a myriad of ways at the conclusion of an event would require a monumental amount of AI & event scripting. Each event outcome may literally chain into dozens of unique story pathways. The amount of time to just script these story pathways would be huge - without even bearing down on the monetary costs of voice acting and building the animation sequences involved with the events.

    Let us also not forget that MMOs these days push 30GB of disk space - having the game also support voiceovers for potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of events that may or may not ever play out would certainly make these games much larger.

     

    StoryBricks doesn't operate using "scripts" in the sense you are using here.  StoryBricks doesn't pre-generate "scripts" for NPCs to follow either, unless the developer decides that's how they want the NPC to operate.

     

    It literally works like this:

    Orcs are presented with players that are more powerful than they are or the Orcs are presented with NPC Guards that kill them.  The Orcs then just run away from the location they are living in to find another location that fits their needs.  There are no specific locations they will search.  They will just travel until the find a location that fits their needs.  The system is simple.  "Fulfill Needs".  The outcome is open ended and potentially very interesting depending on the Needs of other NPCs and how the Orcs respond to other NPCs.

     

    That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of testing that happens and that they don't have to put a lot of work into it.  It does mean that to get a lot of variation in the worlds that players see and the experiences that they have won't require the work to scale with the number of possible outcomes though.  If the players decide to build a city, and there happen to be Orcs close by, the Orcs may decide to leave because the players send guards out on patrol, or they may decide to stay because the players like having a convenient source of XP, but in either case the developer doesn't have to write any additional code to make the Orcs do something in response to the players.  The Orcs will just respond to the players and the world will change because of what the players are doing.  That is not a scripted system with a tree of possible results.

     

    It could all suck, but it's not the same thing as the scripted events you would find in GW2.  It's not even similar to a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book.  Whether it's better or not really depends on how well SOE writes the "Needs" and "Abilities" of the NPCs.  Keep in mind that the Orc example that EQN has presented is the most simplistic example they have.  Orcs could have many other "Needs" in addition to just low population and few guards.  The Orcs could also have a desire for grasslands, or to be near water, or if they are pushed around enough by the environment they may start to band together and become more bold, eventually attacking cities instead of running from the city guards, all without SOE explicitly telling them to do anything.  It really just depends on how SOE writes it.

     

    It would be good to keep in mind that this system also allows for exactly the same kind of scripted, story driven content that exists in GW2.  This isn't the best use of the AI, but it will certainly do it, and it will allow the developer to run NPC shop keepers who keep tabs on players, and allow them to give deals to their "favorites".  If SOE puts the appropriate amount of effort into this system, it will be really, really cool.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,419

    I'll agree with Geezer here.  While I may not agree with any one poster on anything, here, DM Kano is correct.  There needs to be some division between facts and opinions.  There's nothing concrete released that is actual gameplay, so we have no way to test and evaluate a product for ourselves.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I never worked on a project where some of the project goals/objectives/requirements weren't omitted or drastically revised.  Goals and project objectives are the first things to be compromised when time and money get tight.  And all we have so far are project specifications, features that SOE wants to implement in this product.  There's still lots of time for these goals to change, due to desire or technical issues.  Anyone who has done an elaborate COCOMO project model will be aware of the impact (and risks) of incorporating new technology/techniques into any project plan.  There are plenty of potential points of failure for the EQN project that simply haven't occurred yet.

    In any case, in four years time, we will have an EQN, and it will work as implemented.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by flizzer
    I remember being excited for dynamic events in GW2 but skeptical. Once I played them I felt my skepticism was justified. The dynamic events dont really feel meaningful and there is a decided lack of engaging story told through the events.  This might be the major shortcoming of they GW2 dynamic events-inability to tell a compelling story.  The way I hear this Storybricks possibly working is through storytelling that is lacking in GW2.  Of course, all this is just mere speculation fueled by desire at this point.  Remaining skeptical is what we all should be at this point until we get to play the game and see for ourselves. 

    People are different.

    Having spent years in EQ1, then 9 years in WoW (with some Rift/TOR mixed in there) - I found GW2 to be refreshing and nearly what I had been looking for quite some time. I'm thoroughly enjoying the game, even more so that I've finally convinced my brother to pick up the game during the recent sale.

    I simply cannot expect a dynamic event in an ONLINE game with thousands of other players to have any permanent effect on the game world. That would not be fair to the other players that are not able to be on at the same time as the event is occurring. This is why most games these days seem to let the massive game changing story events play out repeatedly for a couple weeks before the game world is permanently changed.

    By virtue of being an online world, there are simply some things that cannot be done - certainly not because of technological limitations though. It is certainly possible to create a script to change the game world. It is because some players will miss the experience and this will cause frustration/lack of immersion.

  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 570
    Originally posted by Mendel

    I'll agree with Geezer here.  While I may not agree with any one poster on anything, here, DM Kano is correct.  There needs to be some division between facts and opinions.  There's nothing concrete released that is actual gameplay, so we have no way to test and evaluate a product for ourselves.I don't know about anyone else, but I never worked on a project where some of the project goals/objectives/requirements weren't omitted or drastically revised.  Goals and project objectives are the first things to be compromised when time and money get tight.  And all we have so far are project specifications, features that SOE wants to implement in this product.  There's still lots of time for these goals to change, due to desire or technical issues.  Anyone who has done an elaborate COCOMO project model will be aware of the impact (and risks) of incorporating new technology/techniques into any project plan.  There are plenty of potential points of failure for the EQN project that simply haven't occurred yet.In any case, in four years time, we will have an EQN, and it will work as implemented.

     

    proof of concept exists and that's how a lot of projects get their investment. I'll remain skeptical to a degree until I see things in action but saying that nothing currently exists to base opinion on is incorrect. There is information out there, it just requires some effort to find and understand.
  • RaellnRaelln Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    StoryBricks doesn't operate using "scripts" in the sense you are using here.  StoryBricks doesn't pre-generate "scripts" for NPCs to follow either, unless the developer decides that's how they want the NPC to operate.

     

    It literally works like this:

    Orcs are presented with players that are more powerful than they are or the Orcs are presented with NPC Guards that kill them.  The Orcs then just run away from the location they are living in to find another location that fits their needs.  There are no specific locations they will search.  They will just travel until the find a location that fits their needs.  The system is simple.  "Fulfill Needs".  The outcome is open ended and potentially very interesting depending on the Needs of other NPCs and how the Orcs respond to other NPCs.

     

    That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of testing that happens and that they don't have to put a lot of work into it.  It does mean that to get a lot of variation in the worlds that players see and the experiences that they have won't require the work to scale with the number of possible outcomes though.  If the players decide to build a city, and there happen to be Orcs close by, the Orcs may decide to leave because the players send guards out on patrol, or they may decide to stay because the players like having a convenient source of XP, but in either case the developer doesn't have to write any additional code to make the Orcs do something in response to the players.  The Orcs will just respond to the players and the world will change because of what the players are doing.  That is not a scripted system with a tree of possible results.

     

    It could all suck, but it's not the same thing as the scripted events you would find in GW2.  It's not even similar to a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book.  Whether it's better or not really depends on how well SOE writes the "Needs" and "Abilities" of the NPCs.  Keep in mind that the Orc example that EQN has presented is the most simplistic example they have.  Orcs could have many other "Needs" in addition to just low population and few guards.  The Orcs could also have a desire for grasslands, or to be near water, or if they are pushed around enough by the environment they may start to band together and become more bold, eventually attacking cities instead of running from the city guards, all without SOE explicitly telling them to do anything.  It really just depends on how SOE writes it.

     

    It would be good to keep in mind that this system also allows for exactly the same kind of scripted, story driven content that exists in GW2.  This isn't the best use of the AI, but it will certainly do it, and it will allow the developer to run NPC shop keepers who keep tabs on players, and allow them to give deals to their "favorites".  If SOE puts the appropriate amount of effort into this system, it will be really, really cool.

     

    It's still scripts, regardless of whether or not EQN's devs write them or the Storybrick module autogenerates them from the EQN dev's input.

    Still, even at that - any game worth their salt is going to want orcs to behave differently than spiders - this will require no small effort from the devs to make adjustments and tweak numbers/scripts/customize each type of NPC (perhaps even based on geography) that Storybricks manages.

    It's not a fire and forget type of action here. It's not merely "enable a Storybricks module and now all your NPCs act intelligently". 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,780
    Originally posted by evilized
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I don't always agree with Kano.However, in this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with his points.

    1. You are comparing a Pre-Alpha development spec against a system that is already released. But let's look at a bit of history here and compare apples to apples.

    Going back in time a few years to GW2 pre-alpha and quite frankly even into it's Betas, and look at the threads about what Dynamic Events were going to do for the genre. THAT is the comparison you should be making here. Looking at what DEs were supposed to do vs what they actually did. 

    Why do am I saying to compare it like that? Because at that time, you had the actual product that ANET developed, but the data, info and facts that anyone had access to, 1st had to go through marketing. Marketing will ALWAYS take a product and blow it up to be bigger than what it really is. Story Bricks is no exception.

    If GW2 were still in Development and we were reading about what DE's are going to do for the genre based on what ANET told us back in 2010 and 2011, These threads comparing the 2 would be quite different.

     

    except dynamic events ARE changing the genre? Storybricks is the next step and after storybricks who knows what we'll get. I'm sure blizzard has been working on their own version of this whole thing for their next MMO (titan?) as well. Innovation is a moving target... you never arrive.

    That's not my point. 

    We've had a chance to kick the tires on DEs we've seen what they do vs what we were once told they would do and there is a big difference there.

    It will be the same for Storybricks. Once it's out and we can see it for what it is, there will be a difference between the effective experience players have vs what we are now being told it will have. 

    That's just how marketing works.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    StoryBricks doesn't operate using "scripts" in the sense you are using here.  StoryBricks doesn't pre-generate "scripts" for NPCs to follow either, unless the developer decides that's how they want the NPC to operate.

     

    It literally works like this:

    Orcs are presented with players that are more powerful than they are or the Orcs are presented with NPC Guards that kill them.  The Orcs then just run away from the location they are living in to find another location that fits their needs.  There are no specific locations they will search.  They will just travel until the find a location that fits their needs.  The system is simple.  "Fulfill Needs".  The outcome is open ended and potentially very interesting depending on the Needs of other NPCs and how the Orcs respond to other NPCs.

     

    That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of testing that happens and that they don't have to put a lot of work into it.  It does mean that to get a lot of variation in the worlds that players see and the experiences that they have won't require the work to scale with the number of possible outcomes though.  If the players decide to build a city, and there happen to be Orcs close by, the Orcs may decide to leave because the players send guards out on patrol, or they may decide to stay because the players like having a convenient source of XP, but in either case the developer doesn't have to write any additional code to make the Orcs do something in response to the players.  The Orcs will just respond to the players and the world will change because of what the players are doing.  That is not a scripted system with a tree of possible results.

     

    It could all suck, but it's not the same thing as the scripted events you would find in GW2.  It's not even similar to a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book.  Whether it's better or not really depends on how well SOE writes the "Needs" and "Abilities" of the NPCs.  Keep in mind that the Orc example that EQN has presented is the most simplistic example they have.  Orcs could have many other "Needs" in addition to just low population and few guards.  The Orcs could also have a desire for grasslands, or to be near water, or if they are pushed around enough by the environment they may start to band together and become more bold, eventually attacking cities instead of running from the city guards, all without SOE explicitly telling them to do anything.  It really just depends on how SOE writes it.

     

    It would be good to keep in mind that this system also allows for exactly the same kind of scripted, story driven content that exists in GW2.  This isn't the best use of the AI, but it will certainly do it, and it will allow the developer to run NPC shop keepers who keep tabs on players, and allow them to give deals to their "favorites".  If SOE puts the appropriate amount of effort into this system, it will be really, really cool.

     

    It's still scripts, regardless of whether or not EQN's devs write them or the Storybrick module autogenerates them from the EQN dev's input.

    Still, even at that - any game worth their salt is going to want orcs to behave differently than spiders - this will require no small effort from the devs to make adjustments and tweak numbers/scripts/customize each type of NPC (perhaps even based on geography) that Storybricks manages.

    It's not a fire and forget type of action here. It's not merely "enable a Storybricks module and now all your NPCs act intelligently". 

     

     

    It is not scripts. 

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Raelln
     

    It's not a fire and forget type of action here. It's not merely "enable a Storybricks module and now all your NPCs act intelligently". 

    Are you sure?

    Reason I ask is that they showed both the macro demo of Storybricks in action and the micro using in game action. The macro showed a 'risk' like board to show the overall large scale of how storybricks works in the world and the in game demo showed unscripted Dark Elves patrolling a castle, using teleporter pads to change locations and using a well of power if they came across it.

    It certainly looked like you set-up your NPC and the world, let them go, and they go for it. They follow objectives, interact with the world dynamically and made choices based on their profiles.

    I would ask why you are certain what they showed as part of the demo and using in game footage isn't possible?

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