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Storybricks Update (EQN's AI system)

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  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Azoth
    You want the orc blacksmith to lower his prices, you go kill elves non stop till he does.

     

     

    You kill some Elves.

    Elves seek alliances because they become weaker (as one option for 'become stronger' which they choose to do when the 'become weaker' is 'seek allies').

    They recruit some Goblins.

    Elves and Goblins now find they are very powerful.

    Elves attack city where Orc Blacksmith resides (because their 'power level' allows them to do various things and they chose to 'attack local strongholds' rather then 'increase defences' from the list of options available from the 'become powerful' tree).

    You can now choose to defend the city to get those cheaper prices or let the Orc die due to your actions.

    Either way, you find killing Elves might not have been the smartest way to get the Orc Blacksmiths cheaper prices despite a conversation with him where he tells you he hates Elves.

     

    My head hurts when seeing the possibilities of this system and people still don't get it!

     

     

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Azoth
    You want the orc blacksmith to lower his prices, you go kill elves non stop till he does.

     

     

    You kill some Elves.

    Elves seek alliances because they become weaker (as one option for 'become stronger' which they choose to do when the 'become weaker' is 'seek allies').

    They recruit some Goblins.

    Elves and Goblins now find they are very powerful.

    Elves attack city where Orc Blacksmith resides (because their 'power level' allows them to do various things and they chose to 'attack local strongholds' rather then 'increase defences' from the list of options available from the 'become powerful' tree).

    You can now choose to defend the city to get those cheaper prices or let the Orc die due to your actions.

    Either way, you find killing Elves might not have been the smartest way to get the Orc Blacksmiths cheaper prices despite a conversation with him where he tells you he hates Elves.

     

    My head hurts when seeing the possibilities of this system and people still don't get it!

     

     

    Adding meaningful EVE (environement vs environment ?) would certainly be a really nice upgrade. If they can pull something like that I would certainly be praising them. That would be something we don't see much on a big scale.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Yes it looks like EQ1s more in-depth faction system.However that's not what I associate with "AI" - that's only one aspect.AI should also include "behavior" - as in how NPCs act during night/day - actions they take "on their own" - and this goes far beyond faction. There should be lots of variance even within the same "species" (not all Orcs should act the same way) etc... For example - in a really violent species, there would be a lot of in-fighting and killing amongst themselves (look at humans for a great example).  

     

    I some times hold on to the decades old statement: Once the complex AI problem is solved it is no longer AI. :D

    Will this system allow for outcomes the devs have no anticipated? It seems like of static from what I have seen in the past. By static, I mean a fixed few states that an npc is limited to and can be stuck in. If you piss off that NPC who then refuses to talk with you is there a way to overcome this within Storybricks?
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  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    My head hurts when seeing the possibilities of this system and people still don't get it!

    "But all you did was raise your faction with the Orc Blacksmith...lame." Some people have such a limited imagination. Even if it is simply a "faction" system as some can't seem to get away from, maybe now the Blacksmith hates our guts because we pissed off the Elves and cleaves us in two when we walk past. Despite him going on and on about how he'd like every Elf dead. Which wasn't a "go out and do X until Y likes you" faction situation, it was an unforeseen consequence of our actions.

    Great example by the way.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    I some times hold on to the decades old statement: Once the complex AI problem is solved it is no longer AI. :D Will this system allow for outcomes the devs have no anticipated? It seems like of static from what I have seen in the past. By static, I mean a fixed few states that an npc is limited to and can be stuck in. If you piss off that NPC who then refuses to talk with you is there a way to overcome this within Storybricks?

    This seems to be exactly what they are saying. The system is dynamic enough that they don't know what will happen. While the AI will have a pool of variables, how those work together is unknown until it actually is happening. When the AI comes across a situation they don't have a variable for, they will look for something similar to continue instead of being confused and their heads exploding. I think unlike most games, if you piss off an NPC, it isn't a one shot deal or simply "oh I killed too many Elves now they hate me, time to kill Orcs until they love me again." Might have to actually do other things to earn back their trust beyond grinding mindlessly and it may happen out of no where do to some complex web of NPC/Player interactions.

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    With those people i am surprised they could sell their product to anyone.The first guy was kind of well you know and the second guy was very boring and  not making sense to the average viewer audience.I am sure they put a lot of effort into this engine,trying to cover as many areas as possible but imo it is not good enough and not something i would want as a developer.

    Basically a devs auto-bot,you input all the scripts and the engine sorts it for you.

    I personally don't like auto scripted content like this because then the entire game looks and plays the same from level 1> end level.SOE already does this with their game,they repeat the same sequence of spells only changing into Taunt 1 >taunt II>?Taunt II ect ect.They do the same with crafting,the same crafts at level 1-10 are the same only a tier higher every ten levels.That is what i call VERY lazy game design.

    IDK maybe this engine can do something amazing that i don't know about but i doubt it.I see it being exactly like SWTOR was with it's choices,a few different scripts for each scenario.Sure some math wiz could calculate that over 500 quests and come up with some infinite number of variations but in reality nothing much will change your experience,it will always feel the same old.

    Call me a skeptic whatever,i just know how much effort it takes to make some well scripted content and no engine is going to make our story telling any more amazing than what can already be done without the engine.

    What it comes down to is the developer needs to put in the effort to make scripted AI with lots of interaction and animations.Then you need to utilize particle effects and action scenes bring the NPC's into the foray with destructive surfaces ect ect.You need to make the assets that bring the scene to life,this Story Bricks is not going to do any of that for the developer.

    This video wasn't meant for the common viewer or video game fan.  It was a technical presentation about the underlying framework of their system, geared towards game programmers and designers.

     

    And thank goodness for that, as we've had way too much "common speak" on this subject and it was nice to see what they actually have in store for us.  As a game programmer myself I found the video very interesting and informative.

     

    And as I have been saying all along, the core of this is not about combat.  It's about creating NPCs and mobs that aren't just spawning at a random node and standing around waiting to be killed.  It's all about creating a living, changing, dynamic world.

     

    Which, again, as I've constantly said, is far more interesting than "Advanced combat AI", which has already been done to death by other games over the past 15 years.  Their combat AI algorithms will certainly be included in this framework, but the big picture of the overall system is far more expansive and impressive than just that.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,698
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    With those people i am surprised they could sell their product to anyone.The first guy was kind of well you know and the second guy was very boring and  not making sense to the average viewer audience.I am sure they put a lot of effort into this engine,trying to cover as many areas as possible but imo it is not good enough and not something i would want as a developer.

    Basically a devs auto-bot,you input all the scripts and the engine sorts it for you.

    I personally don't like auto scripted content like this because then the entire game looks and plays the same from level 1> end level.SOE already does this with their game,they repeat the same sequence of spells only changing into Taunt 1 >taunt II>?Taunt II ect ect.They do the same with crafting,the same crafts at level 1-10 are the same only a tier higher every ten levels.That is what i call VERY lazy game design.

    IDK maybe this engine can do something amazing that i don't know about but i doubt it.I see it being exactly like SWTOR was with it's choices,a few different scripts for each scenario.Sure some math wiz could calculate that over 500 quests and come up with some infinite number of variations but in reality nothing much will change your experience,it will always feel the same old.

    Call me a skeptic whatever,i just know how much effort it takes to make some well scripted content and no engine is going to make our story telling any more amazing than what can already be done without the engine.

    What it comes down to is the developer needs to put in the effort to make scripted AI with lots of interaction and animations.Then you need to utilize particle effects and action scenes bring the NPC's into the foray with destructive surfaces ect ect.You need to make the assets that bring the scene to life,this Story Bricks is not going to do any of that for the developer.

    This video wasn't meant for the common viewer or video game fan.  It was a technical presentation about the underlying framework of their system, geared towards game programmers and designers.

     

    And thank goodness for that, as we've had way too much "common speak" on this subject and it was nice to see what they actually have in store for us.  As a game programmer myself I found the video very interesting and informative.

     

    And as I have been saying all along, the core of this is not about combat.  It's about creating NPCs and mobs that aren't just spawning at a random node and standing around waiting to be killed.  It's all about creating a living, changing, dynamic world.

     

    Which, again, as I've constantly said, is far more interesting than "Advanced combat AI", which has already been done to death by other games over the past 15 years.  Their combat AI algorithms will certainly be included in this framework, but the big picture of the overall system is far more expansive and impressive than just that.

    You are like a dog with a bone, even when shown evidence in a interview from Storybricks devs saying there system covers combat AI you still go on like its not. I suggest you spend some time reading on the subject. This video covered one part of what they are doing, how story works with their system. (((eye roll)))

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     

    You are like a dog with a bone, even when shown evidence in a interview from Storybricks devs saying there system covers combat AI you still go on like its not. I suggest you spend some time reading on the subject. This video covered one part of what they are doing, how story works with their system. (((eye roll)))

    The same methodology can be applied to combat AI as non combat AI although so far none of the presentations have shown or covered combat.

    For example....

     

    Combat starts

    Player makes a hostile action to Monster (Monster for convenience sake as could be anything controlled by the system).

    Monster check available options to respond to a hostile action. The list is covered by the flight or fight action list and includes: -

    Backing up and running away

    Dodging and readying a weapon to block

    Dodging and preparing a spell

    Drawing weapon and aggressively reposting

    Shouting for help

    Surrendering

    Monster decides to dodge and prepare a spell. Options available for spells are: -

    cast defensive fight spell

    cast defensive flight spell

    cast aggressive fight spell

    cast aggressive flight spell

    The monster has a trait where, while not a coward they tend to try and avoid fights but still act bravely when forced, so chooses to cast a defensive fight spell and raises a shield to block the incoming attack.

    The player attacks and lands a very hard hit, bypassing the defensive shield.

    The monster realises it is out matched and so chooses a defensive flight spell now. It has tried to fight but now realises it is not going to win and having a trait where it is self preserving it looks at options to get away from the fight..

    The monster casts an aggressive flight spell which propels him backwards 50 feet but does so via an explosion that causes damage to the player.

    The player takes the hit but decides to chase the monster.

    The monster now runs.

    But it has a devious trait and realises that he can lure the player into a trap that was put down earlier. It decides that this would be the brave thing to do as at least it is trying to fight while still trying to avoid a fight.

    So while he flees he cast a spell called float which allows him to run over the pit trap without falling into it. It runs over the trap and the player chasing falls into the pit.

     

    The fight takes place that way because that particular monster had individual traits that, when choices were available, could be used by the monster to motivate it in a certain direction. This monster has the following traits: -

    Brave

    Devious

    Self preservation

    Doesn't like to fight

     

    Change any one of those traits and the fight would (or at least could) do in a whole different direct. Imagine the monster wasn't devious and just ran. What if it was a coward, would it surrender after the first attack by the player. What if it has huge ego syndrome and stuck around to fight.

    Essentially the combat is limited by the traits each monster might have and how they can be used in the surroundings to provide options for the action taken. Each level of operation in the process and each option available for each level means the variations for how each fight can go can be as varied as the operators that the developers supply.

     

    I am really stoked at the possibilities here. I have always wanted to have a really detailed incorporation of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs and this is probably able to do just that.

     

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,698
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     

    You are like a dog with a bone, even when shown evidence in a interview from Storybricks devs saying there system covers combat AI you still go on like its not. I suggest you spend some time reading on the subject. This video covered one part of what they are doing, how story works with their system. (((eye roll)))

    The same methodology can be applied to combat AI as non combat AI although so far none of the presentations have shown or covered combat.

    For example....

     

    Combat starts

    Player makes a hostile action to Monster (Monster for convenience sake as could be anything controlled by the system).

    Monster check available options to respond to a hostile action. The list is covered by the flight or fight action list and includes: -

    Backing up and running away

    Dodging and readying a weapon to block

    Dodging and preparing a spell

    Drawing weapon and aggressively reposting

    Shouting for help

    Surrendering

    Monster decides to dodge and prepare a spell. Options available for spells are: -

    cast defensive fight spell

    cast defensive flight spell

    cast aggressive fight spell

    cast aggressive flight spell

    The monster has a trait where, while not a coward they tend to try and avoid fights but still act bravely when forced, so chooses to cast a defensive fight spell and raises a shield to block the incoming attack.

    The player attacks and lands a very hard hit, bypassing the defensive shield.

    The monster realises it is out matched and so chooses a defensive flight spell now. It has tried to fight but now realises it is not going to win and having a trait where it is self preserving it looks at options to get away from the fight..

    The monster casts an aggressive flight spell which propels him backwards 50 feet but does so via an explosion that causes damage to the player.

    The player takes the hit but decides to chase the monster.

    The monster now runs.

    But it has a devious trait and realises that he can lure the player into a trap that was put down earlier. It decides that this would be the brave thing to do as at least it is trying to fight while still trying to avoid a fight.

    So while he flees he cast a spell called float which allows him to run over the pit trap without falling into it. It runs over the trap and the player chasing falls into the pit.

     

    The fight takes place that way because that particular monster had individual traits that, when choices were available, could be used by the monster to motivate it in a certain direction. This monster has the following traits: -

    Brave

    Devious

    Self preservation

    Doesn't like to fight

     

    Change any one of those traits and the fight would (or at least could) do in a whole different direct. Imagine the monster wasn't devious and just ran. What if it was a coward, would it surrender after the first attack by the player. What if it has huge ego syndrome and stuck around to fight.

    Essentially the combat is limited by the traits each monster might have and how they can be used in the surroundings to provide options for the action taken. Each level of operation in the process and each option available for each level means the variations for how each fight can go can be as varied as the operators that the developers supply.

     

    I am really stoked at the possibilities here. I have always wanted to have a really detailed incorporation of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs and this is probably able to do just that.

     

     

    http://www.junkiesnation.com/2013/09/10/storybricks-and-soe-answer-some-questions/ 

     

    QUOTE: Will mobs make tactical errors based on things like emotion, or pressure?

    Terry Michaels: There are a lot of factors that can go into the decision making of the creatures in the world. We do not believe that a syststrong that always makes the perfect decision is either fun or engaging to players.

    Storybricks: We want the combat AI to be responsive to opportunities, exploit player mistakes, take advantage of newly created terrain, etc. Creatures are capable of gauging the “utility” of each of their activities in real time, how desirable each given action is. This means that a lot of factors can be taken into account in these calculations, emotions and pressure are just two possible examples of things they could consider.

     

    (read it all from the link I posted, there is lots on how Storybricks AI will cross over into combat as well, its not just a story tool)

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    You are like a dog with a bone, even when shown evidence in a interview from Storybricks devs saying there system covers combat AI you still go on like its not. I suggest you spend some time reading on the subject. This video covered one part of what they are doing, how story works with their system. (((eye roll)))

    You should just pay more attention to the information at hand.  I never said that StoryBricks wasn't going to cover combat in some form.  I said their emergent AI system is far more complex and far reaching than something as trivial as combat.  It's a game changer because it's doing something completely new that other games haven't done before and it's going to have a drastic impact on the actual world.

    People get so focused on combat combat combat.  Ya ya storybricks is going to have their system play some part in combat algorithms.  Big whop.  You're simply missing the big picture, and I'm not.

     

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  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    OK .. LISTEN UP PEEPS..   (especially those fans of Storybricks)

         Business is business, and the goal of business is to make money..  Here is simple reality for you..  We have always had the technology to make complex AI's that can simulate random behavior.. However if you make the AI too hard, or too complex you will alienate most of your customer base..  This would be like forcing people to play 3D chess, when most just want simple checkers..  The market and player base will TELL SOE with their wallets what AI they want..  If the combat AI is too challenging, or NPC factions too restrictive, people will leave the game = NO PROFIT..  Friends and guildies love to group up, and if factions AI becomes too restrictive because this person in group or that person.. etc etc..  That game play will never be accepted.. So is EQN a "social" game, or are they targeting the solo player? 

        As they say, "the game will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator"  for $$$$ purposes..  Clear enough?

  • irpugbossirpugboss Member UncommonPosts: 427

    Their AI logic doesn't seem like anything new or ground breaking via if, then, else setups...

    buttttt their user interface and simplicity is what makes it appealing because you could mass crowdsource "custom" NPC behaviors...this right here is amazing!

    Much like Landmark, with a User driven NPC AI  development alongside professional AI development at a faster pace using Storybricks the virtual world can become much more deep and interesting through more interactive or dynamic AI.

    Imagine if EQN gets custom NPCs from Landmark players, and there are say only 10,000 quality NPCs created by players and devs combined. That is 10,000 NPCs with likes dislikes, interaction points, and "agendas" in a virtual world. The relationships would be interesting IMO, to see these individually created NPCs interact when put in a live environment. Then ontop of that the players pretty much act as the variables to mix up the conditions which NPCs react to over time.

    image
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,698
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    OK .. LISTEN UP PEEPS..   (especially those fans of Storybricks)

         Business is business, and the goal of business is to make money..  Here is simple reality for you..  We have always had the technology to make complex AI's that can simulate random behavior.. However if you make the AI too hard, or too complex you will alienate most of your customer base..  This would be like forcing people to play 3D chess, when most just want simple checkers..  The market and player base will TELL SOE with their wallets what AI they want..  If the combat AI is too challenging, or NPC factions too restrictive, people will leave the game = NO PROFIT..  Friends and guildies love to group up, and if factions AI becomes too restrictive because this person in group or that person.. etc etc..  That game play will never be accepted.. So is EQN a "social" game, or are they targeting the solo player? 

        As they say, "the game will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator"  for $$$$ purposes..  Clear enough?

    Storybricks combat AI is not so hard you cant beat it, its combat that simulates real human behavior in combat. Think of it where you take away a NPCs worth of life. Questing you take his home, family and honor. So when the story comes to head and you fight him. He fights like a man depressed or enraged. In combat he acts out these emotions just like a real person, maybe getting bonuses on some things and other skills like healing are removed because he is fighting without abandon. While your fighting he yells back the wrong you have done to him and it enrages him and heals him 10%. You get him down to 10% HP and he kneels and says you have taken everything from me you may as well take my life. You can kill him while he does not fight back or you can walk away. This is the type of AI we are talking about not super hard mode but one that mirrors real life.

    For regular NPCs, the AI can have rules like "If you are fighting with a X class use Y tactics" "If there is X type terrain use Y tactics" Again not to make it so hard people wana quit the game. But NPCs acting like a human would in a fight. Or for that matter like a goblin, Dark Elf or a Dwarf. Their characteristics can be written into how they fight, be that race, person or class. 

  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,476
    Sony instead of spending so much money on a new game that a lot of folks do not care for, why not make a lot of money on a game that's already made. EQ with a new graphic's engine. Im I the only one who can see this ?
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  • ice-vortexice-vortex Member UncommonPosts: 960
    Originally posted by Elsabolts
    Sony instead of spending so much money on a new game that a lot of folks do not care for, why not make a lot of money on a game that's already made. EQ with a new graphic's engine. Im I the only one who can see this ?

    You might want to take off the nostalgia glasses.

  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    Yes you're the only one. EQ was great back in 1999 but it would be a joke if re-released today.
  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092

    Yup.  I played EQ hardcore from 1999 launch to about 2004.  It still ranks as one of my favorite gaming experiences of all time, but if they just remade EQ with better graphics today, i'd probably only play it for 1 or 2 months before I moved on to something else.

    I'm excited to see how EQN turns out.  Horizontal progression could cure a lot of issues that many MMORPGs today have.  Emergent AI could change the way we play MMOs in general and a non-boring, action based combat system would combine with all these things to make something I could see myself hanging around for years to come.

     

    If you want a EQ-clone, there are 1000 games out there right now that do just that, and we see how popular all but one of them is lol.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,698
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    Yup.  I played EQ hardcore from 1999 launch to about 2004.  It still ranks as one of my favorite gaming experiences of all time, but if they just remade EQ with better graphics today, i'd probably only play it for 1 or 2 months before I moved on to something else.

    I'm excited to see how EQN turns out.  Horizontal progression could cure a lot of issues that many MMORPGs today have.  Emergent AI could change the way we play MMOs in general and a non-boring, action based combat system would combine with all these things to make something I could see myself hanging around for years to come.

     

    If you want a EQ-clone, there are 1000 games out there right now that do just that, and we see how popular all but one of them is lol.

    I think no one loves a rerun as much as we think. I agree EQ1 is best left to being EQ1 and move on to making EQN its own thing. I am worried about one thing, no trinity, as no MMO to date has held me that removed it and GW2 was an awesome game but taught me how much I love the trinity. I really hope SoE does find a way to make a game without a trinity that isnt a zerg style game. Trinity system is the only MMO mechanic that adds tactics on a level that makes PvE raid worthy. Where cooperation is vital and needed. I get no taunt class makes PvP better. I hope SoE really has something here as I want to fall in love with EQ all over again =-)

  • FingzFingz Member UncommonPosts: 139

    I hope I'm wrong but when it comes to players versus content, players often find ways to exploit content.  Storybricks have a lot of promise but I wonder how secure they are.

    If exploits are found and they can't be plugged up, Storybricks will be nerfed.

     

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by Elsabolts
    Sony instead of spending so much money on a new game that a lot of folks do not care for, why not make a lot of money on a game that's already made. EQ with a new graphic's engine. Im I the only one who can see this ?

    Do you think EQ lost so many players and didn't bring in the millions upon millions of new gamers because of the graphics?

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    OK .. LISTEN UP PEEPS..   (especially those fans of Storybricks)

         Business is business, and the goal of business is to make money..  Here is simple reality for you..  We have always had the technology to make complex AI's that can simulate random behavior.. However if you make the AI too hard, or too complex you will alienate most of your customer base..  This would be like forcing people to play 3D chess, when most just want simple checkers..  The market and player base will TELL SOE with their wallets what AI they want..  If the combat AI is too challenging, or NPC factions too restrictive, people will leave the game = NO PROFIT..  Friends and guildies love to group up, and if factions AI becomes too restrictive because this person in group or that person.. etc etc..  That game play will never be accepted.. So is EQN a "social" game, or are they targeting the solo player? 

        As they say, "the game will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator"  for $$$$ purposes..  Clear enough?

    You seem to be really stuck on the whole "Unbeatable AI has been around forever" concept. Who is asking for that?

    You are simply missing what Storybricks is doing with combat and non-combat content that simply has never been done, at least not on a AAA mmorpg that I know of. Feel free to point out a game (any genre) that has done what Storybricks is trying.

    This whole "people won't pay for it" is based on what? You polled the entire gamer population after they played such a game? I'm going to assume you didn't watch the Storybricks presentation I linked or the 2nd from another guy in the industry with a similar concept, or it is just too much for you to comprehend.

    The system isn't "random" in pure sense of the term. Do you "randomly" do everything you do or do you have desires-wants-needs-reasoning behind what you do? Obviously it is game AI and there is a limit to it, but you are really oversimplifying.

    No one is asking for unbeatable/unrealistic combat/behaviors. That isn't what they are showing us if again you actually look into it and don't just go "meh I don't think that is possible or will work so it won't, the end."

    You are a perfect example of someone so stuck on what has come before to look towards what else is possible.

    The 3rd link I provided (2nd vid) talks briefly about Zero-Sum and Non-Zero Sum designs. I think this is where you are stuck. Doubt you care or will look into it, but I'm glad SOE is willing to break away from the bland old ways and try something new. You seem stuck being grumpy with the old ways yet aren't willing to accept a new way. Makes sense...

  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    Originally posted by Fingz

    I hope I'm wrong but when it comes to players versus content, players often find ways to exploit content.  Storybricks have a lot of promise but I wonder how secure they are.

    If exploits are found and they can't be plugged up, Storybricks will be nerfed.

     

    um... what? if exploits or bugs are found they will be fixed.

     

    do you people not understand that storybricks is a new way of assembling modifiers that drive the AI and not some special function in the game? Essentially storybricks simplifies an extremely complicated language allowing for a ridiculous amount of customization when it comes to a game's AI. each brick is a combination of a bunch of different scripts with if/else modifiers.

     

     

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Originally posted by Rydeson

    OK .. LISTEN UP PEEPS..   (especially those fans of Storybricks)

         Business is business, and the goal of business is to make money..  Here is simple reality for you..  We have always had the technology to make complex AI's that can simulate random behavior.. However if you make the AI too hard, or too complex you will alienate most of your customer base..  This would be like forcing people to play 3D chess, when most just want simple checkers..  The market and player base will TELL SOE with their wallets what AI they want..  If the combat AI is too challenging, or NPC factions too restrictive, people will leave the game = NO PROFIT..  Friends and guildies love to group up, and if factions AI becomes too restrictive because this person in group or that person.. etc etc..  That game play will never be accepted.. So is EQN a "social" game, or are they targeting the solo player? 

        As they say, "the game will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator"  for $$$$ purposes..  Clear enough?

    Storybricks combat AI is not so hard you cant beat it, its combat that simulates real human behavior in combat. Think of it where you take away a NPCs worth of life. Questing you take his home, family and honor. So when the story comes to head and you fight him. He fights like a man depressed or enraged. In combat he acts out these emotions just like a real person, maybe getting bonuses on some things and other skills like healing are removed because he is fighting without abandon. While your fighting he yells back the wrong you have done to him and it enrages him and heals him 10%. You get him down to 10% HP and he kneels and says you have taken everything from me you may as well take my life. You can kill him while he does not fight back or you can walk away. This is the type of AI we are talking about not super hard mode but one that mirrors real life. (this is all assumption on your part,, correct)???

    For regular NPCs, the AI can have rules like "If you are fighting with a X class use Y tactics" "If there is X type terrain use Y tactics" Again not to make it so hard people wana quit the game. But NPCs acting like a human would in a fight. Or for that matter like a goblin, Dark Elf or a Dwarf. Their characteristics can be written into how they fight, be that race, person or class. 

         I'm confused why or who you are arguing with or debating with here..  Certainly not me..  I really don't give a rats booty about Storybricks AI..  They and their fans can brag all day long how real it feels.. etc etc.. but in the end, the "CODE" is going to be dumbed down to a watered down faction game.. Everyone wants to tote how the AI matters, and that is the catch.. If the AI truly mattes and likes and dislikes are recorded.. When people are grouped, the AI will be exposed to all it's flaws.. If the AI makes it easy for groups to exploit those flaws, NERF the AI.. if the AI is too punitive or restrictive for social gaming.. NERF the AI..  Simple example would be EQ1 with factions back in the ToV days.. Where you Kael or Veeshan faction because you couldn't be both and when guilds raided.. YOU had to choose, and that became an issue to some.. 

         BTW.. I hope I run across a NPC that hates me so much that he wants to kill me more then anyone else.. so while he's chasing me, my group members can KILL HIM, while my hate (taunt) keeps him busy.. See how that can be exploited?  We call that kiting..  Very popular in EQ1.. It's only a mater of time before the community learns the AI code and how to exploit it.. I can see it now in open chat..

    /group looking for tank with 600 hate with Orcs,.. pst..  

    [mod edit]

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    Yup.  I played EQ hardcore from 1999 launch to about 2004.  It still ranks as one of my favorite gaming experiences of all time, but if they just remade EQ with better graphics today, i'd probably only play it for 1 or 2 months before I moved on to something else.

    I'm excited to see how EQN turns out.  Horizontal progression could cure a lot of issues that many MMORPGs today have.  Emergent AI could change the way we play MMOs in general and a non-boring, action based combat system would combine with all these things to make something I could see myself hanging around for years to come.

     

    If you want a EQ-clone, there are 1000 games out there right now that do just that, and we see how popular all but one of them is lol.

    I think no one loves a rerun as much as we think. I agree EQ1 is best left to being EQ1 and move on to making EQN its own thing. I am worried about one thing, no trinity, as no MMO to date has held me that removed it and GW2 was an awesome game but taught me how much I love the trinity. I really hope SoE does find a way to make a game without a trinity that isnt a zerg style game. Trinity system is the only MMO mechanic that adds tactics on a level that makes PvE raid worthy. Where cooperation is vital and needed. I get no taunt class makes PvP better. I hope SoE really has something here as I want to fall in love with EQ all over again =-)

    Ya, it's clear people don't want an enhanced graphical version of EQ1.  There are a ton of MMORPGs out there that have follow nearly the exact same formula as EQ, some of them even with harsh death penalties, hard leveling times and more than trinity class roles, yet they flop hard every time.

    As much as we want to experience that thrill that EQ gave us, it's not going to happen from just doing the same old same old all over again with shiny shaders and higher polygon count.

    While I agree that trinity can be fun, I'd disagree that GW2 wasn't fun in it's own way.  I played GW2 with a static group for about 5 or 6 months.  Did all the end game content.  We had roles laid out in our group, like my wife and I focused on protection and healing, while my brother went dps and my friend went for CC.  It worked great for us and it made our dungeon runs very fun and organized.

    It had good game play, it just did it differently, without leaning on hard requirements.  I kinda liked the freedom GW2 gave you, because it separated the good players from the bad.  Sure, you could play anything you wanted.  You could go full DPS and put zero into defense or HP.  You could do a dungeon with any set of players with any set of builds, but your group experience would probably suck hard.  I think it was nice for developers, for once, take the training wheels off and just let people have the freedom to either succeed, or hang themselves with it.

    But we all like what we like and if you want a more rigid role/character builder system, that's totally cool.  My wife is the same way.  She loves games where she can play a pure CC class and I can totally see the appeal.  It's less confusing and more structured for sure.

    As far as EQN is concerned, I think they've made it clear that there will be "roles", and role diversity in a group is going to be a great thing for making the content easier to tackle, but they're taking the training wheels off.  They sound like they're not afraid to let you fail or succeed in your own way, and I really like that.

    When you force a very specific and rigid group makeup on the playerbase, you get a lot of unneeded heartache.  You create a system where people feel forced or obligated to play a role they may not want to play.  You create a game world where you sit around spamming LFG because you're playing a common role, or you sit with a full group -1, bored, waiting for a healer to join up, or to get a CC character in the group.

    But from the sounds of it, in EQN, they're not taking away roles, but rather aiming to allow for different mixes to excel and fail at different things and giving you the freedom to change your role or tweak your build on the fly.  Hopefully this will give trinity lovers enough structure, while giving the player base at large enough freedom to enjoy the game as they see fit.

     

    But this is mostly hopes and wishes.  We'll see what they actually got in store for us in 13 days.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    I would like to mention that UO had no trinity and it worked quite well. I would expect the group dynamics in EQN to be similar. They already stated that they wanted roles to play more like something you'd find in a MOBA rather than an MMO. This means there will be heals and damage mitigation / enemy distraction abilities.
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