I am a fan of hardcore raids but my point is that 40 mans are a step up in terms of organization even from 25 mans which is why blizzard did away with 40's. The reason that they went to the 10 man/25 man format in WOTLK was because too many people complained about not being able to see T6 in TBC so the original thought was we will keep 25 mans for the more hardcore and have 10 mans be for more casual types which personally I didn't mind that model. The issue came to play when they made 10/25 reward all the same titles/loot/etc which then in turn caused a lot of guilds to split up.
I favored the TBC raiding where there were a variety of raids, both 10 and 25 and the 25 man raids were gated from tier to tier. Which basically meant that anyone could run Kara or ZA but only a people in 25 man guilds could run 25 mans.
The idea that more people = harder is a myth. Unfortunately game devs are often rather poor software developers or not actually software developers at all and don't really understand complexity analysis.
However having more people makes it less likely to get everything lined up you need more recruiting. You need to make sure more schedule line up. Its not harder but is less likely to actually get off the ground.
40 man raids have a higher barrier of entry, but not a higher barrier for actually doing them. This is, for a game, a bad thing.
I am a fan of hardcore raids but my point is that 40 mans are a step up in terms of organization even from 25 mans which is why blizzard did away with 40's. The reason that they went to the 10 man/25 man format in WOTLK was because too many people complained about not being able to see T6 in TBC so the original thought was we will keep 25 mans for the more hardcore and have 10 mans be for more casual types which personally I didn't mind that model. The issue came to play when they made 10/25 reward all the same titles/loot/etc which then in turn caused a lot of guilds to split up.
I favored the TBC raiding where there were a variety of raids, both 10 and 25 and the 25 man raids were gated from tier to tier. Which basically meant that anyone could run Kara or ZA but only a people in 25 man guilds could run 25 mans.
The idea that more people = harder is a myth. Unfortunately game devs are often rather poor software developers or not actually software developers at all and don't really understand complexity analysis.
However having more people makes it less likely to get everything lined up you need more recruiting. You need to make sure more schedule line up. Its not harder but is less likely to actually get off the ground.
40 man raids have a higher barrier of entry, but not a higher barrier for actually doing them. This is, for a game, a bad thing.
And it's entirely by necessity. It's hard enough to get 20 people to execute commands properly. When you add another 20 people on top of that logic would state that it would become twice as difficult. So, you get the FEELING that it's more epic (though read my last post to see why I disagree) and you actually have less intense boss mechanics to make up for the fact that 40 people putting their heads together are twice as dumb as 20 people doing so.
Go to an office meetin with 20 people. 19 of them are coasting. Go to an office meeting with 40 people. you will get NOTHING done.
So what do you get for 40 man rids. Easier fights, a higher barrier of entry, a logistical nightmare, more guild drama/poaching/cliche'/voice chat that is all over the place/less intimacy because no one really gets to know one another since people are constantly coming and going and it's just too many people to really get to know.
If the entire game wasn't such a grind, and it wasn't $75 to start playing, then maybe WildStar would have the population willing to work towards attunement and fill up 40 man raids. Many of you made a valid point that the developers shouldn't have tried so hard to bring back how WoW raiding used to be.
The reason 40 man raiding worked back then and not now is because, for one, every aspect of WoW back in vanilla was entertaining (or just was at the time because there weren't too many alternatives.) The questing and dungeons to cap, the attunements were fun, and the community was vast and ready to raid. Also now, there are so many FTP MMO's that many players aren't willing to try a new game and pay for it.
WildStar is a great game so far, and it will start to develop more and more as time goes on. Hopefully they fix PvP and the boring quest grind but only time will tell.
If we all stop being nostalgic and just enjoy the came, we might not be so critical.
Gregory Gubish Video Game/Movie Blogger www.goobsworld.com
Uhm...in L2 there are a ton of bosses spread out across the map of varying difficulty. Some of these bosses early in the game's life brought 100s of players in to defeat. 100s! ...large raid boss encounters are 100% fine, they are just usually a "weekend " thing when everyone is on. I hope they never go away. Wildstar's issue is that this IS the end game. Large raids are fine as long as you have other content to do as well.
My guild is looking forward to getting into 20-man raiding, seems a perfect fit for us. If we 'can' do 40 at some point, whatever, but we are content with the lower option they have provided.
If the entire game wasn't such a grind, and it wasn't $75 to start playing, then maybe WildStar would have the population willing to work towards attunement and fill up 40 man raids. Many of you made a valid point that the developers shouldn't have tried so hard to bring back how WoW raiding used to be.
The reason 40 man raiding worked back then and not now is because, for one, every aspect of WoW back in vanilla was entertaining (or just was at the time because there weren't too many alternatives.) The questing and dungeons to cap, the attunements were fun, and the community was vast and ready to raid. Also now, there are so many FTP MMO's that many players aren't willing to try a new game and pay for it.
WildStar is a great game so far, and it will start to develop more and more as time goes on. Hopefully they fix PvP and the boring quest grind but only time will tell.
If we all stop being nostalgic and just enjoy the came, we might not be so critical.
Pretty sure Wild Star is left than $50 to start playing. Deluxe is hardly a necessity to get to start playing.
The 40 man raid size causing problems is nothing new to anyone here, hence why the blizz did away with it.
I think FFXIV really nailed it with the 8man raid size. When you go above that number, you get cliques that cause internal guild drama, you get larger scale attendance issues which causes pugging, and you don't really get a feeling of comradery. These issues effect even some of the most high-end raiding groups in WoW.
Furthermore, I wish blizzard had stuck with the 10man raid size moving forward or atleast had done the 20man raid size that they plan for warlords since the start of time. Not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a group of 10 and group of 25, having more battle ressurections is just too valuable and at one point 25 man even gave better gear. Maybe it was the same person who thought 40 man raiding was a good idea.
I dunno, seems they designed the game for those who wanted to do hardcore, 40 man raiding, and I respect them for having a vision, even if it means in the long run this might be a niche title like EVE in terms of interest.
I knew this was the sort of end game they were going to provide, so I decided not to play because I'm done with that style of game play. But if there's enough interest I would think this game will do fine in the long run, even if it never is a WOW killer.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Iceman8235 Wildstar tried to mix a lot of the old school thought processes with a lot of the newer styles of doing things. You have 40 man raids, but you can pretty much solo your way to max level. You have long attunement grinds, but you have quest hubs and fast travel. I think they put so much effort into trying to appeal to everyone that they missed the mark on most. If they just put their foot down and decided what category of gamers they wanted to target for their game I feel like they would've been better off.
If Blizzard knows best they would not make so many mistakes from the start in EVERY one of their games.The logic and end result i see from their teams is laughable,almost like they go ions with no reaction but then make split second decisions based over a couple beers or something.
The logic of removing 40 man raids again shows Blizzard doesn't have a clue.So what if some don't like it,then make content that satisfies the others like idk perhaps 24 man raid or 12 man raid or 6 man group content.There is even a more intelligent way but not like Blizzard has a clue.They could allow ANY amount of players to join in,their challenge would be scaled to the amount of players.This allows everyone to still do the content and always feel the same challenge,within reason,less than 5 or 6 gets lame.
There is nothing in a 40 man raid you can't do in a simple 6 man group ,.unless the developer is incompetent.If the main challenge is a high Boss regen then scale it down to meet the player count,if it is the hit points then scale that back,if it is the adds then scales those back,it is ALWAYS doable at ANY size group as long as all needed mechanics are covered,example healing,tanking dps ect ect.You most certainly do NOT need 40 players to cover all base.
And that just what Flex raid is doing now and that is how new LFR model will do in WoD with raid.
"I for one was a fan of the 40 man raid format but most of WoWs 40 mans didn't actually require 40 players to raid." I disagree
Can anyone show me a 40 man wildstar raid? I googled it and came up with none. Wildstar being as young as it is, I would say they failed if people are flying thru the content that fast. Wildstar is hard at first, but with practice it can be mastered.
I am expecting month by month more content to be released, just too soon to say anything about the 40 man content, till people master the 20 man. I am willing to bet after people master the 20 man raids, the 40 mans will take the game to the level you are waiting for after completing the 20 man raids.
As far as getting 40 people into raids, getting there, getting started, etc. never did take us long in wow when we did 40 mans. Its all about organization. I feel in time, the right players will get with the right guild and etc. The game is too new to say for sure. In time I think once everyone falls in the right group of people things will get smoother. Right now I am still looking for the right guild that fits my need.
Its been hard to find the guild with so many guilds, saying one thing and not even close to being ready. BTW I am on Stormtalon looking for an organized exile guild doing 20 mans. I play in the evening anytime. I am a medic and can play both classes. lol
In time I think it will be a blast doing 40 man raids, and I hope it will be a challenge to get there. I am in no hurry to blast thru everything in this game in 2-3 months. I guess I like my ass kicked in games, because I keep coming back for more.
The thing that worried me the most in this post isn't if 40 man raids are viable or not, it was the comment about players hitting 50 in 3 days.
This for me is the biggest problem with current MMO's and has been for several years. This reaching the level cap in x days or a week or 2 weeks. Even vanilla WoW took longer. I think it was a month on my server before anyone hit the cap and that's still too fast. Maybe if players took a bit longer levelling then we wouldn't be quite so worried about the endgame.
Then again it's always been more about the journey for me and that may not be everyone elses focus. Each to their own I suppose. I was seriously considering giving WS a shot but but that 3 days comment alone has put me right off.
I don't remember anyone actually liking 40 man raids in WoW. We all loved it when they started doing 25 mans. I know lots of people that disliked the 10 mans though. So if I were making a raiding game I would probably have done 20-25 man raid content as that seems the sweet spot based on my experiences.
Personally my reasons for playing Wildstar are entirely unrelated to its actual gameplay. It's because the game looks very dated yet performs worse on my machine than games such as Skyrim or Far Cry 3.
Originally posted by Iceman8235 Wildstar tried to mix a lot of the old school thought processes with a lot of the newer styles of doing things. You have 40 man raids, but you can pretty much solo your way to max level. You have long attunement grinds, but you have quest hubs and fast travel. I think they put so much effort into trying to appeal to everyone that they missed the mark on most. If they just put their foot down and decided what category of gamers they wanted to target for their game I feel like they would've been better off.
If Blizzard knows best they would not make so many mistakes from the start in EVERY one of their games.The logic and end result i see from their teams is laughable,almost like they go ions with no reaction but then make split second decisions based over a couple beers or something.
The logic of removing 40 man raids again shows Blizzard doesn't have a clue.So what if some don't like it,then make content that satisfies the others like idk perhaps 24 man raid or 12 man raid or 6 man group content.There is even a more intelligent way but not like Blizzard has a clue.They could allow ANY amount of players to join in,their challenge would be scaled to the amount of players.This allows everyone to still do the content and always feel the same challenge,within reason,less than 5 or 6 gets lame.
There is nothing in a 40 man raid you can't do in a simple 6 man group ,.unless the developer is incompetent.If the main challenge is a high Boss regen then scale it down to meet the player count,if it is the hit points then scale that back,if it is the adds then scales those back,it is ALWAYS doable at ANY size group as long as all needed mechanics are covered,example healing,tanking dps ect ect.You most certainly do NOT need 40 players to cover all base.
Have you actually done any 40man RAIDs in Vanilla WoW?? Come on now!
How many People today have the time to sit 6-8 hours straight in front of the PC in one stretch? As that was what was required of 40man RAIDing at the time in Vanilla WoW!
Even the 10man Dungeons like UBRS took 3-4 hours straight to complete on avarge, depending on the experience of the group you were in.
You have to understand that the number of Elite Guilds that had all this stuff on farm status were far and between and were constantly falling apart due to social issues.
In the end, hardly anyone bothered doing 40man RAIDs anymore. Hence, why Blizzard stopped making them with TBC.
The same will happen with Wildstar! It's just a fact!
It's a total pain getting 40 people together, yet alone keeping them together during a whole RAID and making them cooperate and follow orders. Hence, why these RAID Guilds kept falling apart due to social issues.
On the subject or raid size, I've never been a fan of set raid sizes, be that 10 25 40 or whatever. No matter how you do it there's always a problem. Either too few players or too many and people get left out, and both of those cases suck.
We know for a fact that raids can be flexible now as we've seen the flexi raids in WoW that will adjust in difficulty depending on how many players are present. I think the whole genre should be taking this approach to raids. Let the players decide how many go, stop forcing players to be left out. The technology is capable of allowing this so why not use it?
40 man raid in vanilla took hours yes... dosen't mean they need to take hours now. When was the last time you saw a raid with as much meaningless trash as molten core?
There's also a definitive difficulty step / epic feel for SOME 40 man raid; sure, you can downsize Ragnaros to a 20 man, or a 10 man without changing much of the feeling. 10 man Patchwerk with higher number would be the same as the 40 man patchwerk... however, stuff like the four horsemen? nope. it's not possible to recreate the epic feeling of 4 horseman in a 10 man setting... dividing the raid into 5, 6 or 8 smaller group, rotating in and out clockwork-like .
There is a point in 40 man raiding... as long as encounter don't revolve around 1-2 tank 7-8 healer and a load of DPS'er.
Flexible raiding, while great for the constumer, is a huge pain in the *** for the developpers. Can you imagine how hard it is to design an encounter for 10 man normal + heroic, 25 man normal + heroic, LFR AND flexible? adds? tank switches? viral dot? fire in the room? cures? stun/ interrupts?... it's a nightmare that most companies can likely not afford ( and personally, i'd much rather have them make 2 different encounter, 1 in a 10 man setting, one in a 20 man setting, than trying to balance every encounter around any number of player ( next is gonna be around any number of player of any classes... wouldn't want to exclude a friend and fmaily guild because it only have 1 healer out of 18 people, right?). There's alot more fun in defeating 2 different encounter in 2 different setting than the same encounters in 2 different setting ( who are supposed to be equal).
Originally posted by Iceman8235 Wildstar tried to mix a lot of the old school thought processes with a lot of the newer styles of doing things. You have 40 man raids, but you can pretty much solo your way to max level. You have long attunement grinds, but you have quest hubs and fast travel. I think they put so much effort into trying to appeal to everyone that they missed the mark on most. If they just put their foot down and decided what category of gamers they wanted to target for their game I feel like they would've been better off.
they did decide what kind of gamer they want.
and they did NOT want the casual "uh plz give me epix" raider.
they totaly knew they wouldn't get blizzard's 8 million subscribers, and they never wanted em.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by Iceman8235 Wildstar tried to mix a lot of the old school thought processes with a lot of the newer styles of doing things. You have 40 man raids, but you can pretty much solo your way to max level. You have long attunement grinds, but you have quest hubs and fast travel. I think they put so much effort into trying to appeal to everyone that they missed the mark on most. If they just put their foot down and decided what category of gamers they wanted to target for their game I feel like they would've been better off.
they did decide what kind of gamer they want.
and they did NOT want the casual "uh plz give me epix" raider.
they totaly knew they wouldn't get blizzard's 8 million subscribers, and they never wanted em.
Did they? What inside track do you have?
Like every company out there (even if not Carbine, then NCSoft or their shareholders) they want to maximise profit. They may have thought there was a strong niche for hardcore players out there, but I am guessing they hugely over-estimated the size of that niche.
I also hate the term hardcore in reference to this game, unless people truly believe that wasting a shitload of time on gated content = hardcore.
Moving about avoiding telegraphs while I am soloing is one thing but trying it in groups while healing and also trying for silver was simply a goal beyond me. It also ruined my shoulder,elbow and wrist, I admit I am simply lousy at this game. I got kicked out too for taking damage which I suppose if you are going for silver/gold makes perfect sense. I am now back in FFXIV ARR.
Shouldn't base the 40 man raids from WoW. Maybe Wildstar raids are different. In WoW you had to tab target everything. Wildstar you just aim,dodge, jump, kick and scream from near death!!!!!
I remember Molten Core and BWL, +1 hour to gather ppl. 5-6 disconnects, missing healers while 35 ppl stood there waiting, always +5 ppl or more that would absolutly not read about the fight at forhand. Raid lasted sometimes +6 hours with only 1-2 bosses down. Enitre nights wasted because of lacking ppl. Getting an item could take weeks or months (in progresse raid) always someone who disconnected ect.ect.ect....
Those where glory days when Epics where Epics, but I never forget the drawbacks
So I have been playing Wildstar since release and I love the game. However, with the many complaints I have read here on the site and with apparent population issues on some servers, it would appear that blizzard was right in removing 40 man raids.
I for one was a fan of the 40 man raid format but most of WoWs 40 mans didn't actually require 40 players to raid. There was also a substantial amount of carrying that could be done in those 40 mans, this is where Wildstar differs (from what I have read at least). One of the biggest issues with 40 man raid content is the varying degrees of time each person has to play a game. I for one can play about 2 - 3 hours a day 4 - 5 days/week tops which means that it will take someone like me a lot longer to get attuned than someone that can play 5 + hours a day 7 days a week. This means that you may have good players that due to RL take much longer to get attuned to do the 40 mans. This creates a huge issue for people that hit 50 3 days after release and were running 20 mans the first month.
In hind site this has always been the dilemma with 40 man gated raiding. Most 40 man raids in WoW consisted of many PuGs most of which were just there filling up spots. Not to mention that a 40 man raid back in vanilla took 6 + hours in many cases by the time everyone got there, filled the empty spots, made food/consumables, etc. People accepted this because the concept was fairly new and there were limited options.
So why I do like the concept of large scale raids I do believe that Blizzard did away with 40 mans for a valid reason and I'm not sure that bringing them back is ever going to happen. WS is a great game, maybe Carbine should focus on 20 mans, which are much more manageable while still giving players a larger raid feel.
I stopped reading at "many complaints on this site".......that's what happens here. I remember when people were posting they were waiting for Wildstar while complaining about the previous game that was going to be the saviour of the genre.
Comments
The idea that more people = harder is a myth. Unfortunately game devs are often rather poor software developers or not actually software developers at all and don't really understand complexity analysis.
However having more people makes it less likely to get everything lined up you need more recruiting. You need to make sure more schedule line up. Its not harder but is less likely to actually get off the ground.
40 man raids have a higher barrier of entry, but not a higher barrier for actually doing them. This is, for a game, a bad thing.
And it's entirely by necessity. It's hard enough to get 20 people to execute commands properly. When you add another 20 people on top of that logic would state that it would become twice as difficult. So, you get the FEELING that it's more epic (though read my last post to see why I disagree) and you actually have less intense boss mechanics to make up for the fact that 40 people putting their heads together are twice as dumb as 20 people doing so.
Go to an office meetin with 20 people. 19 of them are coasting. Go to an office meeting with 40 people. you will get NOTHING done.
So what do you get for 40 man rids. Easier fights, a higher barrier of entry, a logistical nightmare, more guild drama/poaching/cliche'/voice chat that is all over the place/less intimacy because no one really gets to know one another since people are constantly coming and going and it's just too many people to really get to know.
it's just not worth it.
If the entire game wasn't such a grind, and it wasn't $75 to start playing, then maybe WildStar would have the population willing to work towards attunement and fill up 40 man raids. Many of you made a valid point that the developers shouldn't have tried so hard to bring back how WoW raiding used to be.
The reason 40 man raiding worked back then and not now is because, for one, every aspect of WoW back in vanilla was entertaining (or just was at the time because there weren't too many alternatives.) The questing and dungeons to cap, the attunements were fun, and the community was vast and ready to raid. Also now, there are so many FTP MMO's that many players aren't willing to try a new game and pay for it.
WildStar is a great game so far, and it will start to develop more and more as time goes on. Hopefully they fix PvP and the boring quest grind but only time will tell.
If we all stop being nostalgic and just enjoy the came, we might not be so critical.
Gregory Gubish
Video Game/Movie Blogger
www.goobsworld.com
40 man raids a "new thing"?
Uhm...in L2 there are a ton of bosses spread out across the map of varying difficulty. Some of these bosses early in the game's life brought 100s of players in to defeat. 100s! ...large raid boss encounters are 100% fine, they are just usually a "weekend " thing when everyone is on. I hope they never go away. Wildstar's issue is that this IS the end game. Large raids are fine as long as you have other content to do as well.
Pretty sure Wild Star is left than $50 to start playing. Deluxe is hardly a necessity to get to start playing.
The 40 man raid size causing problems is nothing new to anyone here, hence why the blizz did away with it.
I think FFXIV really nailed it with the 8man raid size. When you go above that number, you get cliques that cause internal guild drama, you get larger scale attendance issues which causes pugging, and you don't really get a feeling of comradery. These issues effect even some of the most high-end raiding groups in WoW.
Furthermore, I wish blizzard had stuck with the 10man raid size moving forward or atleast had done the 20man raid size that they plan for warlords since the start of time. Not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a group of 10 and group of 25, having more battle ressurections is just too valuable and at one point 25 man even gave better gear. Maybe it was the same person who thought 40 man raiding was a good idea.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I dunno, seems they designed the game for those who wanted to do hardcore, 40 man raiding, and I respect them for having a vision, even if it means in the long run this might be a niche title like EVE in terms of interest.
I knew this was the sort of end game they were going to provide, so I decided not to play because I'm done with that style of game play. But if there's enough interest I would think this game will do fine in the long run, even if it never is a WOW killer.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And about how Blizzard did it right, you can read from developers from 1st 40-man raids, until today:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/13929586/coffee-with-the-devs-raiding-azeroth-part-1-a-look-back-28-04-2014
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/13935559/coffee-with-the-devs-raiding-azeroth-part-2-from-cataclysm-to-today-29-04-2014
OP is right, too.
And that just what Flex raid is doing now and that is how new LFR model will do in WoD with raid.
"I for one was a fan of the 40 man raid format but most of WoWs 40 mans didn't actually require 40 players to raid." I disagree
Can anyone show me a 40 man wildstar raid? I googled it and came up with none. Wildstar being as young as it is, I would say they failed if people are flying thru the content that fast. Wildstar is hard at first, but with practice it can be mastered.
I am expecting month by month more content to be released, just too soon to say anything about the 40 man content, till people master the 20 man. I am willing to bet after people master the 20 man raids, the 40 mans will take the game to the level you are waiting for after completing the 20 man raids.
As far as getting 40 people into raids, getting there, getting started, etc. never did take us long in wow when we did 40 mans. Its all about organization. I feel in time, the right players will get with the right guild and etc. The game is too new to say for sure. In time I think once everyone falls in the right group of people things will get smoother. Right now I am still looking for the right guild that fits my need.
Its been hard to find the guild with so many guilds, saying one thing and not even close to being ready. BTW I am on Stormtalon looking for an organized exile guild doing 20 mans. I play in the evening anytime. I am a medic and can play both classes. lol
In time I think it will be a blast doing 40 man raids, and I hope it will be a challenge to get there. I am in no hurry to blast thru everything in this game in 2-3 months. I guess I like my ass kicked in games, because I keep coming back for more.
The thing that worried me the most in this post isn't if 40 man raids are viable or not, it was the comment about players hitting 50 in 3 days.
This for me is the biggest problem with current MMO's and has been for several years. This reaching the level cap in x days or a week or 2 weeks. Even vanilla WoW took longer. I think it was a month on my server before anyone hit the cap and that's still too fast. Maybe if players took a bit longer levelling then we wouldn't be quite so worried about the endgame.
Then again it's always been more about the journey for me and that may not be everyone elses focus. Each to their own I suppose. I was seriously considering giving WS a shot but but that 3 days comment alone has put me right off.
I don't remember anyone actually liking 40 man raids in WoW. We all loved it when they started doing 25 mans. I know lots of people that disliked the 10 mans though. So if I were making a raiding game I would probably have done 20-25 man raid content as that seems the sweet spot based on my experiences.
Personally my reasons for playing Wildstar are entirely unrelated to its actual gameplay. It's because the game looks very dated yet performs worse on my machine than games such as Skyrim or Far Cry 3.
Have you actually done any 40man RAIDs in Vanilla WoW?? Come on now!
How many People today have the time to sit 6-8 hours straight in front of the PC in one stretch? As that was what was required of 40man RAIDing at the time in Vanilla WoW!
Even the 10man Dungeons like UBRS took 3-4 hours straight to complete on avarge, depending on the experience of the group you were in.
You have to understand that the number of Elite Guilds that had all this stuff on farm status were far and between and were constantly falling apart due to social issues.
In the end, hardly anyone bothered doing 40man RAIDs anymore. Hence, why Blizzard stopped making them with TBC.
The same will happen with Wildstar! It's just a fact!
It's a total pain getting 40 people together, yet alone keeping them together during a whole RAID and making them cooperate and follow orders. Hence, why these RAID Guilds kept falling apart due to social issues.
On the subject or raid size, I've never been a fan of set raid sizes, be that 10 25 40 or whatever. No matter how you do it there's always a problem. Either too few players or too many and people get left out, and both of those cases suck.
We know for a fact that raids can be flexible now as we've seen the flexi raids in WoW that will adjust in difficulty depending on how many players are present. I think the whole genre should be taking this approach to raids. Let the players decide how many go, stop forcing players to be left out. The technology is capable of allowing this so why not use it?
Designing flexible raid content is too difficult, which is why Blizzard is dropping that for the new expansion.
40 man raid in vanilla took hours yes... dosen't mean they need to take hours now. When was the last time you saw a raid with as much meaningless trash as molten core?
There's also a definitive difficulty step / epic feel for SOME 40 man raid; sure, you can downsize Ragnaros to a 20 man, or a 10 man without changing much of the feeling. 10 man Patchwerk with higher number would be the same as the 40 man patchwerk... however, stuff like the four horsemen? nope. it's not possible to recreate the epic feeling of 4 horseman in a 10 man setting... dividing the raid into 5, 6 or 8 smaller group, rotating in and out clockwork-like .
There is a point in 40 man raiding... as long as encounter don't revolve around 1-2 tank 7-8 healer and a load of DPS'er.
Flexible raiding, while great for the constumer, is a huge pain in the *** for the developpers. Can you imagine how hard it is to design an encounter for 10 man normal + heroic, 25 man normal + heroic, LFR AND flexible? adds? tank switches? viral dot? fire in the room? cures? stun/ interrupts?... it's a nightmare that most companies can likely not afford ( and personally, i'd much rather have them make 2 different encounter, 1 in a 10 man setting, one in a 20 man setting, than trying to balance every encounter around any number of player ( next is gonna be around any number of player of any classes... wouldn't want to exclude a friend and fmaily guild because it only have 1 healer out of 18 people, right?). There's alot more fun in defeating 2 different encounter in 2 different setting than the same encounters in 2 different setting ( who are supposed to be equal).
Wasnt there 100 man raids in everquest?, Why is 40 the pinnacle?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
they did decide what kind of gamer they want.
and they did NOT want the casual "uh plz give me epix" raider.
they totaly knew they wouldn't get blizzard's 8 million subscribers, and they never wanted em.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Did they? What inside track do you have?
Like every company out there (even if not Carbine, then NCSoft or their shareholders) they want to maximise profit. They may have thought there was a strong niche for hardcore players out there, but I am guessing they hugely over-estimated the size of that niche.
I also hate the term hardcore in reference to this game, unless people truly believe that wasting a shitload of time on gated content = hardcore.
I remember Molten Core and BWL, +1 hour to gather ppl. 5-6 disconnects, missing healers while 35 ppl stood there waiting, always +5 ppl or more that would absolutly not read about the fight at forhand. Raid lasted sometimes +6 hours with only 1-2 bosses down. Enitre nights wasted because of lacking ppl. Getting an item could take weeks or months (in progresse raid) always someone who disconnected ect.ect.ect....
Those where glory days when Epics where Epics, but I never forget the drawbacks
I stopped reading at "many complaints on this site".......that's what happens here. I remember when people were posting they were waiting for Wildstar while complaining about the previous game that was going to be the saviour of the genre.
False.^
Both Normal (Flex in MoP) and Heroic (Normal in MoP) are flexilbe raids in sizes from 10 to 25 man for new expansion.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/13942448/dev-watercooler-raiding-azeroth-part-3-warlords-of-draenor-4-30-2014