Originally posted by Vrika My guess is that EQ Next is currently delayed in favor of H1Z1. It feels like SOE is currently releasing more info about H1Z1 even though EQ Next has been in development way longer.
Why would it be delayed? Completely different team (much smaller) working on H1Z1. Companies develop multiple games at a time.
Originally posted by Vrika My guess is that EQ Next is currently delayed in favor of H1Z1. It feels like SOE is currently releasing more info about H1Z1 even though EQ Next has been in development way longer.
Why would it be delayed? Completely different team (much smaller) working on H1Z1. Companies develop multiple games at a time.
True but - always - there is only so much money. Maybe pursuing H1Z1 now and keeping EQN on the back burner may be seen as a way of lowering their risk exposure. Not saying they are btw!
More likely, imo, they could be waiting on Landmark to run its course - and once Landmark has "launched" the EQL team will ramp down and the EQN team will ramp up. Saying they have two teams doesn't mean two big teams
All I keep thinking is that this game will be a late 2016 release. I'm in the Landmark Beta and I'm just hedging my bets that Next is way down the line.
Plus I'm still putting money aside for a new rig so I definitely want Next to be later than sooner.
Originally posted by Ludwik Show me that emergent AI. That's all I care about.
Building, horizontal progression, destructible terrain. Cool features but still have that been there, done that feel.
That emergent AI though. Just imagining a player-like challenge without all the theatrics. Makes me nerdgasm.
You are confused about what the emergent ai system is. It is an exciting feature for sure but it has nearly nothing to do with combat difficulty. It's more of an alternative to spawning/camps/pathing behavior,in an attempt to make the world feel more realistic and alive while giving players a way that adds real in game effects to their actions or inactions
We dont know yet, it could. Up till now its about how we interact with the world but the tools could also be used for combat. How the NPC interact with the classes they have when they fight players. Or on the other side how they fight player X,Y,Z classes. If fighting melee players, use CC and ranged abilities could be a rule.
They could program that sort of functionality into their combat AI system, however that's not "Emergent AI". The Emergent AI system is specifically talking about how monsters spawn, roam and act in the world based on player choices or inactions.
So we don't know what their combat AI will be like, I am correct when I say that's not what "emergent AI" means.
This and some other interviews/comments gave me the impression that Storybricks and the "emergent" AI will play into actual combat itself. Emergent is just a buzzworld, overall I'm assuming in/out of combat the NPCs will react more natural as they've said. With this, combat should have more room for challenge/difficulty instead of the usual meat sack to beat on with a special attack here and there.
Quote from that link...
Will mobs make tactical errors based on things like emotion, or pressure?
Terry Michaels: There are a lot of factors that can go into the decision making of the creatures in the world. We do not believe that a syststrong that always makes the perfect decision is either fun or engaging to players.
Storybricks: We want the combat AI to be responsive to opportunities, exploit player mistakes, take advantage of newly created terrain, etc. Creatures are capable of gauging the “utility” of each of their activities in real time, how desirable each given action is. This means that a lot of factors can be taken into account in these calculations, emotions and pressure are just two possible examples of things they could consider.
Sounds very much like the Storybricks AI also crosses over to combat.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Understandable, just some of us are looking forward to "smarter" enemies. Will be great if mobs move around and do stuff more realistically or natural, but when I go to destroy them, hoping the performance continues. We all want the same thing I believe.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Understandable, just some of us are looking forward to "smarter" enemies. Will be great if mobs move around and do stuff more realistically or natural, but when I go to destroy them, hoping the performance continues. We all want the same thing I believe.
This has been discussed to death - and tried by many dev teams.
Conclusion - players really don't want smarter AI - they just think they do.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Understandable, just some of us are looking forward to "smarter" enemies. Will be great if mobs move around and do stuff more realistically or natural, but when I go to destroy them, hoping the performance continues. We all want the same thing I believe.
This has been discussed to death - and tried by many dev teams.
Conclusion - players really don't want smarter AI - they just think they do.
I'm a player and want "smarter" AI. That's my proof.
I play TF2 and late at night/early morning, I'll get to a point where I look at the scoreboard and notice I and a couple others are outnumbered by Bots on both sides. Usually make the comment that I hadn't even noticed. I'll usually then go to sleep because I've probably been up too late or I'll go find a server with actual players. Simply because I like to know I'm winning/losing vs players in that particular game.
I still enjoyed the time before I noticed what was going on. The AI isn't OP where they always win, nor do they always lose. The AI is nothing special at all.
"Players" have never had a chance to experience better AI in a game such as EQN (that I know of). Testing phases or lobby type games with Bots aren't exactly the same as a entire game populated with NPCs.
Do I want to get facerolled by a rabbit? No. But it would be nice to actually feel like I could potentially lose due to the actions/reactions of an enemy and myself. Not simply, oops I didn't move when the dragon blew the fire and I died because it does a billion damage. Even if the AI is the same difficulty but simply acting more organic, I would be happy. Instead of swing swing swing, super swing, swing swing dead. Swing, dodge, cover, super swing, block, heal, swing, dead.
Storybricks and what SOE seem to have cooking appears to be what some of us are looking for. Maybe not everyone knows what they want (yet). They've pointed out that they have to keep it balanced where it is still fun and not too hard, yet still gives the impression that it is really difficult.
With all this said, it is more then possible to have various degrees of difficulty. Maybe the "I don't want hard AI" people stick to Tier 1-2, but those looking for more of a challenge go further. Similar to how high end raiding works. But if they can still provide endless entertainment for all the Tiers, people will continue to play without feeling like they've been shut out because they don't want or can't handle a certain part of the world.
Lots of speculation on my part, but I still hope it will happen.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
If smarter enemies are not harder - then they are not smarter.
In combat higher intelligence means a harder fight for player, it does not mean that your enemies will offer to solve math problems for you, or engage you in a philosphical debate.
It means they'll use better tactics to kill you.
That's your opinion. Smarter =/= harder to me. A mob simply deciding to run away and find back up would be "smarter" yet isn't posing a harder challenge, at least not until they find back up. Having more variables to work with instead of limited to a very small pool could add to both the smarter/harder potential. The AI isn't going to be hyper realistic, but doesn't mean it can't be some what original and entertaining. A Orc seeing me down the road and deciding if I'm worth attacking or not instead of walking in a circle is "smarter" yet doesn't provide a harder challenge by default.
They are big on "emergent" not "smarter/harder". I'm assuming this means mobs will have weaknesses obvious/not so obvious to the player, just as we will. Instead of players having an unlimited tool set against a sack of HP that just mindlessly swings. Like I said above, I'm doubting a rat will be able to outsmart me (I hope), yet I'm hoping a pack of Orcs don't let me pick them off one by one as I stand 20 ft away in their LOS.
In combat, if mobs are intelligent enough to go after the healer, what stops the mobs from essentially gimping your group by bee-lining for the healer all the time?
Terry Michaels: The AI we are working with Storybricks on has the potential to make many interesting and engaging decisions both in and out of combat. Our goals are to create these syststrongs to promote interesting encounters and interactions and not to “gimp” any particular type of playstyle. You’ll find out more as we continue to announce information about the AI and combat in general. Please stay tuned!
Note that he didn't say mobs will destroy everyone they see because of their super smart AI. Fun factor is key.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
If smarter enemies are not harder - then they are not smarter.
In combat higher intelligence means a harder fight for player, it does not mean that your enemies will offer to solve math problems for you, or engage you in a philosphical debate.
It means they'll use better tactics to kill you.
That's your opinion. Smarter =/= harder to me. A mob simply deciding to run away and find back up would be "smarter" yet isn't posing a harder challenge, at least not until they find back up. Having more variables to work with instead of limited to a very small pool could add to both the smarter/harder potential. The AI isn't going to be hyper realistic, but doesn't mean it can't be some what original and entertaining. A Orc seeing me down the road and deciding if I'm worth attacking or not instead of walking in a circle is "smarter" yet doesn't provide a harder challenge by default.
They are big on "emergent" not "smarter/harder". I'm assuming this means mobs will have weaknesses obvious/not so obvious to the player, just as we will. Instead of players having an unlimited tool set against a sack of HP that just mindlessly swings. Like I said above, I'm doubting a rat will be able to outsmart me (I hope), yet I'm hoping a pack of Orcs don't let me pick them off one by one as I stand 20 ft away in their LOS.
In combat, if mobs are intelligent enough to go after the healer, what stops the mobs from essentially gimping your group by bee-lining for the healer all the time?
Terry Michaels: The AI we are working with Storybricks on has the potential to make many interesting and engaging decisions both in and out of combat. Our goals are to create these syststrongs to promote interesting encounters and interactions and not to “gimp” any particular type of playstyle. You’ll find out more as we continue to announce information about the AI and combat in general. Please stay tuned!
Note that he didn't say mobs will destroy everyone they see because of their super smart AI. Fun factor is key.
That makes no logical sense - this is not a matter of opinion it's a matter of logic.
In combat a smarter enemy uses better tactics - it will fight better, it will be harder.
Smarter *in combat* means a harder fight for the player.
What Terry (and you) are talking about is not *smarter* it's more varied - yes more fun, but it's not smarter.
Chess programs are a great example of increasingly better AI - you set it to beginner level and you can have a fun chess game as the computer will make a lot of DUMB chess moves, you set it on hardest level and even expert chess players get absolutely destroyed.
Which circles back to the same original point -
Players don't really want smarter NPCs - they want fun dumb NPCs that will do more varied things instead of just standing there, but still be easy to kill because they aren't really using any smart tactics.
actually it makes a lot of sense, you just might have decided to dig your feet in and refuse to look at this logically...Let me try and simplify the whole idea...Lets say I am playing Generic-ThemePark Brand MMO X today, and I am fighting an ogre with VERY low intelligence. Lets also say the Ogre is level 5 and I am level 15. The new AI would allow for the smarter game engine and mechanics to allow that stupid Ogre to say, "Gee me haz friends 10 feet away in camp by fire...I gonnu run there and get dem to helpz meh." His friends are all level 5 or lower, so the fight isn't one bit harder for my level 15 character. But the AI allowed that dumb ogre to play "smarter" if you will and use the tiny brain it has to consider his friends are needed in
this fight
Hope this helps. Again, when you look at how brain dead and stupid mob encounters in MMOs today are, the term "smarter" is to some degree relative to that.
Just a guest from what I have been seeing from twitch Landmark feed and that the EQ Next web page is taking beta sign ups. We might see EQ Next alpha testing for us at the SOE Live doings next month as part of the suprise they have been tesing us with.
I do not see EQ Next going live launch till some time in late 2015.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Understandable, just some of us are looking forward to "smarter" enemies. Will be great if mobs move around and do stuff more realistically or natural, but when I go to destroy them, hoping the performance continues. We all want the same thing I believe.
Again, I'm not rallying against a more realistic combat AI system. I'm just stating that's not what the "Emergent AI" system is. So when I hear people equate combat AI to the proposed "Emergent AI" feature, it bugs me. People are so fixated on "good combat AI" that they don't understand what the Emergent AI system is and why it's such a huge game changer, especially for the MMO genre.
Again, I'm not rallying against a more realistic combat AI system. I'm just stating that's not what the "Emergent AI" system is. So when I hear people equate combat AI to the proposed "Emergent AI" feature, it bugs me. People are so fixated on "good combat AI" that they don't understand what the Emergent AI system is and why it's such a huge game changer, especially for the MMO genre.
The "Emergent AI" is the #1 reason I am following EQN. Beyond it, nothing else is that out of the ordinary. I'm just glad that combat is being mixed in to the whole deal instead of having a world full of dynamic NPCs doing stuff, but when I go up to club them over the head they just stand there and take it. Combat is a pretty big deal in a fantasy mmorpg. It shouldn't be the entire focus of a game, but a decent chunk of time is spent going out and tracking down things to kill and it will hopefully be better then what we've come to accept from the genre.
I get what you are saying though. What they are doing (at least what we think they are) should pull the genre forward if done well. "Emergent" is the new buzzword, but it is already being applied to a wide variety of things that might not actually be too next-gen. I'm just going with the mindset that combat and non-combat AI are one and the same. Same as players. I go about my day and may or may not kill things along the way. Hopefully NPCs do the same. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.
Again, I'm not rallying against a more realistic combat AI system. I'm just stating that's not what the "Emergent AI" system is. So when I hear people equate combat AI to the proposed "Emergent AI" feature, it bugs me. People are so fixated on "good combat AI" that they don't understand what the Emergent AI system is and why it's such a huge game changer, especially for the MMO genre.
The "Emergent AI" is the #1 reason I am following EQN. Beyond it, nothing else is that out of the ordinary.
Well that's not completely true. You may not care about other aspects of the game as much, but objectively there's a lot of stuff in what the Devs of EQN are proposing that are far from ordinary and in many cases unique, so you can't say "nothing else is out of the ordinary" for the rest of the proposed features.
For example, a true horizontal progression based MMORPG would be something we haven't really seen yet, at least not from a AAA developer, and has massive implications on how players grow their character, interact with the community at large and tackle the game's content given that it will be far more free-roaming than other vertical progression MMORPGs.
A fully destructible voxel based world that procedurely creates content on multiple shifting layers, is also something that we haven't seen yet from a massive AAA MMO.
EQN is also taking a different approach when it comes to traveling. Making the entire game world viable to play in with horizontal progression, along with a focus on ground based travel being a dynamic and fun part of the game play itself, instead of resorting to non-stop fast traveling is another aspect that has not been hit on by many MMORPGs.
So imho there's a lot more to be excited about when it comes to EQN outside of the amazing sounding emergent AI system. But even if you don't find these kinds of features interesting, you cant' say they're "ordinary". They're a clear departure from many MMO conventions that we've seen over the past 15 years.
Again, I'm not rallying against a more realistic combat AI system. I'm just stating that's not what the "Emergent AI" system is. So when I hear people equate combat AI to the proposed "Emergent AI" feature, it bugs me. People are so fixated on "good combat AI" that they don't understand what the Emergent AI system is and why it's such a huge game changer, especially for the MMO genre.
The "Emergent AI" is the #1 reason I am following EQN. Beyond it, nothing else is that out of the ordinary.
Well that's not completely true. You may not care about other aspects of the game as much, but objectively there's a lot of stuff in what the Devs of EQN are proposing that are far from ordinary and in many cases unique, so you can't say "nothing else is out of the ordinary" for the rest of the proposed features.
For example, a true horizontal progression based MMORPG would be something we haven't really seen yet, at least not from a AAA developer, and has massive implications on how players grow their character, interact with the community at large and tackle the game's content given that it will be far more free-roaming than other vertical progression MMORPGs.
A fully destructible voxel based world that procedurely creates content on multiple shifting layers, is also something that we haven't seen yet from a massive AAA MMO.
EQN is also taking a different approach when it comes to traveling. Making the entire game world viable to play in with horizontal progression, along with a focus on ground based travel being a dynamic and fun part of the game play itself, instead of resorting to non-stop fast traveling is another aspect that has not been hit on by many MMORPGs.
So imho there's a lot more to be excited about when it comes to EQN outside of the amazing sounding emergent AI system. But even if you don't find these kinds of features interesting, you cant' say they're "ordinary". They're a clear departure from many MMO conventions that we've seen over the past 15 years.
I totally agree, I am an EQN fanboi after all
For me though, the AI is #1. All the other elements add up to what is hopefully one if not the best mmorpg experience that I've ever seen/played, but individually I'm not too amazed by any one element. To me, EQN is more a sum of the parts and less about the individual pieces. Except AI. If they had voxels, horizontal progression, more "sandbox" features, etc awesome, but without the AI, to me it would be more of a next step in the current gen and not pulling forward into next-gen territory. Everything together is what can really make EQN stand out and get other companies go along the same path.
I'm looking forward to every single aspect, but AI is what I'm most hyped about.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
If smarter enemies are not harder - then they are not smarter.
In combat higher intelligence means a harder fight for player, it does not mean that your enemies will offer to solve math problems for you, or engage you in a philosphical debate.
It means they'll use better tactics to kill you.
That's your opinion. Smarter =/= harder to me. A mob simply deciding to run away and find back up would be "smarter" yet isn't posing a harder challenge, at least not until they find back up. Having more variables to work with instead of limited to a very small pool could add to both the smarter/harder potential. The AI isn't going to be hyper realistic, but doesn't mean it can't be some what original and entertaining. A Orc seeing me down the road and deciding if I'm worth attacking or not instead of walking in a circle is "smarter" yet doesn't provide a harder challenge by default.
They are big on "emergent" not "smarter/harder". I'm assuming this means mobs will have weaknesses obvious/not so obvious to the player, just as we will. Instead of players having an unlimited tool set against a sack of HP that just mindlessly swings. Like I said above, I'm doubting a rat will be able to outsmart me (I hope), yet I'm hoping a pack of Orcs don't let me pick them off one by one as I stand 20 ft away in their LOS.
In combat, if mobs are intelligent enough to go after the healer, what stops the mobs from essentially gimping your group by bee-lining for the healer all the time?
Terry Michaels: The AI we are working with Storybricks on has the potential to make many interesting and engaging decisions both in and out of combat. Our goals are to create these syststrongs to promote interesting encounters and interactions and not to “gimp” any particular type of playstyle. You’ll find out more as we continue to announce information about the AI and combat in general. Please stay tuned!
Note that he didn't say mobs will destroy everyone they see because of their super smart AI. Fun factor is key.
That makes no logical sense - this is not a matter of opinion it's a matter of logic.
In combat a smarter enemy uses better tactics - it will fight better, it will be harder.
Smarter *in combat* means a harder fight for the player.
What Terry (and you) are talking about is not *smarter* it's more varied - yes more fun, but it's not smarter.
Chess programs are a great example of increasingly better AI - you set it to beginner level and you can have a fun chess game as the computer will make a lot of DUMB chess moves, you set it on hardest level and even expert chess players get absolutely destroyed.
Which circles back to the same original point -
Players don't really want smarter NPCs - they want fun dumb NPCs that will do more varied things instead of just standing there, but still be easy to kill because they aren't really using any smart tactics.
Maybe it was a bad adjective to use, maybe diverse-dynamic-engaging, yadda yadda would be better. My bad.
Or maybe it's just semantics. To me it sounds like we'll perceive the AI as being "smarter" but it is still just game AI and not going to be overthrowing players and taking over the game.
Like I said though, with the Tier system and procedurally generated content, it is possible to include a scale of "difficulty/challenge" along with the more engaging "fun" AI. Instead of mobs simply having more HP-DMG, they could have more tools and ways to use them. 100% of players might not want "smater/harder" content, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of us out there that do. I enjoy dying, getting frustrated, and having to solve a problem. Steam rolling content is not my idea of fun. If they can balance it out, we all win.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
If smarter enemies are not harder - then they are not smarter.
In combat higher intelligence means a harder fight for player, it does not mean that your enemies will offer to solve math problems for you, or engage you in a philosphical debate.
It means they'll use better tactics to kill you.
That's your opinion. Smarter =/= harder to me. A mob simply deciding to run away and find back up would be "smarter" yet isn't posing a harder challenge, at least not until they find back up. Having more variables to work with instead of limited to a very small pool could add to both the smarter/harder potential. The AI isn't going to be hyper realistic, but doesn't mean it can't be some what original and entertaining. A Orc seeing me down the road and deciding if I'm worth attacking or not instead of walking in a circle is "smarter" yet doesn't provide a harder challenge by default.
They are big on "emergent" not "smarter/harder". I'm assuming this means mobs will have weaknesses obvious/not so obvious to the player, just as we will. Instead of players having an unlimited tool set against a sack of HP that just mindlessly swings. Like I said above, I'm doubting a rat will be able to outsmart me (I hope), yet I'm hoping a pack of Orcs don't let me pick them off one by one as I stand 20 ft away in their LOS.
In combat, if mobs are intelligent enough to go after the healer, what stops the mobs from essentially gimping your group by bee-lining for the healer all the time?
Terry Michaels: The AI we are working with Storybricks on has the potential to make many interesting and engaging decisions both in and out of combat. Our goals are to create these syststrongs to promote interesting encounters and interactions and not to “gimp” any particular type of playstyle. You’ll find out more as we continue to announce information about the AI and combat in general. Please stay tuned!
Note that he didn't say mobs will destroy everyone they see because of their super smart AI. Fun factor is key.
That makes no logical sense - this is not a matter of opinion it's a matter of logic.
In combat a smarter enemy uses better tactics - it will fight better, it will be harder.
Smarter *in combat* means a harder fight for the player.
What Terry (and you) are talking about is not *smarter* it's more varied - yes more fun, but it's not smarter.
Chess programs are a great example of increasingly better AI - you set it to beginner level and you can have a fun chess game as the computer will make a lot of DUMB chess moves, you set it on hardest level and even expert chess players get absolutely destroyed.
Which circles back to the same original point -
Players don't really want smarter NPCs - they want fun dumb NPCs that will do more varied things instead of just standing there, but still be easy to kill because they aren't really using any smart tactics.
Maybe it was a bad adjective to use, maybe diverse-dynamic-engaging, yadda yadda would be better. My bad.
Or maybe it's just semantics. To me it sounds like we'll perceive the AI as being "smarter" but it is still just game AI and not going to be overthrowing players and taking over the game.
Like I said though, with the Tier system and procedurally generated content, it is possible to include a scale of "difficulty/challenge" along with the more engaging "fun" AI. Instead of mobs simply having more HP-DMG, they could have more tools and ways to use them. 100% of players might not want "smater/harder" content, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of us out there that do. I enjoy dying, getting frustrated, and having to solve a problem. Steam rolling content is not my idea of fun. If they can balance it out, we all win.
The Emergent AI, as in the system that will spawn creatures into certain areas and direct how they roam the world or take up camp in an area, based on player actions or inaction, is the most next-gen feature they've announced that they were working on.
A completely voxel based destructible world is the next largest next-gen feature they've announced.
Even if they make a semi-decent Combat AI system that reacts differently based on the player group makeup, runs for help when they're out numbered or dying, switches targets based on smart tactical decisions coded in (Switch to attack healers and ignoring low damage tanks for example, like a pvper would), all this would be last-gen.
A lot of games have AI that meets or exceeds what I just laid out, for some time now too. It wouldn't be next gen at all.
Again, combat AI is important, but it's not what makes a game stand the test of time, nor would an above average combat AI be anywhere near as impressive as all the other features they're pushing in EQN.
"Super Metroid" and "A Link to the Past" have some of the most basic and simple combat AI systems you could think of, but they're timeless classics that are still great fun to play even 2 decades later. The AI in the original EQ was substandard, even for the time it released.
People who think great combat AI is the most important feature for a great game are sorely mistaken, as proven by decades of video game releases.
I'm not against them putting a lot of work into a robust combat AI, in fact I hope they do. But to suggest that it would be the thing that makes EQN great, or something that could be considered "next gen" is very incorrect.
Originally posted by Ludwik Show me that emergent AI. That's all I care about.
Building, horizontal progression, destructible terrain. Cool features but still have that been there, done that feel.
That emergent AI though. Just imagining a player-like challenge without all the theatrics. Makes me nerdgasm.
You are confused about what the emergent ai system is. It is an exciting feature for sure but it has nearly nothing to do with combat difficulty. It's more of an alternative to spawning/camps/pathing behavior,in an attempt to make the world feel more realistic and alive while giving players a way that adds real in game effects to their actions or inactions
We dont know yet, it could. Up till now its about how we interact with the world but the tools could also be used for combat. How the NPC interact with the classes they have when they fight players. Or on the other side how they fight player X,Y,Z classes. If fighting melee players, use CC and ranged abilities could be a rule.
They could program that sort of functionality into their combat AI system, however that's not "Emergent AI". The Emergent AI system is specifically talking about how monsters spawn, roam and act in the world based on player choices or inactions.
So we don't know what their combat AI will be like, I am correct when I say that's not what "emergent AI" means.
This and some other interviews/comments gave me the impression that Storybricks and the "emergent" AI will play into actual combat itself. Emergent is just a buzzworld, overall I'm assuming in/out of combat the NPCs will react more natural as they've said. With this, combat should have more room for challenge/difficulty instead of the usual meat sack to beat on with a special attack here and there.
Quote from that link...
Will mobs make tactical errors based on things like emotion, or pressure?
Terry Michaels: There are a lot of factors that can go into the decision making of the creatures in the world. We do not believe that a syststrong that always makes the perfect decision is either fun or engaging to players.
Storybricks: We want the combat AI to be responsive to opportunities, exploit player mistakes, take advantage of newly created terrain, etc. Creatures are capable of gauging the “utility” of each of their activities in real time, how desirable each given action is. This means that a lot of factors can be taken into account in these calculations, emotions and pressure are just two possible examples of things they could consider.
Sounds very much like the Storybricks AI also crosses over to combat.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Nor does it support. That link to the interview shows its more then just spawn and interaction. It also covers NPC combat and tactics. Whats the point of having a new AI that covers how a NPC interacts with you and the land it lives in if it does nothing with combat? Its not only needed but expected. The quote you replied to shows very clearly that not only does it cover what you are saying, but its even more then that.
Originally posted by Ludwik Show me that emergent AI. That's all I care about.
Building, horizontal progression, destructible terrain. Cool features but still have that been there, done that feel.
That emergent AI though. Just imagining a player-like challenge without all the theatrics. Makes me nerdgasm.
You are confused about what the emergent ai system is. It is an exciting feature for sure but it has nearly nothing to do with combat difficulty. It's more of an alternative to spawning/camps/pathing behavior,in an attempt to make the world feel more realistic and alive while giving players a way that adds real in game effects to their actions or inactions
We dont know yet, it could. Up till now its about how we interact with the world but the tools could also be used for combat. How the NPC interact with the classes they have when they fight players. Or on the other side how they fight player X,Y,Z classes. If fighting melee players, use CC and ranged abilities could be a rule.
They could program that sort of functionality into their combat AI system, however that's not "Emergent AI". The Emergent AI system is specifically talking about how monsters spawn, roam and act in the world based on player choices or inactions.
So we don't know what their combat AI will be like, I am correct when I say that's not what "emergent AI" means.
This and some other interviews/comments gave me the impression that Storybricks and the "emergent" AI will play into actual combat itself. Emergent is just a buzzworld, overall I'm assuming in/out of combat the NPCs will react more natural as they've said. With this, combat should have more room for challenge/difficulty instead of the usual meat sack to beat on with a special attack here and there.
Quote from that link...
Will mobs make tactical errors based on things like emotion, or pressure?
Terry Michaels: There are a lot of factors that can go into the decision making of the creatures in the world. We do not believe that a syststrong that always makes the perfect decision is either fun or engaging to players.
Storybricks: We want the combat AI to be responsive to opportunities, exploit player mistakes, take advantage of newly created terrain, etc. Creatures are capable of gauging the “utility” of each of their activities in real time, how desirable each given action is. This means that a lot of factors can be taken into account in these calculations, emotions and pressure are just two possible examples of things they could consider.
Sounds very much like the Storybricks AI also crosses over to combat.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
Nor does it support. That link to the interview shows its more then just spawn and interaction. It also covers NPC combat and tactics. Whats the point of having a new AI that covers how a NPC interacts with you and the land it lives in if it does nothing with combat? Its not only needed but expected. The quote you replied to shows very clearly that not only does it cover what you are saying, but its even more then that.
Gonna be a lot of fun when mobs start to kite players.
The Emergent AI, as in the system that will spawn creatures into certain areas and direct how they roam the world or take up camp in an area, based on player actions or inaction, is the most next-gen feature they've announced that they were working on.
People who think great combat AI is the most important feature for a great game are sorely mistaken, as proven by decades of video game releases.
I'm not against them putting a lot of work into a robust combat AI, in fact I hope they do. But to suggest that it would be the thing that makes EQN great, or something that could be considered "next gen" is very incorrect.
Honestly not sure what you are going on about. Appears you have your definition of what "emergent AI" is, but it doesn't seem to match what the people making EQN are saying.
What line, if any, is drawn between interaction between “Human” NPCs such as guards, merchants, etc and “Monster” NPCs, and what distinctions can be made between interaction between these two groups other than initial “kill on sight” status with the player? Can players in essence abandon the entire world of human NPCs in favor of “going native” among monster NPCs?
Storybricks: We’re not going to talk about design specifics for EverQuest Next. However, we can say that we are creating a unified AI architecture for combat and non-combat behaviors, which means that NPCs inside combat could potentially have a much greater range of reactions to PCs than just “kill on sight” (and a lot more varied goals, as explained in the presentation of rallying calls) and vice-versa: NPCs’ daily lives could be affected by the potential occurence of combat, either as a threat or a goal.
Storybricks is working with SOE on both parts of AI as one or maybe 2 sides of a coin. I don't believe they've said these systems are completely different or function so differently at any point.
You want "emergent" roaming NPCs, I want that plus "emergent" combat. I can only speak for myself, but don't really see many saying combat AI is #1. The AI is #1 for me, which I believe also includes combat. Remove the AI and with all the other stuff EQN is hyping, it would just be another game, a better game, but still just another on the list.
The AI, from NPCs walking around in the city, Orcs gathering to raid a village, and how those same Orcs respond when I say "oh no you don't" are what I'm really excited about. It's great that they are also tossing in voxels, horizontal progress, and an open world. Finally a company is going all out and not just focusing on one system to impress, they are trying to blow everything else out of the water with their fully loaded game.
Again, I pretty much am right there with you and want what you do. Maybe I'm just looking at it differently or have different definitions of all these fun buzzwords.
Gonna be a lot of fun when mobs start to kite players.
If they could make the AI bait players into impending doom, I would throw my wallet at the screen. I know many would probably throw their keyboard at the screen instead, but I would love it.
Gonna be a lot of fun when mobs start to kite players.
If they could make the AI bait players into impending doom, I would throw my wallet at the screen. I know many would probably throw their keyboard at the screen instead, but I would love it.
That's easy to do, don't need any superior AI to do that. But it all comes down to how hard or dangerous you want the world to be. If the pve content start to mimic players behavior in pvp I don't think it will interest that many people.
- Group of mobs wandering around invisible and attacking only when they have a clear advantage.
- Mobs that take out key players of a group first.
- Mobs scout that sound the horn when they detect a treat heading to their camp, send 15 mounted warrior your way when you get too close.
It's all stuff that is easy to code, but not really likely to be. Simply because most player don't really want challenging content.
What do you think SOE intend to do with their emergent AI about combat ?
Comments
I think it could be something like:
Why would it be delayed? Completely different team (much smaller) working on H1Z1. Companies develop multiple games at a time.
True but - always - there is only so much money. Maybe pursuing H1Z1 now and keeping EQN on the back burner may be seen as a way of lowering their risk exposure. Not saying they are btw!
More likely, imo, they could be waiting on Landmark to run its course - and once Landmark has "launched" the EQL team will ramp down and the EQN team will ramp up. Saying they have two teams doesn't mean two big teams
All I keep thinking is that this game will be a late 2016 release. I'm in the Landmark Beta and I'm just hedging my bets that Next is way down the line.
Plus I'm still putting money aside for a new rig so I definitely want Next to be later than sooner.
Again, that doesn't negate what I already stated. Emergent AI is a buzzword and they could have called it whatever they wanted, but that term is specifically talking about how AI mobs and NPCs in the game are going to act in regards to spawning into the world and traversing the game world based on actions the players have done, or not done.
They could very well incorporate a very robust combat AI, but the Emergent AI system is a different, and far more interesting/game changing system than any enhanced combat AI.
If you took a more complex combat AI system and put it into another game, it would still essentially be the same game with slightly harder/less predictable combat.
The Emergent AI system is on a completely different level. It's a game changing idea that can drastically change the way we play through and explore the world itself. An idea that that hasn't been done by any other game and could be a huge key in making MMO worlds fresh, new and interesting for many years of play even without constant content expansion releases.
So I find it quite the eyesore when people use that term to talk about something as unimpressive as a "decent combat AI".
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Understandable, just some of us are looking forward to "smarter" enemies. Will be great if mobs move around and do stuff more realistically or natural, but when I go to destroy them, hoping the performance continues. We all want the same thing I believe.
Smarter enemies doesn't exactly mean they have to be god like, it really doesn't mean they have to be harder at all really, at least where story bricks comes into play.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am guessing an early access date announced for EQN.
I'm a player and want "smarter" AI. That's my proof.
I play TF2 and late at night/early morning, I'll get to a point where I look at the scoreboard and notice I and a couple others are outnumbered by Bots on both sides. Usually make the comment that I hadn't even noticed. I'll usually then go to sleep because I've probably been up too late or I'll go find a server with actual players. Simply because I like to know I'm winning/losing vs players in that particular game.
I still enjoyed the time before I noticed what was going on. The AI isn't OP where they always win, nor do they always lose. The AI is nothing special at all.
"Players" have never had a chance to experience better AI in a game such as EQN (that I know of). Testing phases or lobby type games with Bots aren't exactly the same as a entire game populated with NPCs.
Do I want to get facerolled by a rabbit? No. But it would be nice to actually feel like I could potentially lose due to the actions/reactions of an enemy and myself. Not simply, oops I didn't move when the dragon blew the fire and I died because it does a billion damage. Even if the AI is the same difficulty but simply acting more organic, I would be happy. Instead of swing swing swing, super swing, swing swing dead. Swing, dodge, cover, super swing, block, heal, swing, dead.
Storybricks and what SOE seem to have cooking appears to be what some of us are looking for. Maybe not everyone knows what they want (yet). They've pointed out that they have to keep it balanced where it is still fun and not too hard, yet still gives the impression that it is really difficult.
With all this said, it is more then possible to have various degrees of difficulty. Maybe the "I don't want hard AI" people stick to Tier 1-2, but those looking for more of a challenge go further. Similar to how high end raiding works. But if they can still provide endless entertainment for all the Tiers, people will continue to play without feeling like they've been shut out because they don't want or can't handle a certain part of the world.
Lots of speculation on my part, but I still hope it will happen.
That's your opinion. Smarter =/= harder to me. A mob simply deciding to run away and find back up would be "smarter" yet isn't posing a harder challenge, at least not until they find back up. Having more variables to work with instead of limited to a very small pool could add to both the smarter/harder potential. The AI isn't going to be hyper realistic, but doesn't mean it can't be some what original and entertaining. A Orc seeing me down the road and deciding if I'm worth attacking or not instead of walking in a circle is "smarter" yet doesn't provide a harder challenge by default.
They are big on "emergent" not "smarter/harder". I'm assuming this means mobs will have weaknesses obvious/not so obvious to the player, just as we will. Instead of players having an unlimited tool set against a sack of HP that just mindlessly swings. Like I said above, I'm doubting a rat will be able to outsmart me (I hope), yet I'm hoping a pack of Orcs don't let me pick them off one by one as I stand 20 ft away in their LOS.
In combat, if mobs are intelligent enough to go after the healer, what stops the mobs from essentially gimping your group by bee-lining for the healer all the time?
Terry Michaels: The AI we are working with Storybricks on has the potential to make many interesting and engaging decisions both in and out of combat. Our goals are to create these syststrongs to promote interesting encounters and interactions and not to “gimp” any particular type of playstyle. You’ll find out more as we continue to announce information about the AI and combat in general. Please stay tuned!
Note that he didn't say mobs will destroy everyone they see because of their super smart AI. Fun factor is key.
actually it makes a lot of sense, you just might have decided to dig your feet in and refuse to look at this logically...Let me try and simplify the whole idea...Lets say I am playing Generic-ThemePark Brand MMO X today, and I am fighting an ogre with VERY low intelligence. Lets also say the Ogre is level 5 and I am level 15. The new AI would allow for the smarter game engine and mechanics to allow that stupid Ogre to say, "Gee me haz friends 10 feet away in camp by fire...I gonnu run there and get dem to helpz meh." His friends are all level 5 or lower, so the fight isn't one bit harder for my level 15 character. But the AI allowed that dumb ogre to play "smarter" if you will and use the tiny brain it has to consider his friends are needed in
this fight
Hope this helps. Again, when you look at how brain dead and stupid mob encounters in MMOs today are, the term "smarter" is to some degree relative to that.
Just a guest from what I have been seeing from twitch Landmark feed and that the EQ Next web page is taking beta sign ups. We might see EQ Next alpha testing for us at the SOE Live doings next month as part of the suprise they have been tesing us with.
I do not see EQ Next going live launch till some time in late 2015.
Again, I'm not rallying against a more realistic combat AI system. I'm just stating that's not what the "Emergent AI" system is. So when I hear people equate combat AI to the proposed "Emergent AI" feature, it bugs me. People are so fixated on "good combat AI" that they don't understand what the Emergent AI system is and why it's such a huge game changer, especially for the MMO genre.
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The "Emergent AI" is the #1 reason I am following EQN. Beyond it, nothing else is that out of the ordinary. I'm just glad that combat is being mixed in to the whole deal instead of having a world full of dynamic NPCs doing stuff, but when I go up to club them over the head they just stand there and take it. Combat is a pretty big deal in a fantasy mmorpg. It shouldn't be the entire focus of a game, but a decent chunk of time is spent going out and tracking down things to kill and it will hopefully be better then what we've come to accept from the genre.
I get what you are saying though. What they are doing (at least what we think they are) should pull the genre forward if done well. "Emergent" is the new buzzword, but it is already being applied to a wide variety of things that might not actually be too next-gen. I'm just going with the mindset that combat and non-combat AI are one and the same. Same as players. I go about my day and may or may not kill things along the way. Hopefully NPCs do the same. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.
Well that's not completely true. You may not care about other aspects of the game as much, but objectively there's a lot of stuff in what the Devs of EQN are proposing that are far from ordinary and in many cases unique, so you can't say "nothing else is out of the ordinary" for the rest of the proposed features.
For example, a true horizontal progression based MMORPG would be something we haven't really seen yet, at least not from a AAA developer, and has massive implications on how players grow their character, interact with the community at large and tackle the game's content given that it will be far more free-roaming than other vertical progression MMORPGs.
A fully destructible voxel based world that procedurely creates content on multiple shifting layers, is also something that we haven't seen yet from a massive AAA MMO.
EQN is also taking a different approach when it comes to traveling. Making the entire game world viable to play in with horizontal progression, along with a focus on ground based travel being a dynamic and fun part of the game play itself, instead of resorting to non-stop fast traveling is another aspect that has not been hit on by many MMORPGs.
So imho there's a lot more to be excited about when it comes to EQN outside of the amazing sounding emergent AI system. But even if you don't find these kinds of features interesting, you cant' say they're "ordinary". They're a clear departure from many MMO conventions that we've seen over the past 15 years.
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I totally agree, I am an EQN fanboi after all
For me though, the AI is #1. All the other elements add up to what is hopefully one if not the best mmorpg experience that I've ever seen/played, but individually I'm not too amazed by any one element. To me, EQN is more a sum of the parts and less about the individual pieces. Except AI. If they had voxels, horizontal progression, more "sandbox" features, etc awesome, but without the AI, to me it would be more of a next step in the current gen and not pulling forward into next-gen territory. Everything together is what can really make EQN stand out and get other companies go along the same path.
I'm looking forward to every single aspect, but AI is what I'm most hyped about.
Maybe it was a bad adjective to use, maybe diverse-dynamic-engaging, yadda yadda would be better. My bad.
Or maybe it's just semantics. To me it sounds like we'll perceive the AI as being "smarter" but it is still just game AI and not going to be overthrowing players and taking over the game.
Like I said though, with the Tier system and procedurally generated content, it is possible to include a scale of "difficulty/challenge" along with the more engaging "fun" AI. Instead of mobs simply having more HP-DMG, they could have more tools and ways to use them. 100% of players might not want "smater/harder" content, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of us out there that do. I enjoy dying, getting frustrated, and having to solve a problem. Steam rolling content is not my idea of fun. If they can balance it out, we all win.
The Emergent AI, as in the system that will spawn creatures into certain areas and direct how they roam the world or take up camp in an area, based on player actions or inaction, is the most next-gen feature they've announced that they were working on.
A completely voxel based destructible world is the next largest next-gen feature they've announced.
Even if they make a semi-decent Combat AI system that reacts differently based on the player group makeup, runs for help when they're out numbered or dying, switches targets based on smart tactical decisions coded in (Switch to attack healers and ignoring low damage tanks for example, like a pvper would), all this would be last-gen.
A lot of games have AI that meets or exceeds what I just laid out, for some time now too. It wouldn't be next gen at all.
Again, combat AI is important, but it's not what makes a game stand the test of time, nor would an above average combat AI be anywhere near as impressive as all the other features they're pushing in EQN.
"Super Metroid" and "A Link to the Past" have some of the most basic and simple combat AI systems you could think of, but they're timeless classics that are still great fun to play even 2 decades later. The AI in the original EQ was substandard, even for the time it released.
People who think great combat AI is the most important feature for a great game are sorely mistaken, as proven by decades of video game releases.
I'm not against them putting a lot of work into a robust combat AI, in fact I hope they do. But to suggest that it would be the thing that makes EQN great, or something that could be considered "next gen" is very incorrect.
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Nor does it support. That link to the interview shows its more then just spawn and interaction. It also covers NPC combat and tactics. Whats the point of having a new AI that covers how a NPC interacts with you and the land it lives in if it does nothing with combat? Its not only needed but expected. The quote you replied to shows very clearly that not only does it cover what you are saying, but its even more then that.
Gonna be a lot of fun when mobs start to kite players.
Honestly not sure what you are going on about. Appears you have your definition of what "emergent AI" is, but it doesn't seem to match what the people making EQN are saying.
What line, if any, is drawn between interaction between “Human” NPCs such as guards, merchants, etc and “Monster” NPCs, and what distinctions can be made between interaction between these two groups other than initial “kill on sight” status with the player? Can players in essence abandon the entire world of human NPCs in favor of “going native” among monster NPCs?
Storybricks: We’re not going to talk about design specifics for EverQuest Next. However, we can say that we are creating a unified AI architecture for combat and non-combat behaviors, which means that NPCs inside combat could potentially have a much greater range of reactions to PCs than just “kill on sight” (and a lot more varied goals, as explained in the presentation of rallying calls) and vice-versa: NPCs’ daily lives could be affected by the potential occurence of combat, either as a threat or a goal.
Storybricks is working with SOE on both parts of AI as one or maybe 2 sides of a coin. I don't believe they've said these systems are completely different or function so differently at any point.
You want "emergent" roaming NPCs, I want that plus "emergent" combat. I can only speak for myself, but don't really see many saying combat AI is #1. The AI is #1 for me, which I believe also includes combat. Remove the AI and with all the other stuff EQN is hyping, it would just be another game, a better game, but still just another on the list.
The AI, from NPCs walking around in the city, Orcs gathering to raid a village, and how those same Orcs respond when I say "oh no you don't" are what I'm really excited about. It's great that they are also tossing in voxels, horizontal progress, and an open world. Finally a company is going all out and not just focusing on one system to impress, they are trying to blow everything else out of the water with their fully loaded game.
Again, I pretty much am right there with you and want what you do. Maybe I'm just looking at it differently or have different definitions of all these fun buzzwords.
If they could make the AI bait players into impending doom, I would throw my wallet at the screen. I know many would probably throw their keyboard at the screen instead, but I would love it.
That's easy to do, don't need any superior AI to do that. But it all comes down to how hard or dangerous you want the world to be. If the pve content start to mimic players behavior in pvp I don't think it will interest that many people.
- Group of mobs wandering around invisible and attacking only when they have a clear advantage.
- Mobs that take out key players of a group first.
- Mobs scout that sound the horn when they detect a treat heading to their camp, send 15 mounted warrior your way when you get too close.
It's all stuff that is easy to code, but not really likely to be. Simply because most player don't really want challenging content.
What do you think SOE intend to do with their emergent AI about combat ?